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chette777 02-07-2008 09:04 PM

Spirit Filled to the Extreme in the Emergent Church
 
My previous post on Faith Alone is not a baptist only a discussion.

my point is I feel that we are the reason the charismatics have gotten so far off balanced with scripture si because we are to busy focusing on the wrong area in there lives. it is not about "don't do this" but rather to live a life of Christ in the Holy Ghost. a spirit filled person is a spiritual person and will understand. thos ein the flesh are carnal and will not understand.

I want to quote Lewis sperry Chafer in HIs Book "he who is spiritual"

"The teaching manifestation of the Spirit in the believer is described by Christ in John 16:12-15: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of [from] himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine and shall show it unto you."
Here is a promise that the child of God may enter the highest realm of knowable truth as revealed in the Word of God. "All things that the Father hath" are included in the things of Christ and "things to come," and these form the boundless field into which the believer may be led by the divine Teacher. This storehouse of divine reality will no doubt engage our minds and hearts for ever; but Christians may be even now entering and progressing in these realms of truth and grace. "Now we have received ... the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (First Corinthians 2:12). "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him" (First John 2:27).
Beyond all the range of human knowledge there are things "which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man; ... but God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit." However, such truth is revealed by the Spirit only to spiritual Christians. To some who were truly saved the Apostle wrote: "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (First Corinthians 3:1, 2). This is a sad disclosure of the state of some believers. Though born again and possessing the Spirit, their carnality of life precludes them from understanding, or progressing in, the "deep things of God." Some, regardless of educational qualifications, go to the Scriptures of Truth as "those that find great spoil." His Word, to them, is "sweeter also than honey and the honey comb." To others, regardless of educational qualifications, there is no discovery and revelation of Truth. The Bible is read by these as a duty, if read at all. This is a tragedy in the realm of infinite issues. It is not alone the question of personal pleasure and profit in the marvels of divine Truth: it involves the realities of knowledge, or ignorance; obedience, or disobedience for want of understanding; power, or weakness; helpfulness, or hurtfulness in the life and testimony of the one who, because of the indwelling Spirit, might be coming to know and to impart to others something of the boundless Truth of God. No amount of human education can correct this defect. The root trouble is carnality, and when this is cured, the "eyes of the heart" will be enlightened, and the inflow of sanctifying Truth will be continuous and unbroken. "He that is spiritual discerneth all things."
Christian growth and the deeper knowledge of the Truth are to be distinguished from spirituality. It is possible to be filled with the Spirit when immature in growth, experience and understanding. Christian growth is largely conditioned on the study of the Word, prayer, and service; while spirituality does not wait on these things, but is conditioned upon immediate adjustments to the Spirit. Since the Spirit is always our Teacher, it is imperative that we always remain teachable. We should be willing humbly to hear His voice through any and every instrument."

it is because these Christians in the Emergent Church Movement are carnal and carnality always will lead to extremes of which the Charismatics have always been. when they are Carnal they are not taught of the Spirit to know spiritual things and truths of God wonderful Grace

Concerning a spirit filled christian I quote fromt eh same author, "a spiritual Christian is a Spirit-filled Christian in whom the unhindered Spirit is manifesting Christ by producing a true Christian character, which is the "fruit of the Spirit"; by energizing true Christian service through the exercise of a "gift of the Spirit"; by personal instruction in the Word of God; by inspiring true praise and thanksgiving; by leading the believer in an unbroken "walk in the Spirit"; by actualizing into celestial heart-ecstasy that which has been taken by faith concerning the positions and possessions in Christ; and by inclining, illuminating and empowering the believer in the prayer of intercession.
True spirituality is a seven-fold manifestation of the Spirit in and through the one whom He fills. It is a divine output of the life, rather than a mere cessation of things which are called "worldly." True spirituality does not consist in what one does not do, it is rather what one does. It is not suppression: it is expression. It is not holding in self: it is living out Christ. The unregenerate would not be saved if he should cease sinning: he would not be born of God. The Christian would not be spiritual if he should abstain from worldliness: he would possess none of the manifestations of the Spirit.
The world and "worldly" Christians turn to so-called "worldly" things because they discover in them an anesthetic to deaden the pain of an empty heart and life. The anesthetic, which is often quite innocent in itself, is not so serious a matter as the empty heart and life. Little is gained toward true spirituality when would-be soul doctors have succeeded in persuading the afflicted to get on without the anesthetic. if these instructors do not present the reality of consolation and filling for heart and life which God has provided, the condition will not be improved. How misleading is the theory that to be spiritual one must abandon play, diversion and helpful amusement! Such a conception of spirituality is born of a morbid human conscience. It is foreign to the Word of God. It is a device of Satan to make the blessings of God seem abhorrent to young people who are overflowing with physical life and energy. It is to be regretted that there are those who in blindness are so emphasizing the negatives of the Truth that the impression is created that spirituality is opposed to joy, liberty and naturalness of expression in thought and life in the Spirit. Spirituality is not a pious pose. It is not a "Thou shall not": it is "Thou shalt." It flings open the doors into the eternal blessedness, energies and resources of God. It is a serious thing to remove the element of relaxation and play from any life. We cannot be normal physically, mentally or spiritually if we neglect this vital factor in human life. God has provided that our joy shall be full.
It is also to be noted that one of the characteristics of true spirituality is that it supersedes lesser desires and issues. The Biblical, as well as practical, cure for "worldliness" among Christians is so to fill the heart and life with the eternal blessings of God that there will be a joyous preoccupation and absent-mindedness to unspiritual things. A dead leaf that may have clung to the twig through the external raging storms of Winter, will silently fall to the ground when the new flow of sap from within has begun in the Spring. The leaf falls because there is a new manifestation of life pressing from within outward. A dead leaf cannot remain where a new bud is springing, nor can worldliness remain where the blessings of the Spirit are flowing. We are not called upon to preach against "dead leaves." We have a message of the imperishable Spring. It is of the outflow of the limitless life of God. When by the Spirit ye are walking ye cannot do the things that ye otherwise would.
It is the Spirit's work to produce in the believer a life which is heavenly in character. This life is inimitable; yet it is commonly supposed that spirituality consists in struggling to observe a particular set of rules, or the imitation of a heavenly ideal. Spirituality is not gained by struggling: it is to be claimed. It is not imitation of a heavenly ideal: it is the impartation of the divine power which alone can realize the ideal. "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." The written Word reveals the character of the spiritual life and exhorts to its fulfillment; but it as faithfully reveals that the life can be lived only by the in-wrought power of God. We are to "serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." There is little blessing for any Christian until he abandons the principle of living by rules and learns to walk by the Spirit in God-ordained liberty and in fresh and unbroken fellowship with his Lord. The divine precepts will then be kept by the power of God."

When we focus on externals instead of filling the heart and soul with the wonderful grace God has given us in Christ. we create a system that will drive people insane in struggleing to amintain a Supposed Christian Lifestyle that really goes against what God wants for us as hi children.

anyone who would like a zip copy of Lewsis sperry chafersbooks send me an email I will be glad to send them to you. may I recomend "Grace" and then "He that is Spiritual" these books though written a long time ago are relevent for today. they will help transform your life and Ministries when kept in balance.

Chette

Biblestudent 03-01-2008 05:32 AM

Many Christians seem to ask today, "Just what exactly is 'worldly'? What do you means by the word 'worldly'?"

Pastor Mikie 03-01-2008 09:54 AM

Charismatics take a lot of heat just because they are charismatics (Pentecostals). That's not right. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

jerry 03-01-2008 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 1134)
Charismatics take a lot of heat just because they are charismatics (Pentecostals). That's not right. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Yes, but there is much in charismatic theology and practice that does not line up with the Word of God. You can't skip the doctrine that teaches us how to conduct ourselves, and then just debate other actions - if our primary foundation is off, that will affect all of our actions.

It isn't just the emergent church that has gone off course - many mainstream denominations have as well.

Pastor Mikie 03-01-2008 05:45 PM

Jerry, that is just your opinion. I (as a Pentecostal) can defend my "theology" and "practice" using the Scriptures. Many of "us" can. As a matter of fact, the AV1611 defends it quite well. Acts 19 is a perfect example concerning our doctrine of being Baptized in the Holy Ghost subsequent to salvation. The Ephesians were asked:

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


The word "since" in newer versions is replaced with "when" which is more in keeping with your doctrinal position.

I'm quite able to defend my "charismatic" beliefs with plenty of Scripture to back it up (I prefer Pentecostal since Charismatic tends to refer to non-traditional Pentecostal churches). The difference isn't in what the Bible says, it's what we think it means. I believe mine is the correct interpretation, and you believe yours is.

Many Biblical doctrines are that way. Where we should question someone's faith is in the fundamental doctrines (essential doctrines). The "hot-spots" doctrinally are tongues, eternal security, divorce & remarriage, the rapture, Bible prophecy: which are not essential doctrines for salvation.

I'm not saying you can't disagree. Please state your position and offer your reasons why. To say "there is much in charismatic theology and practice that does not line up with the Word of God" is only your opinion. I don't think your position lines up with the Word of God. But I absolutely will not say you aren't a Christian; you belong to a cult; or other such rhetoric.

I believe the United Pentecostal Church and a good-many Apostolic Churches are cultish because they deny the doctrine of the Trinity and the Apostolic Churches I'm speaking of believe in baptismal regeneration. That's cause for concern since that is going against the essential (fundamental) doctrines of Christianity.

Biblestudent 03-01-2008 06:33 PM

1. Tongues are a SIGN to the unbelieving Jew, not to the church, and not even to the Gentile ("Greeks").
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
2. There are rules to speaking in tongues that should be followed by anyone who practices it:
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1) Only two to three people are allowed to speak in tongues.
2) It should be "by course" and not simultaneous.
3) There should be an interpreter; no interpreter, keep silence.
4) No woman is allowed to speak in tongues.

3. Tongues, after it served its purpose, CEASED.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Tongues were to validate to the Jews (who rejected the gospel of the kingdom preached by the apostles of the circumcision) the gospel of grace preached by the Apostle of the Gentiles. That the early church spoke in tongues was for the purpose of reaching the "remnant" of the Jews that they might be saved.
Now that we have the completed revelation - the Holy Bible ("that which is perfect is come"), special Jewish signs and gifts of prophecies now fail, tongues have CEASED, knowledge have vanished.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

jerry 03-01-2008 10:05 PM

Since Acts 19, every single believer throughout history has received the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Pastor Mikie 03-02-2008 09:18 AM

Jerry, I desagree. Your proof text teaches that the Holy Ghost baptizes you into the body of Christ.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

The above verse says Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Ist Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Ghost is the baptizer. In Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33 and Acts 1:5 Jesus is the baptizer.

But if you don't want to believe that Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, fortunately, it isn't essential for salvation. It is a gift (Acts 2:38).

Pastor Mikie 03-02-2008 09:24 AM

On 1st Corinthians 13:8 - 10, the subject is "charity", and it never fails. Verse 10's "that which is perfect" isn't identified as anything in particular. The point is that the perfect will always replace the not-perfect. In this case, the completed will replace the not completed. Trying to use these verses to show tongues isn't for today is very weak in my opinion.

Using the "signs of an apostle" argument is a much stronger case to prove your position. But, chapters 12 and 14 has an apostle teaching the proper use of these "sign gifts".

jerry 03-02-2008 11:16 AM

Yup, and NO ONE today is using the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation according to how 1 Corinthians 14 instructs.

Pastor Mikie 03-02-2008 01:57 PM

Quote: Jerry Yup, and NO ONE today is using the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation according to how 1 Corinthians 14 instructs.

And you know this how?

jerry 03-02-2008 02:21 PM

By a simple comparison between their doctrine and practices on this issue with the Bible.

No women speaking in tongues or prophesying - yet the tongues movement is filled with women preachers and tongues-speakers.

Only two or three speaking in one meeting, and taking turns, plus an interpretor or else they must be silent. Yet, I have seen whole churches doing this at one, no interpretor.

The teaching that all should speak in tongues - when the Bible indicates that God did NOT give the gift to all. Plus, the teaching that it is the evidence of being saved and/or being filled with the Spirit of God - which does not line up with the Bible.

The Bible also teaches it is the least of the gifts - yet charismatics and pentecostals want to make it the greatest.

The gifts were given to to edify the church - yet many teach that you can have a private prayer tongue language (which the Bible does not teach anywhere).

As has already been pointed out, tongues were a sign to lost Jews - yet we see many churches filled with Gentiles only who practice this.

sting of truth 03-02-2008 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 1208)
By a simple comparison between their doctrine and practices on this issue with the Bible.

No women speaking in tongues or prophesying - yet the tongues movement is filled with women preachers and tongues-speakers.

Only two or three speaking in one meeting, and taking turns, plus an interpretor or else they must be silent. Yet, I have seen whole churches doing this at one, no interpretor.

The teaching that all should speak in tongues - when the Bible indicates that God did NOT give the gift to all. Plus, the teaching that it is the evidence of being saved and/or being filled with the Spirit of God - which does not line up with the Bible.

The Bible also teaches it is the least of the gifts - yet charismatics and pentecostals want to make it the greatest.

The gifts were given to to edify the church - yet many teach that you can have a private prayer tongue language (which the Bible does not teach anywhere).

As has already been pointed out, tongues were a sign to lost Jews - yet we see many churches filled with Gentiles only who practice this.

but yet there is not a single verse in the bible that says women, woman, and tongues in the same verse. so obviously just liek always you are either twisting the bibleto make it say what you want it to, or you just plain out don't know what you're talking about.. and if you agree that ALL the disciples spoke in tongues on the day of pentecost then you must admit that women did to, because women were in the upper room. but then you need to clarify do you mean the gift of tongues, OR the being filled with the Holy Spirit. i knwo you don't believe a believer can be filled with the Holy Spirit but i believe God is unchanging, just a variance of you and the bible on that part

Pastor Mikie 03-02-2008 04:06 PM

My exception to your statement is because you said "No One" today...

Unless you are omnipresent or omniscient, you can't make that claim. The instructions from Paul were to gentiles. It can be assumed there were abuses then, and there are abuses now. But that doesn't negate the authenticity of the gifts.

Paul said in 1st Corintians 14:14 that he prayed with the spirit, sense small "s", his spirit. And he said his understanding was unfruitful. I take this to mean he must have spoke in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

He didn't say they didn't speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

He wanted them to speak in tongues, and set down the guidelines.

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

He didn't want tongues to be forbidden, just kept under control.

There's plenty of Scripture supporting tongues and its proper use. If you don't want to, then don't.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Like I believe was stated in another posting, ignorant isn't an insult. Just states a gap in knowledge. Wilfully ignorant is another matter.

Biblestudent 03-03-2008 04:19 AM

1 Corinthians is an epistle written when Paul was reaching the remnant of JEWS during the TRANSITION PERIOD in the book of Acts (a transition from LAW to GRACE). Tongues were a sign for the Jews. It WAS needful to have signs to confirm the word for them to believe. Now in this GRACE PERIOD, tongues have ceased; for God has stopped his dealings with the Jews (Rom. 9-11) and He's dealing now with the Body of Christ where there is no Jews, nor Gentiles.

I don't have the gift of tongues. Do I have to speak in tongues? Am I false preacher since I have no signs to "confirm the word" (Mark 16)?

Tongues are languages. If you have the gift of tongues, talk to me in Hiligaynon. I would sure marvel if I hear you speak in my own tongue, wherein I was born.

The guidelines in 1 Corinthians were set for those who spoke in tongues in the church during the early Acts period, and they have now ceased since there is no use for it today. The Jews had an advantage during the Acts period ("Jew first"), but now they don't.

jerry 03-03-2008 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sting of truth (Post 1211)
but yet there is not a single verse in the bible that says women, woman, and tongues in the same verse.

The context of 1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with tongues and propheSying (ie. preaching) - and in that same chapter women are told to keep silent in the churches - that means women are forbidden specifically from speaking in tongues and preaching in the church.

Quote:

i knwo you don't believe a believer can be filled with the Holy Spirit but i believe God is unchanging, just a variance of you and the bible on that part
I said I do not believe in tongues for today - nor that the tongues people are using today are Biblical tongues. I certainly do believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit - as the Bible commands us to be, and shows the early disciples being filled for witnessing and service. You equate being filled with tongues - the Bible does not.

Ephesians 5:18-20 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

It doesn't say speak in tongues, but be filled with the Spirit, which means controlled or influenced by. That will result in praising God, exhorting the brethren, giving thanks to the Lord, etc.

jerry 03-03-2008 08:23 AM

Paul spoke in tongues more than them all. Let's see, he knew Hebrew, spoke and wrote in Greek, and travelled as a missionary - so he knew many language/tongues. And he desired that they also knew more languages to get the Gospel out more.

Still, you haven't dealt with the instructions given in that chapter on how to use those tongues/languages. And some of your statements are based on assumptions - ie. he must have. Since when do we base theology on assumptions?

Pastor Mikie 03-03-2008 09:04 AM

Jerry, good question, I ask the same question to you.

Pastor Mikie 03-03-2008 09:35 AM

Bible student, I think I deal with your questions. If you don't want to speak with tongues, then you don't have to.

Telling me that the gifts I've witnessed personally (that I can support Scripturally) are somehow not real (because your interpretations are based on personal bias), or they are fake or maybe even from the devil (though no one has actually come out and said that yet) is somewhat amuzing and even laughable.

You don't want it, need it or believe it, your choice. Your arguments aren't going to convert many away from something wonderful they've received from the Lord.

I've had this discussion with lots of folks of your persuasion. They all use the same arguments. Out of those, there are some who don't feel threatened by my statements. So, they don't sound hostile or angry (as some here do). They just don't believe as I do.

You aren't going to talk me out of it. It's in the Bible in plain English as far as I'm concerned. You have no solid Biblical proof that the "sign gifts (as you call them)" have been taken away. What you appear to be doing is trying to use history by explaining to me the unique circumstances around the writings themselves. That's doing the same kind of thing "Bible-correctors" do. Or you are trying to identify a general statement used in an illustration of the apostle Paul as something identified when it is not. Maybe you even feel that Paul was being hypothetical in 1st Corianthians 12 & 14. Whatever explaination you give, it requires something other than Scripture to substantiate.

I acknowledge that all of us tend to interpret the Bible based on personal bias. But, I've tried to see your point of view. As a matter of fact, I used to believe as you do. What changed my mind was what happened during a Bible study in 1975 where some JW's were trying to infultrate it. The leader of the study decided the best way to "drive" these people away wasn't by arguing with them, but to begin praying. We all gathered into a circle, held hands and began to pray. I started to speak in tongues. I stopped myself. The JW's were freaked out. I stopped myself because I was taught this kind of thing was from the devil and I didn't want to be of the devil. It happened again. This time I decided it was real, and from the Lord. The JW's disappeared for good.

This caused me to search the Scriptures profusely. I objectively could not see where God ever removed the gifts of the Holy Ghost from the church. You might accuse me of getting my theoloy from experience and not the Scriptures. That's not true. I tested my experience with the Scriptures and found that it was Biblical.

Again, it sounds like some of you just want to be angry about this. Maybe you feel threatened by it. I'm sorry. God has given me something wonderful (and many others). I admit there are loads of abuses out there. There are as many abuses of the gifts of the Spirit as there are abuses of the doctrine salvation. But it doesn't negate what is real.

fundy 03-04-2008 05:34 AM

Using your gift
 
Hi Pastor Mikie,

I havent read through this thread, so you may have already answered these questions;

When speaking in tongues, which language or languages do you speak in and what is it you say? Is it the same thing all the time or do you say different things.

The reason I ask this is that I have spoken to several people who claim this gift, but none of them have ever been able to remember what they said.

I am also interested to know wether or not you can go to say, Chinatown,
(most cities have a Chinatown) and preach to the Gospel to people there in Chinese? Or could you knock on the door of a person who may be of Indian extraction and explain the Gospel to them in Hindi?

I personally believe that the gift of tongues in the Biblical sense has passed away, that you feel differently is fine with me. I am just curious as to how you utilise your ability.

fundy

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 07:10 AM

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.



To answer your questions:
I don't know what languages I'm speaking. I hardly ever speak in tongues publicly. Mostly when I'm praying.

The other questions are answered by the Scriptures I've posted. Fortunately, the gifts are from God, not men. So, since God gave the gift, man can't take them away. So, if you believe tongues aren't for today, that is your right. But I know what I've received from the Lord is real. Tongues has been a very useful tool used by God. And yes, it is entirely possible to meet someone from another foreign country and have the Holy Ghost enable you to speak in that language. It has happened. Even in modern times.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Don't let those who abuse it keep you from something that is quite real.

Biblestudent 03-04-2008 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 1306)
I don't know what languages I'm speaking. I hardly ever speak in tongues publicly. Mostly when I'm praying.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

You speak in tongues when you pray? And you don't understand?
Rule 1. Pray WITH UNDERSTANDING.
Rule 2. SPEAK five words WITH YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
Rule 3. SILENCE is not SPEAKING. Silent praying is NOT speaking in tongues.
Rule 4. Speaking in tongues for the benefit of the listener.
Rule 5. Review all the rules posted before. The bias is in your mind. You even did not address any single verse posted concerning rules for tongues speaking.

Biblestudent 03-04-2008 09:12 AM

Choosing selected passages and ignoring the context of the plain English is the problem.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes
,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Tongues were spoken to and understood by the audience. Peter never spoke to himself and no one did not hear him and no one did not understand him.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

It was not a silent praying. It was heard for it was SPOKEN.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

It was heard. There was no "silent speaking" in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

What divers kinds of tongues did you speak? Cretian, Arabian, Mesopotamian, etc.? What is the interpretation?

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Speaking in tongues is not a choice. It is a gift for a specific purpose. Paul spoke in tongues as a sign of his apostleship and to reach the Jew, for it is a sign to the Jew. [Now, ignore these verses again and call it bias.]
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I do not speak in tongues not because I do not want to. I do not have it.
1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
If you have it, talk to me in Hiligaynon.

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Again, tongues are a SIGN for Israel:
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; ...
29 Men and brethren, ...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,...

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 09:34 AM

In Acts chapter 2:1 - 4 they were in the upper room when they first spoke in tongues and no one but the 120 were present. Since they were praying in the upper room, the tongues was praying in the spirit as the Spirit gave them utterance. Then in verse 5 and on, they were not in the upper room anymore and others heard the Gospel in their own language "wherein they were born".

I never said I ONLY pray in tongues. Like Paul, I pray in the spirit and the understanding also.

Let's face it, you not only do not want to speak in tongues, you don't want me to, either.
Why? It says in 1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues..

Does the fact I believe it is for today and understand the Scriptures the way I do threaten you in some way? I got saved when I repented of my sins and asked Jesus to be Lord of my life in 1973. In 1975, believing as you do, God baptized me in the Holy Ghost (naturally, I searched the Scriptures when this happened so as not to be in error, and found how I was taught was not accurate). Now, a number of Christians think I've become an alien or a wizard or something because I've received this gift.

You keep trying to trip me up and convince me I'm doing something wrong. Each time I have a Biblical answer and you throw the same stuff back at me. That's fine. But I don't think you are hearing me.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 09:42 AM

...If tongues was a sign for Israel (I'm assuming you mean exclusively), how do you explain Acts 10 & 11?

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

These were gentiles.

Biblestudent 03-04-2008 09:47 AM

QUOTE=Pastor Mikie;1269]
You aren't going to talk me out of it. It's in the Bible in plain English as far as I'm concerned. You have no solid Biblical proof that the "sign gifts (as you call them)" have been taken away. ...

This caused me to search the Scriptures profusely. I objectively could not see where God ever removed the gifts of the Holy Ghost from the church. You might accuse me of getting my theoloy from experience and not the Scriptures. That's not true. I tested my experience with the Scriptures and found that it was Biblical.
[/QUOTE]

Solid proofs why "sign gifts" have been taken away after A.D. 96. (1 Cor. 13:10;Rev. 22:18,19).
1. BOTH tongues and healing are "signs" (Mark 16:16-18; 1 Cor. 12:30; 1 Cor. 1:22; 1 Cor. 14:22).
2. Tongues shall cease (1 Cor. 13) and have ceased together with healing after the Acts period. Later in his ministry, Paul no longer can heal (1 Tim. 4:20) and starts giving prescription (1 Tim 5:23).
3. Did Polycarp speak in tongues? Did he heal? Solid evidence please if he did.
4. Did Ireneaus speak in tongues? Did he heal?
5. Did Ignatius speak in tongues? Did he heal?
6. Did Tertullian speak in tongues? Did he heal?
7. Did Chrysostom speak in tongues? Did he heal?
8. Did the Paulicians speak in tongues? Did they heal?
9. Did the Bogomiles speak in tongues? Did they heal?
10. Did the Waldensians speak in tongues? Did they heal?
11. Did the Anabaptists speak in tongues? Did they heal?
12. Did John Wycliff speak in tongues? Did he heal?
13. Did William Tyndale speak in tongues? Did he heal?
14. Did Martin Luther speak in tongues? Did he heal?
15. Did John Calvin speak in tongues?Did he heal?
16. Did Lancelot Andrews speak in tongues? Sure he did! But it was a natural gift and he had to study them. He didn't have it supernaturally. Did he heal?
17. Did Spurgeon speak in tongues? Did he heal?
18. Did George Whitefield speak in tongues? Did he heal?
19. Did Moody speak in tongues? Did he heal?
20. Do you really speak in tongues?
Do you heal? We need you here.

Biblestudent 03-04-2008 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 1322)
...If tongues was a sign for Israel (I'm assuming you mean exclusively), how do you explain Acts 10 & 11?

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

These were gentiles.

The Gentiles spoke in tongues as a sign to Peter (a Jew) and to the JEWS who were with him. In Acts 10-11, God is showing Peter that he is changing his program - from the Law/Kingdom Program where the Jew is first to the Grace/Church Program where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. There is no tongues speaking in a purely Gentile congregation. That's a solid proof.

Biblestudent 03-04-2008 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 1321)
Let's face it, you not only do not want to speak in tongues, you don't want me to, either.
Why? It says in 1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues..

Does the fact I believe it is for today and understand the Scriptures the way I do threaten you in some way? I got saved when I repented of my sins and asked Jesus to be Lord of my life in 1973. In 1975, believing as you do, God baptized me in the Holy Ghost (naturally, I searched the Scriptures when this happened so as not to be in error, and found how I was taught was not accurate).

1. No one is forbidding you to speak in tongues. The problem is you are not following the purpose and guidelines for speaking in tongues, and there is no solid proof either that you have the gift of tongues as the Bible describes it. I repeat some of them:
a. Tongues is to convince an unbelieving Jew.
b. Tongues are an exclusive sign for the Jew. The nation started with signs (Exodus 3) and have always asked for signs since then.
c. No woman is to speak in tongues.
d. Nobody should speak in tongues without an interpreter.
e. Tongues and healing go together, all along with snake handling, poison drinking, and devil casting (Mark 16). If you don't have one, you don't have the other.
f. Tongues shall cease and it have ceased since the gift of healing was withdrawn. (If tongues have not ceased, when will it cease?)
g. Gentiles need no sign.
h. The Church needs no sign. We walk by faith, not by sight. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. "In part" gifts are done away since "that which is perfect" Word of God has come.

2. There is no baptism "in" the Holy Ghost in the Bible.
a. Baptism "with" the Holy Ghost belongs to the gospel of the kingdom - for Israel.
b. Baptism "by" one Spirit "into" the body of Christ belongs to the gospel of the grace of God - for the church.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 12:18 PM

In answer to "Biblestudent":

Solid proofs why "sign gifts" have been taken away after A.D. 96. (1 Cor. 13:10;Rev. 22:18,19). That which is perfect is not identified. The whole passage has to do with the fact complete replaces the partial. Revelation 22:18 & 19 not applicable here. AD96 is pulled out of thin air.
1. BOTH tongues and healing are "signs" (Mark 16:16-18; 1 Cor. 12:30; 1 Cor. 1:22; 1 Cor. 14:22).
So what? That doesn’t show pro or con concerning tongues and healing.
2. Tongues shall cease (1 Cor. 13) and have ceased together with healing after the Acts period. Later in his ministry, Paul no longer can heal (1 Tim. 4:20) and starts giving prescription (1 Tim 5:23).
Acts period not specified in these passages. 2nd Timothy 4:20 making a statement of fact, not saying anything about Paul healing or not healing. It is the Spirit of God who imparts the gifts, not us. Telling Timothy to drink wine for his stomach isn’t Paul giving out prescriptions. 1st Corinthians 13 is the buffer between chapters 12 & 14. Silly argument. That’s about the same thing as saying Ezekiel chapter 1 is teaching UFO’s are real.
3. Did Polycarp speak in tongues? Did he heal? Solid evidence please if he did.
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
4. Did Ireneaus speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
5. Did Ignatius speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
6. Did Tertullian speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
7. Did Chrysostom speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
8. Did the Paulicians speak in tongues? Did they heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
9. Did the Bogomiles speak in tongues? Did they heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
10. Did the Waldensians speak in tongues? Did they heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
11. Did the Anabaptists speak in tongues? Did they heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
12. Did John Wycliff speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
13. Did William Tyndale speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
14. Did Martin Luther speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
15. Did John Calvin speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
16. Did Lancelot Andrews speak in tongues? Sure he did! But it was a natural gift and he had to study them. He didn't have it supernaturally. Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
17. Did Spurgeon speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
18. Did George Whitefield speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
19. Did Moody speak in tongues? Did he heal?
Don’t know – Don’t care for the sake of this discussion. Irrelevant.
20. Do you really speak in tongues? Yes I do.
21. Do you heal? No. But Jesus does. Have been healed of heart trouble. Both my wife and I have been healed by God and both have prayed for people who have been healed by God. Why doesn’t God heal everyone? Don’t know.
22. We need you here. Thank you.

You still need to show Biblically that tongues were taken away. You’ve shown me Scripture that has been interpreted by your personal bias. Someone reading those passages without having an opinion one way or the other wouldn’t come to your conclusions about the matter. Your arguments are superfluous in my opinion.

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 01:28 PM

Saying God doesn't heal today is frightening. That leaves the care of our health to ourselves or physicians. Leaving it to physicians is problematic at best, seeing they are the 3rd leading cause of death in America.

www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm

Debau 03-04-2008 02:19 PM

I Corinthians 12-14 is a discourse on REFUTING tongues. "whether there be tongues, they shall cease"(I cor 13:8). If you are studying the Bible dispensationally, you will understand that these gifts were for the apostles as signs to the Jews, and have ceased with the closing of the canon of scripture, "that which is perfect"(I Cor 13:10).
"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign" (Mat 16:14)
If we have these signs still, what of snake handlers and drinking poison?
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing , it shall not hurt them" (Mark 16:17-18).
Where are the poison drinkers today?
This issue opens up a can o' worms and suggests the canon of scripture is open to change. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, which was ONCE delivered unto the saints. Special revelation(the Bible) is complete and all sufficient(II Pet 1:3). The only sign we have is the sign of the prophet Jonah typified by Christs death, burial, and resurrection as revealed in the scriptures(I Cor 15:3-4). Any other so called revelation is deification of self.

Pastor Mikie 03-04-2008 03:04 PM

You aren't comprehending what I'm saying and don't want to. You are digging up the same old arguments that I've already put holes in. So you go ahead and continue your thread for "Tongue-Haters". All I can do is try to make you understand. Your application of 1st Corithians 13:8-10 is misapplied, your understanding of "signs and wonders" is misapplied, you are making the Scriptures say what you want it to. So I will move on to something else.

Debau 03-04-2008 04:11 PM

Well, what of snake handlers and ingesting poison? There is no 'tongue hating' here. Just a disdain for error. There were pointed out examples of men in the church throughout history of which none spoke in tongues, but Mikie didn't care, not relevant. The closest thing to tongues is visions and such by the patristics which is just occultic mysticism being revived in the Emergent Church movement. I guess just as scripture was lost for 1800 years until it was found in a monastery, so was speaking in tongues until the Azusa revival in 1901.
I wonder what other doctrine of error acccompanies this one. Maybe Replacement Theology? Amillenialism, Preterism, etc...

conwaytim 03-06-2008 03:25 PM

Quote:

Tongues were to validate to the Jews (who rejected the gospel of the kingdom preached by the apostles of the circumcision) the gospel of grace preached by the Apostle of the Gentiles.
Well said! Tongues did cease, along with the other (sign gifts) which were at that time to authenticate the preaching of the apostles, and as well as during Christ's ministry here on earth.
But now we have the completed scripture, and there is no further revelation.
Paul says,
Col. 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
We have all that is needed to be perfect in Christ Jesus!

broswmiller 03-07-2008 02:46 PM

I have seen many pentecostals seek an experience rather than what the Bible really teaches.I believe in tongues some say because I experienced it.Some pentecostal preachers and teachers tell their congregations how to speak in tongues by word or tracts.If its of God the Spirit will get that tongue to flowing but sadly its not that way.

Many cults speak in tongues and it sounds just like some mainline pentecostals speaking .Kenneth copeland was caught praising satan in english between speaking in tongues and yep copeland looks like a demon.

Bro Miller.

broswmiller 03-07-2008 02:48 PM

http://www.cephasministry.com/toronto_unmask.html

Copeland speaketh in tongues praising his master satan.

chette777 03-08-2008 05:44 AM

I dont beleive these gifts have been done away with. the gifts of the Spirit are different than what qwas happening as a sign in Act 2. these gift will be taken up again in the Tribulation. but as for today I have yet to see it working the way it was in is supposed to according to 1Cor12-14.

dispensationally there is a gift of tngues but it has an interpretation. I have heard of very few that have interpreted. most it is nonsence or demonic. for tongues always glorify's the work of God. I have heard of people being convicted of supposed crimes becasue they spoke in a tongue and someone else interpreted it as a confession to rape and murder. That does not jive with Bible use of Tongues.

Plus I have seen and heard Bhudist monks floatinf off teh ground eating hot coals speak in perfect English. who when I spoke to them in the street couldn't understand a word of it nor speek it. they had tongues. also I have seen demon possessed people speak some of the same type of Jiberish I have seen in some Charismatic churches too.

so though I may be open to tongues as a gift to edify the church. it better be according to Biblical standard or I will tell you to shut up in my church.

broswmiller 03-08-2008 11:58 AM

Yes the modern day snake handlers and poision drinkinkers validates its not wise to do this because death has resulted and it has been outlawed but they are still breaking the law and dying.Tongues goes with the snakes and poision drinkers and if snakes and poision are killing deceived folks the tongues experience is also deceptive.

I know several people that were involved in the pentecostal experiences and have backslid worser than any baptist I know some are now in wicca [i.e.withcraft].If someone speaks in a language he or she thinks is of God and it isnt they can open themselves up for all kinds of bondages and deceptions.

God gave me one language and thats english.My final destination is heaven and if speaking in other tongues is not required to get there I dont need it.Amen.

God bless.
Bro Miller.

Biblestudent 03-09-2008 11:45 PM

1 Corinthians 12-14
I believe the gift of tongues has been withdrawn along with the gifts of prophecy (foretelling, not "forth telling"), miracles, and healing. If they have not been withdrawn, where are the prophets that will add to the perfect ("completed") revelation of the Bible? Why do we have hospitals today? Why do missionaries (including the tongue speakers) have to undergo language study?
The gift of tongues is not the "best" gift according to the Apostle Paul. In the zeal of many to covet the "not-the-best" gifts, they lose the gift of COMMON SENSE.:)

Biblestudent 03-09-2008 11:47 PM

1 Cor. 14:22 What are tongues for anyway?
1 Cor. 1:22 Who needs them?
2 Cor. 5:7 We don't.


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