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Lordship Salvation & Matthew 7
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is the favourite verse of most Lordship Salvationists. I have no idea why! This verse totally refutes Lordship salvation. The people there acknowledge Jesus is Lord. They probably spent their life in obedience to the Bible, and being good people, but Jesus said "I never knew you". Why? Because they didn't trust him for salvation. They heard the Lordship gospel and believed they had to maintain salvation by works. The will of God regarding salvation is revealed in John Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. I'm not going to take that chance. I am not going to stand before God and say that I am a "swell guy", and I did a good job of obeying Him. He is the creator of the universe! What could I possibly do to impress God. I tell you what I can do. One thing. Accept His Son. Accepting His Son, and He will love me for eternity! Rejecting, or trying to add anything to His Son's work, and He will hate me for eternity with righteous hatred. Lordship Salvation is a wicked doctrine. I am ashamed I was involved in it. My participation stemmed from the fact that I wanted to win souls, and Ray Comfort's literature seemed quite good in teaching me how to. However, his false gospel reached into my heart, and made me doubt salvation deeply. Thank God I have rejected that and accept Christ as my only all in all. God bless Luke |
These people may have called Jesus "Lord", but it is quite certain they didn't accept Him as their Lord, or live like He was their Lord. Of course, as you have pointed out, that starts with coming to Him His way - ie. receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour, receiving the Gospel.
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You dont appear to understand the concept of grace where there is no boasting period.. eph 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. How in the world can something boast about something they had no choice in the matter ? How can someone created boast ? Could adam boast about being created like he had something to with it..can he say oh I accepted God, thats why he created me from dust ? People who are in christ are created that way by Gods power.. 2 cor 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; man cannot boast about Gods creative Glory.. |
I don't see anyone boasting - just declaring a fact. I trusted Christ for salvation. I was lost until I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour.
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First the best way to sort out all this mess is to first put things in order. Matthew,Luke, and Mark are Kingdom Gospels. this is why you find inthem things like repent forthe zkingdom of Heaven/God is at hand. this puts them in the dispensation under law because Chrst has yet to go to the cross. the teaching of Matthew seven is a Kingdom Doctrine for a yet future dispensation. Called the Kningdom Dispenation which is 1000 year in length. there will be many who come to give the Lord oblations so not to receive the curse of drought and famine if they of the nations don't come.
hence many call me Lord Lord. some God will allow to do signs and wonders but they are still not obediant to the Lord in their heart. Salvation by works alone in the Kingdom age. They can not have faith in Christ for they will all see him. you can only have faith in that which you cant see. Faith alon is only for this current age of Grace. in which God is creating his Highest Idea for mankind "Redeemed men and women made into the Image of Christ" keep you dispensation separate and you can study more easily. It is not the best but One Book Rightly Divided is a good place to start learning how to study dispensationally. Remember dispensationalism is not a doctrine it is a form of Studying the Bible through right Division. 2Tim. 2:15 KJV only by the way preserves that verse. |
There is nothing in the Sermon on the Mount that does not directly apply to this church age - in fact, there are things in that sermon that cannot apply to the Millenium or the Tribulation period. Such as "Thy Kingdom come." Doesn't make sense to pray for something to come after it is already here!!
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paul asked 1 cor 4 7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it jerry in his pride will answer I I I made myself to differ. Why, when I was offered a chance at accepting christ, I did that..but the others who refused, why they get what they deserve. i was less sinful than they, I was less in love with world than they, I cooperated with the grace of god more than they, I took advantage of the oppotunity.. You are a proud sinful man.. |
No, I am a saved man, trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
You still have not answered how you even know you are saved - because apparently you never made a conscious decision to trust Christ. That certainly makes me wonder!! Did you not learn anything during your ban for a week? You are still as condescending as you were before. |
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and yes you are a proud man believing you made a difference.. |
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If you have not received Jesus Christ, then you are not a child of God.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, |
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Jerry, have you ever looked on a woman and lusted after her in your heart? I have, but do you know why I haven't pluck out my eyes that offend me? Because Christ's teaching does not apply to this age. If my wife were raped or my children molested (forgive the illustration) should I as their husband/father teach them to "turn the other cheek." I won't do it, because that teaching is not for this age. Quote:
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No, it's a pretty good example. It just doesn't fit your hyper-dispensationalism.
Turn the other check is not law - an eye for an eye was law. As far as these verses go: Matthew 5:29-30 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Jesus is showing the seriousness of sin - it is better to be on earth and saved, without an eye or a hand, than to be whole and in hell. This is repeated in several other places in the Gospels. Instead of explaining these passages away, find out what they mean and apply them. It must be sad to thrown out so many rich passages that would otherwise be a blessing to you. |
HYPER!! Wow, what an accusation! You're really coming at me with the big guns now, huh?
Who said anything about law??? Christ is telling his people, that were promised a kingdom, about this kingdom - the kingdom that they were offered, and rejected. |
O Dear, how did this become a debate about dispensations?
Matthew 7 is written FOR us, but not TO us. No, it does not apply doctrinally, but it can teach some spiritual truths. Any back to Lordship Salvation; It all comes down to whether God wants men to prove to Him that they are good enough for Heaven (lordship), or whether Jesus Christ died for sinners, and wants to make it as easy as possible for them to come home (free grace). I would be interested to hear what Doctor Ruckman teaches in regards to this. I can't seem to find his stance on Lordship Salvation anywhere. |
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Unfortunately, I expected that reply...
I did say "I would be interested" in finding out his stance, not "I am desperate to know because I follow every idle word of his". God's word teaches Free Grace. I don't need to, and CANNOT, prove to God that my faith is real, by my works. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my faith. Any good works I do are his. There is nothing hard about the teachings in the sermon on the mount. In fact, I didn't even imply we chuck them out. I claimed that they destroyed Lordship Salvation as a doctrine. Friend, you need to stop shouting from your high horse. Too many fundamentalists do this. "You are decieved!" "You have been tricked by the devil!". Did you ever think that if I had been decieved, I may listen to someone who actually sounded like they cared about my soul, rather than someone who just wanted to be right.... |
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Jerry, it is true that the KJV be our final authroity. at the same time there is nothing wrong with wanting to know what other men feel on any given subject. those filled witht he Spirit can be taught by Him through another man. as you and I have by our pastors and authors of books.
you may not agree with what Ruckman believes, but at the same time you want other to beleive what you say or take your opinion of what the KJV says. if we want to know what others beleive there is nothing wrong with that. not all you have shared in the many forums you have posted in on this site (a lot) I would say is what the KJV says. it is sometimes your interpretation. sometime correct sometime not. but we appreciate to hear what you have to say and think about any given subject found in the KJV. |
Chette, you seem to be speaking to me ("you have posted in on this site (a lot)"), yet part of your comments fit what JerryW wrote above (who only posted once). Can you please clarify if that was who part of your post was addressed to? Thanks.
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I may have gotten the two of you mixed up sorry Jerry. Jerry W comment was the one I was refering too. I didn't see the W so I assumed it was you. so it can't apply to you because I had you two confused.
Let is go for now. |
Okay, thanks for clarifying that mixup.
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Luke,
I like the way you can handle yourself against folks who ride their confusion towards anger. If I'm confused, I'll simply admit it and ask questions! :) I've been wary of this lordship salvation thing for a couple months now, only hearing about it recently, and I want to ensure that I am on the right path. Quote:
As for the whole package, I've found some of their tracts very useful, and I've learned so many good analogies that really help in getting someone to understand things. I disaprove of their comfort-izing the KJ text to produce the Evidence bible, but I must aknowledge that it does contain lots of useful witnessing commentaries, helps and tactics. Then I found out I could just read all the supplemental material online for free, and not have bothered with the Evidence bible... anyways, I never use it for study. I honestly think that the method of using the law correctly, inoffensively tactical to revive the conscience of the unbeliever, circumventing their intellectual places of argument, and using the law for the purpose it was designed for: to show we are sinners in God's sight, and in need of the Saviour. Lots of great soul-winning scriptures have been learned, and the overall methodolgies seem sound and effective, not to mention a personal revival towards soul-winning. However I noted that they missed the boat on the episode of satanic influence in the church. They have a whole episode on this topic and miss 98% of the actual corruption, focusing just on the modern gospel perversion. (which IS important to talk about none the less). As a KJB-believer, I can discern well enough not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and use the good teachings, and forget the weak points. Really, the only thing I'm concerned about is this Lordship salvation issue. Its true that Comfort's methodologies are really quite sincere, and for the most part, scripturally and doctrinally correct, except when he talks about repenting of your sins; I wonder. It sort of lingers that one must repent completely before they can be saved. Personally, I think that a certain amount of repentance is required, but not complete repentance for every detail of you past life. I mean, one should be repenting of disbeleif, the sin at large they now feel convicted of, and desire to turn away from them to walk towards Jesus. Now I don't think there should be any kind of level indicator as to just how much sin needs to be dealt with up front. It seems like enough to convict the person that the wages of sin is death (hell) would be enough. Enough repentance to come to a trusting in only Jesus Christ's ability to be able to fully forgive the sin. But one doesn't go overboard, greiving the spirit by intentionally taking liberties to sin because of the grace. And one doesn't regress, thinking there is a factor of earning or maintaining it through trying hard. Perhaps I'm a little fuzzy here, and that's why I'd like some clarification. As an eternally saved born-again beleiver who still struggles with sins, I know that complete repentance and utter lordship is unattainable while in my fleshly body. Although, I can testify that once I was saved, a large portion of my former lusts, sins and nature just seemed to fall away, without any desire to go back. But there is still some left, so I know its possible to be saved and not be perfect right away :P I heard an interesting theory, that when a person gets saved, God deals with certain things in their life that He knew they needed gone for preservation's sake, something that was dangerous. And He will leave some things that are there as trials for you to deal with in His strength, to learn to excersie our faith. I wish I could promise shorter posts. My question is this: is there a rule of thumb one can use to divide lordship salvation from graceful salvation? (more than just a works-based vs. faith-based definition.) Any exampes of people teaching lordship? Thanks for reading this post, and for any replies. |
"Sis Tracy", as she calls herself, spews out Lordship Salvation bigtime.
Here is one of her pages. She seems to think that Jesus commands us to repent fully of all our sins and make Him complete Lord of our life and Him our sole authority before one can be saved. To make it brief, Lordship Salvation teaches the above. The Bible teaches that "repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth" is nessesary for savlation. In other words, simply turn to Christ as your Saviour and believe, trusting Him to save you. Big difference! In Christ, Josh |
Thanks for the reply Josh,
I guess that's what I had come to the conclusion lordship salvation was, self-purification before salvation. I am in complete agreement that this is an absolutely false doctrine/path. I don't however see how Ray Comfort attains this teaching when he tells people to repent and turn away from their sins before (immediately before) trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. A contrite heart does go with salvation, and continued repentance and separation should continue to occur after salvation, as it has for me. By no means could anyone purify themselves before salvation, its just illogical. Luke, you got anything to add, having had some experience with the way of the master materials? |
The Law being a school master is again a section of verses in Galatians that needs to be rightly divided. in context it is about what had been taught to the Gentiles the obediance to the Law as a requirement for Salvation. Paul goes into his discussion and you will notice all the context is to whom the Law was given all of Israel. the law was a schoolmaster for Jews not Gentiles. though we may be guided by it. the gentiles were never under law at any time. and Paul never puts the Gentiles under law in order for the Law to drive them to Christ. because he would put them under a curse that Christ had already taken on himself.
Paul merely states that the purpose of the Law (which is for Israel only) and that it was to drive them as a school master to Christ. and anyone who puts themself under the Law first, must keep all the law or be cursed. so even thought Ray likes to use the law to drive Gentiles to Christ. the point is the Gentiles were never required to keep them in the first place. that is why so many people say, "true I can not keep the Ten Commandments" because they have never be required too. However Paul being a Jew kept them all and had reason to boast in his own righteousness because he did so. but counted it all lost for faith in Christ righteousness alone apart from his own righteousness. Lordship salvation and Ray Comfort have a lot more in common than meets the eye. However just because someone can confess they can not keep the law and is led to beleief on Christ's finished work and ask Jesus to be lord of their life does not prove that what Ray is teaching is correct. for example many are always asking for people to come forward, make confessions of faith, raise their hands and other things which are nothing more that proofs that the preacher lacks faith that people have believed on Christ apart from their invitations and other gimicks. Paul never gave an invitation for anyone to ever receive Christ from Acts through Philemon. Yet people were beleiving left and right and added to the Body of Christ. the methodology of Ray is not found in scripture but the scriptures he uses are. but it doesn't make it Biblical. |
Hi Chette777,
Thanks for the reply, I do understand, of course, that the Law was given TO the Jews, and that us Gentiles were never UNDER the Law. But since all scripture is profitable, and although not all is written TO us, it is FOR us. Now, I'm not necessarily siding with Ray Comfort, but I must point out that the law can still be Biblically used on the Gentiles, NOT to attain salvation by keeping the law, no no no, but because BY the law comes the knowledge of sin: Romans 3:20 and 7:7 are just two examples that come to mind quickly, I'm sure there are more. Also, Jesus Himself used the law to convict the woman at the well in John 4 and bring her to a desire for salvation. The gentiles of yesterday and today are lulled into ignorance of sin by the enemy, they honestly don't think they deserve judgement. Adamic sin is something the average person on the street doesn't know about or care about, but the use of the law (which is also written in their hearts, Romans 2:15) can revive the conscience, and bring about realization and conviction of sin, thereby driving them like a schoolmaster to Christ. If I had more time right now, I know there are more scriptures indicating that this is a Biblical method for today. I am a dispensationalist, just to make that clear, but I'll admit I could be wrong in rightly dividing the word here or there, that's why I am studying and praying to stay on the straight and narrow path. (A workman needs to work at it, Amen?) I have done my studies in Romans and Galatians, and I do think that its fairly straightforward to rightly divide who was under the law and who is not. But that still doesn't negate the designed effect and intended usage of the law. I know we are not UNDER the law, but the effect of the law is the same. Even the Jews under the law couldn't attain salvation by it, they had to atone continually. It was to drive them to seek salvation. The way of the master method brings people to look at themselves not from a worldly perspective, but from God's, leaving none justified, and in dire need of a Saviour. Galatians was written to converted Jews and gentiles in the church of Galatia. It was illustrating the transition from law to grace that Christ brought us. The schoolmaster reference is like the direction of change from law to grace. I earnestly do want to be sure about Ray Comfort's stuff, since I am practicing it and passing it on to others. If there are aspects I can revise, and keep the good stuff, I will. I'd like to hear any and all more opinions about the way of the master method. I might sound like a Ray Comfort defender, but I'm not, its just that I do see alot of good in there, but I want to find out what is legitimately bad, in order to avoid it. I do know that most pseudo-Christians get angry at the concept of using the law, but that's because they either a) aren't reading their Bibles, b) have been lulled by Laodecian teachings of love love love, c) are so afraid of the term legalistic, they reject anything to do with the law, or d) are afraid to see that their own witnessing method could use some shaping up. Now I'm NOT labeling anyone here as a,b,c or d. In fact, I pursue this topic in this forum because I can see that most people here are sound Bible-believers, and I value your inputs greatly. |
the verse Roms 3:20 is in context to those who are under law that come to the Knowledge of sin. Chapter 3 of Romans is a chapter addressing the Jews righteousness in the Law. again we never have Paul using the law to drive people to Christ. it is not Biblical in that sense.
the woman at the well was driven to the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of Grace for salvation. Samaritans are halfblooded Jews who had rebelled against the Lords command to come to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices. 7:7 is again a Jew who had learned sin from the Law, not a Gentile. Paul is explaning the weakness of the law to save not that it drives people to Christ. Good luck in your endeavors to be sure about Ray stuff. But just look at Paul's stuff he never does the Ray stuff. I have had more success following Paul than Ray. I learned under Ray at YWAM, a very liberal and charimatic organization of which I am glad to be out of. We had him for two weeks straight. best kept secret and some other teaching back in the early '90's. I have never used the Law to lead a single person to Christ. I preach Christs' finished work on the cross(that would include the substitutionary death, blood atonement, God justice being appeased, etc..) and his resurrection. I led seven young ladies to the Lord on August 1st using the Paul stuff. I have faith as I preach people will beleive and it is evident in the growth of our church and in the lives of those whom I was able to impact with the Gospel of Grace. I am not a love love love guy, I am not sucked into the Charismatic experiencial Rock and Roll concert gospel of love and let live. But God is the one who works, I only let him and give him the glory. Blessing in your endeavors bro. |
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Is this what the verse implies, that is, does it imply that you must do some type of work in order to be accepted by Christ? I don't believe this is what the verse means. I'd be interested to see what effect Comfort had on you. Why did you doubt your salvation? |
I'll edit this later - sorry I haven't been around. I'll post up my thoughts on all this shortly :D
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Oops, guess I can't edit, but here is my reply
BibleBeliever - I find Ray's methods to be good. It's nothing new, as he himself claims, but he has made it popular, along with his pal Kirk Cameron. The presentation of the gospel is clear and biblical. As biblical as you can get. The Law, followed by Grace of God. The two major problems I see with Ray's ministry as it stands today is this i) His invitation is unbiblical. It is not simply "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" but focuses heavily on repentance, and puts repentance as an action, or work (although many will deny that). It makes salvation relative. I have learnt something recently. In my endeavours to combat Lordship Salvation, I almost disregarded repentance completely, but have come to see that we must repent from SIN, not sinS. We have a sin nature, and we need to repent of that. We must come to God admitting we are sinners, and we have sinned, and can do nothing without Him. However, Ray's repentance is "God, I repent of my sins (name some of them)". Now, what if the believer goes and does that very same sin again? Maybe it's something gross, like drunkenness, or fornication. Or maybe it's something like lying. They are all sins. So we have this dilemman in Romans 7, where the believer sincerely desires to be rid of their sin, but have been told things like "until they repent of it they cannot be saved" and they can't stop sinning until they get saved, so they remain either lost, or they are saved with confusion and doubts, and are useless either way. His invitation is unbiblical ii) His ministry is one of many ministries that have popped up recently that focus on DOUBT. Basically, Ray's ministry, along with John MacArthur, Paul Washer and a bunch of others, have built up a ministry of doubt. If you are saved by the blood and know it, they want you to not know it. Instead of encouraging believers to simply examine ourselves to see if we are in God's will and in the faith (which is not calling into question our salvation at all), they tell believers to continually examine themselves, AND everybody else to see if they are saved. It's not enough to believe in the atonement of the blood of Christ. They claim things like "If you are not continually repenting every day, you are on your way to hell" - Paul Washer. Their entire ministry is a ministry of doubt. Three of Macarthur's books that I know of are all about this - "The Gospel according to Jesus", "Hard to Believe - the High Cost and Infinite value of following Jesus" and "Faith Works". Don't get me wrong, I understand the sincerity behind there position. They see the quick prayerism crowd (and I think they are wrong too), and have tried to combat it, but in doing so, have taken the opposite end of the field. While quick prayerism removes any notion to doing any good works as evidence of salvation, lordship salvationists remove discipleship, growing in grace, the freeness of salvation etc. |
Sadly Brother Luke, In all these teachings of lordship salvation, by Comfort and whoever else is teaching it, all roads lead to one place, ROME!
The Pope would be proud that they have added works to salvation, now they are all one step closer together. There is that middle ground they shall meet on. Not for me, NOT EVER! I will believe and have Faith in the fact that My Father In Heaven sent his only BEGOTTEN Son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for MY SINS, my sins before salvation and my sins after salvation, until the day I am called home and made PERFECT by Him. Until then I am a wretched sinner and when I do sin, yes I DO pray that My LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ forgives me. If I name some of those sins then I would become self righteous because I would be picking out a particular sin, and ignoring one that GOD knew about but I didn't, therefore we should accept the fact WE ARE ALL MISERABLE SINNERS and ask forgiveness for our SIN, its universal we do it, even unaware we do it, so come to the LORD knowing you are an unworthy sinner and ask forgiveness for that simple fact in bold. And hold fast in the Hope that is in Jesus Christ and his return to deliver us from imperfection to perfection, into glorified Bodies. 1st Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. |
actually it leads to "Mystery BABYlon MOTHER of all harlots and abominations". the more recent Roman Church have and are just promoting what has been ongoing since before the tower of Babel. the worship of a mother and her baby. found as far back as recorded in the Sumerian and Acadian(SP?) cuniform tablets unearthed in Iraq in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
these reliegious practices handed down from Babel to the Roman church today are nothing new and end in an attempt to bring all men together in one worship and one government under the Devil himself. it is the mother of all harlots (false gods and idols) and abominations (false religious practices) and it all came from teh Devil even before the flood by one of the sons or daughter in laws of Noah. |
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