Stephen,

In the resurrection, or at the Rapture, we physically receive the Image of God, the same image that Adam was originally created in. In Luke, Adam is called "the son of God," and he was created in God's image, but in Genesis 3, Adam begat Seth who was after his own image. Because of the fall of man and sin entering into the world, we are born in Adam's image, but reborn in God's image (spiritually).

In the rapture and coinciding resurrection of the dead, we receive our glorified bodies, which are physical images of God. That's what a "son of God" is: an image or "copy" of God. The angels are simply copies of God, Jesus was the image of the Invisible God, and when we are born again, we are made in the image of God.

In eternity, we are in effect "little Jesuses," or identical copies of Him, which is why Jesus said we would be as the angels of God, not being married: we are His image!

So no, we don't become angels, though we do become LIKE angels.

Zechariah 12:10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

"AS" - This is another SIMILE describing God's Second Coming to Israel at the END of the Tribulation Period. Note that the "wife" got ready at the Second Coming (Rev. 19).
The Second Coming has the BIG "DAY" for Israel:
Zech 12:3. And in that day ...
4. In that day, ...
6. In that day ...
8. In that day s...
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, ...

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, ...
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, ...
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, ...
7. But it shall be one day ...
8. And it shall be in that day, ...
9....in that day ...

The "kingdom of heaven" parables are all pointing to just that--the coming of the kingdom of heaven.

"Bride" in Swordsearcher
 

"Bride" Isa 49:18; 61:10; 62:5; Jer 2:32; 7:34; 16:9; 25:10; 33:11; Joe 2:16; Joh 3:29; Re 18:23; 21:2,9; 22:17

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, AS A BRIDE doeth.
Context: Isaiah 49:7 "Israel"; Isaiah 49:14, "Zion"

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and AS A BRIDE adorneth herself with her jewels.
I'm not really sure if the "me" here refers to Isaiah, but this is spoken in the context of Israel being blessed (Isa. 61:3-11) after the "day of vengeance" (Isa. 6:2).

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land BEULAH: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be MARRIED.
5 For AS a young man MARRIETH a VIRGIN, so shall thy sons marry thee: and AS the bridegroom rejoiceth over the BRIDE, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
CONTEXT: Zion (Isa 62:1) and Jerusalem (Isa 62:1,6) at the MILLENNIUM. Isaiah 62:6 "I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,"
METAPHOR: "Thy LAND" shall be "MARRIED".
SIMILE ("AS"): JERUSALEM is AS a "VIRGIN" and a "BRIDE" in the Millennium afterbeing "Forsaken" (Isa. 62:4).

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
CONTEXT: Israel (Jer. 2:14)

Jeremiah 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
"Bride" here does not necessarily refer to Judah and Jerusalem but spoken in this context. See also Jer 16:9; 25:10; 33:11.

Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
"Bride" also does not necessarily refer to Zion, but it is mentioned with Zion in the context.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

"Friend of the bridegroom" - John the Baptist
(How do we know it's John the Baptist? The "friend of the bridegroom... REJOICETH greatly because of the bridegroom's voice", and John says, "This MY JOY therefore is fulfilled.")

"Bridegroom" - Jesus Christ
(I think it's obvious to everybody, with all Scriptural support, that the bridegroom here is Christ.)

"Bride" - Now, WHO IS THE "BRIDE"?
John 3:29 is not about the "bride" but about the "BRIDEGROOM". John is identifying who the BRIDEGROOM is.
Who is the "Bridegroom" John? John says, "He that hath the bride IS the bridegroom."
John assumes that the BRIDE is already there. The BRIDEGROOM is identified to be the One with the BRIDE. Then, who is the bride? To whom is John making the Bridegroom known?
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that HE should be made manifest to ISRAEL, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

John the Apostle recorded the words of John the Baptist in John 3:29. The next time we see the word "bride" is in the book of Revelation written by the same person (Apostle John). Notice how the Church Age epistles was skipped over. There is no mention of the word "bride" in the New Testament except in JOHN and REVELATION, both books written by the same author.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
The word "bride" here, as in some OT passages concerning Jerusalem mentioned above, is not a reference to "Babylon" although mentioned in that context. ("Babylon the Great" is, of course, a counterfeit "bride" of a counterfeit "christ".)

1. John the Baptist defined "bride" (John 3:29) to be "Israel" (John 1:31).
2. John the Apostle defined "bride" (John 3:29) to be "the holy city", "that great city", "New Jerusalem".

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the BRIDE, the Lamb's WIFE.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had TWELVE gates, and at the gates TWELVE angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the TWELVE tribes of the children of Israel:
14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE foundations, and in them the names of the TWELVE apostles of the Lamb.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: ... TWELVE thousand furlongs...
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR cubits, ... (12 times 12)
19-20. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; ...the TWELFTH, an amethyst.
21 And the TWELVEgates were TWELVE pearls; ...
Notice what were absent from John's revelation (Rev. 21):
1. He mentions "twelve apostles" but has no mention of THE ONE APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES.
2. He mentions "twelve tribes of the children of Israel" but has no mention of the ONE CHURCH, WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

With all the SCRIPTURE in front of me, who am I to "force" my pre-conceived idea into what it does not say? With all the few commentaries and theology books available to me eight years ago that say in unison that John 3:29 or Revelation 19 and 21 is "church", I decided to believe GOD'S WORD over man's.

I agree with what you're saying here. However I don't think we'll be identical copies of Christ, as in a mirror image of Him. But I think our bodies will be "like" His.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I've often heard the term "Bride of Christ", but have never thought too much about it and currently don't have a position on it so these are just a couple of observations.

John 3
26. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30. He must increase, but I must decrease.

Looking at the context it's obvious John the Baptist is "the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him," and "rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice:". John was the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord and as a witness of Him so when Jesus came John could say "my joy therefore is fulfilled". If John was not the friend, but as an Israelite a member of the bride of Christ, he would not have said "He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease".

John 1
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

This passage doesn't say anything about a bride or bridegroom. It says "that he (Jesus) should be made manifest to Israel". Was He made manifest to Israel as their bridegroom? Wouldn't it make more sense to say He was made manifest as their Messiah (John 1:41) or their King (Matthew 4:17, 21:1-5)?

I made this explanation:
John 3:29 - John the Baptist is identifying to the bride who the bridegroom is, just like what He did IN JOHN CHAPTER ONE - that Christ should be made manifest to Israel.

Your explanation:
John 3:29 - John the Baptist is the friend of the bridegroom who prepares the way of the Lord (and that can also be seen in John 1:23).

So both of us used John 1 to explain the meaning of John 3:29. John 1 does not say that "the bridegroom be made manifest to the bride", nor does it say that "the friend of the bridegroom prepares the way for the bridegroom"; but we know that John 1 is indeed the CONTEXT of John 3:29. No doubt about it.

Great Work and study Biblestudent!!!!:amen: I agree 100%

This is a good study. I like being challenged and I like to base my beliefs on the Scriptures and not just because someone said so. I appreciate the good research that goes on on this forum. I've read several articles on the bride and there seem to be two main verses that stand out as far as is the bride the church or Israel.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)

and

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2)

These are considered supporting verse. the problem is there is no sound doctrinal verse on to which you can hang them. the two verse you quote are of two different events and Rev 2 needs to have the previous verses added where you see who and what the Bride is. and remember no Bride in mentioned in 2Cor. this is a private interpretation that has been handed down from the RC that was kept in the reformation unto today

Yes, that's right, Bro. Chette. That's what I've seen in Scripture that made me really reconsider my position back then.

I'm curious. Since you reference the verses about the twelve gates and so on in New Jerusalem, do you think that New Jerusalem is the dwelling place of Israel?

NO of course not. all who enter in would mean all who are in the Lamb's book of life may enter in and inhabit the New Jerusalem. the term New Jerusalem in Jewish in flavor and speaks mianly to Israel. But not only Israel will live in it.

Note: Any and all capitalizations are for emphasis. I don't shout nor engage in "flame" wars and don't mean to insinuate that I am flaming or shouting.

Kevin, this is a most unhealthy and untenable simile to point to of the Church being compared to Eve due to this:

Gen. 3:11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Wherein from Scripture do we, this "bride" who was NOT taken from Christ's Body but grafted into it, where do we cause Christ to apostasize and fall from God the Father's grace as did Adam's bride cause him to? I attended a Bride Baptist church after leaving the Church Of Christ, and if ever life imitates art then I was truly The Invisible Man of H.G. Well's novel and movies. every Wednesday night and every Sunday night I was there for two years and had on every attendance exploded, showering the pews with gore and body parts, I would not have been noticed, even after my wife volunteered and cleaned 9 of the church buses towards the end of our involvement. I reseached the movement("Old Lanmarkism) and can find no Scripture from J.M Pendleton or J.R. Graves for the need for a Church Letter, thought I consider Briders saved Christians and not cultic like COC or JWs.

Your reference is good Bride Baptist doctrine, it's not good Bible doctrine however. Scripture with Scripture, studying the similtudes and comparing precept with precept we see:

Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Jer 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
Jer 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.
Jer 16:9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.
Jer 25:10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.
Jer 33:11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Re 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

With all due respect to David Cloud, we can clearly see with no mystery from Scripture that the literal, flesh and bone Bride of the Lamb is the literal RESTORED ISRAEL, and this Bride is represented by the literal CITY of New Jerusalem as Israel's "adornments" and "jewels". Paul said he wanted to present us to Christ LIKE a bride("as"), that is "without spot or wrinkle", but he makes no reference that the Body of Christ is "A" bride or "THE" bride. It leaves future Israel out of the equation, and while the Pentecostals rob Israel of the promises and signs and gifts(and curses) here we have some fundamentalists robbing future and restored Israel of her status as the Bride of Christ

If Landmarkism is correct that means Christ has two brides, which the Scripture says nothing of, only ONE. So we are not Israel(as Catholicism and Protestantism claims), and we certainly are not a city, we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone NOW, and not future as the literal Scripture of Revelation declares this literal Bride to be. An unknown reference to this is in Rveleation, in that Christ the Body will marry Restored Israel, this reference is Revelation 1:6:

6 And hath made us kings(The Body) and priests(Restored Israel) unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Kevin, in Genesis 17 we see the advent of this future Bride:

7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

These two verses and this verse from Exodus cross refer beautifully to Revelation 1:6:

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

I have much experience dealing with Jesus Only-Oneness-William Branham Pentecostals and my first question is, in John 17 did Jesus pray to Himself? I ask of those who believe the Body of Christ is the "Bride", to what purpose is it for Jesus to marry Himself?

This sets off another Claymore mine teaching of mine: The false teaching we are a "priesthood of believers". I have identified the "priesthood" as future restored Israel, the "Bride" that will marry the Lamb, the KING, of whom every member of the present Body is a king(Rev. 1:6)

We are not "priests" of anything; we are part of the HIGH PRIESTS BODY (Hebrews 5:10, 6:20, 9:11).

Grace and peace to you Kevin, and to all.

Tony

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

"Of " and "out of" are different meaning. we are of Christ body by virtue of the Holy ghost Baptism into that body. We therefore are members of his body (body parts), of his flesh (body covering) and of his Bones (body frame) we were not created Out of his body or Out of his bones or Out of his flesh. you would have to privately interpret that in order to hang you doctrine.

This is a very interesting, but difficult subject.

Israel is also a part of the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The body of Christ is separate from Israel and Gentile nations. There are Jews, Gentiles, and the Church.

The main thing I was going for with the Adam and Eve thing was this

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

No type is perfect, but the teaching is definitely there and Paul does compare Jesus to Adam, and I think it's clear from Gen 2 that being of one flesh and bones makes one married, so go blow it out your nose because I never said that the Church was taken out of His body.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Your guys' exposition of Matthew 22 is actually lacking because you make an exposition of it based on half of a sentence. It actually teaches that the Tribulation Saints are guests at the wedding feast, not a bride going to get married, so you guys can go eat a sock for saying I'm twisting the scriptures and inserting words when you're the ones who are.

Verses 3-6 are the Jews who rejected Jesus and crucified Him.

Verse 7 is the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

The exact same thing happens in this passage.

Now in verse 8 it says the marriage is ready so this is obviously Rev 19. The servants go and gather guests who can obviously lose their salvation and their garments (Rev 16:15). You can read in Songs of Solomon and in Psalm 45 which are obviously types of the marriage of the Lamb that there are virgins who are guests.

Luk 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

These guests are waiting to come in after the wedding is done to eat at a feast.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Notice a wedding happens first then a feast.

Verses 10-13 can either be Tribulation saints who were invited but lost their garment (Rev 16:15), or Satan who is bound and cast into the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3), or both.

In light of what I just wrote, Matthew 25 is apparent. The virgins are Tribulation saints (obviously), and according to Luke 12:35-38 they aren't waiting to get married but to go to a feast.

I think you misunderstand the verse brother. It isn't saying that Israel is part of the body of Christ, it is saying that the Spirit baptism breaks down the barriers between Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and puts them into one body together as members. So a believer who was a Jew or Gentile is now a Christian who is a member of the body of Christ, the Church. Israel as a nation is not addressed in this passage, it's talking about individual believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, etc.

The Apostle Paul defines three groups of people - Jews, Gentiles, and the Church:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

In the Church Age, when a Jew believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour he becomes part of the body of Christ (is baptized into it) and is no longer identified as a Jew but as a Christian, even though he is still a Jew by birth.

Israel as a nation is still on the back-burner until a furture time when God will deal with them again, and save them, but until then He only deals with individual Jews who receive Christ as their Saviour and become Christians and members of the body of Christ.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I'm with you on this Bro. Kevin. The type still holds true:

Adam fell into a deep sleep when his rib was taken out of his side to make Eve (Genesis 2:21-23).

The second Adam, Jesus, fell into the "sleep of death" when a soldier pierced his side causing his blood to shed which was used to purchase the Church.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

On the note of purchasing, here is Boaz, a type of Christ, who purchases somebody to be his wife.

Jer 10:16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name.

I think that the Father is the nearer kinsman who has His own inheritence, which is Israel. So the picture would be God the Father giving the Son a wife because He cannot accept that wife to be His without marring His inheritence by abandoning Israel which He hasn't. That would make Israel the inheritence of the Father, and the Church the purchased wife of the Son, given to Him by the Father.

So that He can be "one" with His church, as is the purpose of every marriage:

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Spiritually speaking, I am married to Jesus Christ now (1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit), but not physically, my body is still unsaved, so in that sense I am like a chaste virgin engaged to be married to Christ at a future time up in heaven when I am fully redeemed.

I don;t think we are married to anything right now Matt, I think we are grafted into the Body of the Groom, not the Bride, which was and is to come yet. That grafting with co-equal Gentiles and Jews was the mystery not made known from before the foundation of the world and kept hid in God. At that marriage we will not be God, but in Him and of Him then Christ will make al in all and present the combined Kingdom of Heaven with the Kingdom of God unto the Father, and the story will end where it began. We will be kings(the Groom, the Body) and priests(the Bride, Israel and New Jerusalem) unto God and His Father(Rev. 1:6). The New Heavens, the Universe, will be inhabited and we will then go forth and populate the New Worlds, with a King and Priest ruling over each New World in eternal peace and harmony in a Reality with no death or sin, for all eternity. And the memories of thepresent times, the suffering and injustice will be no more, for all things will be made new again. That's the hope lives in all of us and the hope we give the lost world that through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ we may, Jew or gentile, come to God again after being separated from Him. I didn't get that hope of eternity with a friend closer than a brother htrough reading a KJV, I got it from BELIEVING it.

Grace and peace to you brother, I hope your weekend has been better than mine.

Tony

Grcae and peace to you brither

The Point of this thread was to open the eye's of the Church to unsound doctrines that are taught as sound doctrines. This one being that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Rev 21 of which is most certainly is not.

the are both Israel and Gentiles in the body of Christ. but only Israel is the Bride.

The Bride is not taken out of Christ as Eve was taken out of Adam. While Boaz was a type of Christ. the whole narrative is about a kinsman redeemer. and Christ coming the flesh as a man makes him such for all men. it has nothing to do with the church being a Bride of Revelation 21.

supposing's and best guesses are not support for the Doctrine that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Rev 21. At best this doctrine is false and should be corrected by men who hold God's word in righteousness. to continue to look for ways to keep this beloved false doctrine would put us in the class of them that would hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

your time would be best spent on figuring how we can correct this not further it.

That is why no one should make or teach a doctrine out of types.

Context determines meaning.

I have no problem with all the types anyone is trying to fit into any doctrine as long as they fit; but to make the "bride" of Revelation 19 and 21 the church is totally OUT OF CONTEXT.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

None of these sound C-H-U-R-C-H.

I'm not going to refuse fellowship to a Bride Believer although they will have none with me, particularly in my belief the baptism of John is no longer relevant. I've already testified to my experience in one of these churches. I think Bride Belief is not the sign of an unsaved person. My belief is however that a saved man or woman is past Satan's grasp but he can still rob us of rewards, as Bride Believers are robbed of. This belief also perpetuates a false and Scriptural exclusivity and elitism. God looks at your heart, not your church letter. If Bride Belief is the "...way to hold the church together" , you're throwing your fists in empty air, GOD is what holds the Church together, not a doctrine born in the 1850s. I don't consider Bride Belief to be a cult, but it's interesting we get the Bible "revised" and then all these little false cults spring up in the 1800s claiming to have "restored" the "gospel", I call them in print Re$tored Go$pel$. (Mormon, JW, Church Of Christ, etc.,)

Friends, I was COC for the first 30 years of my life, ain't nobody gonna tell me what damage elitism can do.

As far as I am concerned I am a member of the Groom, not the Bride, as the last message points out, the Scriptures very plainly identify the Bride and it ain;t us. I ain't robbing Israel of what is rightfully theirs.

Grace and peace

Tony

When all is said and done, I still stand by my belief that the body of Christ, the Church, is currently espoused (engaged) to be married to Jesus Christ in heaven above at a future time. The main proof texts for this teaching are Pauline and are 2 Corinthians 11:2, Romans 7:4, and Ephesians 5:21-33. Hence why I believe the "Lamb's wife" (the Lamb being Jesus Christ) in the book of Revelation is the Church, NOT Israel. I have yet to see any clear cut scripture which shows that Israel marries the Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the greatest reason I have not changed my mind about this doctrine is that those here who have debated against it have not supported their argument well, especially where some take the proof texts I mention above and make them all FIGURATIVE or only applicable to the group of people whom Paul is addressing at that time, example: In 2 Corinthians 11:2 when Paul said "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ" it was only meant for that audience of believers in Corinth, which I disagree with, I believe it applies to all of us.

To those of you who have only recently started denying that Christ will marry the Church, please consider the fact that you DID believe it for many years prior to coming to your current conclusion, and maybe cut the rest of us a bit of slack. The truth WILL come out in the end, maybe not this side of glory.

Kevin, I don't think language like this is very becoming:

and

That first one really caught me off guard as it was in answer to my post, which I believe is the only post I've made in this thread (excluding this post).

You do well showing scriptures to support your position, but language like this is not very friendly.

Wow, no kidding.

Stephen

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you, but I don't take kindly to people trying to make stuff up that I never said, and what these Christians are doing is even more malicious than using "harsh" language.

Brother Kiwi, you have not addressed any of the Scriptures we presented. What you did is force Pauline writings into Johanine epistles. To me, that is definitely not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But for the sake of a healthy exchange of ideas, would you please address every Scripture with the word "bride"?

1. Here are clear-cult Scriptures that "the bride" is associated with Israel, and not once ever associated with the Church. (I'm 100% sure there is no Scripture that ever calls the church the "bride".)

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

2. Here is a clear-cut Scripture where Israel will have a future marriage with God.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

3. Now, I want you to interpret LITERALLY who are being referred to LITERALLY in those passages.

4. Would you also please give a definite Scripture that would ever associate the word "bride" to the Church?

5. Or, you may choose to challenge these facts:
1) "Wife" is associated with the Church in Ephesians.
"Wife" is associated with Israel in the OT and in Revelation.
2) "Married" is associated with the Church in Romans.
"Married" is associated with Israel in the OT and in the Gospels.
3) "Virgin" is associated with the Church in 1 Corinthians.
"Virgin" is associated with Israel in the OT.
4) "Bride" is NOT ONCE associated with the Church anywhere, and NOT ONCE mentioned by Paul the apostle to the Gentiles.
"Bride" is ALMOST ALWAYS associated with Israel, and ALWAYS mentioned by the prophets and the apostles to the Jews.

Furthermore, all references with the words "wife" associated with the Church is in the PRESENT and none in the future tense. All references with the words "bride" in the FUTURE TENSE has Israel in the context.

In other words, we have shown all the Scripture concerning "the bride" and found it associated almost always to Israel but no once to the church. On the other hand, you have neither addressed those Scripture, nor were you able to produce one definite verse in Scripture that calls the church a "bride".

For the love of Christ,
Biblestudent

If it is true that Christ "will marry" the church, why then are we "married" (Rom.7) and IS "one flesh" (Eph 5) with Him right NOW.

Again, here is a CLEAR, DEFINITE Scripture that tells us of a FUTURE MARRIAGE BETWEEN GOD AND THE NATION (AS WELL AS THE LAND) OF ISRAEL.

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and THY LAND SHALL BE MARRIED.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so SHALL thy God rejoice over thee.

"Shall" - FUTURE TENSEPlease answer this: When will Isaiah 62:4,5 be fulfilled?

I am not sure I should be participating in this particular discussion, I am no Bible scholar at all, just a simple fellow who reads the Bible and asks God to show me what it means.

But I do find this an interesting subject, and I have read the posts and arguments for both sides. I was taught the church was the bride, I must confess it is difficult to give up something you have been taught like this. But I do want to know the truth, come what may. So, I did a little bit of study on my own.

I approached it a little differently, I did not so much study verses with the word "bride". I wanted to know more about New Jerusalem. If we know who inhabits New Jerusalem, then we know who the bride in Revelations is.

Now, to me, it is still the church, and here are the verses that say so to me.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

And then in Hebrews

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: ) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In Galatians, Paul is talking to the church. And in Hebrews it describes the inhabitants of New Jerusalem including "the general assembly and church of the firstborn".

And then in Revelations 3

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Here, John is speaking to the church.

So, that's my take on this subject.

Hi, winman!
I am also a "Bible student" but no Bible scholar.

We need to rightly divide "church".

WHICH "church"? Please visit my post here (post #5):
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509

There is a church, "WHICH is the body of Christ", and there are churches which are not the body of Christ.

1. The "church of the firstborn" (Exo. 4:22, "Israel is my firstborn") is certainly not "the church, which is the body of Christ".

2. The "seven churches" on the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10; Joel 2) are local churches which existed during the Acts period but will be existing again during the Tribulation period ("Lord's day"). These are certainly not the "church, which is the body of Christ".
That is, if John is speaking to a "church", which "church"? Is he writing to the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace, or to seven local churches which are in Asia on the Lord's day?

3. I have come across Galatians 4:22-31 but I don't really done deeply into it, but Paul is talking about an "allegory" here. It seems that the CONTEXT is not about a discussion on "church" but being "free" from the bondage of the law.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The subject matter here is: "these are the two covenants".

"Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of US all" (Gal. 4:26)

Who is the "US"? If the "US" is the "church, which is the body of Christ", then who is the "mother of US all"?

Is the "mother" and "us" the same?

Brother Winman, I hope you will notice that this is written to the Hebrews and not to the Body of Christ:
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: )
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Israel, which is the "church of the firstborn" (Exo. 4:22; Heb. 12:23) is under NEW COVENANT (Jer. 31:31-34) as well as under the NEW TESTAMENT (Heb 8:8-11; 9:16,17).

The Church, which is the body of Christ, is neither under any OT "COVENANT" (Eph. 2:12) nor under the "new covenant" (Jer 31:31). By grace, however, we were able to be included in the "new TESTAMENT" (2 Cor. 3:6) by grace, as well as by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13; Heb 9:16,17)

I would like to add some more points:
1. In Galatians, it's Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles who is speaking.
2. In Revelation, it's John the Apostle to the Jews who is speaking.
3. Therefore, in Galatians, the context of the "Jerusalem which is from above" is in relation to the Body of Christ; on the other hand, in Revelation, the context is "New Jerusalem" in relation to Israel.

The answers to both are in the very verses. "Us" is believers under the covenant of grace.

Earthly Jerusalem is the bondmaid, Jerusalem which is above is the freewoman.

An allegory is just a representative picture. The bondmaid represents flesh and the bondage of law, the freewoman represents Spirit and freedom and faith.

And you can call John what you wish, he was clearly speaking to churches in Revelations 3.

Revelations 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelations 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Which "church"?

The churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are local churches in the Tribulation period and not the Body of Christ in the Age of Grace.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1. When will the devil be bodily present and literally cast people in prison? When will he put people in tribulation ten days?
2. When will life becomes a "crown", while today, it's a gift (Rom. 6:23)?
3. When will a person has to overcome in order to escape the "second death" (lake of fire)?

Compare the following:
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

with:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdomshall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


1. "Great tribulation" is in BOTH contexts.
2. Ruling in the kingdom is in BOTH contexts.
3. Enduring the great tribulation to the end ("till he come") in order to be saved and enter the kingdom is in BOTH contexts.

The "morning star" is Christ. Do I have to overcome and keep His works until the second coming in order to receive "the morning star"?

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

"covenant of grace"

As I've said, the church is not under any "covenant" but under a "testament". covenant is not the same as a testament. Please read Hebrews 9:15-17.

Covenant does not require death and blood, but a testament surely does.
The church is under the "new testament" by grace (by virtue of the DEATH and BLOOD of Christ), and not under the "new covenant".

Context determines meaning. The context of Revelation 2 and 3 is not Church Age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 16947) Brother Kiwi, you have not addressed any of the Scriptures we presented. What you did is force Pauline writings into Johanine epistles. To me, that is definitely not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Johanine epistles? Brother, I addressed the scriptures that needed addressing in my mind, and they were the ones written to me by Paul the Apostle. I have explained that I don't agree with the way you have handled those texts in dismissing them as figurative only.

While I have certainly appreciated the lengthy posts and citing of many scriptures on your part, I think you're over-dividing the word by more or less saying that John wrote the book of Revelation to Israel, and calling John “the Apostle to the Jews”. Do you even think 1 John 1:9 applies to the Christian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 16947) 1. Here are clear-cult Scriptures that "the bride" is associated with Israel, and not once ever associated with the Church. (I'm 100% sure there is no Scripture that ever calls the church the "bride".)

So what if Paul never called the Church a bride? Paul used the words “espoused”, "chaste virgin", “married”, and “wife” in relation to Christ and the Church, and ALL of those words are associated with the word “bride”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 16947) 2. Here is a clear-cut Scripture where Israel will have a future marriage with God:

I don’t dispute that Israel will be married again to God (Jehovah) in the future, I dispute that Israel will be married to JESUS CHRIST, and that verse above says no such thing. Israel will be reunited with her Husband again, but it’s the Father not the Son.

Historically the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were churches present in John's day.

“…What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.” (Revelation 1:11)

“Write the things which thou hast seen, (the vision of the Glorified Lord Jesus - Rev 1) and the things which are (the seven churches in Asia - Rev 2 & 3), and the things which shall be hereafter; (Rev 4 - 22)” (Revelation 1:19)

Doctrinally they are representative of various churches in any age.

Spiritually the represent the church age from the early church to the present day.

I explained in an earlier post that I believe we are married to Jesus Christ now spiritually, but that the physical union is yet future, when our bodies are redeemed.

I've got no problem with this passage, it likely refers to the Millennium, but where does it say Israel will marry Jesus Christ? Also you forgot to highlight the double usage of the simile "as" in Isa 62:5, as you have so often highlighted in your previous refutations.