Are we to hate for the sake of Christ?
 

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So what can you say about this verse? I am figuring what this verse means. Do I need to hate everybody for the sake of Christ? In the other thread, someone suggested that I need not twist English. I know you Englishpeople/brethren alike, would you please tell me if hate/hatred needed to grow me spiritually?

I believe that as the commandment is to "honor thy father and thy mother," this translation is in error. It is better phrased in.....

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

We are to love and honor our family but....He must come first. We may well be required to leave our family for His sake. Is that physically or emotionally or both? If your family goes in a direction you know is wrong you cannot follow.

Of course not. Love is the clearest evidence of a changed heart and mark of true discipleship, brother.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This is the APPLICATION we can make to ourselves. By comparing scripture with scripture we know for an absolute fact that hating your father, mother, wife, children, brethren, sister, and yes, even yourself is not the desire of Christ.

But there is a very clear and strong message to all who desire to love and follow Christ. Our devotion and love for the Lord Jesus Christ should be so great and superior that compared to all others and even to our self it would be hatred. The point is that Jesus Christ is preeminent in all things and He should be loved first and last. The interesting thing is that when we love Jesus Christ with our whole heart we keep his commands...like love one another as He has loved us.

Luke 14:26-27 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Fredoheaven that is an excellent question.

I think Forrest is correct,
it is a comparative statement and I like the way he phrased it...

"Our devotion and love for the Lord Jesus Christ should be so great and superior that compared to all others and even to our self it would be hatred."

I would have to disagree with Whirlwind, I do not see the word HATE as an ERROR, as I do not think we have errors in our inerrant Bible. So that means I have to adjust my thinking to the Word of God and accept is exactly as it is written. I think if a man chooses to truly follow Christ in discipleship, that man must reach a moment when his family, his father, his mother, his friends all become less than Christ. This is not an easy thing to do, but it allows our entire focus to be on Christ and at that moment Jesus becomes EVERYTHING. The entire world becomes NOTHING, least of all a friend.

This is a hard line to draw, but James challenges the sinners in his day by asking them...

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the ENEMY OF GOD."- James 4:4

Let's also remember that not all families and peer groups are supportive of Christianity. Many times young Christians will be openly attacked by family members and friends, who attempt to drag them back into the world and the patterns of flesh they came from. This can take many forms. For example, it could be an older brother, or perhaps a sister in law who is trying to force the new believer to smoke cigarettes and drink alchohol like the "old days." For a young woman, it could be an old boyfriend or lover who is trying to keep her out of church or Bible study for his own selfish reasons. It could be a family member who is wrapped up in the stench of Islam or maybe a cult like the Mormons or JW's, and hates the idea of their child taking a different path of doctrine.

But at that moment the disciple of Christ has to make a decision;
CHRIST OR OTHERS. This does not mean we are not to honor our parents, and it doesn't mean we are to seek trouble. But sooner or later we will have to make a decision to allow Christ to become the pinnacle in our life. At that moment your decision to stand for Christ can split your family wide open and CHALLENGE ANY RELATIONSHIP YOU HAVE ON EARTH. This can result in bad feelings, and I have seen men throwing furniture around, mothers screaming at sons, and sisters screaming about the new "Jesus freak." In many cases this trouble does not last, and the Christian is eventually accepted along with the new lifestyle adjustments, but it can get rough in the beginning. That's why Jesus said...

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." - Matt. 10:34-35

Whirly's quote: I believe that as the commandment is to "honor thy father and thy mother," this translation is in error. It is better phrased in...

are you denying the inerrancy or the KJV Bible?

You, like the deceived Eve have just changed the Word of God

If so why are you on this site. We all believe the KJV Bible has no errors

I think the meaning of "hate" in this context is to love less than or have less esteem for relative to something else.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

Alternately,

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary [A-J]
hate
HATE, v.t. L. odi, for hodi.

1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.

How long will fools hate knowledge? Prov.1.

Blessed are ye when men shall hate you. Luke 6.

The Roman tyrant was contented to be hated, if he was but feared.

2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

If any man come to me, and hate not father and mother, &c. Luke 14.

He that spareth the rod, hateth his son. Prov. 13.

HATE, n. Great dislike or aversion; hatred.

Brother, no doubt you are offended at me for telling you that you can't retranslate Acts 2:38 to fit a denominational doctrinal error, but as can be spiritually discerned from this passage in Luke 14, friendship, or sound doctrine?

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Note the past tense(Time past) of verse 8, and the present tense (But now)of verse 16, and also the last passage of verse 8(Ages to come), the confirmation of the promises given to the Jewish fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These promises are yet future, as national Israel has not accepted Christ and won;t until Christ Himself personally establishes His Kingship of Israel at the beginning of the Millenium. Luke 14 is a chapter filled with works, and doctrinally applied to OT Jews in Israel under the Law and on the verge of the Tribulation of Joel 2, then restoration of Israel, and the Second Coming of Christ. There is no mention of the Body of Christ anywhere in Luke, Matthew, Mark, or John for that matter. This is all pre-crucifixion doctrine to Israel. I'm in no way part or parcel of Israel, I am a spiritual son of Abraham, I am an adopted son of God. In the gospel of Christ, the preaching of the cross, Christ crucified, salvation by grace through faith of I Cor. 15, Eph 2 and 3, I can find nowhere in Christ's message to me through Paul where I am commanded to hate anybody. In the Age of grace it's the Christian who is hated. It's the Christian who leaves Mormonism, Catholicism, the JWs, the Church of Christ, the Worldwide Church Of God, Christian Science, or any cult you want to name, and has to endure being shunned by his or her own family, not the other way around. After I debated two COC "elders" each and every one of my Dad's family threw me away like a live hand grenade. Those in my mother's family who make a claim to be Christian moan the fact I only have "part" of the gospel and not this mythical "full" gospel I can't find anywhere.

Rejoice brother Fred, you don;t have to "hate" anybody, you are only asked to be a soldier for Christ, an ambassador for Christ, a minister of the reconciliation to wit that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not remitting their sins unto them, nor ours to us.

Isn't the grace of God a wonderful thing brother?

Grace and peace to you

Tony

My friend, I think perhaps you might be in the wrong forum, for one thing, you are not qualified to correct the Scriptures based on your own private interpretations.

Jud 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes..

Grace and peace

Tony

I must agree....I am not qualified nor would I attempt to correct Scripture. For that reason I quoted another Scripture that gave the meaning to that same verse. I wasn't aware of any private interpretation being given. :confused:.

If you believe our Father wants us to HATE our mother and father then okay....but I would ask you to reconsider....

Proverbs 23:22 Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, And despise not thy mother when she is old.

Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother:' and, 'He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.'

Just an FYI, Bible correcting is not permitted and will result in a ban. It's one thing to ask a question about a translation in the Bible versions section of the forum, but calling the text of Scripture "in error" in a Bible study thread is not permitted.

Tony is on to the correct answer of the OP's question. The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.

The command to hate as given by Christ was to those who were to take up their crosses and follow him - no matter what.

Luke 14:26-27
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Read the verses carefully, there's alot of conditions given. The context is absolutely who will be Christ's disciples and who will not. It's not a statement of "I need disciples", but rather, "the road ahead is going to get rough, any takers?"

Later in Luke he gives the same men another exhortation. It is important to notice the strong tribulation context in the chapter (before and after the verses quoted below). It shows you Christ is "fitting" his men for the worst, and giving them doctrine for their salvation as well.

Luke 21:16-19
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the word "patience" directed to the disciples possessing their souls. If you want to do some studying on this, run the word in the latter books of the NT. Patience is a "must have" during the tribulation.

Back to the topic, the command in Luke 14 is a prerequisite to following Christ to the death. Luke 21 compliments the earlier command with the charge of "you will be put to death" with consent of those very family members, friends, etc.

Someone said the command to hate is comparative. This would line up with an OT passage in Gen. 29:30-31:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

So the "hate" is actually in comparison to the larger amount of love given to another.

I would say this is a good answer to the OP, yet I'm certain Christ had something else in mind (future) when he called his disciples with such conditions.

Finally, you and I are NOT Christ's disciples preparing to endure through a furious tribulation. We are not hated of all men for his name's sake etc. and the direct command does not apply to us.

Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Interesting…so is this command limited in application specifically to the “great multitude with him” whom had an opportunity to become His disciple and no application can be made to us today? The words “any man come to me” refer to whom? Do they only refer to any man who was in that specific multitude? Or are we [today] also a disciple of Christ through belief in Him, and therefore, should follow Him even if it calls for “hating” father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? Is there an application to be made for us today? If so, what is it?

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

Personally, I believe my specific call at this point in my life is to edify the body of Christ by directing them to know, love, and follow Him. I never want to make an application that twists, bends, changes, or altars God’s word in order to do that. It’s encouraging to me that the Bible believing participants on this Forum have their own God given gift and style of teaching. I’ve benefited greatly.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Forrest, the gist of my response is that do we follow Christ's message strictly to Israel during His earthly ministry to them("times past") or do we follow His meesage to us today("but now") through Paul? The greatest confusion among Christianity today, let alone many of us on this forum, is trying to wad the two messages together as applicable for today. That's what every Catholic on the planet is taught to do and the confusion is why so few of them pay any attention to the Scriptures. With right division you get sound doctrine, without right division you get Roman Catholicism..

The doctrine of Christ dying, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty is found right in Genesis 3, in the innocent animals dying to "cover" Adam and Eve. There is doctrine in Leviticus 5, but where do I take my sin offering if it's applicable for today? Same with Luke 14. I'm not commanded to "hate" anything today, nor am I to turn on my family as a Christian. They will turn on you. The context and application of Luke 14 is disparate people on the verge of desperate times. Yes, I am saved and love Christ, He lives in me, I am in no manner to abandon a sick wife and run off to the Congo to fulfill the "Great Commission".

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Greetings brother Tony. No doubt and I'm with you on your above thoughts. I loathe harmonizing when we should divide.

Do you think Jesus was actually telling the multitude that the requirement to be His disciple was to HATE his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? If not, what is He teaching them?

Thanks to all of you who positively responded to this thread. I am learning...thanks to Bro. Parrish, Bro. Forrest, Ma'am Greenbear, pbiwolski, to Sir Chette, Sir Brandon and to Bro. Tony.:):):) love :pizza: and:popcorn: I'll be glad to share it with you all. God bless...

Thanks,

Grace, mercy and peace...

Bro. FredLLangit

My pleasure Fred, may God grant us all His wisdom as we seek His truth on difficult passages. :)

Sir, thank you for this post, I soon realized that this is happening even in our local church. Many of our young people have been hindered by their parents or older brother or sister. They don't want them attend Bible Studies and exactly, new believers attending our church with "unwin" boyfriend were the ones stopping them to be invovled in our church ministry. Bro. please pray for the work here in the Philippines.

Here is a link for an interesting work here in the Philippines. The work is started by Pastor Ed Laurena, the brother of our sending pastor Ptr. Gil Laurena. Hope you will be blessed.

http://www.cbbcphilippines.org/

A General rule of thumb is if Christ teaching agrees with Paul's, the Apostle to the Gentile, the Apostle of the Gospel of Grace, then it is a teaching for the Body of Christ.

My pleasure Fred, will pray for that situation.
Thanks for the link, that's a beautiful website.

That's a good idea. A better one is to understand the literal application before making the practical. You'll not be tempted to misapply something when the first things are first.

Everyone preaches on "taking up your cross" and "counting the cost" from Luke 14. That's good preaching when applied spiritually to believers today. There's really no question about that. The problem was the word "hate", and I believe that a sound Bible answers to that question have been given sufficiently by now.

So True PBI

My friend, consider:

Ro 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The OT is holy Scripture as much as any other. I've made a study of Lev. 5, though it does not apply to me(Christ is our sin offering)there is much of a spiritual nature to be learned, as I just cited. What is a sin offering? We must first know what it is, then we can see that now Jesus Christ has been offered up as our sin offering.

Another good set of passages to study, with application to disobeying the authority of God, which is found in the Scriptures:

Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Jud 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

This is why we have over 200 "versions of the "bible" in English, and we have several for particular sects of heresy:

NWT- Watchtower
Concordant Literal Version- Unitarian Universalists
New Century Version- Church Of Christ

Hey, go to Burger King, order a bun with nothing between it, that's what you want, they'll sell it to you. Their motto: Have It Your Way. We have Burger Kings Jesus, Burger King "bibles". I've seen Gloria Copeland on TV, with 5 "versions" on a podium, she cherry-picked the version that supported what she wanted to say.

I've not made a study of the spiritual significance of Luke 14, only that I am commanded to "hate" no one.

Grace and peace

Tony

I'm confused why that post was directed to me. :confused:

...and I backed you up on that.

I was not directing anything against you, just adding fuel to the fire my friend, by nailing down, or attempting to in an understandable manner, the passages in the OT that had a doctrinal application in Time Past to Israel, and our use of them today. We initiate threads in this forum, and respond to many of other's, but we are not the only ones who read them. I was just making additional commentary to what we all have been doing regarding the passage in Luke.

Grace and peace

Tony