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I am only clarifying this further because it is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Bro. Parrish was talking about. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bro. Parrish!) Pam www.custerfamilyfarm.com |
Pam, as I say I love all of you in Christ,
let's just move forward, try and get back to topic and see how it goes. |
I went a reread thread on biblical marriage and I understood exactly what George's assessment of you. I analyzed your and his posts see that thread for some advice.
let me ask you Are any of those things in George's assessment true? if not let it go. if they are then change those areas in your life. If George is wrong prove it not by arguing but by your attitude in those things he assessed. |
To get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic :) ):
1. Ham did SOMETHING that so offended his father, Noah, that Noah spoke a curse upon the decendents of ONE of Ham's children, Canaan. What that deed was is not explicitly explained in the passage or elsewhere in the Scriptures. Sufficient, therefore, is that we accept that it had to have been a gross offense. To attempt to define what it was is nothing more than speculation. 2. The decendents of Canaan settled in the region that later became known by his name. It was the land later given by God to Abraham. 3. Because this is a curse spoken by a man and not God, we cannot tell the duration or the extent of its application. There is Scriptural evidence of the curse being in effect to some degree. [Example: the Gibeonites] To say that the curse is still in effect is not provable, primarily due to inability to clearly distinguish the decendents of each affected party. [such as: Who today are the decendents of Canaan? Where are the tents of Shem? etc] 4. It is Biblically clear that Black Africans are not the decendents of Canaan, and therefore the past and present slavery of Blacks by Whites has nothing whatsoever to do with this curse. An additional personal observation: The intermingling of the decendents of Noah is so extensive today that it is impossible to divide the peoples of this earth into each of the three sons' families. The possible exception would be some "nations" such as the Jews that have maintained isolation as a practice. Even there, the scattered ten tribes are likely lost. I would greatly appreciate each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette, to comment on my four points. |
Hope I'm not butting in here...
I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. I haven't posted anything. I actually have no wisdom to share on this particular topic and I admit my ignorance in this. Yet, it was sad to me to see how this unfolded. I don't think that people have the right to label others and continue to see them through the narrow filter that they've devised for them, according to a particular person's posts on other threads. I don't understand how threads can go off target from a clear topic to name-calling and character-bashing.
As I see it, you are all fellow believers in Jesus Christ and, hopefully, all upholders of the KJV Bible, as I am. If not, then I'd question the sincerity of your membership here. If you come with a genuine desire to know the truth - then, of course, you are welcome. If you come to spread dissention and division amongst the KJV Bible-believers, then that certainly is NOT welcome. There is plenty of room for that on other Forums. Honestly, if people are going to always be picking at each other, finding others' weaknesses, and eagerly seeking to point out the errors of others, how do we say that we are brethren in the Lord? I believe it is with MUCH humility that one ought to express any type of disagreement and questioning of another brother or sister in Christ. The Bible says to CONFESS our FAULTS one to another... it doesn't say to SEEK OUT and PICK ON EACH OTHER for those faults!! The apostle Paul should indeed be our guide as to how to conduct ourselves. He often spoke of humility and being humble. Acts 20:19 - "Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations..." Even Christ humbled himself! Philippians 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Colossians 3:12 - Put on therefore, as the elect of god, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Where is our humbleness, meekness and longsuffering (patience)? James 4:10 - "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." We don't lift ourselves up - but the LORD does it. 1 Peter 5:6 - "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:" Do you know why I and others here at this Forum tend to look up to brother George? I respect him as my "elder" - and I make myself humble, according to his greater knowledge of the Scriptures. According to the Bible, this is correct. 1 Peter 5:5 - "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject to another and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." I believe that brother George has steadfastly reminded people to remain focused on the Scriptures that have relevance and, as brother Forrest does, to set our eyes on CHRIST. Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." I've been consistently reminded of that here on this Forum. We are to look to the Scriptures for wisdom and knowledge. As people often will say "What saith the Scripture." or "Yea, hath God said..." We have to be careful that we don't attribute our own biases and misguided understandings to be the wisdom of God. We always must compare Scripture with Scripture, to find the truth... and also make sure that we are rightly dividing the Word of truth. I'm reminded of Colossians 2:16 -"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" 17 - "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." 18 - "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind," 19 - "And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God." 20 - "Wherefore if ye be dead in Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances," 21 - "(Touch not; taste not; handle not;" 22 - "Which all are to perish with the using; )" after the commandments and doctrines of men?" 23 - "Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." For people to hold onto grudges or past slights and refer back to them, is just immaturity. Truly we need to forgive and forget - to move forward as ONE BODY IN CHRIST!! Have we forgotten that WE are the BODY and that He (the LORD) is the HEAD? Would he want all this backstabbing and bickering and foolish name-calling? What happens to the edification and learning? That is what I came to this Forum to do: learn - To grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Word; and to fellowship with brethren who uphold the King James Bible. I don't think we should be here to try to "one up" each other. Let us remember: 1 Corinthians 14:33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." And remember that we all have different roles to play, according to how the Lord has placed us in the Body of Christ. One of us is not more important than any of the others... no matter how "lowly" their own role may seem. Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" 12 - "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" 13 - "Till we all come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:" 14 - "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" 15 - "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" 16 - "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Keep reading there in Colossians 2 - and then think of this Forum as a microcosom of the larger Body of Christ. We should walk in a way that edifies others and in a way that new people that come to the Forum can immediately see the love that we have for one another here. I have FELT that love here - we need to focus on that and not let petty differences come between us as brethren. Jassy |
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George's assessment of me is very UNTRUE...you could ask anybody who knows me (he definitely does not!) And I don't remember arguing about that stuff! But my whole point has been - why was George assessing me at all? I just wanted to discuss the issue and the scripture... With that said, George has caused me to wonder about people and their assessment of themselves; I'll post that separately! I have answered you in the Biblical Marriage thread as well. THANK YOU! Pam www.custerfamilyfarm.com |
self-assessment!
Well, I definitely agree with Bro. Parrish - that we should avoid the bickering...so let it be known that the purpose of this post is simply to 'share' a little word study that I have done that has helped me (and I believe will help anyone reading it) to understand the foundation of some of the squabbling on here! (And perhaps with this realization, the situation could be remedied!)
I guess a good 'jumping off place' would be Bro. Parrish's proposed "dislike for George." Bro. Parrish has, of course, cleared this up and has stated on more than one occasion that he has a LOVE for all of us. BUT, the fact is that George absolutely delights in being a very UNlikable person - hence his chosen description of himself..."the old curmudgeon!" Now, I don't mind telling you that I had never even heard or seen that word until I saw George use it here (many times) to refer to himself. So, naturally, I was curious as to the definition of "curmudgeon." (I was shocked by what I've found, which is why I am posting this!!) I used three dictionaries so that hopefully I could get a complete picture: curmudgeon: a surly, cantankerous person curmudgeon: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man curmudgeon: an avaricious, churlish fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl and more on those defining words... surly: gloomily morose; crabbed; snarling; sternly sour; rough; cross and rude surly: arrogant, imperious; irritably sullen and churlish in mood or manner surly: bad-tempered; sullenly rude; uncivil cantankerous: bad-tempered; quarrelsome cantankerous: difficult or irritating to deal with crusty: peevish; snappish; morose; surly crusty: insolent [insolent: impudent] crusty: giving an effect of surly incivility in address or disposition churlish: marked by a lack of civility or graciousness; difficult to work with or deal with churlish: resembling or befitting a boor (a rude or insensitive person) churlish: rude; surly; austere; sullen; rough in temper; unfeeling; uncivil; selfish; etc. Now, before I proceed, let me remind everyone that ALL OF THIS IS GEORGE'S ASSESSMENT OF HIS OWN PERSONALITY, not MY description of him!!! (That is what is so mind-boggling about this!) Next, all you Bible readers will recall that the only 'churlish' man in the Bible is Nabal. (Who in their right mind glories in that their disposition matches Nabal's - a man that God killed for railing on David's men!!!???) Also, you can see the 'churl' in Isaiah 32:5 and 32:7 - the words associated with him are "vile," "evil," "wicked," and "lying words." Again, remember this is the very definition of the word George always uses to tell people about himself...I guess we can't say he didn't warn us! When I saw that George had equated himself with Nabal, I read the whole story of Nabal again to gain more insight. In I Samuel 25:14, one of the young men told Abigail that Nabal "railed on" David's messengers. (This, by George's own admission [remember: "curmudgeon,"] from my own experience with George, and from Bro. Parrish's witness, is very characteristic of George!) Then, to find out what our reaction to a railer should be, we search Paul and find I Cor. 5:11 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat." (emphasis mine) Since Chette wisely pointed out that in these posts we cannot hear intonation or have eye contact or see body language, I thought that we should consider that maybe George is being facetious when he calls himself "the old curmudgeon." But the first thought that comes to mind is Prov. 14:9 - "Fools make a mock at sin..." Yes, I know that we all have our problems in the flesh, but are we to make light of them...joke about them? I have a rather diverse sense of humor, but flippantly boasting that you are imitating Nabal or Isaiah 32's "churl" IS NOT FUNNY! What's next? Demas? Judas? Just to be clear, let me say it again...this post is only made up of GEORGE'S APPRAISAL OF HIS OWN CHARACTER!!! I simply didn't know what a "curmudgeon" was and wondered how many of the other forum members knew. And, like I said, I am posting this because it is shocking and disgusting - and it definitely helped me to see where George was coming from...so, thank you, George for that (one) word of testimony! This made me really wonder too, Chette, why you would choose to label Bro. Parrish and me as "ingrates" in reference to all the time you say George has put into Bible study. What are you suggesting that we should be grateful for? I am grateful for my King James Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my concordance! If I had to choose between NOT having a human Bible teacher and having a self-proclaimed "curmudgeon" as a Bible teacher, I would choose to have only the Holy Spirit any day...who wouldn't? Well, I know this post is still off-topic, but in light of all the seeming confusion about what has transpired between who, it is clear that George's commentary on himself would be more appropriate than anything the rest of us say in relation to him...wouldn't you agree? As an aside, Jassy, I appreciated your post and would like to make it clear that I have not had any problem PERSONALLY with George (his curmudgeonliness is between him and the Lord!)...my 'gripe' all along (and I've told him this time and again) is that he refuses to discuss scripture when it disagrees with his position! Thanks for listening! Pam www.custerfamilyfarm.com |
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Now George is not Elisha but the Lord is not mocked. Be careful. |
what happened to Mary by the way. she is the one who started this thread.
I think I will not share my beliefs on hot topic threads from now on. |
Chette, before you leave this thread (that is being seriously hijacked), please respond to my post #84, which is on-topic.
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I will point out an observation that may appear to be bigoted. Look at the violent crime statistics compared with the ethnic statistics of population. Black on white robberies and gang assaults are 21 times more common than white on black crimes. Blacks make up about 15% of the population. |
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Brother Tim, you make an insinuating comment about George who wasn't even involved in the thread in any way. You link Chette's opinion with the KKK who used to murder blacks in this country and maybe still might today if they could get away with it, then you lump every body together to address your comments. You accuse Bro. Parish of "disliking" George when he never said that. I may disagree with Bro. Parish on some things he has said in the past and feel he was unkind to the uttermost in what he said about George on this thread but I can't read his heart so I won't make a judgement on whether he likes or dislikes brother George. You are careless with other people's reputations, in my opinion. Most of my faults are right out there for everybody to see. At times I've been overly opinionated, in your face, unkind and lacking in meekness and grace. But I have always admitted on this forum when I saw I was wrong about something. I don't need other people insinuating untrue faults or opinions to me. Sometimes people seem to lack the mental or spiritual clarity to discern important details which are necessary to come to a full understanding of what a person has actually said. It's real easy to stop short especially if it enhances one's own reputation and position while destroying someone elses. I'm not saying that is what you are doing now and I'm not saying I have never done that here. I just think we need to be aware that human beings have a propensity to do this so we should all be careful in this area. George has been stalked on this forum for a month now by custer. She has mocked and scorned him so dozens of times. Last night she equated him to Nabal. Of course, she didn't come right out and say it in her own words, it was in the form of a "word study". The ugliest things have come out of this thread and you want to "get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic :) ):" This thread was started by a first time poster who has posted exactly once. If anyone would care to click on her website you can see that she sells "biker chic" apparel including black leather lingerie. Gee, I wonder what her motive could have been in posting this topic? The devil does work among believers to break up fellowships and I believe he has tried to do it here. That's just my discernment, however. But by all means, brother Tim, go on with your attempt to isolate Chette and publicly "out" him as a bigot and a racist because he has a different interpretation or misunderstanding of a passage. I'm sick with being falsely accused and not even in a direct fashion, directed to "each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette" but with insinuations that are general. That way if you try to defend yourself you can be accused of being defensive or paranoid. I'm done with this board. And I will NEVER participate on any christian forum again. It is death to the spirit. There are many people here who have shown love and taught clearly and precisely from the Word, and cared enough to put forth the effort to understand what somebody was actually saying, not making assumptions for self-serving purposes. Those people I will take with me in my heart. The rest I will have to forgive their faults as they will have to forgive mine if they are Christ's. |
Apparently, some people were in the midst of responding to the topic of this thread, so I will re-open it. Any additional posts in this thread that are of a personal nature and not directly on-topic will be deleted.
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Sorry Tim, mums the word on my thoughts concerning this hot issue. the reason is you have a tendency to read into my post your own bias, bigotry, and assume that certain terms are being used in a derogatory sense in which it would not be on my heart as such.
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The Mark Of Cain Myth
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God put a mark on Cain and many, many people stop there, and say, "h'it was black skin..." without reading what the Scriptures say. Why did God put a mark on Cain? "Wayall, he killded his brother..." Ge 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. oops. All those hangings, burnings, shootings, stabbings, stonings, and dragging behind pickup trucks has put a lot of the white pointy kaps into hell. If the "mark" was "black skin", we should be as nice as we can to black folks because the "mark" was given for Cain's protection, not curse. It's possible if every murder in the Bible is studied, the identity of this "mark" might be revealed, if there is a reason God would want to have us know it. People have commented to me the mark of Cain and the mark of The Beast in Revelation is the same mark> Rationally I can;t see this as being the same mark. The mark of Revelation is a mark of damnation, the mark put on Cain was for his protection. I can also find no Scriptural evidence that God has cursed one race of people from nearly Adamic times to the present, considering that "Hamites" are Gentiles and according to Eph. 2 and 3 all Gentiles, from then to the revelation given to Paul of the mystery of Jew and Gentile in the same Body co-equal, we were all out of the Commonwealth of Israel, we were all afar off "but now" all made nigh by the blood of Christ, "Hamites" and "Japethites". An anthopological anomaly exists that cannot be explained by the JEB Stuart College Of Natural Sciences: The aborigines of the Solomon Islands are scientifically and anthropologically Caucasians, their skin is black as coal. The native tribes of Africa did not jump into little wooden canoes and cross the Atlantic to invade South Carolina in the 1600s, these people were brought here against their will, stolen from their homes and sent here in the most brutal conditions known to man and subjected to persecution that makes the children of Israel in Egypt look cushy. I'm a pretty hard person and I have a "secret sin" I make no secret of: I'm a cynic. I'm the person they used to invent the word "cynic". But there are two things I will absolutely not tolerate in a Christian setting of any kind where I hold the reins: Galatianism, being made nigh by the Spirit through the shed blood of Christ and then made "perfect" by "ordinances", "obediences", "traditions", "laws", and using the Scriptures to justify racism. My next message will demonstrate the Scriptures disconnecting Leviticus 18 from Genesis 9. Grace and peace friends Tony |
Greenbear, I know that you have said that you were leaving, but I hope that you will see this and respond.
I do not understand what it was that caused you to make your last post here directed at me. I am going to reprint portions and comment, but first I appeal to you to continue posting on the forum. Because it does not fit this thread, I want to comment on the general chat part of the forum. I will answer your post here if we are reconciled on the other thread. |
KingSolomon1611:
If you review posts #4, #5, #6, #10, and #11, the intermingling of the curse of Canaan with all Hamites should be observable. In the following quotes, I will indicate notable areas in bold underlining: In post #4, Chette said: Quote:
In post #5, KingSolomon1611 uses a quote from Luke, and then links (using the rules of pronoun - noun antecedents) the name "Ham", the question of sodomy, and his past knowledge of certain behavior. The phrase "their culture", the term "rappers" and immoral acts in prisons are brought together in one paragraph. Then in post #6, Chette poses a question of linkage as to whether or not many prisoners who are immoral were also Hamites. In post #10, KingSolomon1611 answers in the affirmative. Last, in post #11, Chette expands this linkage of Hamites and slavery: Note again that there absolutely no Biblical connection between Canaan's curse and Black slavery. Quote:
In post #12, I make my initial statement. In the part of the post where [King]Solomon's name appears, I am appealing to Chette, Solomon, [who have posted on the topic] and any others to show evidence where all of Ham's decendents are cursed. This statement did not claim that Solomon had made this statement any more than that any unnamed "others" had done so. Chette and KingSolomon had jointly tied the ideas together in their previous posts. Chette did so specifically, and KingSolomon gave supporting statements. KingSolomon, I did not claim that you said that the entire family of Ham was cursed. What was evident in your posts was that you did not disagree with Chette when he made that connection. It appeared from your responses that you may have agreed with that connection. I apologize if I read more into your posts than you meant. Also, I am in no way claiming or even implying that Chette is racist or bigoted. What is true is that there are those who are racists who do use this argument to support their "superiority" over black-skinned people. I do beseech Chette to clearly reject any connection with Canaan's curse and Black slavery. |
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Jen |
Thanks, Jennifer.
Brandon, if you see this, could you please delete #95? It is now been slightly updated as #98. Thanks. |
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I don't have time tonight but I would like to jump back to this discussion and maybe elaborate on some ideas and toss them out to a critical crowd to see if it can stand the scrutiny of the bretheren. I have a ton of homework to do and need to get back to it. Thanks for your response. |
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1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Brother Solomon, my only disagreement with you is a slight one, semantics, nomenclature. In time past, under the commonwealth of Israel, there were two races: Jews, and everybody else. In the age of God's grace the terms "Hamite" "Japethite" "Shemite" are a bit obsolete. As near as my anthropological studies have taken me, your wife and Muslim Arabs are Shemites, as are American Indians and Indians of central and south America. I'm 3/4 Scot/Irish, 1/4 Shawnee/Cherokee. That and 2 dollars gets a cup of coffee at Waffle House in God's eyes. Adolf Hitler was 1/4 Jewish and 1/2 Slavonic Czech, he was not even a member of the Aryan Race he worshiped. I'm not raising a contention with you, I felt led to point out the 'H-J-S" words are appropriate for Dr. Ruckman's cult,William Pierce's National Alliance and the Christian Identity terrorist group, I think as Christians we should not dwell on where we came from but who we are today in Christ Jesus. Grace and peace to you Tony |
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Maybe you know something about Ruckman that I don't? I studied under him for 3 and a half years. Maybe I missed something? I don't know what kind of grace and peace I am supposed to receive after being indirectly associated with someone who you seem to mention in the same breath as murderers and nazis :confused: |
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Romans 11:1 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. And since "H-J-S" are appropriate for murderers,facists and Ruckman(?) maybe you should note that the Holy Spirit thought it appropriate to show the gospel of the grace going to a represenative of "H-J-S" : -Acts 8 the Ethiopian Eunuch gets saved. "H" for Ham - Acts 9 Saul gets saved. "S" for Shem - Acts 10 Cornelius gets saved. "J" for Japheth Maybe you could benefit from sitting under Ruckman for a while. He teaches the Bible pretty good for a "cult" leader. |
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Genesis 9:26-27 (KJV) 26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. |
Solomon, the following fact continues to be ignored in your posts:
Black-skinned people of Africa do not descend from Canaan. They are NOT Canaanites! Canaan's land boundaries are exactly spelled out in the Scriptures, and that land DOES NOT include Africa. Ham's OTHER son(s) (one or more) is/are the ancestor(s) of the black-skinned nations of Africa. |
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Ruckman has flaws, I don't agree with him on everything; but Doc has done a lot of good, he has been a personal blessing to me and millions of Bible students, and he has stood for the KJV longer by far than most of his pesky critics on internet forums. |
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If nothing else I'm glad you were grounded in the inspiration of the KJV from PBI. I was educated at the Oregon District(5th Street in Dayton Ohio) Theological Seminary. One Saturday night in Oct. of 1988 I was with a group of people who tried to talk personally to Dr. Ruckman at Charity Baptist Church of "Dr." Greg Estep in Beavercreek Ohio regarding the corrupt Westcott/Hort text of the Bearing Precious Seed Spanish New Testament Of "Dr." Charles Keen(or Kean) of First Baptist Church of Milford Ohio that was being pawned off to many Baptist churches as "The KJV In Spanish!". I still have the BPS Spanish NT, it's word for word the text of the Reina-Valera of 1901, that follows the Westcott/Hort text. We were prevented from meeting with Dr. Ruckman because he refused to address the issue that he was wrong and failed to check out what he endorsed before endorsing it. I quote William of Occam: "Oops". We were prevented bodily from getting within proximity of Dr. Ruckman by "Dr." Estep and two young men who were bodybuilders, Ruckman's bodyguards. When I made the statement to the men and women with me that let's not waste anymore time and head for the street ministry, one of the young men made an obscene remark I won;t repeat for the sake of the women in this forum. I won't repeat it for the sake of the men, either. By Dr. Ruckman's fruits ye shall know them. On four occasions I wasa approached secretly by four men, PBI graduates and members of Charity Baptist, who told me they had examined the BPS NT and that we were "right" about it. I told them, kewl, come down on the street with us, let's win some souls to Christ this weekend. I was told four times by these four men, PBI graduates, blood-bought Christian men, "I h'ain;t witnessin' to no n****rs!" By Dr. Ruckman's fruits ye shall know them. Grace and peace Solomon, you need both. You also need to stop being a respecter of persons. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman has been in the ministry of reconciliation over 62 years now, is 89 years old, has macular degeneration, degenerative disk disease of the lumbar veterbre, has done much to champion the inspiration of the KJV, God's inspired words in English, and also wasn't nailed to a cross 2000 years ago for you or me. Tony |
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It was a blessing to travel to MD two nights last month and hear him preach again. I forgot how funny he was when preaching. He preached "A Great Woman" and "W.A.T.C.H." to whom it may concern. |
I believe Gen 9:24-27 to be somewhat misunderstood.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. I have been reading a series of articles that show that Shem, Ham, and Japheth represent the triune parts of a man, Shem represents the Spirit, Ham represents the Body, and Japheth represents the Soul. And history validates this. The Shemites have been responsible for the great religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The Hamites have been responsible for practical technology and inventions, while the Japhethites have had a leading role in philosophy and science. Now these are general statements, but generally they are very true. As for Ham's descendents being servants, this is not altogether as terrible as it seems. The Lord himself said of servants; Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. So, the Lord Jesus himself exalted the role of the servant, as he was a servant himself. That said, being a servant is a very hard and difficult occupation. And the descendants of Ham in many respects have not enjoyed the fruits of their own labors. One of the articles I read showed the inventions that have benefitted all mankind that have come from the descendants of Ham. Look at this impressive list of accomplishments of the Hamitic peoples Quote:
And we even see the sons of Noah in the crucifixtion of Jesus. He was condemned to death by the Semites (Jews), his cross was carried by a Hamite; Matt 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross. And Jesus was put to death by a Japhethite (Romans). So even in account we see the three sons of Noah, named in order of Shem, Ham, and Japheth as they always are. But Simon of Cyrene did not do evil here as the Jews and Romans did. He carried the cross, again, he was a servant. So, I think scripture does support this theory to a great degree. |
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Brother Winman,
I think your post has a very interesting perspective. S-H-J representing the triune parts of man, and Christ as a man becoming a servant thus identifying Himself with those in the most humble circumstances, even that of Canaan, Ham's youngest son. I wouldn't be surprised if all three lines were represented at the cross as you propose. There was a large Jewish settlement in Cyrene and Simon was probably a Jew come to Jerusalem for the Passover but still, I think there is something there. There are Ethiopian and other non-European Jews living in Israel today. Proverbs 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren. Jennifer |
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Eph. 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Col 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven. No curse to be a servant was placed on "the descendants of Ham", the curse was on Canaan's descendants, that they would serve the children of Israel, and the prophecy never came to pass, instead of making the Canaanites servants, Israel adopted their culture and religion. It never ceases to amaze me that folks stand united when it comes to the Deity of Christ, His sacrifice for sins, the inspiration and primacy of the King James Bible, and when the topic of dispensational truth, the errors of denominational traditions, and the true place of the Negro race in the scheme of things, then people are stricken just as dumb as a sack of untuned banjos. Grace and peace friends Tony |
Call me esoteric if you will but I believe the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand but so deep that I believe we will study it for all eternity without plumbing the depths of it.
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As I mentioned on another thread, Brother Ruckman is still preaching with great power, truth and yes—humor! If you have never heard Dr. Ruckman preach a sermon in person, rattling off huge portions of scripture from memory while creating one of his 8 foot long full color chalk drawings YOU ARE MISSING A GREAT BLESSING. I have never heard a man teach the Bible like Bro. Ruckman, he has stood as a warrior for the KJV (with no apologies to any scholar or school) longer than many have been alive, and he's been a great blessing to me over the years. In my experience, when Ruckman preaches he captures the entire audience no matter the age, every person in the building is absolutely enthralled by the message from God's Word, it's peculiar—he delivers the message with authority like only a small handful of men I have seen over the years. He is getting old but still looks great, and with his hand to hand combat training I'm sure he could easily kill me with a spoon or his finger nail. If you have to travel a little and get a hotel room to hear him preach, do it... it's worth it. I encourage everyone to experience some of his services in person before Dr. Pete goes home to be with the Lord... here is his schedule: July 11-12, 2009 Atauga Heights Baptist Church 1393 Highway 31-N Prattville, AL 36067 Pastor Mike Matheny (334) 322-3222 August 7-9, 2009 Bible Believer's Baptist Church 3857 Hartley Road Jacksonville, FL 32223 Pastor David Peacock (904) 260-8370 |
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there was a poster last year who had made this exact same claim and stated the same story almost word for word. I think that poster was banned for either being a sophist arguer or a Bible corrector. or was it "Just a Thought" who shared that same story? Does any one else remember who it was who shared that same story. the other poster I think posted the comment the Bodybuilder made though. |
Chette,
I was wondering, have you ever met Bro. Ruckman or been to one of his services? |
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C'mon guys! There are a dozen threads on the forum where Dr.Ruckman can be discussed. |
Sorry Tim, don't mean to hijack but I was talking to Chette. See I have met Bro. Ruckman, and I have seen him preach many times, in many different churches in different cities all over the place going back well over 25 years. And I have never even once seen him use "body guards." :rolleyes:
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Boy, I think people completely misunderstood what I was saying.
I agree 100%, that the curse was on Canaan. That said, in the history of man, those peoples who could be traced with accuracy to either Shem, Ham, or Japheth do seem to have certain characteristics. This is not saying anything detrimental whatsoever about any family. All are equally important and have made significant contributions to mankind. The descendents of Shem have generally been religious or spiritual types. The great religions of the world for the most part originated with these people. The descendents of Ham have been people "of the earth" to a degree. They were not so interested in religion, or even science. They are the doers. They invent practical solutions to practical problems. So, as I showed in my post, they developed machines, tools, ships, medicines, domesticated animals for use and much more. Those of Japheth have been the thinkers. Not spiritual thinkers, but philosophy and science. The Greeks are a great example. They have been important in law and government. Now, these are all general statements, but I believe there is much truth in them. Of course there are exceptions to this general observation. And as time has passed all the families of man have mixed and clear distinctions can no longer be made. But in no way am I saying anything derogatory about any people. All have made important contributions to mankind. As a man is not complete without spirit, body, and soul, mankind needs these three types to be successful. The article also pointed out that the Gospel also went out in order to the Shemites (the Jews), the Hamites (the Ethopian eunuch), and Japhethites (Cornelius). Yes, I know the scriptures do not say these things directly. But scriptures can say many things indirectly that are still true. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. When Jesus said this, there were no NT scriptures. In the OT there are no direct scriptures which tell us distinctly about Jesus. But the story is there. When Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son Isaac, when Abraham said; Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. This was the scriptures testifying about Jesus. But it was indirect. |
Gee, how nice, another thread turned into a debate over Ruckman.
Well, at least this proves this isn't a "Ruckmanite" forum. There's at least a silver lining... |
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