Biblestudent here is the verse your asked for

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam,prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I think it is clear that God's word shows that Enoch prophesied so that would make him a prophet

Enoch is also included in the genealogy of Jesus Christ

Oops, I see Tbones already posted it.

Thanks, too, Brother Chette!

:lol: Speculating? We have Moses, Elijah, Zerubbable, Enoch, etc., that fit the bill as the witnesses. Previously, as Moses and Elijah were named on the mount of Transfiguration, I thought, as you, that they were the "two" witnesses. However, I now understand them to be TYPES for the witnesses. Those that overcome, as they did, will be with Jesus. The witnesses are those that witness for Him now and at the end of this age.


I agree.....allow the Scriptures to answer.....

Ruth 4:11 And all the People that were in the gate, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses......

Isaiah 43:10-12 Ye are My witnesses." saith the LORD, :"and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no GOD formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, that I am GOD.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a GOD beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:41-43 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He Which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of sins."

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Note that Whirlwind asserts his superior knowledge to you.

“I thought, as you,………………… However, I now understand”.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer” then produces verses that have no relevance to the topic at hand.

He tells us to “allow the Scriptures to answer”, but denies the very words of Scripture.

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

He then throws in smiley faces because he thinks its funny to mock the Word of God. I mentioned a while back about dealing with a young man who had gotten off into the "serpent seed" teaching. Whirlwind sounds just like him.

If I have done something to offend you then I apologize. However....I don't know what has caused you to be so defensive. :confused: I agreed to "let the Scriptures answer" as that was what the original poster suggested...and it is always the best policy. I did just that...with relevant verses if one is willing to see the relevance. Not all will. :(

Please notice that there is an AND between the olive trees and candlesticks. That alone tells us there are not two. ;)

Quote:

5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

:) :D If smiley faces "mock the Word of God" may I ask why they are available on a Christian website? :confused: If this is how you "deal" with a child of God I must wonder how you "love" your enemy.

The two olive trees and two candlesticks refer to the same two people. How do I know?

Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It plainly says the TWO witnesses are the TWO olive trees, AND the TWO candlesticks. Later on they are referred to as the TWO prophets.

Revelation 11
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This is how I deal with those who reject the plain words of the KJV.

Yes it does plainly say that the two witnesses are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks...they are all the "two prophets." They are also referred to as the "two anointed ones." They are two groups. They are the great cloud of witnesses.


11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Re: "The Two Witnesses"
 

Aloha brother Chette,

For what it's worth consider and compare:


Please consider:
The Bible states: The Lord "will have ALL MEN {ALL = "Inclusive"} to be saved" - But are "ALL MEN" {ALL = "Inclusive"} going "to be saved"? And Do ALL MEN "come unto the knowledge of the truth"?Are the "all men" in the Scripture verse above "inclusive" of ALL MEN that were alive on the earth at this time? Of course not. The word "ALL" in the Bible can be speaking "in general" (and NOT be "all inclusive") or it can be "all inclusive" as in:Obviously - the "meaning" is determined by the context.

The Scriptures state: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" The Scriptures did NOT "SAY": that "all men" MUST DIE; and they do NOT say: that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. The Scriptures state: "it is appointed" - Hebrews 9:27 is a general statement of fact - there have been EXCEPTIONS - Enoch & Elijah foremost, PLUS all those people who were raised from the dead in both the Old Testament and the New Testament (who died again - a second time) - the Bible has recorded EXCEPTIONS to the "general rule", of that none of us can deny. So what do we do?

Now we know and believe that there are NO errors or contradictions in the Bible, so then when we come to a verse such as Hebrews 9:27 we must search the Scriptures and seek the mind of Christ in this matter in order to determine "what is truth".

The "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people (Enoch & Elijah) who NEVER DIED. That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE! {Because there have been "EXCEPTIONS"}

And the "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people who died, (both in the Old & New Testaments) and who were raised from the dead, and who DIED AGAIN, i.e. A SECOND TIME! That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. {Because again, there have been "EXCEPTIONS"}

This being the case, we are faced with the fact that either there are contradictions in the Holy Bible (which I do not accept or believe), or: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" is a "general rule" and does NOT "MEAN" (what many make it "mean") that "all men" MUST DIE; or that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE.

Now on to the "two witnesses". The Tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble". [Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.] That being the case - then the Tribulation is peculiarly Jewish, having to do with God calling His people (the nation of Israel) back to Him.

Would God use a "Gentile" to call His people? I doubt it! No, whoever the "two witnesses" are, they are definitely going to be "HEBREWS" - that's how God dealt with the Israelites all throughout the Old Testament; throughout the Lord's earthly ministry (the Four Gospels); and throughout the Book of Acts.

God has always used Hebrews (Prophets or Apostles) to deal with His Hebrew children, and I don't believe that He is going to change the "pattern" in the Tribulation. And knowing how stubborn and self-righteous the Jews are - do you really think that they will listen to some Gentile? I doubt it.

I believe that brother Tony and brother Sammy and some of the other brethren are correct. I believe that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah. Neither one of them possess a "glorified" body yet, and so both of them would still be subject to DEATH!

Enoch is a "type" of the "believer" (in the church age) who will NEVER DIE. Moses is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer - in the Tribulation) who will die in the Tribulation, and who will be "raised" (without a "glorified" body) to go into the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die AGAIN in it. And Elijah is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer -in the Tribulation) who will live through it and be caught out near the end, who will return for the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die in it.

These are doctrines and beliefs that many of us hold, but certainly are NOT "Fellowship" breakers. I will not argue or debate over this issue, because there is too much speculation involved and not enough Scripture to make this one of the Major doctrines. This is a personal "conviction" that I hold, but I do not "insist" that you or anyone else MUST believe as I do in this matter.

As brother Tony would say - "Grace and peace" brother. :)

George,

I agree all men do not have to die. And I know all men don't die physically. as I stated we are already dead in Christ which fulfills that for us. though some of us may die before the rapture.

Now, while we have a clear scriptures that Elijah would come in the last days to prepare the ways for the Lord and Jesus said that it was John who was Elijah. and Mal 4:5 tells us Elijah's duty was to turn the hearts of the father to the children. it says nowhere there that Elijah would call down fire upon Jerusalem or do signs and wonders. And in all that the two witnesses do in Revelation no one is believing or fathers turning to their children that is indicated.

the one scripture Sammy used from Mal4:4 did not say anything about Moses coming in the last days as he said it did. It was speaking about remembering the law of Moses.

So where is the scriptures does is speak of Moses coming in the last days?

Now I think I may have been wrong in saying Moses and Ejiah did not have glorified bodies. I found these scriptures in Luke 9:30,31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. that say both Moses and Elijah appeared in Glory. that would make them glorified would it not? What comes after the colon is added details concerning those before the colon who were and glory and spake, if I remember my English grammar correctly. but then again it says only that they appeared in glory not that they were glorified.

Anyway like I said my mind is not made up.

Brother Chette,
I may have wrongly said Moses "returning", but I also said that Moses and Elijah are only two people mentioned in the context of Malachi's prophecy, and therefore "associated" with the Second Coming.
Brother George has some good points, and a good question would be: "Will the Jews ever listen to Enoch?"
I'm sure they would certainly listen to Moses.
Elijah, of course, will return.

Re: "The Two Witnesses"
 

Aloha brother Chette,

It's a real pleasure discussing this issue with you (a pleasant change).

IF Moses and Elijah have "glorified" bodies like the kind of "glorified" bodies that we are going to receive at the "translation" of the body of Christ they will NOT be able to die; and so they could NOT be the "two witnesses".
Now I don't profess to understand a whole lot about our "glorified" bodies, but there are some things that we can know for sure:

When the Lord Jesus Christ "appears" - "we shall all be changed"; we all are going to "be raised in incorruption"; we all are going to "put on incorruption"; as we all "have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"; and we all "must put on immortality". In other words - "we shall be like Him"! :amen:And just as the Lord Jesus Christ can NO LONGER DIE - we will no longer be subject to DEATH!

The Scriptures do not state that Moses and Elijah had "glorified" bodies when they met with the Lord Jesus Christ on the mount of "transfiguration". But there seems to be near unanimity that Elijah will be one of the "two witnesses", if that is the case (as I believe), then Elijah CAN NOT have a "glorified" body (such as the one that we are going to receive), because if he does, he is "immortal" and will not be able to die.

So - if it is possible that the one "witness" is Elijah, I see nothing that could "prevent" the second "witness" from being Moses. Whatever kind of "BODIES" they now possess, it seems pretty clear that they both "possess" the "SAME" kind of body.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Brother Chette and Brother George,
I may be alone in this way of thinking; but Moses and Elijah not having glorified bodies in the Tribulation period would pose no problem if we accept (as far as I am concerned) the following:

1. Only the members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ, will be resurrected and raptured.
2. The Old Testament saints, as well as the Twelve, will have their "FIRST RESURRECTION" in Revelation 20 (verses 4-6, "THIS IS the first resurrection").

So you agree the witnesses are Moses and Elijah?

Grace and peace

Tony

George and Sammy,

well Jesus had a glorified body too in Luke's version of the Transfiguration. but that glory was short lived as it well could be for Elijah and Moses. Appeared in glory could be a place not just a state of being.

Interesting to note In Luke 3 in the genealogy of Jesus Enoch is mentioned also in Jude and in Hebrews. So these scripture is directly linking the Hebrew peoples to Enoch and Seth and then to Adam.

An interesting side note is that only the Jewish people can follow their genealogy back to Adam. Not one Gentile can follow his back to Jephath or Ham to Adam.

I am assuming here but the importance of Enoch to list him in genealogy of Christ, to mention him in the Hall of faith in Hebrews, and to list him in the Bible as a Prophet in Jude shows that God may consider him an important Character in the future as well of at present.

I have always been taught it was Moses and Elijah. the Scriptures that God would send a prophet like Moses was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and that Elijah would pave the way of the Lord fulfilled in John the Baptist and verified by Jesus that he was indeed Elijah. doesn't mean they wont be but it also doesn't mean they will either.

God could use two totally different people and we could all be proven wrong. because God can use any Jew to be a witness if he is serving the Lord by faith.

I had thought that because in the Tribulation God is dealing with Israel mainly but he is also dealing with the Gentile Nations. who will also be afflicted by the plagues of the two witnesses. So I figured it wouldn't be to far fetched for God to use one Gentile witness (who is considered in line with the Lord-Enoch) and one Jewish witness this way the tribulation witness for what they are is witnessed to the whole world not just the Jews. the whole world is in the same boat Jew or Gentile when it comes to the Seven year Day of the LORD's wrath.

but that is just my idea not that it is correct

I appreciate you comments brother. You can't read the Bible for people Craig, and one thing I've learned over the mists of time is that the Jews are not the only people who are stubborn and stiffnecked.

Here is what amazes me:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

What is the significance of the "and" I highlighted? No one seems to argue that Elijah is the first Witness:

1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

I'm not going to post 5 chapters from Exodus, look in Rev. 11:6 "and" we see that we are given twice the evidence that Moses is the Second Witness yet most people bury their head in the sand, all that down there is the "Gestalt" method of "interpretation" that was taught by that crazy TV evangelist Gene Scott back in the 80s. "Consider all alternatives". Yeah, Charley Manson made good use of Revelation, let's ask him.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Tbones,

We know it describes similar miraculous events of turning water to blood but it still doesn't prove it is Moses. and it does not say what plagues they will smite the earth with. are you say it will be frogs and flies, lice and boils. and even if it is all of them. Rev11:6 does not prove that it is Moses. there are seven plagues poured out on the earth and they could be using those plagues to inflict upon the earth.

But remember Moses didn't do these things GOD DID through him. Ex 3:20 God Speaking, And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go. God can use anyone he chooses to perform those same plagues. It doesn't prove it is Moses.

The only reason people say it is Elijah is because they don't believe what Jesus Said that Elijah had come in the person of John. And because it says in Rev11:6 that the witness would stop the rain. It doesn't prove it is Elijah any more Rev11:6 proves it is Moses. just because the rains stop and water turns to blood and plagues doesn't prove it is either of these men. Because it is God doing it through the two not who the two men are.

I don't beleive it will be Elijah because the rains are stopped. I believe it was Elijah because he did not see death Just as I feel it will be Enoch.

But as George pointed out it doesn't mean that all men have to die once or at all. I do know this, I died in Christ and that is all that really matters.

But you constant putting down of others as "putting their heads in the sand. . . ", and saying they aren't studying scriptures out to see it your way is getting a little tiresome. I will not cut and paste all your jabs of your intellectual superiority and the putting down of others. As reading them once is enough. you are beginning to sound like a newly graduated College student who is out to tell everyone what it is or is not without regards for anyone's feeling. You are showing signs of disrespect which you seemed to be very respectful early on in your posts but lately I don't know what happened to you. I don't think there is any need of it and you should stop it before I loose what little respect I have left for you.

So I give you a challenge. Just one clear scripture is all i need that says without any adding to it or allogorizing, or spiritualizing that Moses will return in the LAST DAYS.

And these two do not count seeing they are speaking of Jesus Christ and were fulfilled completely in him.
De 18:15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
De 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Yes. Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets. Together, the law and Word are the two witnesses to the world. Who delivers His law and His Word? The many witnesses and they are the olive trees and the candlesticks. They are His elect...they are those of.....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Re: "The Two Witnesses"
 

Aloha brother Sammy,

I'm with you 100%. :amen: If I said something to mislead you - I apologize. :)

My point in my Post #52 was simply IF Moses & Elijah have "glorified" bodies, they couldn't possibly be the "two witnesses" (since it would be impossible for them to die); but since the Scriptures do NOT SAY they have "glorified" bodies, then there is nothing preventing them from being the "two witnesses".

I believe between what brother Tony, CKG, peopleoftheway, yourself, and myself (the old curmudgeon), that we have presented a fairly solid Scriptural "case" for the "two witnesses" as being Moses & Elijah. (We can safely discard "whirlwinds" disjointed ramblings as being just that.)

As I have said before - I will not argue or debate over this issue and I refuse to belabor the point or make a "big deal" over it. :)

Brother Chette has been honest and above board about his not "being sure", and I for one am not going to try to REPLACE the Holy Spirit in trying to give brother Chette discernment and understanding in this matter.

I see my responsibility as putting out the Scriptures and instruction in facts about the Bible. It's the Holy Spirit's job to teach spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom! I can "point things out", but the Holy Spirit is the One Who witnesses to the "truth" and convinces us of the veracity of spiritual issues through the study of His Holy words.

I really like that, Brother Chette. And I also delight, glory, and rejoice in the fact that "...a bright cloud [at the Mount of Transfiguration] overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." When they lifted their eyes, Moses (the Law) and Elias (the prophets) were gone "And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only."

I too died in Christ, and yes, HE is all that really matters. "No man save Jesus only!"

Whirlwind,

"The great city" has to be physical Jerusalem in this passage.

It is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem, in our Lord's own words.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


The context of the passage shows the great city is Jerusalem.

The temple of God will be in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Jerusalem is the holy city and is where the anti-christ's throne will be.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

That is a difficult verse for me to understand. There are prophets that have perished out of the city of Jerusalem so it cannot be the literal city being written of. Is it the spiritual Jerusalem, believers? There is more being said in that verse than I see.

Yes....but what does the angel measure?

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Jerusalem is the HOLY CITY but not the great city. Only once was it refererred to as the great city and that was an error.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

The texts omit "great" and is written as....the holy city Jerusalem. And, that city is us....believers, not a literal city.



Our Lord was crucified just outside the gates of Jerusalem but the point is the great city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. That was what/where He was crucified. Looking at it in a spiritual way as it is spiritually called, Sodom represents wickedness while Egypt represents worldly lusts. He died for our sins, for our wickedness and lusts. He was crucified in the great city of the world....Satan's realm. And, that is where the witnesses are.

You're one "spiritual" guy, whirlwind.

Moses not only represents the Law but he is also a prophet. Both Moses and the LORD agree that Moses was a Prophet Duet 18:15, 18. so representing the Law and being a prophet is no proof that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses.

the Only claimed sound biblical proof text are verses that show similar acts of signs and Miracles the LORD will do during the great tribulation. Neither man is mentioned by name. Elijah is said to come to pave the way for the Lord and that was done in John the Baptist and Jesus Clarified that point. But many do not, as Jesus said want "to receive it". Matt 11:7 A prophet like unto Moses came in the person of Jesus.

Now Why is it everyone speculates that these two witnesses will be or must be Elijah and Moses? only because of the no rain, water to blood and plagues? that is no proof in and of itself.

Many make Mal4:4 a two part prophecy but it need not be. for John the Baptist did indeed turn the hearts of the Fathers to their children and the Lord came without wrath. It is clear that the visitation of the Lord was two part but only after the crucifixion. but because of that we don't need to make Mal 4:4 two part just because the Lord's visitation is two part.

So any clear scriptures that can show that Elijah and Moses will indeed be the two witnesses then we can all agree. other wise the Lord is able to prepare to unknowns Like John the Baptist. who Jesus said was Elijah to come.

Now I am saying this not to say I am right but we have a tendency to try and put things in boxes and the Miracles, signs and wonder of Rev11:6 is not proof that it is Elijah and Moses. Most like me learned it from Scholars.

Can some one post the OT reference addresses to the Prophecies of Elijah and Moses coming in the last days.

I am open to what ever the Lord wants me to know concerning the two witnesses but for some reason he chose not to reveal them.

Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

De 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

You're allegorizing/spiritualizing where none is necessary, the Law and the "Word" cannot be killed. The Word of God jhas already been slain, buried, and resurrected.

Grace and peace WW

Tony

[QUOTE=greenbear;22724]

"The great city" has to be physical Jerusalem in this passage.

It is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem, in our Lord's own words.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.[/UNQUOTE]


How very interesting, sis! I honestly never noticed that particular Scripture before! Thanks for pointing that out!

Jassy

I found out clearly who the these two witnesses are.

it is in cross references to Revelation 11::4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zec 4:3, 14And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. . . Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

All joking aside if I run all the cross references of the powers of the two witness they agree to Moses and Elijah.

but what does make it clear that it is Moses an Elijah is the fact that only these two men ever stood with the Lord in glory. that is supported by Zec 4:3, 14. Luke 9:30, 31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

IN order for them to speak they have to have stood by him just as Rev11:4 says that they stand by the Lord.

Chette, just when I start to think you are being hard-headed about the identity of the two witnesses clearly being Moses and Elijah you come up with verses I've never noticed before (Zec 4:3, 14) that clinch it!

God bless you, brother.

Jennifer

yeah Greenbear, not even Tbones saw that one. or at least he never mentioned in in all his list of supporting verse. I ran a complete cross references and found it in Zec. which convinced me more than any others.

Both men Elijah and Moses were both with the Lord by the time Zechariah saw this vision.

:) Seeing the spirit of what is written is a wonderful thing and I thank Him for it.

11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What "rain?" There is the early and the latter rain of His truth. Not all will hear or see the latter rain.

John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

What "waters will turn to blood?"

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

The witnesses, who are His "rod of iron," [Revelation 2:27]have the power to turn people, through their testimony, to blood....

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, 'Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.'

Exodus 7:19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, "Say unto Aaron, 'Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.' "

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the god of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

The witnesses, all of them, have the power to turn those of Egypt (of the world) to blood...to life. The testimony of the Holy Spirit through them gives life to others (the vessels of wood and stone). Then they will be passed over when His wrath pours on the wicked at the end of Satan's tribulation.



There are many times our physical eyes must close so our spiritual eyes can see what is written.

Grace and peace to you too Tony....:)

Whirlwind, how do you decide which verses to interpret literally and which to interpret figuratively? You must have some kind of system worked out, would you care to share it?

In 2 Cor 3:6 Paul is speaking specifically of the new testament which is Paul's gospel of grace. The letter is the law and the spirit is grace. It does not mean we are free to spiritualize scripture whenever we see fit. Please compare the two verses and you will see the literal meaning more clearly.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I don't decide anything Greenbear...It is either time for me to see the spiritual meaning or not as it is with us all. Some things I see and some I don't. If I'm having a difficult time I ask Him and He usually answers...at times the answer is so strong that it leaves me shaken. At other times it is through the teachings of another person or I just suddenly understand, suddenly see what is written....truly see.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it. (26) But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What He "said unto" us is in His Word. The Holy Spirit opens understanding, He teaches us....all things when it is our time to learn those things. It isn't that I decide to interpret anything.

What would you do if you felt that the Holy Spirit showed you that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh? Would you believe the spirit? Or would you believe the literal words as recorded in the bible? Every person must determine how to interpret a verse. It is a cop out to say that you don't decide how to interpret anything. You decide to listen to a spirit and decide what to believe based upon how you feel about the revelation. Or you decide to believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God (1 Jo 4:1). How do we try the spirits? With the word of God. Are you immune to being deceived, whirlwind?

There must be a standard. The bible is that standard. It means what it says. It is to be taken literally unless otherwise indicated within the text itself.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

"What saith the scripture?" is the question, not "What saith my imagination".

What saith the Scripture is quite true....and Scripture sayeth more than is written....as written. :) It is the same Word and yet to some it is milk while to others it is meat.

Matthew 24:45-46 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

He decides when each of us are ready for a particular understanding. I'm sure you have noticed how you can read a verse and then a week or so later read it again and suddenly...you see the same words and yet you see a new meaning.

Please notice that I use Scripture to explain. If I may ask...what have I written you feel is of my imagination or is from the wrong spirit?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. Are you are saying that what is written in the bible is in code; the plain meaning is not the real meaning but the spirit has to reveal the hidden meaning? Or are you saying that the scripture means the thing it plainly states but also means something else at the same time?


How can I understand the scriptures you quote if God has not seen fit to also give to me the hidden meaning of those scriptures?


Whirlwind, I am not accusing you of anything. I asked you a question. You still haven't answered the question. I'll repeat the question and hope you will agree to answer it.


My question from post# 77:

When I first began to study I was taught that Scripture can have three meanings but they will never conflict. No, I don't think it is written in code. The plain meaning is the letter, or the milk of the Word and as such is filling and wholesome. But, as quoted previously, when we are ready the Spirit feeds us meat, deeper understanding. The Words don't change but our understanding of those same words do. So, I would say that I agree with your second question...the scripture means the thing it plainly states but also means something else at the same time," but it will not conflict with the original thought...it is just a deeper understanding.


The same way we all do. We learn from each other for He opens things to each of us at different times on different subjects. If it is time for us to understand...we will. If not...we won't. We just have to be open to Him speaking to us through others as well as to us directly through His Word. For this reason the following verses are among my favorites as I believe it applies to us, members of forums such as this:

Malachi 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name. And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

I didn't feel you were accusing me Greenbear. :) I just wondered if I had written something you felt wasn't of the right spirit. I thought I did answer your question but it was in a round-about way. Sorry.

To answer your question :D, I can't imagine that happening. To be told Jesus didn't come in the flesh is in opposition to the Word. As He is the Word and He tells us that, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me)," everything must be IN THE BOOK.

But, I understand what you are saying. A dear friend has suddenly fallen into the preterist camp. He quotes verses that he sees as proving it where I see the exact opposite. It is the same with rapture believers. Some believe it is written while others, of which I am one....see the doctrine of a rapture before the tribulation as unbiblical.