Just cause many here don't follow Calvin or his buddy Augustine (the father of the Catholic church) doesn't make us lost. Perhaps you are not one of the elect. How do you know - since you never made a personal choice to trust Christ? At least those who come to Christ the way the Scriptures command us to have that Biblical assurance when we have done so.

God's Plan vs. Man's
Election is based on God's foreknowledge. we are called unto obedience
System of Grace
We are predestined to be like Christ when saved.
We are chosen to be holy.
predestined to the praise of His glory. not predestined to salvation.
Summary
Why did the Jews not attain? because it was by works and not faith. why do they reject the truth?God's predestined plan of salvation is by grace not works. God's election is to service. God's predestined plan is to save by mercy not works.
RE: the total depravity of man.
Scripture teaches us that fallen man has no righteousness that is acceptable before God and that even man's claimed righteousness is as filthy rags. Although, what does the Bible say about man's will or his ability or inability to respond to God's grace?
It's true that no sinner naturally seeks after God. Although that is not to say that he cannot believe the gospel when it is offered to him in the context of God's enlightenment, conviction, and drawing,

Good stuff, Beth!

Only the elect are called unto obedience and the new covenant blood gives that obedience to the elect as a gift..

ezk 36:

23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Look at all that Sovereignty, awesome nothing is left to freewill..The obedience of the elect is ordained by God..

rom 6:

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

God should be Thanked when we obey, because its a result of His will not mans freewill..

The elect are those that trust in Jesus Christ and are saved. The Body of Christ, that God foreknew would be members of the Body of Christ.

Yes they are but you just have everything backwards, they trust because they are saved, they are born again..Its the nature of a new born nature to trust in its proginator..so trusting is resultive of being born of God..

Foreknew means foreloved, he loved the elect who had been chosen in christ before the world began..

Jesus does not foreknow everyone that way sorry..

here is proof matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them, he never loved them intimately as he did those he elected, or choose..

God did not foreknow or love easu in the same way..

rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I see you are disregarding the efficasiousness of the covenant blood and all the references I showed you of Gods I wills..

You have nothing to comment on those great truthes, why not ?

We must reconcile the following scripture:
"foreknowledge" is a word that means simply that God foreknew what would happen or to know beforehand, (foresee). It is the Greek word "prognosis". The Calvinist will try to redefine "foreknowledge" into "foreordination". It is the same basic Greek word that is translated "foreknowledge" in 1 Pet. 1:2, which says the believer is "elect according to the foreknowledge
of God."
The example of Esau and Jacob does not refer to election pertaining to personal salvation but to election pertaining to nations in God's
overall program. Romans 9:12 makes this clear. "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." The promise of God to Rebecca was about
the elder son serving the younger, not about their personal salvation. and of course Edom did serve Israel.

The passage you bring up has to do with how God sovereignly chose Christ's lineage.

It is true God is sovereign. It is His sovereign plan of salvation by grace. He receives all of the glory for the saving of man from the wage of sin.

We must reconcile God's sovereignty and the responsibility of man. That is what some of us are attempting to do. All scripture is God breathed and scripture is the Word of God, all of it true.

I have did a whole study on romans 9, there is nothing you can teach me about that chapter, for it is definitly about salvation..

Nope, you wish it did, but the scripture could have said fore saw, but thats not the emphasis, its forelove..to know in a intimate way..

also the word foreknowledge is used twice..

acts 2:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1 pet 1:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Never does it denote a just seeing in advanced..

strongs definition:

1) foreknowledge

2) forethought, pre-arrangement

Just like in acts, the death of christ was a pre arrangement by the determinate council of God..

The elects obedience is by the same, the determinate counsel of God..

The non elects disobedience is by the determinate counsel of God..

1 pet 2:

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Gods foreknowledge and determinate counsel determines everything..

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

So your definition of foreknowledge is corrupted, it does not mean foresaw..sorry..

I've been avoiding getting into this discussion, and maybe I should think better of it at this point as well, but here I am diving in. I don't want to get too much into the particulars though, just make a general statement.

I am a Calvinist and remain a Calvinist through all this discussion, but I appreciate the Arminian position too, I just don't think it has the solid scriptural foundation the Calvinist position does. There is scripture on both sides of this argument and that being the case I think we have to say that in a sense both sides of it are true. Scripture for instance says both that God hardened Pharoah's heart and that Pharoah hardened his own heart. Both are true. Scripture says God predestined us to salvation (yes I think it's biased hairsplitting to claim that's not what is meant) but scripture also exhorts us to believe time and time again. Even a Calvinist who believes in the absolute sovereignty of God also believes that we are responsible for our own choices and actions and will be judged on them in the end. We also believe in evangelism and pleading with people to come to the Lord for salvation -- because believing in God's absolute sovereignty does not give us permission to be passive about these things -- scripture also exhorts us to action. We are not in a position to know God's decrees, who He plans to save and who not; therefore we give the gospel to all and we pray for our unsaved loved ones.

The Arminian position seems to be that it would be unfair of God to predestine or foreordain the outcome of all things and yet hold us responsible for our actions at the same time, but isn't this what scripture teaches? Is it unfair of God to harden Pharoah's heart and yet hold him responsible for his hardened heart too? The problem comes from thinking too hard about these things. Scripture says both but you'll give yourself a mental charleyhorse if you try to figure it all out. It's like the Trinity. We can't understand it but we know scripture teaches it. Believe it and leave it to God to sort out.

How can God foresee something without also foreordaining or predestining it? Are you saying that God has all knowledge but not all power? What kind of God wouldn't have all power? What kind of "election" is it that only elects those who have already chosen from their own free will? Kind of takes all the stuffing out of the word. Do any of you think you had the ability in yourselves to choose Christ? Should I say Oh God knew at the foundation of the world that I'd choose Christ because I'm so smart? That's a kind of works thinking. I don't think many Arminians really think they chose Christ because they were so smart in themselves, I think they believe God had to give them the understanding and faith in order to do so. Much of what has been said here shows they know that God saved them, they didn't save themselves, and that if God doesn't sustain them they won't be able to persevere to the end. They recognize their own weakness and their need of God for all of their Christian life. This is really all Calvinism is saying.

connie says

Then you are what I call a intellectual believer, you only believe with your head the gospel truthes and not with a spiritual conviction if you appreciate God dishonoring doctrine like arminianism..

My, namecalling seems to be your method here. How about a little charity? A little benefit of the doubt? A little grace to those of a different persuasion? I'm trying to get at the motivations I believe underlie the Arminian doctrines, although I don't accept the doctrines.

Both sides of this dispute consider the other side to be God-dishonoring. Calvinists see Arminians as denying the sovereignty of God, cutting God's power down to human size and allowing for human merit in believing in Christ, and making a mockery of the scriptural concepts of predestination and election; Arminians see Calvinists as denying God's love and mercy and making a mockery of all the commands and calls to righteousness and all the scripture that exhorts us to believe and obey.

I believe that Arminians are putting too much trust in their own understanding rather than in what scripture actually says, but this can also happen on the Calvinist side because the Calvinist doctrines are not easy to grasp -- this is why it is so easy for people to fall into "hypercalvinism" and lose enthusiasm for evangelizing and even for obedience. That does happen in Calvinist circles although it's not true Calvinism. It's just that the human intellect can't readily grasp things from the perspective of God. So at some level arguing over it doesn't really get us anywhere.

Calvinism and Arminianism are the two extremes. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We use scripture to reconcile the differences.

Please quote the verses referring to predestination - not one of them states or implies we are predestined to salvation. What they do teach is that those who are in Christ are predestined to an inheritance, to be comformed to the image of Christ, to be adopted, to be called, justified and glorified.

You are right - neither extreme is Biblical. Both are unbalanced.

OK

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This is exactly what I meant by biased hairsplitting on the Arminian side. Who are they who are adopted as children by Jesus Christ to himself but those He has saved? There is no distinction. If we are saved we are adopted. If we are adopted we are saved. Knowing that adoption as children is what salvation means is important, but it is just word games to make the kind of distinction Arminians want to make here.

Eph*1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Exactly the same situation. Who obtains an inheritance but those who have been given salvation? This is just another way of describing what our salvation entails. How could we be predestined to the one but not the other?

And it is hard to understand why Arminians are so dead set against the idea that we are predestined to salvation since I know you don't think you saved yourselves. But that is the only alternative. If you were not chosen for salvation from the foundation of the world, but your salvation was only foreseen by God, then the only explanation is that somehow you had the power in yourself to choose salvation, which God looking down the centuries foresaw you would have, and that would be the same as salvation by your own ability or salvation by works, something you could boast of. Oh, God didn't predestine me, He just saw that I would have the spiritual acuteness to choose Christ. I know you don't believe that but by insisting on this distinction you are implying it.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And who would be predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son but those who are saved? Again, you think you can believe that all the qualities and privileges of salvation could be predestined but not salvation itself? That just makes no logical sense.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Same as the above. This is all talking about those who are saved. Or DO you think you saved yourself and now that you got yourself saved God has predestined all these percs of salvation for you? How is that different from saying that you somehow earned salvation by your own power and deserve all the privileges of salvation that you earned by your own works?

I am not an arminian - and I don't base my doctrine on guessworks. What those passages on predestination deal with is what God will do for or with those that get saved. You are hard-pressed to find ANY Bible verse that states anyone is predestined to salvation, predestined to Heaven or Hell - and there is a big difference between these two positions.

I don't think the two doctrines are the extremes of some hypothetical correct position that supposedly lies in the middle somewhere, but I do think that's what people end up doing with it because of our inability to grasp things at God's level. Doctrinally I believe Calvinism is correct, and Arminianism is simply the result of being unable to fully grasp the Calvinist perspective, which is quite understandable since many Calvinists don't get it right either. It's easy to think yourself into a muddle on this subject.

They are really the equivalent of salvation, they are part of what salvation is, what salvation means, and separating them is to make a false distinction. It makes no sense that those things would be predestined but not salvation itself. You are simply taking advantage of the fact that scripture didn't use the term "salvation" explicitly, but it is certainly implied.

I think connie you are relying upon human ingenuity and not the spirits teaching of the elect.. God reveals his truth to babes..and hides it from the wise and prudent..

matt 11:

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

An understanding of the gospel truth comes from God not man.

1 jn 5:

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I am just trying to speak in a way so as to be understood and hoping to be fair to my opponents. You seem to be implying that your opponents are not saved but I do not believe that. Believers all have different abilities and degrees of faith and none of us is going to get all of God's revelation right.

Jerry, you don't sound like an Arminian in many things you've said, such as this post:

But arminians are not believers..its a cult like mormons or jws they deny a key doctrine, salvation by grace..thats a serious serious infraction..

Paladin's open post:

This is a typical misunderstanding of Calvinism. God is not forcing anything on anyone, or refusing salvation to anyone. He clearly says He wills that all be saved and He gave us the command to take the gospel into all the world so that all may hear it and believe or not believe. Everyone will be responsible for their sins and for their response to the gospel. What the scriptures about God's sovereign election and power do is give us a glimpse behind the scenes, seeing things from God's perspective, but from our perspective things remain the same -- we are given the choice and we make it and it's our responsibility. The concept of predestination really only becomes a help to us when we need to be sure our faith is resting on something solid and not on our own shaky wills.

I know that as long as I was in Arminian churches where they are always explaining hard times in terms of the devil's doing it, I would feel uneasy, as if the devil had way too much power. It was only when I had a grip on the Calvinist perspective that I was reassured that the devil is on God's leash, and that God is in charge of EVERYTHING that happens, absolutely everything. That gave me the assurance that NOTHING can happen without God's willing it. NOTHING. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He doesn't make His decisions in present time but in eternity, so of COURSE we are predestined to salvation.

No they do NOT deny salvation by grace, Beloved57, they just get hung up on the wrong idea that if God is in charge of everything then we are like robots.

They deny salvation by grace because salvation by grace is the same as election of grace..

rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace,[election] then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The above is synomous to eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The whole Ideal of grace is election..


They also deny that jesus christ death saves alone ..

And you too connie are not a true believer mam if you believe a false gospel is a true gospel there is only one gospel according to paul..

gal 1:

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Sure God refuses salvation to the non elect, he is against their conversion actively..

jn 12:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

God was actively against these people conversion.. vs 40 is plain to him who has eyes to see..

Indeed.

Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Why do you deny that God does things ("for this cause") based on man's actions? The Bible tells us that God does not exercise infinite patience in waiting for people to respond to his callings. It also tells us that he will actively harden their hearts and "give them up" over to a "reprobate mind" (verse 28). I'll not even get into the problems of applying passages dealing with national repentance to individual salvation....

Nevertheless He sends us "into all the world" with His gospel. That was my only point. As far as anything we can judge by ourselves about any particular situation where God has not revealed His will to us, as He did in that case, God's word is given to all and it's their responsibility how they respond to it. How He deals with individual persons is up to Him and beyond our ability to anticipate. Again, as far as we can judge on our own, the gospel is to be given to all and it is their choice how they respond.

Just curious: Do you actively evangelize, talk to people about the gospel? Do you pray for unsaved people?

And to add to that:

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

What does this tell you about the sequence of events? And do you note the phrase "they knew God?" How do you explain this away? Clearly these (given over to a reprobate mind) where not God's Elect in the Calvinist sense. So how is it that Paul says they "knew God," since only "the elect" know God?

This is another example of the Bible making plain man's responsibility and evident ability to respond to God's callings.

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

So with your reasoning the demons here were elect too..

acts 19:

15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

please give me a break..

man has a instinctive nature to know about a god a higher being..thats all romans 2 is saying man..

This is another example of your poor teaching skills, for here in this verse grace brings salvation not offer it..

It brings it with power , for grace is Gods power it reigns..

rom 5:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

paul teaches this about grace 1 cor 15:

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Grace is Gods effectual spiritual power eph 3:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Now you explain these verses as I explained your misquote of the titus passage..

No. The problem for you is that Romans makes it clear that God reveals himself to everyone, not to just the elect.

I'm tired of your personal snipes at everyone who doesn't agree with your devotion to Calvinism. It is obnoxious. I already warned you about making your responses silly and personal. Please go away from the forum for a week. I will help with a temporary suspension of your account just in case you are tempted to return too quickly.

....Brethren, is this debate achieving anything? Is doctrine being corrected, causing people to fast and pray over this issue, or are we bickering? When I started this thread, I knew there would be fierce debate, but I did not image it would rise to this level, and drag on for so long (foolish me).

I haven't posted much because I am a young Christian trying to make up my mind, in hopes of following God's teaching, but is progress being made here?

Not really. I think a good discussion of these matters can be very edifying. As I have already said, I used to be a Calvinist, and being corrected by elder brethren led me to study the issue more thoroughly. When I read The Other Side of Calvinism the matter was finally settled for me.

Telling someone they are not a child of God because they do not accept the tenets of Calvinism (or any other "ism" theology, for that matter) is certainly not conducive to constructive debate.

Anyway, I believe that both sides of the issue have been covered pretty well in these threads -- enough so that some amount of edification can be gleaned from them. Whether or not further debate will produce any new information of use is a question to which I have no answer but presume in the negative.

Calvinism is very well represented (defended) in the majority of Bible commentaries available. But the best book on the subject, and I can not stress this enough, is The Other Side of Calvinism and if you are earnestly seeking a clear rebuttal to Calvinism for consideration, you owe it to yourself to read it.

Thank you, Brandon. I agree that I think both cases have been made here, and I think it wouldn't hurt for us all to stop the Calvinism debate (as all edifying has already been done).
Thank you for helping me with my confusion, and Brandon, I'll read it, and I pray that that will settle it in my heart.

I started the thread because I could not accept Calvinism, but so many of my "more doctrinally sound" friends were Calvinists (Oh, how I hate intimidation!).

I see no prgress in further debate.

Calvinism is vain philosophy, and not biblical, despite having mixed truth in it. Arminianism is even worse than calvinism (loss of salvation, Lordship salvation).

The only truth is the Bible.

In some regards, the Bible is clear that it is God who calls and chooses, and yet, at the same time, the Bible is clear that man has a choice to reject or recieve the gift of God. The Bible is the truth, not the philosophies of men.

you misunderstand romans because God reveals himself to a selected people..

matt 11:

25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


These statements by jesus would be meaningless with your understanding..

God does not reveal himself to everyone..

Just the general notion men have that their is a man upstairs is not Having God revealed to you , thats basically what the context of romans 2 is saying.

You have a lot to learn bud..

its a shame, but this was predicted long ago..

2 pet 2:

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

The doctrines of grace the acromyn Tulip are foundational for the gospel of Jesus christ..No tulip truth, no gospel sorry..

Not in my Bible. Nice try though...