Grace to Me,
Acts 2:39 doesn't even refer to all the "elect". See context: Acts 2:5-11. Compare also with Jer 46:27 ("afar off"). This verse is addressed to a nation who was "elect" (Isa 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22), and this does not even include you, a Gentile.
But in Tit. 2:13, there are no "could be's" there. "All men" there is all without exception. Compare with 1 Timothy 2:4-6.

Eternal security is a careless doctrine. From God's point of view, He offers it eternally. However, to say we can never lose our salvation is nonsense. Why so many warnings in the NT? The major cop-out is "well, he was never really saved in the first place". Oh,, no? Well, then who will he pray to next time? That "plucking out of the hand" scriptures says noting about someone walking out and away from God of their own free will. Do you really believe the Bible teaches that once you get saved, you can't decide to walk away, later? I had an atheist tell me he was a devoted Christian for a lot of years and he just decided it wasn't real and walked away. So, you say he wasn't saved in the first place? That is careless and presumptuous.

For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.

The answer is found in 2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Note this verse:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Every passage that says you can lose salvation is when it WAS of works. "But now" (Eph 2:13) it is not only NOT of works (Eph. 2:9) or NOT by works (Tit. 3:5), but it is NO MORE of works. Why no more? It once was.
Every passage that says you can lose salvation is also when it WILL BE of works. Why? If it's by grace, one day it will be NO MORE of works. Why "no more" grace someday? It is of grace NOW, but this period of grace does end.

Revangelist,

How exactly do we stay saved?

If I can lose it I want to know how. Tell me exactly how a person can lose their salvation.

Now I can tell you exactly how you can get saved. God does not want us to go to hell. If he did he would not have sent Jesus to die for us. So we know that he gave up his son for our salvation. So we know God invested a lot to get us saved.

God made getting saved very simple. So simple even a child could understand it. If we can lose our salvation I am sure that God would make it so simple for us to understand how we could loose our salvation.

I can tell you exactly how you can get saved. So now you tell me exactly how you can get lost.


How exactly do we stay saved?



Atlas

The word "elect" in the Bible should be rightly divided, too.

God has an elect. This elect rejected God's Elect. So God elected an elect out of the elect in this present elect period. During this elect period, He elected another elect. After this elect period of time, God's Elect will descend from heaven to catch his elect out. After that, God's Elect will regather His original elect from the four winds of the earth. Then God's Elect will come down with all the elects from heaven to reign with His elects on earth.

Good question, atlas! It made me think:)

Grace to Me,
Acts 2:39 doesn't even refer to all the "elect". See context: Acts 2:5-11. Compare also with Jer 46:27 ("afar off"). This verse is addressed to a nation who was "elect" (Isa 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22), and this does not even include you, a Gentile.
thats the point i was trying to make , every time scripture says all it doesn't mean all without exception , its sometimes spoken as a certain group , like a conductor says all aboard does he mean all inclusive or those who have a ticket?
if all have a choice to accept Jesus Christ what do you do with this verse
Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

its obvious that God choose one and not the other before they were born , they don't have no free will , because it is not of him that willeth.
all scripture as a whole has to fit , not contradict , so how does this fit with what your saying that God wants all [ all inclusive ]to be saved ?

For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.
exactly , thats why we have to see how it fits as a whole, the same words can have different meanings , all can mean all inclusive or all in a certain group , saved might mean eternally or saved from ignorance , fear , troubles etc.

jim

Hebrews 2:1 ¶Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


The context of this Scripture is 1st spoken to Christians. Next, If we neglect our salvation, it will slip away from us. Doesn't sound like "once saved always saved" to me.

Revangelist,

Now will you answer my question.


How exactly do we stay saved?




Atlas

The only salvation God gives is eternal - that means it lasts forever. It is also given freely, without works or merit - we could never earn it - that means we can also never lose it.

It is not presumption to believe what God says - and the Bible teaches that if someone rejects the truth and turns from it (apostasizes), they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Even this parable shows that those who later turned away never truly believed in their heart - it was a shallow faith, headknowledge.

Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Agreed -- "all" is a word defined in its context. So for Titus 2:11, we should see what is being said around the verse. Have you read chapter 1?

Titus 1:10-16 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers... who subvert whole houses... They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate....

So you're going to tell me that "all men" in verse 2:11 actually excludes the men spoken of in verses 1:10-16? That, despite the clear flow of the context, the "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" really means "all men except the ones mentioned earlier?"

I just don't buy it. Calvinism wants to redefine too many words in the Bible to suit the system of Calvinism.



I asked before how you handle this verse:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I know what I did with this verse when I was still a Calvinist: I ignored it. Eventually I had to come to terms with the fact that Calvinism makes Christ out to be a disingenuous speaker when he offers the water of life freely to whosoever will. Calvinism teaches that Christ, on the one hand, created men wholly unable to respond to the gospel, and on the other hand, insists that men respond to it anyway. I finally had to address the fact that I was in essence calling Christ a liar, for if there is no whosoever will, then Christ was speaking word entirely void. I repented.

We are saved and kept saved by the keeping power of God. God doesn't force us to get saved. He doesn't force us to stay that way either. You had a choice to receive Jesus Christ, you can choose to walk away from Him.

Sorry, the Bible teaches GOD HIMSELF keeps us by His power - not by our own power or will.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

A truly saved person cannot reject their salvation or the Saviour - even they themself cannot separate themself from the love of God. There are several reasons for this:

1) God regenerates believers and makes them His children - adopted into His family (we cannot be unadopted, unregenerated, or unsaved) - therefore the change is eternal.

2) God chastises His own - a believer could never walk away - they would face the chastening hand of God for their unrepentant sin.

Jerry,

Amen, amen, amen amen,

:D

Thank God for keeping us all saved or we all would end up in hell.


Atlas

When I think about my own best efforts I have to wonder; how could I ever have any peace if thought I could lose my salvation? What a frightening thought!

Thank God that He gives us peace and assurance!!!

Regarding eternal security, first let me say that I believe that unrepentant sin will not result in the loss of salvation (for him already saved), and that God is the Judge and our eternities are in his hands, but what about someone who truly-knowingly denies Christ? Please look at this article,
http://jesus-is-lord.com/walkaway.htm

This article presents the only objections to me accepting the non-calvinist eternal security, that is, PREServation of the saints.

Paladin54,

I read it all my friend. It tells you that you are saved by God but that you keep yourself saved.

Salvation by faith + your works = staying saved. Same ole Catholic song and dance. The Catholics have been singing the song for about 1950 years. It is easy to see why her children the Protestant's song the same old song. They look sound like mommy a lot of the time.

Everyone in the world always wants to add to God works for salvation. The Muslims, Buddhist, and all of the others do it all of the time. You guys think your works can keep you saved. You think you flesh can do good works, and that those works are good enough to keep you saved. You have faith in your own works to keep you saved. You works are as filthy rags. Your works are worthless as far as keeping you saved goes, however you just have to add works into the mix just like everyone else.

If I had to keep myself saved as sinful as my flesh is I'd go to hell for sure. Paul said in the flesh dwells no good thing. I have never saw one person lose their salvation in the Bible. Peter even publicly denied Jesus and he never lost it. King David slept with a mans wife and killed a man and he never lost it. Judas was a 7up christian, never had it never will.


Atlas

Revangelist,

You seem you be saying two things in the same post, Gods keeps us saved but only if we do works to keep yourself saved. You are trying to straddle the fence my friend. It is not working good for you.

So when do we become unborn again? When do we lose our son ship? How exactly can we become unborn again?

I'm going to call my daddy and tell him I am walking away form him and no, longer going to be his son. I was born of him and his works, I can walk away all I like. I am still his child. When I got saved I was born of God's Spirit and his works. I can not become unborn again any more that I can become unborn from my earthly father. This is crazy.


Atlas

Thanks atlas, pray that I can get this whole thing sorted out. It may takea day or two.

Paladin54,

Good luck with that it took me two years to read study and learn the truth.

Atlas

Diligent ,

So you're going to tell me that "all men" in verse 2:11 actually excludes the men spoken of in verses 1:10-16? That, despite the clear flow of the context, the "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" really means "all men except the ones mentioned earlier?"

chapter 1 starts out with Paul spaeking to Titus a believer telling him how to run the Church till towards the end of verse 9 .
Vs. 9 ends with convincing the gainsayers then vs. 10 starts with for connecting the two verses , verse 10 - 16 explain how to do that , they were false teachers , notice the change in what he was talking about in verses 1-9 and how at the end of verse 9 the subject changes to gainsaying and then he goes and explains what they were doing , verse 16 says they were abominable , reprobate , disobedient . chapter 2 verse 1 starts oout with the word but , contrasting what he had just expounded about the false teachers , chapter 2 verse 1-10 Paul reverts back to his original message of verse 1-9 of chapter 1 , chapter 2 verse 11 starts out with the word for , connecting verse 10 with verse 11 , the all spoken of here is the elect.

You need to use quote tags in your reply - so it is obvious what are your words and what are the words you are quoting from the replies of others.

All men, means all in the world, all of mankind.

jerry look in verse 14 of chapter 2 , the verses from verse 11-verse 14 are all conecting there are no contrasting words like but, ect. he gave himself for us , Paul is writting to Titus a fellow believer , that he might redeem us . if Jesus came to give everyone a chance to get saved then what do we do with verses like Rom. 9 or Paul our example that was saved on the damascus road in unbelief , or the verse that says that belief is Keeping a commandment ? If the Word of God is without contradiction which i believe it is , it all has to agree.
1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
jim

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

In this context, the "all men" is referring to all men in the world, the "us" is referring to believers. Just like this verse where every means everyone in the world:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

All means all here:

1 Timothy 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

We aren't under the law we don't keep commandments to get saved , its by grace if we say we have to believe to get saved we are under the law because as i stated earlier we are commanded to believe . our belief is a fruit of the Spirit , we don't believe to get saved , our belief is evidence that we are , did Paul our example believe or was he saved in unbelief ? when he believed , he manifested the evidence that he was saved , before he was persecuting Christians . If we say its by our faith that we are saved then grace is no more grace .
jim

No one ever did - the law was there to show we were sinners and could never fulfill all its requirements.

You just contradicted the Bible - again.

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The preaching of the Gospel came first, then their belief/trust in the Lord, then salvation (the sealing of the Holy Spirit).

I have listed the majority of verses that I have found in regards to "Salvation" on my web page: http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/ - under the section "Bible Lesson" ("Verses on Salvation").

There approximately 14 pages of verses indicating you can't lose it; and about 3 pages indicating that you can lose it. That's nearly 5 to 1 against your proposition.

I have produced the evidence for those of us who believe in the preservation of the saints - please produce (back up your claim: "For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.") your evidence.

And why? WHY would anyone, who knows anything about our sinful nature ever think that we can "keep" our salvation? - if we could, then Christ has died in vain. WHY would anyone cling to the belief (hope?) that we can lose it?

My hope (only hope) is in the sacrifice and shed blood of my Lord. If what He did (By His sinless life & His death and His shed blood) is not enough to not only save me from my "past" sins, but from ALL my sins - then I am in "deep trouble" and so are you my friend.

If there is any man who has ever lived that has been able to thwart the eternal purposes of God then what you say would be true. But I know that no one has, or ever will be able to walk "out and away from God of their own free will".
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We are in the Father's hand and in the Son's hand and we have been "sealed" by the Holy Spirit of God - who is the man that can break that bond? NO ONE!

1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
jerry believing is keeping a commandment.

Do you agree with this verse , that believing is a commandment ?
jim

Yes, God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, He states we must be born again, we are told to obey the Gospel - so, yes, salvation comes by obeying what God has said about how to be saved.

But if you are trying to imply we are saved (and kept saved) by works or obedience to the Law, you are seriously misunderstanding the Bible.

if we say that salvation comes by obedience to commandment keeping then we are under the law and grace is no more grace , it becomes debt. do to get saved , we are not under the law , we don't do to get saved.
its not by works of righteousness which we have done . Paul is our example ,was he saved by his faith or by God's mercy ?
jim

I gave you direct statements from Scripture - those are referring to everyone saved by grace. There is no salvation apart from obeying the Gospel (ie. by obeying His command to trust Christ for salvation). I can give the exact verses if you do not have access to a Bible program or a concordance. If you don't agree with it, take it up with God.

You have only strung together a group of scriptures without understanding them jerry, none of which , teache salvation is by ones obediance..Thats not grace but law..

In fact the elects justfication is by or because of the obedience of another..

rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I didn't say we were saved by obedience to the Law - however, there is no salvation without obeying the Gospel (ie. coming to the Lord for salvation the way He commands us to).

Here are the verses to go with the phrases I used (which you apparently are unfamiliar with):

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Looks like a command to me.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Looks like a "command" to me.

Please take my words in context: "so, yes, salvation comes by obeying what God has said about how to be saved." If you disagree with the verses posted above, take them up with God.

Its what you didnt say, the elect are saved by the obedience of another..


rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Shall means shall..by the obedience of one [jesus christ] many [ those he died for the elect] shall = promise , made righteous that is declared righteous..which means saved..

They repent because they are saved not to get saved..

All those christ died for have been given repentance in the first place..

acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Duh a saviour gives repentance , so those who repent make manifest the gift of Gods grace of repentance..

acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

so you dont have a clue what repentance nor salvation is..lol

What are you talking about? If you want to fellowship here, you might want to do a better job of taking people's comments in context. And yes, I have a very good understanding of what repentance and salvation are as taught in the Bible. The Bible makes it very clear that a lost person must repent or perish, repent of their sins, repent of going their way and turn to the Lord, repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are getting angry and showing your spiritual inadequacy, I have given much scripture and you have failed to refute any air lol..

You have totally disregarded all scripture proof that Jesus saves by himself..

No, I have just disregarded your twisting and overlooking of Scripture. I very much believe the Bible - all of it - just not your wacky interpretation. Even if you think you are totally right in what you are teaching, you might want to actually apply some Bible to yourself:

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Scorning and belittling others is not love.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You are not patient in your teaching - you certainly are not gentle or meek - and you haven't done much teaching, just knocking others that don't see the Bible through Calvinist-coloured glasses.

I know the truth hurts doesnt it ? You keep rejecting it..

That what you term calvinism, at least the doctrines of grace aspect, that of

Particular redemption, unconditional election, Mans spiritual ruin and inabilty, Irresistable efficasious grace, and preservation of the elect, these are foundational gospel keys ..A rejection of these truthes make manifest a heart unrenewed by grace..void of spiritual illumination.