You hate the truth of God..

No, I hate your manmade system of theology. Pretty arrogant of you to think you have ALL truth and everyone else is out to lunch!

the idea of Calvinism is that if you don't agree with them youare Arminian. they however do preach another Gospel the preach the that salvation is by Irresitable Grace and not by faith in Christ Jesus.

They teach that Free-will is a state of sin. and most of their arguments are circle logic. By their own admittance most don't agree with their own doctrine of Limited Attonement.

They take most of their proofs from Scriptures that are out of context. and the root of their supposed teaching comes from Augustine who was a Roman Catholic as well as a Alexadrian sect that enjoyed correcting the scriptures.

I don't bother to much trying to debate them any more because most of the time they only want to soundoff their doctrine they have learned froma man rather than grow int he knowledge of Gods word.

most of their logic in giving forth their view often reminds me of the JW's

If I may state my views concerning your question "Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation?".

I will answer in the affirmative, Yes!

Let me give you this one verse:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In order to understand that verse, we have to look at the state and spiritual condition of mankind.

State:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Condition:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Therefore, if "all" are under sin, then God has to save "all". For we were all subjected to vanity, not willingly.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Consistent with the bible as a whole, God created mankind subject to vanity, but at the same time provided a means by which the subjected would find hope.

God took care of the salvation problem, but our behavioral problem is ours to manage by blessings and or consequences.

Blessing if we do right, and consequences for sins committed.


Now, how many people can we save from the suffering of spiritual blindness, to that of helping to open the eyes to see Gods spiritual blessings, riches and life?

With the burden of trying to save the world from eternal damnation be lifted up from our shoulders, can we now concentrate on loving our neighbor, regardless of their beliefs?

Calvinism, Armainianism , they were instrumental in furthering the evolution of spiritual growth, meaning that Christianity was once a child, but since, hath grown and growing still to adult hood.

A child has to go through trials and tribulations, having to experience it all in order to learn spiritual truth.

The body of Christ has come along ways, but not yet to full maturity in general, but for individual growth, well, that is up to each individual.

We are responsible to our selves to learn at our own pace, always seeking truth so that we may conform to that of the stature of Christ.

My views and opinions only, not dogmatic theology, but information that may help some who like myself were stuck on key verses.

Mine was this one:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
God revealed to me the answer I sought for, and to my surprise and with gladness, it was not what the normal understanding of it is, but quite different that has to do with my post.

Peace>>>AJ

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

Jerry,
You say "and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved , but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ". But yet a third of the world has not even heard the Gospel Of Christ. Paul says on Rom 1:16 the gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. Again in Rom 10:14 he says "how can they believe in the one they have not heard." You refer to "their personal choice either to receive or reject." But, in John I:13 to those that believe have become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husbands will but born of God. Why do many people that hear the gospel not believe? God answers that question in John 10:26 when he says "but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep". These are some hard truths that might not be easy to swallow but they are right from God's own word. They are up to us to either believe or reject.

Yes, I believe God saves all. And I hope you are not offended by my saying so.

The question was about predestination?

And so I gave my views on it, whether its accepted or not, in my view has no bearing on eternal salvation for Christ paid the price for that which was lost, and all mankind was lost.

The fact that not all know the good news, is where we come in.

To save some from the gates of hell, which is the suffering and pain of this existence without God in the heart.

If we believe in the good news and regard it in our hearts, than we are born again, alive in the spirit forever more, and never to die again.

We are equipped to minister to those who don't know so that we may save some.

Peace>>>AJ

Romans 1-3 teaches that there is enough evidence in creation and in our conscience to prove there is a God - and when man follows the light he has and searches for God, God has obligated Himself to reveal the truth to them. That is why there are stories of African tribes who turned from their idols and then God sends a missionary thousands of miles into uncharted territory to bring them the Gospel. ALL THE WORLD knew the truth at one point in time, but as Romans 1 indicates, their foolish hearts were darkened when they turned to idolatry. At the same time, Romans 10 and Psalm 19 indicates that the truth has gone into all the world. Man is without excuse - and God is faithful to reveal Himself to those who sincerely seek Him.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples here - those who already were saved, and indicating the sign of their salvation is obedience. He is not speaking to the lost and calling them His sheep. The Bible nowhere teaches that God saves someone THEN they can respond to the Gospel. The opposite is true: God convicts (NOT REGENERATES) and enlightens the lost, they respond to the Gospel THEN are saved.

Look, the Bible does not teach universalism in any sense. That is foolish thinking and a denial of many clear Bible passages where God gives man a choice. A choice implies the possibility of refusal and rejection of the truth and of the Messiah.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[QUOTE=jerry;3377]Romans 1-3 teaches that there is enough evidence in creation and in our conscience to prove there is a God - and when man follows the light he has and searches for God, God has obligated Himself to reveal the truth to them. That is why there are stories of African tribes who turned from their idols and then God sends a missionary thousands of miles into uncharted territory to bring them the Gospel. ALL THE WORLD knew the truth at one point in time, but as Romans 1 indicates, their foolish hearts were darkened when they turned to idolatry. At the same time, Romans 10 and Psalm 19 indicates that the truth has gone into all the world. Man is without excuse - and God is faithful to reveal Himself to those who sincerely seek Him.
Jerry, I agree that creation is enough to prove the existence of God, but just "believing in God" is not enough to bring one into a saving relationship with Christ. Even the devil "believes in God". If you can be saved by looking at creation why are we wasting all our time to send out missionaries? Rom 10:9 says that you must confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved. How could somebody that has not even heard the name Jesus Christ confess with his mouth that"Jesus is Lord"? Also you said that ALL THE WORLD at one time knew the truth, but according to Eph 2:11-12 prior to Christ the Gentiles were WITHOUT HOPE AND WITHOUT GOD IN THIS WORLD. Again,we have a passage that sounds hard but nevertheless it is from God's own word!

Up until the tower of Babel, the whole world knew of God - and there were no Jews until Abraham (that means everyone that was saved prior to that time were Gentiles - in the OT we see many Gentiles getting saved, including Ruth, Nebuchadnezzar, the whole city of Nineveh).

There are various places in the Bible where God teaches if someone searches for Him, He will reveal Himself - ie. He has obligated Himself to bring them the Gospel, so it does not matter their background. Their conscience and creation reveals there is a God/Creator - and if they truly search for Him He will reveal Himself to them.

Jerry, May I point out something to you? The whole purpose of the coming of Jesus was to save that which was lost.

Now, in order to do that, all had to be lost, otherwise, why come if mankind could save self?

Peace>>>AJ

Who said anything about mankind saving themselves? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit works upon the conscience of the lost to convict them of their sins and their need for a Saviour - then opens up their understanding to the Gospel when they are presented with it.

When lost pagans in Africa are convicted that the idols they have created are false, and they realize through the wonder of creation that there is in fact a Creator, through the work of their conscience realize they have sinned against Him, and cry out to Him to reveal Himself to them, He has obligated Himself to do so. This is stated in various places in the Bible. I can try to locate those verses later, if needed.

Acts 17:24-27 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jerry, The way you are using these verses seems to suggest that you believe a man does not have to hear the gospel message to be saved. Do you realize that this contradicts what Paul says in Rom 10;14. Also Rom 1:16 says the Gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. I think I pointed these things out in a prior post but you did not respond to these particular verses. Got one more question for you? IF it is true that we do not have to hear the gospel in order to be saved would it not be better if we sent all the missionaries home and used that money to feed the many starving souls around the world?

Feel free to ask for clarification, but don't read into what someone is not saying. I very much believe that hearing and believing the Gospel is essential for salvation. My point is that God is not limited to someone's background or access to the Bible, etc. to get them saved. If they are sincerely searching for Him, He will bring the truth to them.

Are we going to go around in endless circles here? Look in the Bible for passages with the words "search" or "seek" in them. You are bound to find some of the ones I am referring to.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 2:14-16 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 3:19-26 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 10:12-20 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

I've had more pain and suffering since I got saved than before!