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Buck 04-01-2009 01:22 AM

Repentance
When a person repents, he changes his mind about something and proceeds in a different direction. God commands all sinners to repent of their sins and turn to Him for salvation (Acts 17:30-31; Luk. 13:3). A person who truly repents is a person who will (1) Become saddened about their sins (II Cor. 7:9-10; Psa. 51), (2) forsake their sins (Mt. 3:8; Acts 26:20), and (3) submit themselves to the will of God (Acts 9:6). Anything less is something less than Biblical repentance.

CKG 04-01-2009 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck (Post 17649)
Repentance
When a person repents, he changes his mind about something and proceeds in a different direction. God commands all sinners to repent of their sins and turn to Him for salvation (Acts 17:30-31; Luk. 13:3). A person who truly repents is a person who will (1) Become saddened about their sins (II Cor. 7:9-10; Psa. 51), (2) forsake their sins (Mt. 3:8; Acts 26:20), and (3) submit themselves to the will of God (Acts 9:6). Anything less is something less than Biblical repentance.

The phrase "repent of sins" can be confusing leading many to believe that they must somehow put away their sins as a condition for salvation. Paul tells us what Biblical repentance as it concerns salvation is in Acts 20:21.
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)

Paul lays out the gospel for us in 1 Corinthians 15.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Salvation is a gift from God.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:7-9)
By faith we receive this gift by believing the gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Ephesians 1:13
Judas was saddened over his actions, but he never repented. The bottom line in salvation is not how you feel, but what do you believe.

Winman 04-01-2009 02:54 PM

I agree with CKG.

The word repent does not mean turn from sins, else God is a sinner.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Psalms 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

There are many verses besides these that say God repented. As God cannot sin, then surely repent is not defined as turning from sin. It means to change one's mind, to think differently, to decide differently.

In Acts 17, Paul is telling the Athenians to turn from their false gods to the true God and trust on Jesus Christ. Now, it is a sin to worship false gods, so in this sense he is telling them to turn from sin. But the real message was to change their thinking.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

In Luke it is the same. These persons believed themselves righteous because God was good to them, and believed others were great sinners who God punished.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So, see here how Jesus addresses their thoughts, not actions. He is telling them that they must realize that they too are sinners in danger of perishing. They should see their sin.

Here is a very example.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee needed to change his opinion of himself. He needed to realize he was a sinner. He needed to quit trusting in his own righteousness and trust in Jesus. This is what repent means.

And notice the publican. He did not promise to quit sinning, though it is obvious he was very ashamed of himself. But he came to Christ and depended on him and was forgiven.

Jesus does not save us because we promise to quit sinning. Any honest Christian will tell you that they still have problems with sin after receiving Christ. I know I have.

Jesus came to save the UNGODLY, not the godly.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And when Jesus healed the sick, it was a picture of salvation. Imagine telling a blind man, "when you start seeing, I will forgive you", or telling a cripple, "when you start walking, I will forgive you". No, when the sick came to Jesus, many truly believed they were horrible sinners and this is why they were afflicted, this was the teaching of the day. In most cases you see them crying out for mercy.

Matt 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us. 28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.


Just as these blind men could not see until AFTER Jesus healed them, we cannot truly do good until AFTER Jesus saves us.

chette777 04-01-2009 09:08 PM

well said CKG and Winman

Buck 04-02-2009 04:50 PM

Are you trying to say that repenting of your sins, is not needed to proceed to heaven ??
You have lost me in your conversation.

Bro. Parrish 04-02-2009 05:24 PM

Brother Buck,
I think you were right in your previous post, when you said repentance in essence is a change of mind. The problem can start when we start adding things to that, as some type of "evidence" for salvation.

I think what the others are saying is that we have to be careful because some tend to view repentance differently than others, and some see it as a "work" needed for salvation.

Here is a pretty good overview of the various doctrines on repentance down through the ages, (be advised I do not consider all of these as Biblical) you might want to review the entire article, these are just a few points and I'm just trying to show how various denominations can put a spin on these things like repentance and baptism... notice carefully the concept under "turning away from sin."

Repentance (Metanoia) Defined as a Change of Mind

"In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind." Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ. In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith."

Turning Away from Sin

"Those holding to this view consider salvific repentance to be the actual turning away from one's sins and not merely a willingness or intention to do so. They would tell an alcoholic, for example, that in order to become a Christian he would first have to stop getting drunk."

"Which of the views stated is the one correct view of salvific repentance? Future articles in this series will demonstrate that the change-of-mind-secure-salvation view is the biblical one.

If a person must give up something or even be willing to do so to obtain salvation, then it is not really a free gift. If one must live an obedient life to keep salvation, then it is conditioned upon faith plus works, and grace is nullified. Other views of salvific repentance fail to grasp the gravity of our plight as sinners in the hands of a holy God.

Nothing which we can do to try and clean up our lives will impress God. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can atone for our sins. And, the only way to appropriate Jesus' blood is by faith alone in Christ alone. The only thing we need to give up is a self-righteous attitude. We must cease viewing ourselves as good enough to merit salvation and instead place all of our trust on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us as our Substitute."


Full article here:
The Doctrine of Repentance in Church History
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2503

Winman 04-02-2009 05:30 PM

Buck

There is only one time in the Bible where a person is told specifically to repent of sin.

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

This was not said to a lost unbeliever, but Simon who before he was saved practiced sorcery.

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

This is the only instance where a person is specifically told to repent of a sin.

Repent means to change your mind or viewpoint. When John the Baptist spoke to Israelites, he told them to repent from believeing they were safe and secure simply because they were the seed of Abraham. They needed to realize they were sinners in danger of perishing.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Do you see how repentance is related to thought?

As I showed in Luke, Jesus said "Suppose ye" and "Think ye"

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So repent means to see things differently, to change one's mind or opinion.

And a person must repent to be saved. If you believe yourself to be righteous, you will never come to Jesus for forgiveness. This is the repentance that is necessary.

But no one can promise to quit sinning. Well, you could, but you will never be able to do it. At least I have never been able to do it.

I met a fellow once who claimed that himself and the members of his church had learned to quit sinning. He was dead serious. I said, "I bet you cannot go one day without sinning." He said, "Oh, that is easy, I can easily go a day without sinning."

I said, "Well, you just blew it, the Bible says boasting is a sin, and you just boasted!"

That is a true story. Man, did he get mad. :mad2:

Back to Simon. Here is the only case in the Bible where a person is specifically told to repent of a sin. And this was said to a saved and baptized person.

A sinner will sin, that is what sinners do. Yes, they can do some good things, but overall they are evil.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

So, an unsaved person can do some good things. But a sinner's nature draws them to sin.

It is just like a blind man. He cannot see. And a cripple, he cannot walk. It was only AFTER Jesus healed them that they could see or walk.

Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.


Here Jesus compares sin to sickness. He is the physician that can heal the sinner of his sin, just as he gave sight to the blind, and made the lame to walk. They could not heal themselves, and we cannot heal ourselves of sin either.

Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, 44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. 45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. 48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.


This woman's disease is a picture of sin. No one but Jesus can heal us of our sin problem. You cannot truly have victory over sin until you come to Jesus.

As I said before, Jesus came to save the ungodly, not the godly. This is what Jesus meant when he said "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick"

You can promise to quit sinning if you want, but I doubt you will be able to accomplish it. I haven't been able to, and neither could Paul.

Acts 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And was Paul turning from sin when he was saved?? No. He was going to Damascus to persecute Christians. Of course, when Jesus spoke to him, he quickly saw things differently.

tonybones2112 04-04-2009 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 17746)
Brother Buck,
I think you were right in your previous post, when you said repentance in essence is a change of mind. The problem can start when we start adding things to that, as some type of "evidence" for salvation.

I think what the others are saying is that we have to be careful because some tend to view repentance differently than others, and some see it as a "work" needed for salvation.

Here is a pretty good overview of the various doctrines on repentance down through the ages, (be advised I do not consider all of these as Biblical) you might want to review the entire article, these are just a few points and I'm just trying to show how various denominations can put a spin on these things like repentance and baptism... notice carefully the concept under "turning away from sin."

Repentance (Metanoia) Defined as a Change of Mind

"In contrast to the Church's definition of metanoia as involving contrition, confession, and the performance of acts of penance, Calvin and Luther concluded that it retained its classical sense of "a change of mind." Salvific repentance according to Calvin and Luther was a change of mind whereby one recognized his own sinfulness and need of forgiveness and then turned in faith to God to provide that forgiveness in Christ. In essence, then, Luther and Calvin viewed salvific repentance as an essential part of saving faith."

Turning Away from Sin

"Those holding to this view consider salvific repentance to be the actual turning away from one's sins and not merely a willingness or intention to do so. They would tell an alcoholic, for example, that in order to become a Christian he would first have to stop getting drunk."

"Which of the views stated is the one correct view of salvific repentance? Future articles in this series will demonstrate that the change-of-mind-secure-salvation view is the biblical one.

If a person must give up something or even be willing to do so to obtain salvation, then it is not really a free gift. If one must live an obedient life to keep salvation, then it is conditioned upon faith plus works, and grace is nullified. Other views of salvific repentance fail to grasp the gravity of our plight as sinners in the hands of a holy God.

Nothing which we can do to try and clean up our lives will impress God. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can atone for our sins. And, the only way to appropriate Jesus' blood is by faith alone in Christ alone. The only thing we need to give up is a self-righteous attitude. We must cease viewing ourselves as good enough to merit salvation and instead place all of our trust on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us as our Substitute."


Full article here:
The Doctrine of Repentance in Church History
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2503

Brother Parrish, I'm not being sarcastic, the link was interesting in a historical context, but by the time I got through the Latin and Greek terms I was still a bit confused as to what he was saying. I think we can turn to the Scriptures for a much more efficatious definition of the different kinds of repentance.

Sometimes, you can practice what's called the Law Of First Mention, in this case we see repentance being defined as "changing the mind and heart" since the first Person to repent in the Bible was God:

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Jud 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

Judas Iscariot repented of the evil he did, but he did not have the Scripture below these verses nor was he man enough to go to the cross and seek forgiveness. He sought MAN'S forgiveness:

Matt 27:1 ¶ When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us?
see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

I differ with the learned doctor in that while "turning away from sin" sounds good, it is something, according to Paul, that we can't do. Sin lives within us. We cannot keep the whole law, sin is transgression of the law and failing it at one point fails us on all points. I sin every time I shave and get a haircut. I've been known, on the Sabbath(Jerusalem time) to have not made more than a Sabbath day's journey but maybe 50 times that in my former travels. Wretched man that I am, what I do is not what made me work godly sorrow but what I am: A creature an innocent and perfect Man had to die for.

2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Judas Iscariot practice this "sorrow of the world" in that he sought forgiveness and solace from the high priests who condemned Jesus Christ to death and not from God. It's our Godly sorrow and repentance towards God and not towards the world that works salvation, sorrow towards the world works death, and like the high priests statement to Judas, who cares? The world don't. Godly repentance is saying ,God, I'm sorry for who and what I am, wash me in Your Blood and save me by Your sacrifice for me on Calvary, worldly repentance is Judas's repentance, oops, I got caught.

Grace and peace to you., brother.

Tony Bones Oth.

Buck 04-04-2009 05:51 AM

re·pent 1 (rĭ-pěnt') Pronunciation Key
v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents

v. intr.

To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
v. tr.

To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
To cause to feel remorse or regret.

[Middle English repenten, from Old French repentir : re-, re- + pentir, to be sorry (from Vulgar Latin *paenitīre, from Latin paenitēre).]
re·pent'er n.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Winman 04-04-2009 06:38 AM

Well, that is the modern interpretation of the word repent, but not what it meant years ago, just as the word "replenish" in Gen 1:28 and Gen 9:1 meant "to fill" the earth, but now has come to mean "refill". God's Word has not changed, but the English language has.

If repent means to be sorry for sin, then God is a sinner.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Judges 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Psa 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God cannot sin, so repented cannot mean to turn from sin.

Here is an article about repentance from Curtis Hutson that is pretty good.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/repentance.html

George 04-04-2009 09:15 AM

Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck (Post 17791)
re·pent 1 (rĭ-pěnt') Pronunciation Key
v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents

v. intr.
To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

v. tr.
To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
To cause to feel remorse or regret.

[Middle English repenten, from Old French repentir : re-, re- + pentir, to be sorry (from Vulgar Latin *paenitīre, from Latin paenitēre).]
re·pent'er n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Aloha Buck,

Below is Webster's 1828 Dictionary definition for the word repent - Notice the difference?
Quote:

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

REPENT'ANCE, n.
1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.

2. In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. This sorrow proceeding merely from the fear of punishment, is called legal repentance, as being excited by the terrors of legal penalties, and it may exist without an amendment of life.

3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.

Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.

Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.

Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
I have said (over & over again) when it comes to SPIRITUAL issues and matters - a Dictionary cannot be our FINAL AUTHORITY as to the "meaning" of words with spiritual significance; and neither can the various Lexicon's (including the Lexicon within Strong's Concordance).

If you want to know the definition of the so-called "archaic" words within the King James Bible (such as: abase, adjure affright, ague, alamoth, ambassage, Euroclydon, eshew, exactors, etc., etc.,) Webster's 1828 Dictionary will suffice; BUT when it comes to the meaning of "spiritual" words such as repent, repentance, justification, faith, believe, body (flesh), soul, spirit, heart, mind, conscience, etc., etc., you will have to study the Bible for the definition.

The Bible is its own best "Dictionary" when it comes to defining "spiritual" words - anything else (Dictionaries, Lexicons, etc.) will only give you the "opinions" of men.

For example: if you want the Bible "definition" for the word HEART, you get a Concordance (Swordsearcher is 10 to 100 times faster and easier than Strong's Concordance) and look up the word "heart" ("hearts" & "hearted"). The word heart (hearts/hearted) occurs approximately 944 times in 884 verses in the Bible. In order to get the Scriptural "meaning" of the word HEART - you have to read all 884 verses where the word occurs (in context), and if you are sincerely seeking the truth, God will show you what the "Biblical" HEART is.

This takes STUDY - this takes WORK, but it is the only way that a person can find out the Scriptural "meaning" of the "spiritual" words in the Bible. And even then, if God doesn't show you the "meaning", you may not "get it"!

Running to a Dictionary or a Lexicon for the "meaning" of "spiritual" words in the Bible is the lazy man's way of "study", and more often than not - it will lead to an erroneous, or false meaning.

My question for you is: WHY are you insisting that REPENTANCE is a PART of our SALVATION? The only "part" we have in our Salvation is we MUST BELIEVE the Gospel: [Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.] PLUS NOTHING!

If "repentance" precedes salvation - fine; if "repentance" follows salvation - fine; BUT "repentance" is NOT A REQUIREMENT for our Salvation, BELIEVING the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is! The problem with insisting that we must "repent" of our sins BEFORE we can be saved is: WHAT if we "MISS" some of the sins we have committed because of "ignorance" -can we be saved? I have been saved for over 50 years, and I am becoming more aware of "SIN" in my life that I never knew existed (within my heart) just a few years ago!

SIN is exceedingly SINFUL; and as such, we really only have an "inkling" of just how wicked and sinful we really are. The closer we get to the Lord Jesus Christ the more we realize this truth. It is impossible to REPENT of ALL of our sins, we aren't even aware of half of them!

It's by God's Grace; it's by God's Love; it's by God's Mercy; it's by Christ's Sacrifice for all of my sins that I am saved. I could have been in continual "repentance" from October 1958 up until now and that wouldn't PAY for my SINS! My "REPENTANCE" wouldn't satisfy God's REQUIREMENT for my SINS - the shedding of the Lord's Jesus Christ's BLOOD for my SINS; the death of my SAVIOUR for my SINS!

I am exceedingly SINFUL, and IF the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice on Calvary is not enough to PAY for ALL of my sins, all of the "repentance" (on my part) in the world isn't going to save me!

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I am JUSTIFIED in God's eyes - NOT because I "repented" of my sins, but because I believed the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in JesusChrist, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
without the deeds of the law.

WHERE IS "REPENTANCE" in ALL of the preceding verses?

The Lord Jesus Christ EARNED my Salvation; He PAID the PRICE REQUIRED for my sins, and not for my sins only, but for the sins of the whole world. "Repentance", on my part, has NOTHING to do with Christ saving me!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have been saved "by God's Grace" - and "repentance" (on my part) had absolutely NOTHING to do with His saving me.




Mind and Body 04-04-2009 08:15 PM

Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But what is Biblical repentance, anyway? I haven't gotten a definitive answer.

Winman 04-04-2009 08:33 PM

Mind and Body

That verse has been gone over several times. Look at the entire passage in context.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here were people who told Jesus of certain people that were killed by Pilate. And Jesus mentioned eighteen people who were killed when a tower in Siloam fell on them.

In those days, but still today, many people believed when something bad or unfortunate happened to a person(s), that this was proof that these people were exceedingly bad sinners.

And that was the case here. But Jesus told them that they need to repent, or change their viewpoint, that they too were sinners in danger of perishing if they did not see their sinfulness and come to the Lord for forgiveness.

The repentance that is necessary for salvation is to quit trusting in one's own righteousness, or believeing they are saved because they belong to a certain church or religion, and coming to Jesus Christ, trusting that Jesus paid our sin penalty on the cross, died, was buried, and raised from the dead.

Buck 04-04-2009 10:37 PM

Well brothers,
I know history is good.
We have gone from I was wrong, to I was right, to I was wrong. LOL

Bro. Parrish 04-05-2009 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 17812)
Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But what is Biblical repentance, anyway? I haven't gotten a definitive answer.

I answered that question in post no. 46...
Biblical repentance in essence is a change of mind.

Before I trusted Christ, (30 years ago) I thought about God from time to time, may have casually thought Jesus was a good man, etc. (James 2:19)---but repentance (change of mind) about my pathetic, sinful condition and my urgent need for salvation led me to call on God and accept His free gift. Without repentance I would not have believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead. Without that basic change of mind, I don't see how men can be saved. That's why the Bible says...

"godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." 2 Corinthians 7:10

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9

Kiwi Christian 04-05-2009 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 17822)
I answered that question in post no. 46...
Biblical repentance in essence is a change of mind.

Before I trusted Christ, (30 years ago) I thought about God from time to time, may have casually thought Jesus was a good man, etc. (James 2:19)---but repentance (change of mind) about my pathetic, sinful condition and my urgent need for salvation led me to call on God and accept His free gift. Without repentance I would not have believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead. Without that basic change of mind, I don't see how men can be saved. That's why the Bible says...

"godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." 2 Corinthians 7:10

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9

Amen & amen. Same applied with me!

George 04-05-2009 05:47 PM

Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? & James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? "
 
Mind & Body’s Thread & Posts concerning - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?:
{bold & underlines in M&B’s Threads and Posts are mine – G.A.}

Aloha Mind & Body,

I have listed your Thread and all of your Posts concerning your question, and my comments follow each Post.

Mind & Body’s THREAD:
Quote:

#1 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-19-2009, 03:23 PM}
Hi, I am new here, but, since most everyone here is a Protestant who disagrees with Catholicism, I want a definitive answer, with Biblical evidence. I am a Baptist myself, but I am not convinced that Roman Catholics are damned. If anyone here thinks that they are, then will you please tell me why? Because Chick and the like say that they are.
First of all - your statement: “since most everyone here is a Protestant who disagrees with Catholicism” - demonstrates a Roman Catholic understanding of Christianity, and does not reflect reality (here on the Forum), nor does it reflect the facts of history.

Most of the people on the Forum are NOTProtestants” – most of us come from an “Independent” background {Baptists (all Kinds); Brethren (Plymouth, Grace, etc.); Independent Bible churches ” (all Kinds); “Community” churches (all “flavors”); "Calvary" (all Kinds); “Evangelical” (all flavors); Pentecostal (a few); and various other churches that have NOTHING to do with the Reformation or the “Protestant” churches (Lutheran; Reformed; Presbyterian; Methodist; Anglican; Episcopalian; and the numerous “Off-shoots” from them – Congregational; United Church of Christ; etc.).

It is a Roman Catholic “concept” to consider ALL so-called “Christian” Churches as being “Protestant”, but the facts of history say otherwise. Read: Foxe’s Book of Martyrs (Reformed) or one, or several Church History Books: Schaffs (Episcopalian) - 8 Volumes; LaTourette’s (Baptist)– 12 Volumes; Eardmanns (Various Authors) – about 12 Volumes; Cunningham’s (Presbyterian) 2 Volumes; Ruckman’s (Baptist) – 2 Volumes; or you might even check out Cardinal John Henry Newman’s Church History (Anglican, converted to Roman Catholicism).

Now I am NOT recommending these men, or their writings, what I am claiming is that the “FACTS” about the history of Christianity from the time of Paul up to the present can be found in many “church histories” – IF a reader has the discernment to weed out the personal “bias” of the writer. And the “FACTS” about the history of God’s church is that there have always been small groups of believers (branded “schismatics” by Roman Catholics and later by Protestants) down through the centuries, which were first persecuted by the Roman government; and later by the Roman Catholic Church; and later by the Protestant churches also!

If you “think” that “most everyone here is a Protestant”, you are mistaken, and the reason for your error is because of your Roman Catholic training, upbringing, and education. The history of the church of God NEVER was – First the Apostolic Church; and then the Catholic Church; and then the division between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox; and then the “Protestant” Churches; and that’s ALL! All during the time that the “Kingdom Builders” (Roman Catholic; Eastern Orthodox; and Protestant) were trying to establish God’s “Kingdom” on earth (through fear, intimidation, coercion, and force) there has always been small groups of believers who refused to accept the “Kingdom Builders” doctrines and more often than not, suffered sever persecution for their beliefs – even death.

You had a peculiar way of asking for a “a definitive answer” to a question, by first putting forward your own belief – “but I am not convinced that Roman Catholics are damned” first, and then posing the question. {???} “If anyone here thinks that they are, then will you please tell me why? Because Chick and the like say that they are.” Why do people do this? WHY didn’t you just put forward your question, without your own assertions, if you are sincerely interested in what other people believe?

Many of the answers given by the brethren gave you “a definitive answer” to your question, and that is we are NOT in a position to condemn ALL Roman Catholics to Hell, since we don’t know ANY OF THEIR HEARTS – ONLY GOD KNOWS PEOPLE’S HEARTS! [1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Luke 16:15; Acts 1:24; 1John 3:20] And other than that – there is NOdefinitive answer” to your question! As a matter of fact, your question is a “non sequitur” (as the “scholars” and “educators” would say).

Quote:

Non sequitur
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.:

1. Logic. an inference or a conclusion that does not follow from the premises
2.a statement containing an illogical conclusion
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non sequitur
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.:
  • An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
  • A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
non sequitur
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

A thought that does not logically follow what has just been said: “We had been discussing plumbing, so her remark about astrology was a real non sequitur.” Non sequitur is Latin for “It does not follow.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non sequitur
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.:

An inference which does not follow from the premises.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Non sequitur
WordNet® 3.0 @ 2006 by Princeton University.

1. a reply that has no relevance to what preceded it
2. (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises
It is very instructive (to me at least) that educated Christians often ask inconsequential and immaterial questions that, on the surface, may appear to be “reasonable”; but when examined carefully, turn out to be “loaded” with difficulty, ambiguity, uncertainty, and dubiousness.

Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

#10 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-20-2009, 01:36 PM}
I nowhere said that people were saved by Church attendance or denomination or anything other than belief, but I was wondering if anyone here perscribed to the notion that Catholics worship a non-Scriptural Christ, or perhaps that some did not worship Him at all, which would damn them to Hell.
Again your question is a “non sequitur” because (again) we do NOT know ALL Catholics’ hearts, so we don’t have any idea, which of them (if any) have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour! However, if you are asking about official Roman Catholic Church doctrine – the “Christ” of Roman Catholic Church doctrine is unable to “save them (Roman Catholics) to the uttermost”, and so it is clear that the “Christ” that the Roman Catholic Church preaches is NOT THE “CHRIST” of the Holy Scriptures.

Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

#17 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-22-2009, 04:17 PM}
What I meant was, did some here think that Catholics aren't getting to "The Real McCoy", as it were, they are not expressing belief in the Real Christ, only the angry, co-mediatrix, Second-to-Mary type of Jesus that Catholics believe in? because that, I thought, was what damned Catholics to Hell. I really started to have my doubts in Catholicism when my friend Benjamin's mother, a devout Catholic that never misses Mass, suggested in a short conversation that God might be Female. She said of the Bible, which clearly teaches otherwise, that "the opinions of the writers got mixed up in the writings." I really was so flabbergasted that I had then nothing to say to her, but I can tell you that I am almost sure that she is not Born-Again.
Once Again your question is a “non sequitur” because (once again) we do NOT know ALL Catholics’ hearts! It doesn’t really matter WHAT we “THINK”, the fact is we have no idea which Catholics (if any) have believed the Gospel (that Paul preached – 1Corinthians 15:1-4) and have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

It’s always a dangerous thing for Christians to try to determine (judge) WHO is saved, and WHO is NOT. The only thing we can say with certainty is, in order for a person to be genuinely saved – they MUST BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ as presented in the Holy Scriptures (and NOT some church’s representation of Him), and they MUST individually (personally) RECEIVE Him as their Saviour, in order to become a son of God.

Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

#29 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-23-2009, 09:22 PM}
I just don't understand why most Catholics think that their religion is the only way to heaven. Since the Vatican II Council, Protestants are no longer to be called "heretics", but instead "separated brethren". But hyper-Catholic Web sites like NewAdvent.org still calls Protestants heretics and says that they are damned to hell. It is just not in the Whore's best intrest to be so divisive...
It’s quite simple really - most “religions” (Hinduism, Buddhism, Mohammedism – “Islam”, etc.) believe that “their way” is the “ONLY WAY”. The same goes for many “Christian” Denominations and Sects. As a side note, today most secular HUMANISTS (Humanism is a religion/philosophy) believe exactly the SAME {their "way" ("psychiatry" & "psychology") is the "ONLY WAY"} as most “religionists”! Today’s Humanists are as “bigoted”, close-minded, and “prejudiced” as the persecuting Roman Catholic Priests of the 12th and 13th Centuries!

It is always in the “best interest” of any False Religion to present as many “faces” as they can, in order to “mask” their true beliefs or doctrines; in order to “deceive the hearts of the simple”! [Romans 16:18] {Did you notice that the Scriptures didn’t say in order to: deceive the (MINDS) of the simple – the Scriptures said to “deceive the HEARTS of the simple”. We BELIEVE with our HEARTNOT our MIND! Christian’s failure to discern between the differences between the HEART, the MIND, and the CONSCIENCE has led to more false teaching and doctrine than you or I will ever know.

Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

#36 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-25-2009, 03:18 PM}
No one suggested that, Bro. Luke.
Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

#52 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {04-04-2009, 09:15 PM}
[Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.]

But what is Biblical repentance, anyway? I haven't gotten a definitive answer.
In reading you’re preceding Thread & Posts – You never asked a “definitive question” in regards to “Biblical repentance”, and so it is impossible to “answer” a “question” that was never asked!

We will now move on to your (M&B’s) second Thread and subsequent Post:

Mind & Body’s Thread & Posts concerning - James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes?:

Mind & Body’s THREAD:
Quote:

James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? {03-25-2009, 10:52 AM}
Can Salvation by Faith Alone, a Protestant principle, be reconciled with the second chapter of James' Epistle? he claims that faith without works is dead.”
For your information – Salvation by Faith Alone” is NOT CONFINED to “a Protestant principle! {Another "remnant teaching" from your Roman Catholic past} “Salvation by Faith Alone” is a “Scriptural Principal”! Paul taught Salvation by Faith Alone” 1,400 years before God showed the Scriptural principal to Martin Luther [Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38]. There are over 10 times the number of Scriptures supporting “Salvation by Faith Alone” as there are that say “works” are involved (see the list of Scriptures – pro & con on my web site). In order to “reconcile” the Book of James; or Hebrews; or Matthew with the teachings and doctrines of the Apostle Paul a Christian must study the Bible [2Timothy 2:15] and learn to “rightly divide the word of truth”.

Spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom are something that CANNOT be taught or LEARNED in SCHOOL. Things (Spiritual Issues i.e. doctrine) that are spiritually “discerned” are taught by the Holy Spirit and are learned by those Christians who have “a love of the truth” [2Thessalonians 2:10] and who sincerely seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in spiritual matters [1Corinthians 2:1-16].

You said that James: "claims that faith without works is dead.” James isn’t “claiming” anything. James is writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such, he makes NO "CLAIMS" – He’s stating a FACT! What students of the Holy Bible have to discern is - WHO is James WRITING to; and WHO do these verses APPLY to? One of the first basic principles in Bible study is “rightly dividing the word of truth” [2 Timothy 2:15]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” [2 Timothy 3:16] For Bible believers: ALL Scripture is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. ALL Scripture is written FOR us to study, BUT ALL scripture is NOT written TO us! ALL Scripture has been written FOR US, but NOT ALL Scripture APPLIES to the Christian.

Until a Christian understands the BASIC PRINCIPALS of “rightly dividing the word of truth”, they can make very little “spiritual sense” of Scripture and will either “think” that ALL Scripture must be “HARMONIZED” or “RECONCILED”; and what needs to be done is to “RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth” according to the principles recorded in the Holy Bible:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Bible is NOT written like a “Textbook”, it is written more like a “Puzzle”; and the KEYS to unlocking that “Puzzle” are - “rightly dividing the word of truth” {For instance discerning the DIFFERENCE between the JEW (Israel), the GENTILE (the world), and the CHURCH (born again sons of God)}; and “spiritual guidance” from the HOLY SPIRIT. That is WHY all of the “Schooling” and “Education” in the world CANNOT teach “spiritual things” – which are “spiritually discerned” [1Corinthians 2:1-16].

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Mind & Body’s POST:
Quote:

James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? {03-25-2009, 03:21 PM}
Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.”
Your last Post gives rise to many questions (about you - why are today's Christians sooo "touchy" and ""sensitive"?): First, because of your inane and juvenile “response” to brother Steve Monahan's (POTW) Post #2 <> Your Thread; and second (and more importantly) because you completely “IGNOREDeverything that he said.

There are NO “implications” in James Chapter 2. James is writing to “the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad”:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The Book of James is NOT ADDRESSED to the church or to a Christian, and as such, although we can learn from it, doctrinally it does NOT APPLY to the church or a Christian.

There are NO “implications” in James Chapter 2, except in the minds of those people that “think” that there is a “possible contradiction” in the Holy Bible. Is that the “IMPLICATION” that you were hinting at? If it is, then POTW had every good reason to warn you that: “If you are here to push works based salvation through 1 verse in James, I think you are in the wrong place.” I will add to that warning – If you are here to “imply” that a works based salvation is “possible”, or that there is a “contradiction” in the Holy Bible “you are in the wrong place.

The vast majority of the brethren on this Forum believe that our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, shed His precious Blood, and died for our sins, and rose again the third day; and that His gift of Salvation became our possession the moment we believed IN Him (the Gospel) and received Him as our Saviour – Plus Nothing!

This “issue” is more than just a “Bible-study” issue”, as you have claimed. It is a basic doctrinal issue that is at the core and center of our faith! To relegate it to just a “Bible-study” issue”, that we can discuss the “implications” thereof, or that can be “reconciled” by human reason or thought, denigrates the very FOUNDATION of our FAITH; and turns one of the central doctrines of the Bible into a “philosophical” question, that can be discussed (with an “open mind”), as if many of us don’t hold strong Biblical convictions concerning the issue.

Over the past year (since this Forum was first created) we have had many kooks, crazies, and crackpots join the Forum, and although ALL of them have had a different “Hobby Horse” that they want us to ride, they ALL have ONE THING IN COMMON – and that is, they ALL QUESTION the Holy words of God and try to cast doubt on them. “Yea, hath God said”?

Your question: Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? Is a non sequitur, and as such, there was NO “profit” or “edification” [Romans 14:19; 1Corinthians 10:23; 1Thessalonians 5:11] in answering it, since it was illogical.

Your question: James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? Is NOT a non sequitur, it is the kind of question that genders strife, division, and confusion. It is obvious, from the nature of your two questions, that you have not learned to “rightly divide the word of truth” [2 Timothy 2:15], for if you knew how to “rightly divide” you wouldn’t ask questions that a even a novice student of the Bible would already know; so the question arises WHY are you here, and WHAT are your intentions?

If you are here for the fellowship and to edify and be edified, you are certainly welcome, but on the other hand, if you are here to agitate and argue, or to stir up contention and cause trouble – be advised, some of us will not stand by idly and accept comments that are not true or which gender strife.

There’s a reason why POTW and I feel a bit “uneasy” about you (a “red flag” is up); only time will tell whether our “uneasiness” was mistaken or whether you are just one more trouble-maker looking for a “platform” to spread disinformation. :confused:

Fredoheaven 04-05-2009 06:11 PM

Of Repentance and of Faith
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 17812)
Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

But what is Biblical repentance, anyway? I haven't gotten a definitive answer.

Repentance in the Bible simply means to admit your'e a guilty. This is what we actually mean by a change of mind. While it is true that it is not to forsake(a long process) or to submit to God's will (for no one can repent if in God's will), nevertheless, it is a pre-requisite to receiving(believing) Jesus to be our Saviour. For no one can really believe(receive) Christ to be His Saviour without admitting he sinned. The question is can a person be saved if he is not willing to admit that he sin? In Acts 16:31 the Philipian jailor asked Paul and Silas on how to get saved. Paul and Silas simply answered the Jailor to "believed" in the Lord Jesus Christ. But what about repentance, the context in Acts 16, I believe is that it teach to us repentance hence, the jailor would almost have to kill himself(an implied sorrow). Repentance was also done by the malefactor when together with our Lord during the crucifixion.For an in depth study refer to Luke 23:39-43. So we see that repentance is necessary in accepting the salvation i.e. to believe Christ. I've been saved by believing Jesus as my Saviour. Jesus came to be a Saviour. He came for the purpose of saving you and me, for Jesus came "to seek and to save which was lost". Here is a Saviour Christ and we are sinners who will be needing a Saviour but only a sinner who is willing to admit that he needs a Saviour by faith will be saved.

Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

Mind and Body 04-06-2009 08:01 PM

Holy cow, George...I'm not a Catholic. Never have been, never will be...you did well when you chastised me with Scripture. O.K. but you have no reason to be so hostile! You act downright furious and I don't understand why...

Bro. Parrish 04-06-2009 08:14 PM

Mind and Body, don't take it personal.
You asked a good question and I think everyone has tried to answer in their own way. The doctrine of Biblical repentance is important and I'm glad we have the opportunity to discuss it.

chette777 04-07-2009 06:34 PM

Mind and Body,

George was in no wise being Hostile or furious. you interpret that with your own heart. be careful in accusing brethren of certain actions that you cannot verify with your eyes and ears. writing lacks human emotion, eye to eye contact, intonation of speech, body language and many other points that convey certain moods and emotions. George conveyed only frustration with the way you asked questions and the way you would not accept the answers many thought you were seeking.

tonybones2112 04-07-2009 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 17862)
Mind and Body, don't take it personal.
You asked a good question and I think everyone has tried to answer in their own way. The doctrine of Biblical repentance is important and I'm glad we have the opportunity to discuss it.

I agree with Bro. Parrish, don't mistake a fervent love for God and the Scriptures as being hostile. I'm one of the most intense people you ever want to meet as evidenced by my membership at "FFF".

MAB, brother George is a valuable asset to us and this forum, just as you are. Roman Catholics are no better, nor any worse, than any other sinner that needs Christ. Many of us are zealous, yes, but not hostile. You, me, all of us are part of One Body but many members, we are all individuals and have different personalities but you and all of us are united in the ONLY THING you can unite more than 2 human beings on in a true manner: The Gospel Of Christ.

Look in the Scriptures at the "firstborn". Always the firstborn falls short of the mark except for One: He Who is Firstborn from the dead. Cain, Ishmael, Esau. Look at God's firstborn son, the nation of Israel. Then look for the counterfeits for everything that is of God. Look at Jesus and Satan's conversation in Luke 4 and how Satan tried to back his deceit with Scripture and Christ's answer to Him: It is written. There is always a phony for what is True. The Jews have the Torah, and then the "Talmud", the opinions of the self-righteous "rabbis" that adds to the word of God. Look at Judaism and it's counterfeit, Islam. The True Christian Body of Christ has a counterfeit: Roman Catholicism. They all, each and every one of them stand one micron from the truth of the power of God unto salvation. That micron may as well be as wide as the boundaries of the Universe. That's how far Mormon's, Catholics, JWs, Church Of Christ, or the worst barfly sinner you can find is from the Presence of Christ.

My little town has become so inundated with Mexicans the local Catholic Church has tore down the old church to the foundations and rebuilt one larger. I'm going to dedicate myself to making that construction worthless. I want to see that church empty now, looking through a glass darkly, but then face to face with Christ I want to see the former members of it in heaven with me and all of us in this forum.

Grace and peace my friend.

Tony

Fredoheaven 04-08-2009 03:17 AM

Repentance in sackloth and ashes?
 
What about repentance in sackloth and ashes (Matthew 11:21)? What is meant by this? Can we still practice this as David did and others?
:sad:


Jude 25

Bro. Parrish 04-08-2009 08:57 AM

What is meant by it? That's a good question...
Well, as an outward show of deep sorrow in the Hebrew culture, they used to wear these scratchy, itchy garments made out of rough material or animal hair, called a CILICE. The word is pronounced SILL-iss, and this is also called SACKCLOTH. It was meant to be an outward symbol of deep humility--- like wearing a public sign that said,

"YES I BLEW IT, I AM AN IDIOT, FORGIVE ME." :(

"And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly. And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying, Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house." - 1 Kings 21:27-29

Sometimes entire groups and communities would wear these garments to show despair and sorrow... in this case, it would be like everyone wearing signs that said,

"WE ARE VERY UPSET AND IN MOURNING." :Cry:

"When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry. And came even before the king's gate: for none might enter into the king's gate clothed with sackcloth. And in every province, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, there was great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping, and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and ashes." Esth. 4:1

Fredoheaven; I think if you did that in public in our culture here today people would simply think you were strange and you might cause harm to the cause of Christ because people might think you a lunatic. On the other hand, if you were very upset about something you did and wanted to wear itchy clothes in private, hey go for it---I'm not going to criticize you for it. Personally, I prefer to simply pray and seek forgiveness, now that we have an advocate with the Father...

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:1-2

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:16


Strange but true; some Catholics down through the ages (Opus Dei) have taken this self-punishment to a whole new level (mortification) by wearing a METAL CILICE, with nasty little spikes on the inside to cause extra discomfort and pain for themselves. Ouch. :eek:

George 04-08-2009 10:23 AM

Re: " Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven (Post 17889)
What about repentance in sackloth and ashes (Matthew 11:21)? What is meant by this? Can we still practice this as David did and others?
:sad:


Jude 25

Aloha brother Fredoheaven,

The Roman Catholics "think" that they can DO something (in the flesh) that will be pleasing to God. They CANT' And neither can we!

[Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.]

God wants and expects "FRUIT" {love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance [Galatians 5:22-23]} in our lives. IF we have FRUIT - WORKS will follow.

Please notice the words describing "fruit" in the Bible: Our HEART bears (or produces) "FRUIT" - NOT our FLESH! Most Catholics (and many Christians) "think" that if they DO "something" (good "works", or self-induced "suffering" of some sort) in the flesh that they are "pleasing" God - it's impossible to please God in the flesh!

If Christians concentrates on "bearing FRUIT", God can "WORK" through them. If a Catholic (or a Christian) concentrates on producing "WORKS" (absent "fruit") they will end up "thinking" that they are pleasing God when they "punish themselves" or OTHERS!

But they are greatly mistaken, since the "testimony" of Scripture is that real, genuine fruit is always:

Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

If a person's "WORKS" don't line up with the preceding verse, then you know that there is a LACK OF FRUIT in their lives, and that their "works" are NOT pleasing to God! :(

Winman 04-08-2009 11:28 AM

I agree with Brother George, we can do nothing in the flesh that pleases God. And God does not save us because we turn from sin. Before you can please God, you must come to Him in faith first.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Hebrews Chapter 11 tells of many who first had faith in God, and then acted according to this faith. But faith is always mentioned first.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


You can do all the good works you want, or promise to quit sinning and God will not be pleased.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We need to realize we are lost sinners and that nothing we can do will please God. Only when we repent of depending on our own righteousness, and depend upon Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now, once we receive Christ and the Holy Spirit, then we please God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Only after being born again, and becoming a new creature can we do good works pleasing to God.

The works a man performs before coming to Christ do not give glory to Christ. They are done in self-righteousness. But when we receive Christ and have his law written in our hearts, then we out of love and gratitude (not fear) obey Christ.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Israel tried to please God in the flesh, but was not accepted of God.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Nothing you can do in the flesh will EVER please God. First, you must come just as you are, a sinner, to Jesus Christ in faith. Then, and only then can you begin to please God.

Bro. Parrish 04-08-2009 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 17896)
Aloha brother Fredoheaven,

The Roman Catholics "think" that they can DO something (in the flesh) that will be pleasing to God. They CAN'T And neither can we!

George that is a great truth, and this also extends to other pagan religions of the world ...
a casual review of online resources reveals that...

1. On the day of Ashura some devotees whip their own backs with bunched knives known as zanjirs; others beat their chests rhythmically with their hands. See link here (CAUTION this is graphic):
http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com...ation-and.html

2. Just last year a Shia Muslim was found guilty of child cruelty because he made two teenage boys take part in a self-flagellation ritual using a whip made of knife blades. Syed Mustafa Zaidi's defence was that this is a traditional ceremony commemorating the death of Hussein, Muhammad's grandson, at the massacre of Karbala in AD680.

3. In the Hindu festival of Thaipusam a ritual known as kavadi is performed. It ranges from carrying heavy weights uphill to piercing the body, face and tongue with skewers, or dangling from meat hooks passed through the back and legs. “The greater the pain,” one text says, “the greater the god-earned merit.”

4. In the festival for the goddess Draupathi believers walk on red-hot coals as an act of devotion or penance.

5. In Catholic circles, Saint Francis of Assisi, who is said to have received the stigmata, painful wounds like those of Jesus Christ, asked pardon to his body for the severe self-afflicted penances he had done: vigils, fasts, frequent flagellations and the use of a hairshirt (sackcloth).

6. In the second millennium, St. Dominic Loricatus is said to have performed 'One Hundred Years Penance' by chanting 20 psalters accompanied by 300,000 lashes over six days.

7. In the sixteenth century, Saint Thomas More, the Lord Chancellor of England, wore a hairshirt, deliberately mortifying his body. He also used the 'discipline.' Also, in the sixteenth century Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England wore a hairshirt.

8. Saint Ignatius of Loyola while in Manresa in 1522 is known to have practiced severe mortifications. In the Litany prayers to Saint Ignatius he is praised as being “constant in the practice of corporal penance.” He wore a hair shirt and heavy iron chain.... it goes on and on.

I am reminded of the great message from our King James Bible...

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." -- Psalm 51:17

George 04-08-2009 02:59 PM

Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? "

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 17861)
Holy cow, George...I'm not a Catholic. Never have been, never will be...you did well when you chastised me with Scripture. O.K. but you have no reason to be so hostile! You act downright furious and I don't understand why...

Mind and Body,

{"Holy Cow?" Where does that come from - Chapter & Verse?}

You say that you're "not a Catholic", sooo the question arises: WHY do you have so many Roman Catholic "concepts" of "Christianity" in general, and Christian Doctrine in particular?

In my last Post to you I stated:
Quote:

"Your last Post gives rise to many questions (about you - why are today's Christians sooo "touchy" and ""sensitive"?): First, because of your inane and juvenile “response” to brother Steve Monahan's (POTW) Post #2 <> Your Thread; and second (and more importantly) because you completely “IGNOREDeverything that he said."
I said that "you completely IGNORED everything that he (brother Steve Monahan) said"; if you will notice, in keeping with your modus operandi, you COMPLETELY IGNORED every single "point" I made in my Post ALSO! :eek:

If you think that my Post is "hostile" and that I am acting "furious" then you have no idea as to what true "HOSTILITY" and "FURY" IS!

Today's Christians are sooo super "sensitive". that they all expect the rest of us to be a bunch of "politically correct pacifistic wimps" - saying nothing that may upset their "sensitivities". After raising seven children, I learned long ago - if the truth hurts, so be it. [Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?] :confused:

Since you haven't answered any of the points brought up by brother Steve or myself, you may rest assured that you will not receive any more "hostile" Posts from myself, unless of course, you start spouting off clear heresy, etc. :cool:

Mind and Body 04-11-2009 11:16 AM

Quit knit-picking, George. The "Holy" in "holy cow!" is lowercase, capitalized only because it was at the beginning of the sentence. You are just being ignorant if you try to act as if I was insinuating that any cow is Holy. You for some reason don't like me, even though I have no objections to your response to my posts (other than your hostility), so I should have known that you would find anything to yip at me about. I'll leave if you want me to.

Winman 04-11-2009 11:47 AM

Mind and Body

Actually, saying things like "holy cow" is much worse than you might think. I am not being judgemental here, I have used words like this many times, but I try to be very careful not to do so anymore. It is pretty easy to use phrases like this, because we hear them so much day to day.

But sayings like this are actually blasphemy. The definition of blasphemy is:

1) slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name

2) impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty

Now, #1 is easy. We all know to speak evil of God is blasphemy. But the phrase you used would come under #2.

There is only one who is Holy, and that is God.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Only God is holy, perfect, and without sin. And to call a cow or any other thing holy is actually disrespectful and irreverent. The word Holy applies to only one, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who died to pay our sins.

Like I said, not judging you, just giving you something to think about.

From what I read, George is simply asking you to repsond to questions and points himself and Steve Monohan brought up.

And I am not defending Brother George, I am new here and don't really know him, although I enjoy reading many of his posts. I don't see him as hostile, I see him as someone who takes the scriptures very seriously, and that is a GOOD thing.

Years ago when I went to college we had a real no-nonsense professor. He was tough, and he had us all intimidated. He told you something once, and you better be paying attention, he did not repeat himself. When he told you to write something down, you better write it quick, because it was coming down and something new was coming up. We probably covered 2 to 3 times as much material in that class than we did in any others, he pushed you right along. There was no talking or goofing off in that class.

By the way, this professor had been a drill sergeant in the Marine Corps. It showed.

Anyway, I remember the end of the year. To our surprise he told us all that we were great students and that he was priviliged to teach us. He almost had tears in his eyes. It was shocking, coming from this man of stone.

So, do not mistake someone being zealous and serious as being hostile or cold-hearted.

Mind and Body 04-11-2009 11:55 AM

But God, knowing my heart, knows that I think no-one other than Him to be Holy. It is perhaps not good to say things like "holy cow!" but does God not know my intent and that I am not sincere in my saying? Oh, and thank you for your genteel, reasonable, and kind post. I really wish Brother George would post in such a way. Is that too much to ask? There is a difference from being zealous and just being rude.

George 04-11-2009 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 17989)
Quit knit-picking, George. The "Holy" in "holy cow!" is lowercase, capitalized only because it was at the beginning of the sentence. You are just being ignorant if you try to act as if I was insinuating that any cow is Holy. You for some reason don't like me, even though I have no objections to your response to my posts (other than your hostility), so I should have known that you would find anything to yip at me about. I'll leave if you want me to.


Mind and Body,

"holy cow" is a lousy expression for a Christian. I wasn't "insinuating" anything, other than your choice of words demonstrates both "ignorance" and "insensitivity" on your part in the use of the word "HOLY". To use the Biblical word "Holy" in a pejorative sense is irresponsible and immature. And the fact that you "STILL JUSTIFIED" your use of the term, even AFTER brother Winman pointed out to you (in a gentle manner) that using the word as you did is blasphemous, proves that you will not receive instruction, no matter WHO instructs you, and no matter HOW that instruction is given.

"Liking" you or not "liking" you has nothing to do with my responses to you. It's not a matter of "LIKE" - it's the fact that as an "educator" you have displayed an amazing amount of ignorance of the church of God and its history since its beginning, and you seem to have a "chip on your shoulder" whenever questioned.

You can stay or leave, it's your decision; but I will remind you (again) - you have yet to respond to any of the points that I brought up, other than to protest my "hostility" towards you. :confused: :hurt:

If you are going to Post on an "adult" Forum, you should be more careful when making statements that are not factual, and you should try to ask intelligent questions, instead fatuous questions for which there are no meaningful answers.

Winman 04-11-2009 12:10 PM

Mind and Body

Well, why don't you take the first step, and give a respectful and sincere answer to the questions he asked. Then I am sure you will receive a respectful and sincere answer.

And you've heard the saying, "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind"? That is straight from the Bible.

Prov 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

John the Baptist probably seemed rude when he said:

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

And the Lord himself may have seemed rude when he spoke to the scribes and Pharisees.

Matt 23: 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mind and Body 04-11-2009 09:09 PM

I'll say it again, because you didn't hear me the first time: I have nothing to say about the points you made, George. Scripture--not you, but Scripture--has silenced me. I will not say anything to you again, and I ask that you do likewise, unless you have anything to say that isn't either ad hominem and pointless or arrogant and rude.

Bro. Parrish 04-12-2009 04:36 AM

Brethren, this is getting ugly. Would it be out of line for me to suggest we cease with the personal attacks on each other... clubbing each other with hurtful comments is not going to solve anything.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. -- Eph. 4:32

(message delivered, ducking now and slipping out the back door)... :rolleyes:

George 04-12-2009 10:05 AM

Re: " Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 18029)
Brethren, this is getting ugly. Would it be out of line for me to suggest we cease with the personal attacks on each other... clubbing each other with hurtful comments is not going to solve anything.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. -- Eph. 4:32

(message delivered, ducking now and slipping out the back door)... :rolleyes:


Aloha brother Parish,

I appreciate your concern, but have you any way of knowing (for sure) WHO is our "brother" (or "sister") in Christ on this Forum? Or WHO may be a "sheep in wolves clothing"; or a "False Teacher"; or a "Heretic"; or just some Christian that is spouting off without having any solid grounding in the Scriptures? We get one of the above at least once a week - and sometimes more often!

Have you noticed that you and I have NEVER "clashed" - not even once (even though we obviously have very different personalities and concerns?) Have you ever noticed that I have never "clashed" with brother Chette (and yet you have)? I have never "clashed" with brothers (or sisters) Biblestudent, Bibleprotecter, Chette, CKG, Cody1611, Debau, drBible1611, Forrest, fundy, Gord, Here Am I, JMWHALEN, Kiwi Christian, KJB Princess, Luke, Manny Rodriguez, Paladin54, pbiwolski, peopleoftheway, pneuby, Steve Schwenke, Steven Avery, Stvvv1611, swordsman, TheBibleSender, tonybones2112, Traditional Anglican, Vendetta Ride, Will Kinney, Winman, for example.

I would almost guarantee you that If I were to sit down and talk with these brethren, that there are areas where we would agree to "disagree", I wouldn't "brow beat" them over our differences (as long as it wasn't clear and unmistakable "heresy").

Brother Sammy Tabuena (Biblestudent) and I have had a couple of "differences" and yet we still fellowship with each other.

I think that brother MC1171611 have had a couple of differences (my memory is "fuzzy"), but there isn't any "bad blood" between us (as far as I know - and not on my part).

Brother Tim and I have had a few disagreements (some stronger than others), but we have always walked away from our "differences" (most of the time still not "settled" between us), still respecting each other, and without malice or rancor. I can say, in all sincerity, that even though he and I differ on several issues (of importance to each of us), that I could sit down and have a cup of tea (coffee for him), or I could pray and worship with him any time. HOW do explain that? WHAT is the difference then?

Brother Stephenos (Stephen) and I "CLASHED" big time soon after he came on the Forum, and yet today, we not only get along, but I don't hesitate to call him a brother in Christ, and with whom I could also pray and worship.

What is going on then? It can't be just differences in "personalities", because I am as different from some of these brethren as you could get. There has to be something more then, and I believe it is the fact that I have a very low tolerance for Pharisees (religious dictators & bigots) and proud, vain, and arrogant "Academic types" of Christians (know-it-alls), who when pressed or questioned are proven to be either ignorant, or worse, liars!

There is a third "type" of Christian that I have difficulty with (and there are lots more of them today than 30, or 40, or 50 years ago), and that is the Christian who is neither a Pharisee or an "elitist" (scholar/scribe), but who looks up to Christian "Celebrities" and relies upon them for knowledge, discernment, and understanding of Scriptural issues and matters, rather than looking to the Bible itself and relying on the Holy Spirit to teach them.

We are told to: [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.] NOT study the commentators; NOT study some Christian "celebrities" books; NOT study some preachers "sermons"; NOT study "Christian" Radio or "Christian" TV! We are instructed (NAY COMMANDED) to STUDY THE WORD OF TRUTH!

And when I see someone on the Forum constantly recommending "men" (Christian "celebrities") or men's books, tapes, dvd's, etc. instead of the words of God (i.e. the Bible), and especially when one of those men recommended is a "False Teacher", it really gets to me.

And when someone starts asking cleverly "loaded questions", which when examined are non sequiturs, asinine, or just plain silly or stupid; or if they start making statements that are untrue and that cannot be backed up with either FACTS or SCRIPTURE (depending on the issue) - I become "suspicious" that someone has shown up who just possibly may have a "personal agenda" and who may not be sincerely interested in edifying or being edified, I take the Sword of The Lord (NOT the "Fundamentalist Newspaper"!) and parry with them with the Scriptures. And if they are NOT sincere, they soon start "squealing" and "crying" like little babies when lightly cut with the word.

Coddling crybaby Christians is as bad as coddling a spoiled child - it does absolutely no good, and there is no "profit", in trying mollify a "extra-sensitive" Christian, anymore than there is anything to be gained in trying to "mollify" a spoiled brat! And since I cannot (and would not) "spank" them physically (their NOT my children), I joust with them with words (this is NOT A GAME with me) mostly God's words.

Those Christians who are mature and sincere, can discuss and possibly even debate spiritual issues, without getting their "feelings" hurt. Those who are immature and childish always cry "foul". They either cannot or will not discuss spiritual issues reasonably, and when presented with some error in their thinking, they always continue to disregard the Scriptures, justify their continued disobedience, and then accuse me of being "hard", or "rude", or "hostile", or "arrogant" , etc., etc.

If you will notice - there are many subjects on the Forum that I will not engage in, but when it comes to an attack on The Book; recommending false teachers or their works; or newcomers spouting off about things that they know little or nothing about, that is another matter.

There are many "guests" here that never Post; I wouldn't want them to think that we tolerate Bible correctors; hereticks (or their works); or people who make statements that are not true, or who ask ridiculous or clever questions that stir up trouble (i.e. troublemakers). If we don't "contend" with these people it will soon be chaos and anarchy on the Forum! :eek:

Bro. Parrish 04-12-2009 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 18032)
There are many "guests" here that never Post; I wouldn't want them to think that we tolerate Bible correctors; hereticks (or their works); or people who make statements that are not true...

George,
Rest assured my brother, anytime we get any slimy Bible correctors on this forum I will always put the gloves on and join you in the ring (we will tag team them together)... :boxing: Brother Chette can be the referee... :)

Mind and Body 04-12-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 18029)
Brethren, this is getting ugly. Would it be out of line for me to suggest we cease with the personal attacks on each other... clubbing each other with hurtful comments is not going to solve anything.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. -- Ephesians 4:32

Amen, Brother. George, because I would rather stay on this Forum for learning and researching purposes, I ask you to forgive me for my stupid questions and tone and I will forgive you for coming off a bit hostile, deal? You are very Biblically literate and I know that you can be a source of great Christian insight, so I ask that you forgive me.

*extends hand...* Friends? Want to shake on it?

George 04-12-2009 05:35 PM

Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 18035)
Amen, Brother. George, because I would rather stay on this Forum for learning and researching purposes, I ask you to forgive me for my stupid questions and tone and I will forgive you for coming off a bit hostile, deal? You are very Biblically literate and I know that you can be a source of great Christian insight, so I ask that you forgive me.

*extends hand...* Friends? Want to shake on it?

Aloha mind and Body,

That's a deal! Brother Stephen and I had a far worst "start" than you and I. I accept your apology, and if I have offended you, I also apologize. I did not purposely set out to offend you or to be offensive. We all can learn from each other - if we seek the mind of Christ (through His Holy word) on spiritual issues.

I'm willing to put these disagreements behind us and make a fresh start. :)

Forrest 04-12-2009 06:55 PM

Psalms 133:1... "A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"


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