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chette777 07-01-2009 08:17 PM

The Ordinances
 
1Corithians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Could the ordinances Paul is referring to here be the letter he and Barnabas were sent to deliver to each of the Gentile churches in Acts 15. Paul and Jesus never refer to the Lord's Table and Baptism as ordinances in the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Webster's Dictionary meaning of Ordinance states: 2. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action; a statute, law, regulation, rescript, or accepted usage; an edict or decree; esp., a local law enacted by a municipal government; as, a municipal ordinance.

So "decrees for to keep" indicate some form of ordinance that was to be kept Acts 21:25 supports this as does the original counsel meeting in Acts 15

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

and for after 1Cor11:2 Paul goes into talking about prayer. Baptism never comes into view in this chapter and later the remarks, 1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, would be something Paul privately got from the Lord during his time in Damascus and Arabia. would indicate the ordinances of Verse 2 was the letter from the Jerusalem counsel. for if chapter 11 is progressive in Paul's thinking he first clarifies Prayer by whom and how, then the coming together for the Lord's tables, then details on How the Lord told Paul about the Lord's table and how it is to be observed.

Now never anywhere in Paul's writing s does he give what we call the ordinance of Baptism or clarify at any times that Doctrine of Baptism by water immersion. this is no indication that it wasn't practiced or observed. but the Lord Table and water Baptism is connected with the term ordinances. and the term delivered would be a weak basis to establish an doctrine of ordinances. for Paul delivered the letter from the Jerusalem counsel, he delivered money to the Jerusalem saints, he delivered some unto Satan.

How is it we have come to call Baptism and the Lord's table Ordinances when in the Bible they are never called ordinances?

So I have some to the conclusion Verse 2 is pointing to the letter from the Jerusalem counsel and not referring to the Lord's Table and Baptism as we have come to call them ordinances.

Biblestudent 07-03-2009 02:29 AM

Bro. Chette,
1. The Lord's Supper is in the context of the "ordinances" (1 Corinthians 11:2).
2. The "decrees" of Acts 16:4 and Acts 15:20 were of James and the rest of the Twelve. They were not what Paul said to be "the ordinances AS I DELIVERED UNTO YOU".
There are many "ordinances" in the Bible (including Col. 2:14-16), but Paul is talking about the ordinances that he (PAUL) delivered for the church to observe.
3. An "ordinance", as defined in Exodus (in chapter 12, for example) and other OT passages, is an "order", "a memorial", and a "service". Paul reminds the church to observe those ordinances - memorial services that he ordered to be kept - that he received from the Lord to be delivered by him to the church in this age.
4. Since he did give an "order" to keep the Lord's supper in the same chapter he mentions "ordinances" (1 Cor. 11:2), then the Lord's supper is one of those ordinances. Since it is plural ("ordinancES"), then it must be at least two. If one is Lord's supper, what's the other one?

chette777 07-03-2009 03:51 AM

Lets take Chapter 11 and look at it verse by verse.

vs1 instruction to follow him as he does Christ
vs2 He praises them for remembering him (not Jesus) and keeping the ordinances he delivered unto them (I believe it was the letter to abstain from blood, strangled animals, things offered to idol and fornication. and according to your understanding he is speaking of the Lord's supper which he does not take up until verse17)
Vv3-16 Paul speaks of Authority of the head and shamefulness if a woman prophecies or prays with uncovered head or a man does so covered. (if I follow you logic of uniting vs 2 to vs 17 and beyond. then this is the first ordinance the ordinance of proper prophecy and prayer)
Vv 17-22 speak if the divisions in the fellowship and impropriety of coming together for the Lord's Supper the bread and the cup.
Vv23-26 Paul establishes when and where he received and delivered unto them and he then narrates what it was he had received the info of the Upper room the last night he was alive. and that this supper was to be done in remembrance..
Vv27-34 Paul also continues to show the improper attitude towards other in the body and that each man judge himself then take and eat. and that it should all be done at once as one body.

Why do we make Baptism one of the two when Paul never, as he does the Lord's Table, make mention of Baptism as something he delivered unto them?

plus vs 23 is a totally different delivery than that mentioned in vs 2. other wise he did not need to mention it again.

The Gospels upper room discourses
Matt 26 gives no instruction to do
Mark 14 gives no instruction to do
Luke 22 says this do in remembrance of me as does Paul, it is obvious it is a memorial.

But vs 23 makes the fact that Paul is not referring to verse 2 for they are two different deliver unto you statements. we have made it say that is is the Lord's Table without any regards to what was delivered by the hand of Paul to every Gentile church that he visited. which was just as inspired by God than any other word of the scriptures.

Many Christians are not following the four decrees set forth by the Jerusalem counsel and why is that? are churches are full of people committing sexual immorality, being members of secret societies drinking blood (even symbolic form) here in the Philippines Dugoan(SP? Blood) dish is eaten by Christians, Animal are sold at the store that have not had their blood removed yet we buy it without question.

I am not saying Paul didn't receive or deliver the Lord's supper he says so in Vs23-26. but Verse two seems to be more inline with another set of ordinances Plural. but 1Cor 11:23 only covers an ordinance of the Lord's Supper (that is what we call it though it is never called that by Paul or Jesus). The only plural ordinances we have record of Paul every delivering to the churches including Corinth is the Letter from Jerusalem.

The first use of the word Ordinance in context of Exodus 12:14 is in line with the word Statute. the Hebrew word chuqqah, khook-kaw' never means "remembrance, service or memorial" it does mean appointed, custom, manner, ordinance, site, statute the same as our English word

Sonny you did however do a great job in defending a long standing traditional teaching that the Lord's Supper is an ordinance.

Ac 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Just so you don't think they were limited in their deleivery they went beyond antioch Syria and Cilicia to Derbe and Lystra and chapter 21 says the Gentiles meaning all gentile believers and they delievered these decreees when they "went through the cities"

Ac 16:1 ¶ Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Biblestudent 07-04-2009 01:59 AM

Brother, here's what I see:

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1. By context, in the same chapter, it seems that it would be a stretch to make 1 Corinthians 11:2 to refer to Acts 15:20. The nearer context to 1 Corinthians 11:2 is 1 Corinthians 11:23.

2. We can also notice the parallelism between the two verses:

1 Corinthians 11:2...keep the ordinances, AS I DELIVERED THEM TO YOU
1 Corinthians 11:23 FOR I HAVE RECEIVED OF THE LORD THAT WHICH ALSO I DELIVERED UNTO YOU, That the Lord Jesus ...
took bread


3. Not only that, in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul is talking about the ordinances which he RECEIVED OF THE LORD and that which he himself DELIVERED to the church.

The Acts 15 letters were received from the Jewish apostles, and it was not delivered BY Paul but BY the Twelve through Paul.

4. The context can not be ignored. Concerning Acts 21 and Acts 15, it's very important to note WHO is speaking.

Acts 21:25 writings were NOT the ordinances received by Paul from the Lord. They were were "written" especially by James and all the elders present who said "we have written and concluded that the Gentiles observe certain things".

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him,...
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 15:13, 19, 20 make it clear that its James who made this "sentence" with his Jewish "brethren".

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

These were written to the Gentiles, but, this were not the "ordinances" which Paul "received of the Lord" and "delivered" to the church.

Furthermore, Matthew 26 Lord's Supper was delivered by Jesus TO THE TWELVE and will be observed by Kingdom believers AS THE TWELVE DELIVERED IT TO THEM.

Paul is emphasizing in 1 Corinthians 11 that the ORDINANCES that he RECEIVED OF THE LORD (by the direct revelation, and not after men) and DELIVERED TO THE CHURCH are to be observed AS HE (PAUL) DELIVERED IT, and not as Christ (before the cross) or the Twelve delivered it.

5. Also, Acts 15 and Acts 21 mentions no "ORDINANCE" whatsoever.:)

Biblestudent 07-04-2009 02:04 AM

On the terminology "Lord's Supper" and "Water Baptism"
 
Brother Chette,
I just use the term "Lord's Supper" for ease of reference.
Aslo, I "swordsearched" (credits to Brother Brandon;)) the term "Water Baptism" and here is the result that I got:

"Sorry, no matching verses found (KJV)."

Biblestudent 07-04-2009 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23164)

Many Christians are not following the four decrees set forth by the Jerusalem counsel and why is that? are churches are full of people committing sexual immorality, being members of secret societies drinking blood (even symbolic form) here in the Philippines Dugoan(SP? Blood) dish is eaten by Christians, Animal are sold at the store that have not had their blood removed yet we buy it without question.

Fornication - Paul gave specific instructions: "Abstain", etc.
Idolatry - Paul gave specific instructions: "Flee", etc.
Blood - Paul's command: ______________:confused:
Things Strangled - Paul's command: _______________:confused:

Paul was silent, but he DID GIVE INSTRUCTIONS CONCERNING FOOD:

1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

So I don't eat dinugoan, not because James (or Noah or Moses) told me not to eat blood, but because Paul told me this:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

But concerning blood and things strangled, I say this with Paul:

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

chette777 07-04-2009 06:14 AM

thanks Sammy very interesting info you gave.

JOHN G 07-04-2009 09:58 AM

Happy Fourth......
 
1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was baptized.
Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized…

Paul was baptized
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

The disciples baptized people
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Many were baptized on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Samaritans were baptized
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

The Ethiopian eunuch was baptized
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Lydia and her household were baptized
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household…..

The Philippian jailer and his household were baptized
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Crispus and many Corinthians were baptized
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

About 12 disciples at Ephesus were baptized
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas were baptized by Paul personally
1Cor 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cor 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Cor. 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:


1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.


Christians don't have to do anything, except believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Christians should do many things in obedience to God's Word.

Off to Carowinds......
Have a great day ya'll.

Steve Schwenke 07-11-2009 05:24 PM

John G
Thanks for the post. Well said!

chette777 07-11-2009 05:30 PM

You can say it any way you like. Only the Lords Table is connected to Ordinances.

Never is the term ordinance, Decree for to keep, mentioned any where within 20 verses any direction to water baptism in the writings of Paul, who is the Apostle to the Gentiles.

So How did we get to the point of having two ordinances one of which is never mentioned to be one and forsake the four "decree for to keep" given to the Gentile converts and was delivered by the hand of Paul to "every city" where he planted churches?

Steve Schwenke 07-11-2009 10:18 PM

I think the problem here is how the word ordinance is being used. I don't think we are using it in the same way that you think we are.
An ordinance is simply an established rite or ceremony; or a rule established by authority. (Websters 1828). The rule here is established by the authority of the Holy Bible (AV1611). It is something we observe as a rule - the exception would be for those Christians who choose not to be baptized. it is their choice (a poor one IMO). It doesn't make them any less saved, or me more saved. But it is the established practise based upon the examples listed in Scripture, as John G has listed for us.

This appears to me to be a problem in semantics.

chette777 07-12-2009 12:52 AM

It may be semantics but it is also the fact the KJV Bible never uses the word ordinance at all for Baptism. the Bible is to be the basis of doctrine not our words for which we use to define our doctrines.

tonybones2112 07-12-2009 02:45 AM

What The Grace Of God Will NOT Allow
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23099)
1Corithians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Could the ordinances Paul is referring to here be the letter he and Barnabas were sent to deliver to each of the Gentile churches in Acts 15. Paul and Jesus never refer to the Lord's Table and Baptism as ordinances in the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Webster's Dictionary meaning of Ordinance states: 2. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action; a statute, law, regulation, rescript, or accepted usage; an edict or decree; esp., a local law enacted by a municipal government; as, a municipal ordinance.

So "decrees for to keep" indicate some form of ordinance that was to be kept Acts 21:25 supports this as does the original counsel meeting in Acts 15

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

and for after 1Cor11:2 Paul goes into talking about prayer. Baptism never comes into view in this chapter and later the remarks, 1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, would be something Paul privately got from the Lord during his time in Damascus and Arabia. would indicate the ordinances of Verse 2 was the letter from the Jerusalem counsel. for if chapter 11 is progressive in Paul's thinking he first clarifies Prayer by whom and how, then the coming together for the Lord's tables, then details on How the Lord told Paul about the Lord's table and how it is to be observed.

Now never anywhere in Paul's writing s does he give what we call the ordinance of Baptism or clarify at any times that Doctrine of Baptism by water immersion. this is no indication that it wasn't practiced or observed. but the Lord Table and water Baptism is connected with the term ordinances. and the term delivered would be a weak basis to establish an doctrine of ordinances. for Paul delivered the letter from the Jerusalem counsel, he delivered money to the Jerusalem saints, he delivered some unto Satan.

How is it we have come to call Baptism and the Lord's table Ordinances when in the Bible they are never called ordinances?

So I have some to the conclusion Verse 2 is pointing to the letter from the Jerusalem counsel and not referring to the Lord's Table and Baptism as we have come to call them ordinances.

Mt 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I'm not going to address in detail water baptism, we have a thread for that already, I will say Paul's commission was not water baptism to make a "kingdom of priests" of israel, the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven(Restored Israel) but the gospel of Christ crucified apart from any work that is now made available to Gentiles equal in His Body. Paul's ministry in the book of Acts was "to the Jew first, and also the Greek(proselytes). Why then did Paul baptize Jews? He had to, it is the first sign of an apostle(Mark 16). Water baptism is not operative or effications without signs following, and the Jews require a sign, I don't. Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.

FInd me one other Christian who believes and practices that. Give it a try sometime. Not a weekly or monthly or yearly event, try remembering the skin whipped from His Body and then nailed to a cross every time you eat.

EW Bullinger stated the Body of Christ began at Acts 28, he was wrong, the signs and ordinances ceased at Acts 28.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

I practice NO ordinances of water baptism, the "Lord's supper", nor teach any, and no man on this planet, no Baptist, Protestant, Catholic, or cultist is allowed to judge me for it. God's Grace will not allow it.

God's Grace will not allow what can be seen:

Water baptism
The "Lord's supper".
Tongues
Signs
Wonders
Healing
Handling snakes
Dress codes
"Church letters"
"Foot washing"

There is one thing and one thing only God's grace will allow:

The preaching of the cross. If you add anything to that, welcome to Galatia my friend, there is a MOTEL 6 right up the road.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

There is your "great commission", and it begins with your next door neighbor, not 10,000 miles away.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

Steve Schwenke 07-12-2009 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23765)
Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.

Do you have a Scripture for that?

I Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. [Oh, so it IS legitimate to call it the Lord's supper!]
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [So the Lord's supper is distinct from our own meals!]
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [if you want to eat a meal, eat it at home. the Lord's supper is a distinct memorial, not a big fellowship gathering to stuff ourselves!]
23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [Yikes! this instruction is coming directly from the Lord!!!]
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. [v. 23-26 are rehearsals of what happened on that night before Jesus was crucified]
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [now we move into the present instruction concerning the Lord's supper]
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul makes a distinction between our ordinary "fellowship" meals, and a particular meal that HE terms "the Lord's supper." He uses the terms "this bread, this cup, that bread, that cup" to distinguish it from all others. He is speaking of a particular meal that we as believers are to partake of. We are to partake of it for the expressed purpose in v. 26.
The passage condemns those who were pretending to observe "the Lord's supper" without consideration for the poor who could bring nothing to the table. So the rich excluded the poor; the rich stuffed themselves, and the poor went hungry in their pretend observation.
Paul corrects that, reminds them that (1) there IS a thing called "the Lord's supper", (2) it is to be observed by all in the church, with no regard to economy, (3) it was a simple observation that reminds us of the broken body of Christ, and the blood that was shed, which are seen in the bread and grape juice.

Bro. Parrish 07-12-2009 11:52 AM

Bro. Steve, you have to bear with Tony, he is as confused on the Lord's Supper as he is on Baptism. He is one of the very few hyperdispensationalists on the board and he hacks on Baptists now and then but he will march into the flames right beside you on the KJV issue, so please bear with him brother. If you really want to see the scorched ground and mother of all threads on baptism it's here, but if you bump it the thing might explode:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1204

chette777 07-12-2009 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 23783)
Bro. Steve, you have to bear with Tony, he is as confused on the Lord's Supper as he is on Baptism. He is one of the very few hyperdispensationalists on the board and he hacks on Baptists now and then but he will march into the flames right beside you on the KJV issue, so please bear with him brother. If you really want to see the scorched ground and mother of all threads on baptism it's here, but if you bump it the thing might explode:

Parish,

Ever hear of the old adage you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar?

look back to your quote i have underlined your vinegar. if you ever want to help edify and help try not using such in your posts.

you posted two thing that needed not been said at all and would of made for peace. if infer he is confused (personal opinion) he hacks (personal attack) both these terms belittled him and you knew they would.

so does that sound like a true Christians Character?

If he is causing division or teaching a false teaching what are you to do?

Argue? ridicule?

your are to rebuke. if he doesn't respond you are to not have anything to do with him.

or you are just to press the ignore button in your cp and have don't fellowship via the post.

you show no christian character what so ever? so let me ask you, "Why don't we see Christ in you?"

Bro. Parrish 07-12-2009 06:59 PM

Chette, thanks for your comments and perspective.
I try to balance truth with love the best I can. If I have posted an UNTRUTH about anyone here you are welcome to point it out as you see fit. My post is not all negative, but if you choose to only SEE and HIGHLIGHT the negative in someone's posts, I cannot help that. Your advice seems to be to burn a bridge, press the ignore button and have nothing to do with Tony, but I choose not to do that with him, in fact I have found common ground with him on many issues such as the inerrancy of the King James Bible which we all love and defend. We don't have to all agree on EVERYTHING in order to avoid burning bridges. Please remember that. And by the way, please notice I choose to still call you brother, even though you no longer call me brother, and I choose to spell your name correctly when I address you. God bless, will pray for your ministry. :)

chette777 07-12-2009 07:55 PM

it is not about truth or untruth. It is about doing things to edify rather than tear down.

If you don't like what any individual says the best thing don't reply.

as long as you cause division I will treat as I am to by what the Bible says.

Steve,

there you go. are you able to read my heart? do you think it is all about you? I did post to Parish.

I could be wrong but if you are focused on you, how can you help anyone else? if you focus on your words that cause dissent as being words of wisdom or admonition think again before you post. you and the others are the only ones who can stop the aggressive posting. if it doesn't stop this site will be shut down. then how will you ever help?

Let the Holy Ghost work. If you are convicted then do your best to correct yourself. if not let the post speak to others as well. but don't assume anything.

I gave a reply to your question in another post. I used terms like you guys and others that is all inclusive words. but I haven't been to pointed to point out any ones error. I am trying to let God do that. so either listen to him or listen you your heart (which like mine is deceitful above all measure). You and others are being led by your flesh to the victory of Satan not to the edifying of God people.

ok get the thread back on topic now.

chette777 07-12-2009 08:14 PM

Oh Bro drop it ok. you are putting in a stirring stick. if you start stirring the muck it will stink.

get back tot he thread topic and drop all else.

chette777 07-12-2009 08:26 PM

yes it did. I think we have an understanding now.

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23772)
Do you have a Scripture for that?

I Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. [Oh, so it IS legitimate to call it the Lord's supper!]
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [So the Lord's supper is distinct from our own meals!]
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [if you want to eat a meal, eat it at home. the Lord's supper is a distinct memorial, not a big fellowship gathering to stuff ourselves!]
23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [Yikes! this instruction is coming directly from the Lord!!!]
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. [v. 23-26 are rehearsals of what happened on that night before Jesus was crucified]
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [now we move into the present instruction concerning the Lord's supper]
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul makes a distinction between our ordinary "fellowship" meals, and a particular meal that HE terms "the Lord's supper." He uses the terms "this bread, this cup, that bread, that cup" to distinguish it from all others. He is speaking of a particular meal that we as believers are to partake of. We are to partake of it for the expressed purpose in v. 26.
The passage condemns those who were pretending to observe "the Lord's supper" without consideration for the poor who could bring nothing to the table. So the rich excluded the poor; the rich stuffed themselves, and the poor went hungry in their pretend observation.
Paul corrects that, reminds them that (1) there IS a thing called "the Lord's supper", (2) it is to be observed by all in the church, with no regard to economy, (3) it was a simple observation that reminds us of the broken body of Christ, and the blood that was shed, which are seen in the bread and grape juice.

Sorry my Baptist buddy, I don't reply to banned former members who also can't understand Isaiah 28:9-13.

Grace and peace

Tony

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23821)
Parish,

Ever hear of the old adage you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar?

look back to your quote i have underlined your vinegar. if you ever want to help edify and help try not using such in your posts.

you posted two thing that needed not been said at all and would of made for peace. if infer he is confused (personal opinion) he hacks (personal attack) both these terms belittled him and you knew they would.

so does that sound like a true Christians Character?

If he is causing division or teaching a false teaching what are you to do?

Argue? ridicule?

your are to rebuke. if he doesn't respond you are to not have anything to do with him.

or you are just to press the ignore button in your cp and have don't fellowship via the post.

you show no christian character what so ever? so let me ask you, "Why don't we see Christ in you?"

Chette, one reason I stopped arguing after the long messages I've spent hours researching and typing is simply because I am NOT going to read people's Bible for them. Each man(and woman) is going to have to be fully persuaded in their own minds. If someone is going to be confronted with the clear Scripture with Scripture teaching on a given precept and then stay with their Baptist or otherwise denominational teaching over the Scriptures, I'm not going to slash anyone's tires. Bro. Parrish insisted on parroting Ruckman's lie that "hyper-dry cleaners" are "out to destroy Baptist churches". Baptists are doing quite well with their own compromises on the version issue and internal squabbles in destroying their own churches themselves with my, Pastor Jordan, or Stam's help if that were our purpose, which it's not .

Grace and peace to you brother

Tony

Biblestudent 07-16-2009 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 24093)
Bro. Parrish insisted on parroting Ruckman's lie that "hyper-dry cleaners" are "out to destroy Baptist churches".

Well, Brother Tony, it's actually TRUE, but may not be always true. If it's no longer true now, well, it was true in the past -- although again, not all.

Jassy 07-16-2009 03:44 PM

I don't think I'll affiliate or align myself with any particular church of today. I can't say I'm a Baptist - because I've never baptized anyone. I can't tolerate manmade teachings, such as Calvinism. Some people might think that I'm being too picky and choosy - and that I ought to join SOME church, just for the fellowshipping with believers. Yet, every time I've stepped foot into a church, I get the oddest, most UNcomfortable feeling that these people are NOT believers. They're just church-goers - self-holified attenders of a church building, not the Body of Christ.

More important to me is Bible reading and study and prayer. Rather than attend a church which would immerse me in possibly false teachings; today, it seems more adviseable to seek a small group of believers to meet at home.

The best I can do is pray for the Lord to lead me to the right church - one where I can fully understand what is being preached (I'd need someone skilled in sign language) and where what is being preached is the TRUTH.

Jassy

greenbear 07-16-2009 04:50 PM

Jassy, sometimes it sounds like you are me! I've noticed this from back when we first joined this board a day or so apart from each other. Perhaps the Lord will lead you to a home church where someone is proficient in ASL.

Just like I've never before found a church I could attend (since I learned what's what, that is), I have also not found another christian forum that I could stomach. This one is not like any others that I have seen out there. Most of the active guys here have made it into a place where for the most part you can discuss and learn from the word of God without having to sift through garbage to get at it. Praise God for the addition of PaulB, Ripdood, Cloudwalker, and Brother-Smith, among others. And POTW is back, too!

Jassy 07-16-2009 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24170)
Jassy, sometimes it sounds like you are me! I've noticed this from back when we first joined this board a day or so apart from each other. Perhaps the Lord will lead you to a home church where someone is proficient in ASL.

Just like I've never before found a church I could attend (since I learned what's what, that is), I have also not found another christian forum that I could stomach. This one is not like any others that I have seen out there. Most of the active guys here have made it into a place where for the most part you can discuss and learn from the word of God without having to sift through garbage to get at it. Praise God for the addition of PaulB, Ripdood, Cloudwalker, and Brother-Smith, among others. And POTW is back, too!

Amen sis! God's hand was in it - as His hand is in the lives of all believers. I am very thankful that we met and it's very interesting that we finally found a Forum that is accountable to the TRUTH and is not afraid to speak it! It's gotta be the hand of God that we joined just a day or so apart and we are so much alike in our beliefs and mindset (on Christ).

I also am praising God for the new additions to the Forum - it is such a blessing to have brothers and sisters that uplift the truth!

Jassy

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 11:14 PM

I've always understood that an "ordinance" is what we would call a ceremony today.

The only 2 ceremonies given for the church age is baptism and the Lord's Supper.

At first glance that is my humble thoughts, but I am interested in looking more into this.

chette777 07-19-2009 01:27 AM

Amanda,

maybe a new set of eyes would do us good. Have you ever found a bible verse in Paul's writings where he tells us how to baptize, when, and most importantly he calls it an ordinance?

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 06:54 AM

Good morning Chette :)

Quote:

Have you ever found a bible verse in Paul's writings where he tells us how to baptize....?
Paul did not write this, but this passage is a great example of "how" to baptize

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


John 3:23
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.



Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Water Baptism is to be a figure of the Spirit Baptism...

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


At least that is my understanding to the "How"...Looking forward to studying the when and why's :)

chette777 07-20-2009 08:44 PM

yeah but the Gospel of Philip was the kingdom Gospel you will notice that Eunuch believes Jesus is God not that he died for his sins. the preaching of Jesus from Isa on was still proving that he was the Messiah to fulfill the scriptures that the Gentiles are reached with that gospel through the Jews. next chapter begins a whole new Gospel revelation by Paul.

The reason I asked for one by Paul was so we could establish a absolute on baptism seeing he is the Apostle to the gentile. I do practice it but i do not teach it as an ordinance or that it should be a new believers "first step of obedience" as some do.

I teach is as an Identification.

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 07:21 PM

Greetings Chette,

Quote:

The reason I asked for one by Paul was so we could establish a absolute on baptism seeing he is the Apostle to the gentile. I do practice it but i do not teach it as an ordinance or that it should be a new believers "first step of obedience" as some do.

I teach is as an Identification.
Hmmmm...ok...whatever floats your boat. :)


Quote:

Gospel of Philip was the kingdom Gospel
The Gospel of Philip!? What is the Gospel of Philip?
It seems all the world to me that he was preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

chette777 07-21-2009 11:19 PM

the gospel Philip preached up unto Acts 8 is the Kingdom Gospel that John the baptist and Jesus and the 12 preach.

the gospel of grace is the gospel Paul preached

The everlasting Gospel is preached by an angel in the tribulation

these are the three gospels found in the NT.

yes the death burial and resurrection are part of both the Kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace. but only under grace is it for the forgiveness of sins. under the kingdom gospel it was proof Jesus was the Jews Messiah.

Put kingdom gospel in your search engine of your Bible program and you will see the listings, then enter gospel of grace you will see they are different.

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 10:32 PM

Greetings Chette :)

We will have to disagree on the "gospel of Philip"...I do understand that Acts is a transistion book but there is no gospel of Philip in my opinion.

But, even so, I still think the verses I quoted apply.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


I find it hard to believe that Paul changed "how" to baptize and see nothing that suggests he did.

chette777 07-23-2009 05:34 AM

let me clarify, Philip preached "the gospel of the kingdom" or what is known as the "Kingdom Gospel", not the "gospel of Philip" nor the "Gospel of grace". I wasn't saying Phillip has his own gospel, I was saying he taught a gospel that was not the gospel of grace, which is the kingdom gospel.

now that should have cleared it all up Amanda. Never did I mean to cause you to think there was a "gospel of Philip".

that is correct Paul changed nothing concerning water baptism. Paul also gave no instruction or an example of water baptism during his ministry to establish it as a doctrine, teaching or an ordinance. he only confesses to have water baptized only a few and that water baptism was not why he was sent by God to the Gentiles.


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