Should Christians Search their hearts and confess sins?
 

I would like to see what you all think about this please take poll and give a response. if we sin and seeing our sins are forgiven should we confess them or not?

Chette, when Jesus Christ died on Calvary for your sins, and before He died he looked forward in time at your birth, your life, and your death, tell me something: At that time that He suffered for your sins and died for them, how many of them were still future?

Grace and peace brother

Tony

I am seeing where everyone stands on this issue. if you go to the forum on the lord's supper you will know why I am seeking to find out.

you didn't take the poll. I ask that all take the poll and place a comment. if you don't take the poll don't comment. I left a poll slot for you who don't want to say yes or no it is other

I voted yes.
I confess my sins to God as the Spirit convicts me of them.
I do not do this for salvation whatsoever, I already have that.
Some here have misunderstood another post I made about confession and fellowship with God. I guess I have a hard time expressing myself, and not enough time to make perfect posts, given that I am at the office... that's not an excuse, just a reason.

Confession doesn't alter my position in Christ, it doesn't add to my salvation.
What it does is draws me closer to Him. Like a father correcting his son, when the son admits he is wrong, and seeks to make changes towards the right guidance of the father, it brings the two closer together. I've experienced this with my earthly, physical father, and moreso with my heavenly Father as well.

I would like to quote part of Winman's post from the Lord's Supper thread, which accurately depicts my own belief:


When I got born again, ALL my sins were forgiven, past present and future, no doubt or question about that.
However, although sin is not imputed to me, I still sin in the flesh. Although I am passed from death into life, from condemnation into eternal life, there is still a penalty to pay for sin here in this present life (examples: 1Ti 3:6, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 19-20?).
The penalty is often in the form of detriment to your own spiritual growth, and sometimes hinders blessings from the Lord in the believer's life, or there are practical consequences in our lives, none of which changes our eternal destiny.
If I leave my sin unconfessed, it hinders me from a close fellowship, and makes it easier and easier to slip further into more sin. The more I am humble, convicted, contrite and even chastened, the closer I can be with Him.
Just like when I was a child: if I'd done something wrong against my parents, I would feel guilty, and would avoid them until the thing came out in the open and was dealt with. I couldn't fully enjoy the presence of the parent until my guilty conscience was dealt with.

Just like the adage: "Sin will keep you from the Book, but the Book will keep you from sin!"


Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

I voted yes with the same reason as BABB514's! :)

While we may examine ourselves to make sure we take the Lord’s supper worthily (1 Corinthians 11:27-29) and to see whether we’re in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) it is God who searches the hearts.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-28)

…..all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (Revelation 2:23)

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. (1 Chronicles 28:9)

Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. (Psalm 44:21)

O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. (Psalm 139:1)

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: (Psalm 139:23)

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jeremiah 17:10)

If you have sin in your life the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As others said, I believed that salvation is a Gift Received at Christ's Expense.

It is therefore now I have no condemnation. The bible said that I have no "mistakes", "failures" or "sins". Oftentimes, I've stumbled and failed and do sin. Thanks to God, I can come to God and confess all my filthiness to cleanse as I lay them down to Him.

I voted "Yes" also.

A few Scriptures...

In the times of Jesus' ministry, believers were encouraged to "confess" their sins. (Matthew 3:6, Mark 1:5)

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Galatians 2:7)

Interestingly, most of the times that the New Testament uses the word "confession" it is not in relation to sin. It is in relation to making a confession of your FAITH. (Romans 10:10 and 1 Timothy 6:13) Also, some uses of the word "confess" is also in relation to faith. (Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8, John 12:42, Romans 10:9-10, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:9, Philippians 2:11, 1 John 4:2,15)

Oddly enough, one of few Scriptures that state anything about confessing is not truly wrongdoing... it is more of a confession of our weaknesses (faults) - something which we might be inclined to sin in. James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

But that Scripture refers to confessing FAULTS to ONE ANOTHER, not to God. And the goal of this confession seems to be to PRAY for one another. I think that brings us closer together, as brethren in the Lord, if we can humble ourselves, and admit to our shortcomings with each other, and know that others will be praying for us.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 19:18 - And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
19 - Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

This seems to be talking about people confessing former sinful ways that they had, such as divination (astrology and such), because they burned the books that they had used in their "curious arts." I read somewhere that they also put idols that were made of various materials, into the fire, to melt them - and it totaled up in value to fifty thousand pieces of silver.

It certainly wouldn't seem to hurt us, to humble our pride and admit to things that we have done wrong or have fallen short on. Pride itself can be a sin. So the very thing that may prevent us from confessing sin, is the one that often trips us up!

Jassy

Chette, I voted yes, I just wanted to clarify for anyone coming from a Catholic background that we are confessing our sins to God and not an earthly priest or "middleman." We Bible believers cut out the middleman a long time ago.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 John 2:1

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5

Yes.
I confess my SINS to God.
I confess my FAULTS to a brother/sister whom I have erred against.

I know there are some Protestant "confessionals" going on in Baptist churches and other denominations. Sins are to be confessed directly to God, not to any human priest or Baptist pope. I personally believe that some past sin is better left unsaid (for another person's sake, and not thy own), but all sins ought to be acknowledged before God.

Well brother, I voted in the poll and my comment is there is no Scripture saying we confess sins that have already been forgiven. Confession of any kind to anybody is a work.

Lev. 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

Ps 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Being outside the Commonwealth of Israel and having received free grace and forgiveness of sin apart from the works of the Law, all my sins past, present, and future have been foregiven.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Speaking practically, there are many Christians who have sin in their own lives they refuse to acknowledge because they can't accept their sin or they enjoy it too much, let alone "confess". In 99 percent of cases you can pick these Christians out becasue they are always the most active in pointing out your "sins", or what they interpret to be sin.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

As Christians today we have one "confession":

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Ac 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Why do I have to confess sins that have not been imputed unto me?

Grace and peace brother

Tony

In a back-slidden state my sins seem vague and undefined like a giant mass of something that can't taken apart and examined. It's a hopeless proposition to try to confess sins in that state. All you can pray is "Lord, forgive me. Lord, help me." A lengthy, carnal walk causes me to doubt my salvation. I know intellectually I'm saved but I sure don't feel saved. It really is a pit that I fall into.

The closer that I am walking with the Lord determines how defined my sins seem to me. Confessing them isn't like beating my chest or groveling on the ground but more like a quiet, yielding response to His still, small voice. Other times, He causes me to trip, or hit my hand on something, or stub my toe, and I just know He caused it to get my attention. At that moment I realize that my mind was nursing some unforgiveness, or judging somebody, etc. He does this when I'm not within earshot of the still small voice! I'm almost always immediately grateful to the Lord when He does this because I always think of this verse when it happens: Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If any of us had to depend upon confessing all of our sins to be saved we would be without hope.

I'm still studying dispensationalism, reading three books (after I have done my scripture reading), and havn't come across expositions for rightly dividing 1st John ch 1 yet.
I generally understand that a hyper will usually lump Heb-Rev as non-Church Age entirely. Honest dispensationalist will have to admit that there are sections in Hebrews, James, I John and others that should be applied as Church-Age.

My question to Tony is, how do you prove that 1st John chapter 1 does not apply to the church today?
I understand your logic in stating that ALL past and future sins are forgiven entirely at Church-Age saving regeneration, and I agree with that. I also agree that in other dispensations, confession is part of salvation, however not in the Church-Age.
I also understand that we are not confessing continually to get more saved, or maintain salvation either. What most of us here seem to be saying is that confession is something that should be ongoing in the believer's walk after salvation, for spiritual growth.

Another question for Tony (take your time): In your personal walk with God, when you sin, even habitually, how do you approach God with it? Knowing that the sin is not imputed on your account (Ps 32:2, Rm 4:8, Rm 5:13), is there any point whatsoever in even talking to him about it?
And if you do talk to him about it, perhaps asking for help to battle it, doesn't merely acknowledging it to God constitute a confession?

One more thought:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A Church-Age believer understands that all their sins have already been forgiven, yet there are numerous doctrinally Church-Age admonitions to refrain from sin. Also that "grieve not the Holy Spirit" from Ephesians 4:30 indicates there is a consequence to our sin, even though its not imputed unto us eternally.
Perhaps 1Jn 1:9 is an affirmation to the born-again believer of the promise of God towards His forgiveness. I personally know that that verse encourages me to bring my recent sins to Him in prayer. Rather than wallow in guilt, the conviction of sin drives me TO God in prayer, rather than FROM him in shame. Each time I confess and ask for help with it, then employ His help in turning from the sin which convicts me, I draw closer and stronger in my walk with him.

I hope this post made some sense, and is understood to be sincere.

Tony,

Our walk with the Lord in our earthly bodies is not the same thing as our position in Him in heavenly places. Do you see no role for sanctification of the believer? I think you have such a neat and tidy dispensational framework that you rely on so exclusively that you don't allow yourself to see the real world and the real spiritual world. I see your love for the saints and for the lost and your kindness and your knowledge of scripture but for some reason you are blind in this area, in my opinion.

Jen

BornAgainBibleBeliever,

As you continue to research Hyperdispensationalism, you will learn that in some areas Hypers seem determined (some say obsessed) about instructing believers NOT to do exactly what they are TAUGHT TO DO in their Bibles. Confession is only one example. More here:
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/hy...tionalism.html

Growing up Catholic, I am well-acquainted with the Catholic idea of confessing sins to a priest. I NEVER felt comfortable with that and it just didn't sit right with me at all. Plus the so-called "penience prayers" also didn't make any sense to me. Saying some rote prayer twice or 5 times - how is that going to help?

So definitely I agree that we are not to use any confessional, no matter what sorts of denominations may be establishing some Catholic-created priest's ability to supposedly LISTEN to and FORGIVE sins.

What do the Scriptures say? Romans 8:34 - "Who is he that comendeth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:"

So, unlike the old priestly requirements in the Old Covenant, we don't need a priest to cleanse us of our sins, with a sacrificial animal's blood. We now have Jesus - and Paul says in Hebrews 4:16 - "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

So, we don't have to come, hanging our heads with shame and feelings of being UNWORTHY - because Christ died "while we were yet sinners"! And His blood is enough and it makes us WORTHY in the eyes of God (not in our own eyes, being self-righteous) - so we can come even BOLDLY to the throne of GRACE!

Jassy

I know exactly what you mean, sis!! I don't see past sins as well-defined and no matter how I've tried, in the past, to sort through them and define them, in order to confess them, I still felt clueless. That is why I think the Bible gives this Scripture:

Romans 8:26 - "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

27 - "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

So I don't think we have to beat ourselves over the head and do a WORK of trying to gather up our sins and confess them. But I think, when we are AWARE of sin, and we disregard it and sometimes even knowingly go ahead with it - that needs to be confessed, rather than shoving it under the rug, and being determined not to SEE it. GOD SEES IT... so I do feel that I need to let God know that I did let myself get carried away and fell into sin.

Jassy

:amen: Sister, the Bible is flat plain in regards to salvation, that what we need to Confess is Christ rather than our sins. This salvation gave us the right relationship with God and this kind of new relationship must translate our learning into living and show by our daily lives that we trust God's Word. Yet, oftentimes we fail him or at faults with others and we need to confess them in prayers to restore right fellowship (1 John 1:9) in this new kind of right relationship. We aren't perfect, only that we are sinners saved by grace.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I believe the real question is, Do you need to confess your sins to God, Man, or both
 

I believe the real question is, Do you need to confess your sins to God, Man, or both? If you commit the sin privately confess it privately to God, however if you committed the sin publicly it should be confessed to God and then publically.

private sin confess privately

.


public sin is subject to church discipline confess publically

Matthew 18:15-18
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.






As a born again believer, a Christian, I believe



Romans Chapter 3 Paul is talking to Christians. All too often, we take that verse out of context using it with the Romans road to salvation. So do I continue to hide sin in my heart until

I Believe We Need To Confess Our Sins To Christ Jesus, because



and




Furthermore,

I agree, Fredoheaven! :amen:

Richard you gave a good answer.

Thanks to everyone I think it shows we have been taught that after salvation one still needs to maintain a right relationship so after one sins (even though all are forgiven) we should examine our selves if we need acknowledge to God we are weak sinner continually in need of his grace. being sorry and repenting is a way of maintaining our relationship with God and our Lord.

Eph 4 tells about grieving the Holy Ghost in the context it is about sinfulness still coming from our lives, mouths and hearts, and too forgive one another so there is sin going on between body members. so If we grieve how do we ungrieve?

1 Thess 5 tells us, Quench not the Holy Ghost, the context also we see a gift being mentioned so this would be among body members.

so connect that to 1Cor 11 :28-31 and the context from 17 on and we can see that searching and confessing to God and to others if necessary is an approved way of keeping right with God and our Body of Christ Members.

Hmmm, well "relationship" is not really the best word brother.
I used to teach this in our Bible Doctrines class, there is a big difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP.

Our RELATIONSHIP with God is that of his adopted children, whereby we cry "Abba" or Father. We have been adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15) and this is wonderful news! This relationship cannot be shaken or changed, it is not based on works or any "maintenance" on our part. (Eph. 2:8-9) It is based on faith only and receiving Christ.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" I John 1:12

The reason this is important is because of the eternal security of the believer. Here is a weak but simple illustration...

When I was a kid, I used to get mud on my shoes a lot. My father used to tell me over and over to take off my shoes but I was always running in the house with muddy shoes on and making a mess. No matter how many times I tracked up my father's carpet as a child, my father never kicked me out or made me leave the family. Sometimes he became grieved about my total disregard for his instructions, and sometimes I got angry at him and his rules. I may have been chastized for that behavior, I may have lost my FELLOWSHIP, but I never lost my RELATIONSHIP. I was still in my father's family, and I stayed in his house. He loved me and remained my father and I remained his son.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:6-7

So I would agree with you that searching and confessing to God is important, and the reason is for our proper FELLOWSHIP with God. (I John 1:9)

Chette, I think your poll was very good, and I salute you for it.
I just want to make sure the readers understand what we are talking about.
God bless...

Based on the poll question, I answered OTHER. Here’s why.

NO. I do not confess my sins as a believer based on 1 John 1:9. In other words, as a born again believer who is washed in the blood of Jesus (once and for all) from all sin and all unrighteousness, I am not required to confess my sins because GOD IS FAITHFUL to “to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” It is not conditional to my faithfulness.

Forgiveness and cleansing is indeed contingent on confession but I believe verse 9 is written specifically to all who are lost, in darkness, and have no fellowship with God the Father through Christ Jesus. The Gospel we believe “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;” (1 Corinthians 15:3) identifies us as a sinner and we must “confess” and agree with God in order to be forgiven of our sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness. For “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

AS A BELIEVER WHO IS IN CHRIST ongoing forgiveness of sins and cleansing from all unrighteousness is not a result of our confession of sins. Forgiveness and cleansing is always at work because it the result of the efficacy and power of Christ’s shed blood. We do not reactivate the power of His blood every time we confess a sin. His blood is always cleansing and washing me.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Consider this. If the forgiveness of our sin and cleansing from all unrighteousness were conditional to our confessing sin then we are in a constant state of darkness and broken fellowship with God because if we are being completely honest even my righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We should all know how utterly righteous, holy, perfect, and sinless God is and that my condition in Christ has made me the righteousness of God.

I don't believe the scripture is saying to the believer, "If you confess your sins HE WILL FORGIVE AND CLEANSE YOU BUT IF YOU MISS CONFESSING A SIN DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT BECAUSE HIS BLOOD KEEPS WASHING YOU ANYWAY. DON'T WORRY, HE TAKE YOU BACK OUT OF DARKNESS AND PUTS YOU BACK IN THE LIGHT. AND OH YEAH, THE FELLOWSHIP THING, HE WILL ALSO PUT YOU BACK IN FELLOWSHIP IF YOU MISS CONFESSING ONE."

Concerning the first chapter of 1 John, I believe John gives a clear description of the saved person who is in the light (because God who is LIGHT and the LIGHT of the world, Jesus, is in him) and clear description of the lost person who is in darkness and has no fellowship with God. There is fellowship that we have with one another and there is fellowship with God. My fellowship with man can be broken and must be restored but my fellowship with God is never broken. I believe “fellowship” with God is based solely on our vital union through Christ Jesus, not our pious behavior or continued confession of every single sinful thought, sinful word, sinful deed, sinful attitude or sinful disposition.

Think about God, brethren, and who He is. Do you actually believe you’re fellowship with Him is conditional to confessing a sin? Do you actually believe you are all "confessed up" since the moment you were saved? “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool” (Isaiah 1:18). I have fellowship with the Heavenly Father only because I am in Christ and am now an adopted SON.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

YES. I believe we should confess, admit, acknowledge, and say “Lord that thought was sinful. Please help me to bring every thought captive to Christ and help me to think on things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and full of virtue. I praise you Lord Jesus for the cleansing power of thy blood and the forgiveness of my sins.”

There are many things we are admonished in scripture to do. Put off, put on, put away, flee, yield, not yield, mortify the deeds of the flesh, grieve not, quench not, examine, cleanse ourselves, reckon, abstain, sin not, stop lying, stop stealing, be kind, have charity, forgive one another, and resist to name just a few.

All of this Biblical action is repentance, not confession. Of course I confess to God when I sin. I ADMIT IT. But not according to 1 John 1:9. I do it because there is Biblical precedence to do so and because I love my Father and will not abuse His grace. Will grace abound if I do not confess my sin? Will grace abound even if I continue to sin now that I’m saved? ABSOLUTELY. Chastisement, correction, scourging, rebuke, and reproof is a whole other doctrine. Stay usable, be like CHRIST.

Is GRACE a divine permission slip to go out and sin and have a flagrant attitude toward sin? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. ABSOLUTELY NOT. But personally, I no longer confess my sins for the sole purpose of being forgiven of sins and in order to be cleansed from all unrighteousness when I already am.

I glory in what JESUS CHRIST has accomplished for me in His death for my sins, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating above all principalities, power, dominion, and might. I rejoice in the fact that Jesus has destroyed the works of the devil. I rest in the fact that His "seed" remains in me and I am the child of God in Christ and therefore I am always justified, righteous, forgiven, sanctified, redeemed, and reconciled. IT IS FINISHED.

Well then the words we and us would have to be wrong. (See 2:19 - they)

The issue is easier than you're making it out to be. There is a doctrinal statement about forgiveness of sins found in 2:12

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

There's your position in Christ doctrinally. Nobody has trouble with that.

1:9 (and context) is a practical statement about these sins. Practical as is your "practice" - day to day. This matches the context of "fellowship" (previously mentioned in thread) throughout the chapter. Notice the use of the word "walk" throughout these verses as well.

I started a thread some time ago about a guy in my church that got on this kick.
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....ess+their+sins

Forrest, 1 John 1:7-9 has always been a tough passage for Christians and there are good men on different sides of the interpretation.

I think if you cross reference 1 John with Ephesians 5 it may help you... the context in both of these passages is believers WALKING IN THE LIGHT, and FELLOWSHIP of the believer...

check out this passage in Ephesians 5...

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:

Now you see that thing right there about walking as children of light? If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? Keep reading...

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Now we see that thing about FELLOWSHIP again, and please notice the Christian can have FELLOWSHIP not only with God but also with the works of DARKNESS. WE have a choice every day of our lives who we will choose to have fellowship with. This theme fits perfectly with what John wrote in our KJV in 1 John right here...

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I honestly think the reason Christians get hung up here is because they confuse the POSITIONAL forgiveness and cleansing (based on grace) with the PRACTICAL side of daily fellowship with our Lord (as it relates to our joy). There is a beautiful verse that sits right in the middle of 1 John 1 that is often overlooked, but I think it holds the key to the entire passage. WHY is John writing this? Here's your answer...

"And these things write we unto you,
that your joy may be full." 1 John 1:4

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Who is the we in verse 1? Was it John and the Apostles? Surely others, at least one person, reading this letter heard, saw, and looked upon the Word of life.

It's more clear as we read this verse. (By the way, for clarification, I'm not just using the word "we" meaning you and I pbiwolski, I include all who read my comment here, saved or lost).

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

So who is "ye" in verse 3 referring to? Would that be both the saved and lost? The saved only? Or possibly the lost only?

John already has fellowship with God and is in the light just as or in the same manner God is in the light. He believes in the person he is proclaiming and that is the only reason he is in the light as God is in the light. Others reading the letter also walk in the light as HE is in the light and have fellowship with the Father and His Son. And John talks to them in verse 7. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

But to all reading who have yet to believe, who are walking in darkness and have no fellowship with God, he provides the solution in verse 9.

In my understanding, in context he is writing to a mixed crowd just like we (meaning you, pbiwolski, and I, Forrest) are in a mixed crowd.

He cleanseth me from ALL sin and it is not conditional to my confessing all sin since I am in Christ. His blood never stops cleansing me from all sin.

From the moment you (pbiwolski) first received Christ have you confessed every single sin? If not, are you still forgiven? Are you cleansed from all unrighteousness? Are you still in fellowship with the Father and His Son? Does the blood of Christ cleanseth you from all sin or not?

If confessing of your sins (no exception, don't miss one) as a believer is required to be forgiven of your sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness are you forgiven and are you clean?

Brother Parrish. I need to rest. The MS thing. But I will give my understanding.

Forrest, every time you mention the MS it makes me think of one of my dearest friends in the Lord, who also suffers from this and he is like you a great student of the Bible, he ran a Bible Doctrines correspondence program for prisoners for many years. God bless...

I vote yes, and completely agree with Bro Parrish's post #25.

Forrest, that is interesting how you are in essence agreeing with us on the idea of confession of sin to God, but you are not seeing it in 1 John 1. So, what exactly is the Biblical precedence you are basing your confession on?

yes I am talking about Fellowship seeing our relationship is in Christ.


To Quote Forrest:
"YES. I believe we should confess, admit, acknowledge, and say “Lord that thought was sinful. Please help me to bring every thought captive to Christ and help me to think on things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and full of virtue. I praise you Lord Jesus for the cleansing power of thy blood and the forgiveness of my sins.”

There are many things we are admonished in scripture to do. Put off, put on, put away, flee, yield, not yield, mortify the deeds of the flesh, grieve not, quench not, examine, cleanse ourselves, reckon, abstain, sin not, stop lying, stop stealing, be kind, have charity, forgive one another, and resist to name just a few.

All of this Biblical action is repentance, not confession. Of course I confess to God when I sin. I ADMIT IT. But not according to 1 John 1:9. I do it because there is Biblical precedence to do so and because I love my Father and will not abuse His grace. Will grace abound if I do not confess my sin? Will grace abound even if I continue to sin now that I’m saved? ABSOLUTELY. Chastisement, correction, scourging, rebuke, and reproof is a whole other doctrine. Stay usable, be like CHRIST. " end of quote

Forrest, this is what we are truly talking about. but one must admit one sin (which is a confession technically) and turn from it even as a Christian. we use different English words and that may be where some of the confusion. But as I asked in a earlier post how do we ungrieve the Holy Ghost when we sinned.

I see 1 John not as a doctrine as to something that must be held to for all our being is in Christ and our fellowship with God is based on his work alone. but as an application there would be nothing wrong with following that rule in order to Admit ones sinfulness and to repent.

Greetings All. This lengthy (George-like :smile: ) post will require prayerful and careful contemplation. It may cause you to step out of the box of what you've always been taught or believed.

I’m not sure we are admonished to “ungrieve” the Holy Spirit. We are, however, told not to grieve Him. Here’s the way to not to grieve Him:

Ephesians 4:20-21 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Obey, follow, and do the things we have learned and been taught by Jesus. Here are some things we have learned from Him:

Ephesians 4:22-32 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [U]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice[U]: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I agree with you here, Brother Chette. “I see 1 John not as a doctrine as to something that must be held to for all our being is in Christ and our fellowship with God is based on his work alone.”

I also agree that as believers we should admit and repent. Again, I do not believe 1 John 1:9 is a mandate given to “believers” to confess their sins for the purpose of being forgiven for their sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness. I think there is division in the word of truth from chapter one and chapter two of 1 John.

The children of wrath are the lost. The believer is now delivered from the wrath of God through Christ Jesus and is no longer called the child of disobedience. This is clear:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We are admonished to not be partakers with them (the children of wrath and of disobedience). Their unbelief and particular lifestyle is to be avoided in the life of a believer. More clarification is seen in Ephesians 2:2. “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”

Yes, indeed Brother Parrish, we were (past tense) the children of wrath and sometimes darkness. But now. But now we are light in the Lord. We are no longer the children of wrath who were sometimes darkness, but now we are the children of God whereby we cry Abba Father and the scripture says, “now are ye light in the Lord.” We do not need degrees in Greek or English to understand the tense of words like “now” and “ye are” to know this is a finished work of our redemption. Some other scriptures that connect our new life as light not darkness are:

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

There is no doubt, dear brother, that now that we are light in the Lord we should behave like children of light.

The Holy Spirit directs us to the person of light who is Christ and guides us into goodness, righteousness, and truth. The Holy Spirit convicts me and reminds me that I am now in the light and I should behave like it. My outward practical and experiential walk should be full of light because of the reality that positionally, God who is light dwells in me, and I in Him.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. [The same God who IS light dwells in me.]

Be very careful with the words here. If we’re not careful we will fail to rightly divide the word of truth in 1 John and here in Ephesians. Specifically, we are told to: “…have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

I agree. Run, flee, depart, don’t touch, turn from, avoid, resist, or look at the “unfruitful works of darkness” but rather reprove them. Can a Christian “have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness” after receiving Christ? Oh my! I blush!

This has nothing to do with the fellowship that I have with my Heavenly Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. I guess we are too accustomed to the word “fellowship” as it relates to fellow believers and we fail to make the division. My fellowship with God is never based on my works (good or bad) but solely on the righteous merits of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and is therefore never broken. That’s what John is teaching in my opinion.

By the way, did you notice John makes distinction when he means to address believers specifically with words like “My little children” and “beloved” in his letter. And Paul is very clear in his address in Ephesians from the very beginning.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

That’s true. But I believe the “we” in 1 John 1:6 is speaking to unbelievers. Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to say. Let’s assume there are both saved and lost people on this Forum. I am addressing this statement to everyone—saved and lost who may be reading this post.

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [I am addressing the Lost on this Forum with this statement] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [Now I’m addressing the saved on this Forum with this statement] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [I am now addressing the Lost on this Forum with these statements] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

So if we, on this Forum, have not yet received and believed in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible we are not in fellowship with God. We are still in darkness. And we are not forgiven for our sins and cleansed from all unrighteous. If, however, we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." Do we believe this? I do.

Now I want to say something specifically to the believers on this Forum. To those who are in the light, in fellowship with God, and whose sins are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus."My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Brother Parrish, do you notice the clear division between “fellowship with him, and walk in darkness” in 1 John 1:6 and “fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness” in Ephesians 5:11. Now that we walk in the light (because we are now in the light through Christ) we have fellowship with Him and we should have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

I agree with you with this exception. I think our joy is full from both our positional reality and our practical reality. And I do not believe our "fellowship" with God and the Lord Jesus Christ is ever broken because of my sinful behavior just like it is not maintained by my holy behavior.

:amen:

Again, I personally do not confess my sins according to 1 John 1:9 for the sole purpose of being forgiven of my sins and being cleansed from all unrighteousness now that I’m saved.

It's like saying:"God please forgive me" and Him replying, "I already have! That's why my Son died for your filthy, rotten sins." You plead: "Please God, cleanse me from all unrighteousness" and He replies, "I already have. That's why my Son shed His perfect and precious blood for your filthy, rotten sins. In my Son, you are now made into my righteousness and I have no unrighteousness. What is it you want to be cleansed from?"

Although I do not confess my sins for the sole purpose of being forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, I do admit, acknowledge, and agree that God is right and I am wrong—I still commit sins. But I do not “confess” my sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness because that was done when I confessed my sins when I first received Christ back in 1979.

I believe that the blood of my Savior has already taken care of my sins once and for all and that confession of sin is no longer required in order to appease God, satisfy God, restore my fellowship with God and with Jesus Christ, put me back in the light, or to reactivate the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. I repent from sin because I do not want to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

For me, the following scriptures serve as precedence to openly admit, acknowledge, and agree with God I still sin and that He desires for me to turn away from them and to Him.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

2 Peter 1:5-10 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Romans 6:6-13 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Well, Rev 3:19 is written to believers, and it says to repent.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This shows clearly that a saved person can be out of fellowship with Christ, and that Christ will rebuke them and chasten them. And the believers here are told to repent. I do not know how you repent of a sin without acknowledging and confessing that sin.

I see it no different than our earthly family. When I was a child I did some wrong things which grieved my father. He did not kick me out of the family, but he did rebuke and chasten me a few times.

And the Bible teaches this very thing.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So, while we may be saved, we still have a big problem with sin. And the Lord will chasten us for it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So, Christians can surely sin, and it does not go unnoticed by the Lord. He will chasten us and correct us. If you see a person who sins continually without being chastened, then that person is not truly saved, for God chastens all his children whom he loves.

No doubt. Christians can and do sin. Repent, no doubt. Stop sinning, no doubt. Obey, follow, love, and submit to Christ, no doubt. But where does the Bible specifically tell the believer, who is now IN Christ, our "fellowship" is broken with God or His Son as a result of sin and must be restored through confession or repentance of that sin? As you say, where does the Bible clearly say that?

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Brother Winman, this letter was written to bunch of carnal, fleshly, sinful, believers. God is faithful even when we aren't. If you are called to the fellowship of His dear Son, nothing you do or do not do ever breaks that fellowship. Again, there is a huge difference between the fellowship we have with God in CHRIST JESUS and the fellowship we have with one another.

Suppose God appeared to you in person right now. Would your fellowship with Him be based on confession of all known sins or on the bases of being in Christ? Which is it?

Can they? YOU BET. A Christian can get into as much practical trouble as the unsaved man, and most certainly choose to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness. My question remains, If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? If we cannot have fellowship with darkness then why the exhortation NOT to do it? That's why Paul told the fornicating Corinthian believers this...

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. I Cor. 6:15-16

"Neither let US commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let US tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.... wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed LEST HE FALL." 1 Cor. 10:8-12

And that's where we disagree I suppose.
I think our JOY and FELLOWSHIP is based on our daily choices, and that is exactly what I think 1 John 1:7-9 is all about.
But again, to me that has nothing to do with our eternal security and our RELATIONSHIP. So we are not in total disagreement, and I respect your views.

I have heard that view before, but I honestly feel that to take that view creates an unecessary situation where you are forced to chop up 1 John 1 into a confusing passage of "now he is addressing the lost, and now he is addressing the saved and now he is addressing the lost again" (as you have suggested).
To me that just destroys the continuity of the passage and how it flows right into chapter 2 and the rest of the book.

I can see how one could reach that conclusion, but I don't think it's necessary, because I think it's done in order to avoid a problem that doesn't really exist in 1 John.

That's why I think 1 John fits so well with Eph. 5.
See I don't think God can have fellowship with sin, even if that sin is in the heart of the BELIEVER who just lied to his wife or stole something from his boss. Choosing to walk in the darkness of unconfessed sin is serious business, with serious consequences. I don't think God will give up on a believer like that, (see my illustration on the mud in the house), and I don't think that impacts our eternal RELATIONSHIP, but I think our FELLOWSHIP and our JOY is damaged. To me the passage is very clear; he is talking about WE, US, and OUR WALK, and OUR FELLOWSHIP...

"But if WE walk in the light, as he is in the light, WE have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth US from all sin."

Forrest, the fact that Jesus' blood cleans our DAILY SIN, as much as our POSITIONAL SIN, doesn't really pose a problem for me, and it never has. His precious blood not only CLEANSED sins of the past, it STILL CLEANSETH today. His blood didn't lose its power after we were saved, it has the power to CLEANSE us of every sin we ever commit—yesterday, today AND tomorrow. It is the blood of the ETERNAL covenant (Heb. 13:20).

As I said brother Forrest, I think there are good men on both sides of this, for example I know for a fact that John MacArthur teaches your view quite beautifully, and I think Matthew Henry's Commentary sees it the way I do, as shown here...

"The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, v. 9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer's business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, v. 9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. liii. 11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it."

Why then do you confess your sins if they are forgiven, past, present, and future? Don't say to restore your fellowship with God unless you can give the clear scripture that backs up your claim.

Forrest

You make excellent points there, but I still believe there is a difference between being saved and being in fellowship. You cannot be in fellowship without being saved, but you can be saved and out of fellowship.

Read 1 Cor 8 and 9 again.

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, to me, this is a great verse proving that we cannot lose our salvation. It is a promise that Jesus will keep us. As Bro Parrish said, this is our position in Christ. We are washed of all sin, and have the imputed righteousness of Christ. So, in God's eyes we are blameless.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, I do see where a person could think this verse is a continuation of verse 8, and I believe it is also linked by the phrase "God is faithful". So again, it is an assurance that we will be kept and preserved by God unto the end. But I think the comma is important and it is making a new statement afterward. It is saying we are called unto the fellowship. So, this is a new subject, the scriptures are not talking about being preserved anymore, but now are talking about being called into fellowship.

Now look at the very next verse.

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now what is happening here? Obviously there are some arguments and confrontations going on in the church. There is no fellowship here. And Paul is begging them to stop and be agreed in the same mind and judgement.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

So, here is an issue of broken fellowship in the church. They were all arguing and debating among themselves. And Paul is reminding them they were called "unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ".

Winman,

We need to be very careful in making the churches of Rev 2-3 to churches today

Again we need to rightly divide Rev 3. While some believe they are church age churches other believe they are Jewish Tribulational Churches. The reason being of all the scriptures from Rev2-3 stating one to ENDURE, REPENT, and OVERCOMETH in order, eat of the tree of life (we have life in Christ), shall not be hurt by the second death (we are free from wrath which is the second death), receive the morning star (we have already received Christ), will not have ones name removed from the book of life (our names are already written in the book of life securely never to be removed), be clothed in white raiment(we are already clothed in His righteousness), be made a pillar in the temple of God (we are already the temple), be able to sit with Christ on his throne (we are already seated in the heavenlies with the Lord)

Can you see the theological problems you would run into if this is the church age churches. Remember the book of Revelation is Prophecy not past you see. These are futuristic churches in the tribulation. if you make them churches today you will nullify all that Christ has done and you could teach that you can loose your salvation and position in Christ.

Okay, Brother. I'm attempting to rightly divide not chop.

A believer, in my opinion, never walks in darkness. He is always walking in the light. A believer can "have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness" and there is a distinction between "walk in darkness" and "fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness." We are not darkness but light in Christ, now behave that way and don't have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

Chette

That is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. If I listened to you, I would think there might be two verses in the whole Bible that were written for me.

Jesus said in Revelations that he rebukes and chastens those whom he loves, and this is in perfect agreement with the scriptures I showed in Hebrews.

You should try reading the Bible without all these pre-conceived biases. I believe that all scripture is for me.

2 Tim 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.