For Pentecostals Only (Hopefully)
 

I've tried to have discussions on other threads and the minute it is discovered I'm a Pentecostal, I feel like a Gazelle in the midst of hungry coyotes. I don't think I'm alone here. My hopes are, on this thread, to have a Pentecostal-friendly place to discuss the issue of the King James Bible.

If the fact we are Pentecostal, Born again Christians bothers you, don't forget there are many other threads in this forum.

And please don't forget that none of the 'threads' are locked to anyone in particular. Anyone is welcome to participate in any thread.

I once had a Pentecostal brother pastor who traveled to seminary with several of us Baptists. The trip was 2 or 3 days a week, 90 minutes each way. Many times the conversation was centered around eternal security, because that was the most important issue. The gifts of the Spirit were rarely discussed because that issue paled in comparison.

One day, this brother made a revealing statement. It went something like this, "Personally I believe that a Christian cannot lose his salvation, but I can't preach that from my pulpit or I would lose control of my people's behavior." We did not discuss the issue much after that.

Don't picture us as "hungry coyotes", instead think of us as faithful sheepdogs being used by the Shepherd to guide you into the place that He wants you to be. ;)

With my love,

what do you mean by red lettered stuffs above?
By the way I'm Christian period!:D

Dear Diligent, I know and accept that. I was looking for a way to cut down on the arguing. I thank you for a place to have these discussions.

Brother Tim, I don't see you as "faithful sheepdogs being used by the Shepherd to guide you into the place that He wants you to be" at least directly, because I don't believe I'm in error with regards to my believe in eternal security or the gifts of the Holy Ghost. In the context of "iron sharpening iron", then I see you as "faithful sheepdogs being used by the Shepherd to guide you into the place that He wants you to be". Because I believe Baptist Doctrine is in error on those 2 particular issues.

evstevemd, I'm referring to the fact that in several threads where I expressed the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today and I don't take the extreme view of eternal security and all the "Baptists (not sure if they were all Baptists, just held the Baptist view on those issues)" thought it necessary to "fix my error" and the discussion got "far away" from the thread-topic. I really don't want that to happen in this thread. I was hoping to have a discussion about the authorized 1611 Bible.

Like, I had heard that there was some kind of scandal or something about the NKJV and Thomas Nelson and I can't seem to get any information about such a thing. I was hoping someone here could tell me one way or another.

Hi, Here's some information from this site about the NKJV. I needed to be set free of it too.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/reynolds-nkjv.html

Guys,

We need to address the Pentecostal issue.

Is this a cult?

1. Loss of salvation.

2. Keeping salvation via good works.

3. Authority beyond the Bible, words of knowledge and all of that crap.

4. Slaying in the Spirit.

5. This laughing deal going on nowadays.

6. Prayer clothes and other such crap.

7. Blowing on people then they fall down.

8. Advanced revelation from God.

9. The final authority may not be the Bible.

10 Emotion based services and experiences.

I am not saying the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is a cult but it is looking more and more like a cult everyday.

What do you guys think? Is it a cult?


Atlas

Loss of salvation- Yes through sinning and not repenting!

Keeping salvation via good works - No! through helper and comforter, the Holy Spirit of God. we exercise our faith, under grace of God. Works are the fruits and not source neither what keep us.Grace of God teaches us to shun and run away from evil. So we exercise our faith to manifest what already have been done by the Lord in us. Just we need to be obedient to God's word and His Holy Spirit!

Authority beyond the Bible, words of knowledge and all of that crap. No! No Authority beyond the Bible. Bible authority is Final. God respect His word and Have Magnified Him Above all things. Holy Spirit tells us what Jesus Hears from the father, and does not contradict with Jesus' word! That means All gifts operate in Line NOT in contrary to the God's word. This Includes Gift of word of Knowledge!!! Hope it Helps

I will post scripture later! Now I have something else to do!

Your fellow servant,
Ev. Steve:p

evstevemd,

Thanks for your reply. I also want to see the slaying in the Spirit and selling prayer clothes deal. Many of today's Pentecostal/Charismatic movement are getting close to becoming a cult. Now some of the old style Pentecostals are not as bad as some of the new ones. So I do not think they are a cult.



Atlas

Hey atlas, cut your afterburners. This is a thread to discuss the KJV. Let's get back on track. Does anyone know about the scandale with Nelson Pub. and the NKJV? There are other threads to discuss eternal security and the gifts of the Spirit issue.

Revangelist, could you elaborate a little more on what you have heard about a scandal? Nelson produces the NKJV, and that is scandal enough for me, but I imagine that you are meaning something else.

Yes...I got a newsletter from Gail Riplinger's site and she had an article about the NKJV and said that the Nelson Pub. Company was caught in some kind of scandal concerning the NKJV. I tried to find out from Riplinger's site and I didn't get an answer. So, I was hoping someone here might have some knowledge about such a thing.

Great! I think I might appreciate this thread a little more. I hate for there to be hostilities because of differences. Anyhow, one scandal happened because either the NRSV or the RSV was also published by Nelson publishing company and took a diametrically opposed stance in marketing it that with the NKJV. It seems they were creating a controversy between those two translations and doing it for financial reasons. However, I'm not positive. Has anyone else heard this?

I haven't heard this - however, it is no surprise considering that Thomas Nelson was a Catholic - and the RC church historically has sought to either withhold the Bible from the common man, or cast doubt upon its text (indicating that they must be the final authority, rather than the Bible). We can see this in the footnotes of the NKJV - and even in the footnotes and cross-references of some KJVs put out by Nelson. Just recently I came across an explanatory footnote (with some cross references) that actually set the Bible at odds with itself. (I can post that if anyone is interested, but didn't want to go offtopic here.)

If the devil can't stop us from reading the Bible, and can't convince us to accept the modern versions and their compromise of the NKJV, then he will just cast doubt on the Bible text itself. An old trick that is working around the world.

Thomas Nelson was a Scotsman originally printing Puritan writers: are you sure he was Catholic?

This is from their website:

Covenanters were a kind of Puritan.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...its probably a duck.

The closest to being a cult are the sub group that declares no salvation for those who dont speak in tongues.

Only last week one of the newly saved Christians in our church was told by a tongue speaking workmate, using Mark 16 as a reference, that he wasnt saved because he didnt have the "gift" of tongues. 5 minutes with the Bible soon put his mind at ease.

Fundy

fundy,

That is a cult. The old style Pentecostals are not like this new bunch I have seen lately.

Atlas

Jerry, there are two Thomas Nelsons. One was a Catholic who owns the Catholic publishing house Tan Books located in Rockford, Illinois.

Thomas Nelson Publishers prints a KJB and puts there NKJV variants as "translations" in the margins. I've found this a bit upsetting. There are similarities between the KJB and the NKJV. And that is why I think it is more "dangerous" than the other new versions. Many people have gone to the NKJV thinking it is a King James Bible only "easier to read".

I'm very thankful to God for the KJB. An added benefit for me was the fact that because of reading it, I went from a 4th grade reading level when I graduated high-school to a college reading level within a few years of reading it. That's on top of the Spiritual growth. So that is "Blessing al a mode".

Ev. Steve, Do you support talking in tongues? YES.
Does it mean you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues? NO
So then what? :confused:
Both are Biblical, but don't confuse them please! Check what God says below!

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ev. Steve :p

For Atlas:
The Assemblies of God, The Church of God and the Pentecostal Church of God do not teach speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation (there are others, but I know those 3 don't). Also, the Pentecostal Churches that do teach tongues is necessary tend to also believe in Baptismal Regeneration and a form of Modalism (Jesus Only). The above mentioned denominations are totally in agreement with the fundamentals of the faith. As a matter of fact, there are only to major areas of contention between Baptists and those 3 Pentecostal denominations: tongues and eternal security. But, I know there are at least 2 or 3 other threads that are discussing those issues. So, back to the topic at hand:

Pastor Mikie is correct. Not only does Nelson Publishing put in "Alexandrian" renderings in their margins, so do a number of others. You also have to watch out for parallel Bibles with the KJV as one of the versions. I got one hoping to be better armed but found the KJV was the 1873 "Paragraph Version" where one of the translators of the RV of 1881 had made changes to the text. Like Hebrews 10:23, "Faith" is changed to "hope".

For those who aren't Pentecostals on this thread, would you be happier if we Pentecostals didn't participate in the discussions on this forum?

It's Brandon's website and he has welcomed you here. Because I do not agree with Pentecostal theology, when it comes up I refute it. I pray the Lord gives me enough wisdom to know when to let something go, and not be argumentative just for the sake of being so (ie. in the sense of addressing every little disagreement) - of which I know I have failed in the past. Several people have asked to be able to address these issues without bringing up Pentecostal doctrine or practices - I agree we can have much better fellowship if we focus on areas other than that. (I am not saying to compromise - but we have stated where we each stand, and to keep debating those issues is not helping either side - it doesn't look like either side plans on changing their theology.)

Why do you worry? This is a very open forum. I am not a Pentecostal, but this is "my" forum, and obviously I am not trying to squash discussion of related doctrine. You should not be worried about other people not "wanting" you here. This forum does not belong to a collective. But by the same token, you should not act as though you are offended when other people try to rebuke what they see as false doctrine.

The people who have taken the time to point out the errors of Pentecostal doctrine have done so because they care for the Truth and are not afraid to contend for it. They are not worried about being shunned by a collective, and you shouldn't be, either.

Just my opinion. :)

I for one do not object to Pentacostals being on this Forum - especially if they can expound their point of view with scripture (which you have ably done) without getting offended.

I stayed out of "the fray" on the debate on "eternal security", because I have observed that once a person embraces a belief, it is very difficult to "talk them out of it" - they become committed. However, on March 21 I posted an answer (or a challenge) for you to back up your claim: "For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it."

Years ago (right after "Diligent" [Brandon] produced his 1st Swordsearcher) I made a search of the scriptures seeking out as many verses on salvation as I could find (and with the least amount of personal bias that I could muster, since I also believe in the "preservation of the saints"). I have that list of verses (which equals approximately 18 type written pages) on my web site.

What I discovered was that 15 of those pages indicated that you can't lose it - 3 of those pages indicate that you can! [I found approximately 357 verses in support of the "preservation of the saints" as against approximately 38 verses that indicates that a person "can lose it" - that's nearly 10 to 1] I couldn't post all 18 pages on this forum so I encouraged you to go to my web site and check out the verses that I listed. I don't want to "rekindle" the debate, but I would like to have you post (somewhere - on your own web site?) as many verses to "counter" - as I supplied in favor of "eternal security".

You stated: "Eternal security is a careless doctrine." I believe that it is "careless" of anyone to make a claim if they can't back it up. Please produce the scriptures and I will promise you that I will read them (I will pay for the postage - if you have to send them by "snail mail). I am not trying to "push" my web site (it's not that special) but here is the address again: http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/ If you go to the Section called "Bible Lessons" and the heading "Verses on Salvation" you will find the verses listed.

I am not claiming that I found all of the verses pertaining to salvation - but I did make a sincere effort to find as many as I could. Perhaps you can find more.

Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word,

George

[QUOTE=evstevemd;2164]Ev. Steve, Do you support talking in tongues? YES.
Does it mean you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues? NO
So then what? :confused:
Both are Biblical, but don't confuse them please! Check what God says below!

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.



You cannot build a doctrine by pulling singe verses out of the context they are written in....oops, sorry, obviously you can, I should have said, you SHOULD NOT build a doctrine by pulling single verses out of context.

Fundy.

No,not at all.

I, personally, would like to see more people of differing faiths to post opinions, just like you have.

I have stated in past posts that If a person speaks in tongues, it it fine with me,I dont believe it to be Biblically correct, but thats just me. The thing is, that if you are going to start waving the pentacostal flag, espouse a loss of salvation doctrine, or even start posting your reply in tongues....dont expect a warm and fuzzy group hug from those of us that disagree.

Fundy

George, the fact you found verses that say you can lose your salvation makes my point. There is a paradox. So, I say both sides are true and I'm almost ridiculed for it. God says He's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But, there are those who perish. Thanks for your civil answer. I appreciate it.

The Bible has some "mysteries" (Mt. 13:11; Mr. 4:11; Lu 8:10; Ro. 11:25; 16:25; 1Co. 2:7, 4:1, 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3-4,9; 6:19; Col. 1:26-27; 2:2; 4:3; 2Th. 2:7; 1Ti 3:9; Re. 1:20; 10:7; 17:5,7) some "great mysteries" (Eph. 5:32; 1Ti. 3:16); and "some things that are hard to be understood" (2Pe. 3:16).

They may appear to be be "paradoxes" to some, but Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Our problem is not so much KNOWLEDGE, which many on this Forum obviously have. Our problem is DISCERNMENT; UNDERSTANDING; and WISDOM. Knowledge we can get from men (a school, a church, etc.). We can even get some discernment from others, but - understanding and wisdom come from Almighty God and He gives them to whom He will (1Corinthians 2:1-16).

After 50 years of contending (and sometimes being too contentious) for the faith, I have learned to avoid insincere people (sophists); kooks; hereticks; and reprobates. And I have very little patience with Bible "correctors" and Christian's who are in positions of leadership and authority who try to have dominion (2Corinthians 1:24) over the brethren (my 2 pet peeves) .

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I sincerely hope that we can continue with a "civil" discourse.

Revangelist, I too am a Gazelle on the killing field of modern versionist. You are not alone, glad to support you in this fight for the KJB 1611-1769 Bible.

In the service of Jesus Christ, Clyde

Re: My earlier post (3-24-08)

Christians are commanded to study "the word of truth" and to rightly divide "the word of truth" - I forgot to add that in view of the fact that there is only one clear verse commanding us to study and how to study: [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]

And since there are only two clear verses (that I know of) on how to rightly divide "the word of truth": Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little and
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

If there are apparent differences in the scriptures (i.e. approximately 350 verses in support of "eternal security" and approximately 38 verses against) the only way to resolve this issue is through the the Biblical study methods outlined above (since our God is not the "author of confusion" - 1Corinthians 14:33) - and since the overwhelming evidence of scripture is in support of the preservation of the saints ("eternal security") there must be an explanation for the approximately 38 verses that "oppose" it.

The simple answer to this "problem" (for those of us who believe in "eternal security") is that those approximately 38 verses must apply to someone other than a Christian saved by the Grace of God in the church age. (Since both propositions cannot possibly be true in regards to a salvation that is referred to over and over again as being "eternal" and "for ever" - or else "eternal" & "for ever" have lost all meaning.)

We believe that we are "rightly dividing the word of truth" according to God's guidlines (Isaiah 28:9-10 & Isaiah 28:13). And so we strongly contend for our position and do not believe that it is a "careless doctrine", but on the contrary, it is a doctrine that has its roots in the overwheming testimony of scripture.

I don't mean to open up the subject again or revisit it - but perhaps this may shed some light on why many of us believe the way that we do, to some of those here on this Forum that may not share our same beliefs. (Again, if you ever come up with a verse list supporting your position I would be more than happy to check it out).

As brother George points out, consider this statement:
"Every heresy is truth misapplied."

Some believe that a person is saved by believing only using Paul's epistles. others believe that a person is saved by believing and doing, using the Old Testament, the Gospels, the early part of Acts, and the books Hebrews through Revelation, which are not addressed to the Church Age saint.

For example, there are obvious differences in God's dealings with man between the "time past", the "now", and the "ages to come".

Revangelist,

I did not say all Pentecostals are a cult, however some of this " new crowd is a cult." You seem not to notice I have said this two time on page two.


Atlas

There is a verse in the AV1611 that I wonder if anyone wantes to comment on.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It reads differently in the NKJV:

Acts 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

In the KJV, the word "since" is used. In the NKJV, "when" is used, changing the meaning.

In verse 6, it says, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." KJV

"And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied". NKJV

Sure, I will....

It looks like the KJV is teaching the gift of the Holy Ghost happens after one believes unto salvation, and the NKJV the gift of the Holy Ghost happens at the same time. I wonder why more Pentecostals don't use the KJV for that reason?

It has been said: "If someone is going to break their neck in Scripture - they are most likely going to do it in the Books of Matthew, Acts, and Hebrews!"

Matthew is the Gospel of the "King of the Jews" (pecularly Jewish).

Acts is a transitional Book - going from the Kingdom to the church. What takes place in the beginning of Acts is not the Gospel of the Grace of God, but an extension of the Gospel of the Kingdom (an offer by God to send the Lord Jesus back IF the nation Israel will repent of killing their Lord and Christ.)

In Acts Chapter 2 Look at WHO is speaking (Peter - a Jew). Look at WHO he is speaking to (ye men of Judea and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem; ye men of Israel; men and brethren; all the house of Israel) . Read the words carefully - This is a Jewish message about the fulfilling of a Jewish Old Testament prophesy (prophesied by a Jewish prophet {Joel} addressed to the nation of Israel or a Jewish King {the patriarch - David} testifying to the glory of the risen Lord - all Jews or Proselyte Jews).

In Acts Chapter 3 again the Apostle Peter is speaking again to WHOM?: "he answered unto the people ye men of Israel," ("the people" - what people? - "ye men of Israel") and peter goes on "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." [Acts 3:13]

Abraham-Isaac-Jacob? The God of whose fathers? Ye delivered up? This is clearly a Jewish message addressed to Jews - NOT the church. I could go on chapter after chapter until we come to Paul (the Apostle to the gentiles - the Apostle to whom the mysteries were "revealed).

And the book of "Hebrews" - the title should give us a "hint" to be extra careful in "rightly dividing" this book. The same goes for James - addressed to "the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad".

This is known as: "Rightly Dividing" 101 & Basic Bible study101. WHO said that? - WHO is he speaking to? The whole of the Bible is FOR us, BUT the whole of the Bible is not directly addressed TO us.

Yes, and without "rightly dividing", I might as well say that the KJV teaches us not to eat pork.

Hey George, it is a pleasure to discuss with you. One of my best friends is like you in that regard. Iron sharpens iron. There's always built-in irritations with any disagreement, however, when incendiary remarks are eliminated, that makes for a more challenging discussion.

That said,

I believe the question you are asking me has to do with context of who is being addressed and who can apply a particular teaching today (sorry for the sloppy paraphrase).

The reason I believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is for today has to do with the following verses:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


And again, thank you for being civil. On another thread, I was told I don't know Jesus because I didn't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of pre-destination. That's when it's time to end the discussion.