No man has freewill to come to Jesus
 

The untruth of today is that man has a freewill to choose christ, but Jesus himself says mans will is not free..

Jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To come means to believe in Him for salvation.

Jesus says no man can or has the ability to believe in me, only if the father grants them that privilege..

paul says the same thing about having been given the right to believe in christ..


phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

To some Jesus says they cannot believe..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Why not rip more verses out of context and set the Bible against itself. The Bible makes it very clear that God gives us a choice - and most choose to reject Him and His Word, His salvation, etc.

Deuteronomy 1:25-26 And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and brought it down unto us, and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the LORD our God doth give us. Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deuteronomy 1:42-43 And the LORD said unto me, Say unto them, Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies. So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deuteronomy 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There are other passages too.

This verse in particular demolishes the system of Calvinism. In one verse we have God's will -- "how often would I have gathered" -- contrasted with man's will -- "ye would not" -- proving once and for all that God does allow man's will to contravene his own will on matters like these. So much for irresistible grace! The truth is that it is in fact God's will that man has a freedom of choice to obey or disobey.

None of those references says man has a freewill.. You cannot make scriptures contradict the saviour says no man can come to me! That does away with freewill, sorry..

man cannot believe unless God grants it..

jn 12:

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Jesus on many occasions has used a paradox to explain a truth. To say you can't believe unless God grants it is correct, but not as extremely as you are explaining it. Jesus said in John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
But people "do things" all the time.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

To say everything we do is pre-determined isn't Biblically correct. What is more correct is God knows in advance what we will do, according to foreknowledge. So, the following verse tempers the apparent paradox. Calvin didn't see it going by his teachings.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Because of the hardness of their hearts they could not believe. It was a lack of ability because of how stubborn they were, not because God wouldn't allow it. Just like when God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart, he did it with conviction.

He means what he says, why do you disagree with Jesus sir and change what he says ?

The bible says man cannot come to Jesus , that eliminates freewill..

Jn 6:

44

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


It takes an inward power from the Holy Spirit, so that means one has to be first born again from above before they can come to Jesus..

For you to harp on freewill is against christ teachings sir..dont run from the truth of jesus bow to it ..

It is not Jesus' teachings we have a problem with - it is yours. You keep ripping verses out of context. This verse goes with the one you just quoted:

John 12:32-33 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The Holy Spirit will draw all men unto Jesus because Jesus has already died.

It is Jesus teaching you have a problem with..

a man does not have a freewill..if he had a freewill why would he need to be drawn ? Why not come on his own freewill ? duh..

all types and races of men are drawn by the power of his death, are you saying that all those being drawn by the power of the cross are not saved by it ?

You tell me - the passage quite clearly states God will draw all men unto Him through Christ's death. If you reject that, you are rejecting God's Word itself. The only thing debatable here is HOW He is drawing people to Himself.

No freewill - then you are a robot who has no mind of his own; therefore your non-freewill thoughts are worthless in reasoning out Biblical issues. Better to stick with the Bible than your faulty understanding!

No freewill - hm, what about this:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And this:

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

And this:

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Another offer to everyone:

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

And another one:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Oh no, the Holy Spirit is convicting the WORLD of sin and their need for the Saviour - but no one has a free will to respond to the Gospel (according to you):

John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What you are advocating is that the drawing power of the cross bears no fruit unless mans decides..

Thats a abomination..The drawing of men to christ is the actual conversion of them to christ..like saul who became paul..The drawing is effectual, but you deny this jerry..

I say all men who are drawn to christ are converted to christ, we are his fruit of his death..coming, being drawed , believing are all the same..

I agree with God, no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

God draws all men to Himself, some receive the wonderful gift of salvation and many reject this wonderful gift.

The verse I quoted said God was going to draw ALL men to Himself - so it is not my theology that contradicts the Bible. Blasphemy is speaking against God or claiming to be God when you are not, not having wrong theology.

You dont understand the verse #1 and then you still have not answered my question..why does he draw men to him if they have freewill ?

The verse still conradicts freewill..if he draws men to him..

Beloved57,

A logical question is how does a person know he is being drawn according to your theology? Another logical question would be if, because we disagree with you, do you believe we aren't truly drawn, and, therefore, not really saved?

Having the freewill to make a choice doesn't mean God didn't do the work to enlighten us to make that choice. The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and unrighteousness and need for the Saviour - but man is still given the freewill to choose to accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ and His salvation - which I have shown in various passages.

If drawing in itself meant they would be saved (according to your theology), then everyone would be saved - because Jesus said if He was crucified He would draw all men unto Himself. I believe it means that He would give everyone an opportunity to hear the Gospel and have the choice to be saved.

But a man does not have a freewill to come to jesus to make any choice thats ludacris..

God has to choose thats scriptural..

ps 65:

4Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Duh you got it backwards good buddy..lol..

The choice is made when God chooses one to come..

The drawing is when one is born from above..

No sir, I dont believe you are a believer in the true christ..

Thats because one is born again when the spirit does that..

All that have been drawn are saved..all men drawn to me does not mean every individual but all from different classes and races..


The scripture says all that are drawn are eternally secure..

jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Thats because coming means they have been saved, thats why they come..

Amen!! I praise the Lord for His conviction and His light and His drawing!!!

Apparently we are a limited group!

apparently you praise yourself if it the conviction and drawing did not save you..??

What is "duh" and "lol" all about? Sounds a bit obnoxious.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...

BTW: There are 1595 "if"'s in the Holy Bible. It sure sounds like we have a choice. I've chosen to receive Jesus Christ. Therefore I'm a saved, born again, regenerated, consecrate, blood washed, Spirit filled, sanctified child of the King.

Duh where does paul say he had a choice ? Any spiritually discerning person knows that paul did not make a choice on the road of damascus..

acts 9:

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

Paul says he recieved because it was given to him revealed to him

gal 1:

16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

paul does not teach that freewill garbage, he says he was saved by Gods will

gal 1:

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Not mans freewill decesion..

Your whole argument has been mancentered and man glorifying..you are a servant of men not christ sir..

Man - you have got to be one of the most insulting people I have met on a message board in a long time. How about some common courtesy, regardless of where you differ from others here?

oh but its ok to insult God with all this freewill stuff, when its an insult to His greatness..

To insult christ by saying in and of itself his death saves no one..

To insult the holy ghost in saying man has freewill and disregard the fact that man is spiritually dead until His Mighty work is done..

Just some scriptures which I believe show that God gives us choice as to whether to follow Him or the enemy.

Deuteronomy 30: 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Proverbs 1: 29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Proverbs 3: 31Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Proverbs 8: 10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. [Here obviously he is being instructed to follow truth rather than the ways of the world...hence there is a choice.]

Isaiah 28: 12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. [If the people did not have the choice whether to listen or not why would God send His prophets to teach and exhort? Why would God waste His time? God never wastes His time, it's impossible.]

Jeremiah 17: 23But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction. [Obedience denotes a choice.]

Zechariah 1: 4Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.

Matthew 24: 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [The goodman of the house obviously had the choice whether to watch for the Lord or not.]

John 11: 40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? [Belief or non-belief is a choice, if it weren't a choice would Jesus not have said: I told you that WHEN you believed you should see the glory of God].

Acts 17: 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: [Seeking the Lord is a choice...why seek what we already have, why feel after something we already have?]

Acts 28: 24And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

These are just some scriptures for consideration.

Blessings.

This is another Calvinism-destroying verse. People keep saying there are "paradoxes" about predestination in the Bible. There are none. Calvin was wrong and so was Arminius. The above verse clearly explains the sequence of events with a hardening heart. God offers to all, but when people reject, they are given over to their reprobate mind, as is explained in Romans 1:28. "While he may be found." What does that mean in a Calvinist system where God can never be found? It's yet another verse, like Revelation 22:17, that Calvinism makes void and meaningless.

This was the turning point for me away from Calvinism. I got tired of trying to explain away invitations by God to obey and freely come. Calvinism makes those invitations utterly meaningless and totally disingenuous. We're supposed to believe the words of God, not pretend they have no meaning.

beloved57: Please read the forum faq. By any reasonable definition, your silly personal attacks and namecalling is obnoxious behavior. If you would like to keep posting, behave yourself. First and final warning.

Too bad you are taking this out of context, for it only applied to Gods covenant people at the time..Israel..

Even then it was limited in scope, for it did not even applie to the surronding nations..

In its spiritual application it would apply to only the elect, and even still more, this does not imply or teach mans will is free..

It obviously doesn't apply to the saved - it is an invitation to salvation. God is calling the lost to repent and come to Him.

Only the saved are call to repent because it has been granted to them from their saviour..


acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Also peter is preaching particular redemption or limited atonement..

You must have missed a few passages then.

Here's a couple:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Perish means to go to hell - these were people who were lost and on their way to hell.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hm, they were wondering how to be saved - that tells me they were lost, as the passage indicates.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God wants all mankind to repent.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

God wants the Gentiles to repent and turn to God - ie. they were not saved yet.

There are many others.

"If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." Ex 21

This is a picture of our free will. God does not coerce our will and does not want unwilling folks. God gives us the will to choose. What love would that be to serve unwillingly? It is unloved, not beloved 57.

I agree - that pictures freewill in service though, not in salvation.

Its to bad you cant find that stated in the bible...

on the day of pentecost you erronously add your faulty interpretation, peter did not say that God desires all mankind to repent, in fact, peter taught a limited particular atonement, for peter did not even understand when he preached this sermon that the gentiles too were a chosen people of God..He came to that understanding in acts 10..

So you show your ignorance of scripture here in bringing up acts 2.

He peter was addressing the house of Israel

acts 2:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The repentance was from the partaking of putting to death the Lord Jesus christ,,

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Peter seen already they had been granted the gift of repentance, he just further instructed them..

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

peter knew that these men were convicted by the holy ghost as jesus promised he would do to the elect church..jn 16:

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

he convicted those jews there on pentecost because of their past unbelief and putting him to death. That also means that the elect are delivered from unbelief by the mighty working of the spirit of God..

peter also clearly designated that this salvation is toward only a called people, not all mankind like you so falsely impose with your false teaching..

acts 2:

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

so dont try and run to peter on acts 2 to help promote your lies..

repentance is a gift to a chosen people from their saviour..

acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

I guess this verse doesn't teach what it says - hm, guess you can't figure out what it means then...

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

lol you dont know the bible man..you ignore all the good teaching i give you, which indicates you may not be an elect..

You still haven't proved to me that you are one of the elect. All the good teaching? A little bit high on yourself...:rolleyes: