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stephanos 10-27-2008 03:45 PM

Paul Washer exposed!
 
I know some folks don't like brother Steve Anderson, but he is so right on this guy. Paul Washer has become a disease within the Church lately. He preaches Lordship Salvation, which I used to believe, and have repented of. Let us pray that this man does the same, and uses his passion and zeal for preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD4l97xmWcw

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Luke 10-27-2008 04:13 PM

Amen amen amen. Paul Washer caused me to doubt my salvation for ages, because I was constantly looking at myself and judging my holiness.

His "famous" sermon, the one that is "so shocking and biblical he was never invited back" has a lot of good points in it, and it is very convicting, and I believe God has used it for some good, but there is a lot of false doctrine/works based salvation in it. I have seen Arminians/Holiness defend that sermon as being totally biblical, claiming that washer teaches you can lose your salvation (he is a calvinist, so he doesn't teach that at all, at least not in his statement of faith).

It seems to me that a bunch of self righteous hypocrites of the southern baptist/new evangelical pursuasion have claimed washer for their own. He helps to make them seem holy and teaching the truth, compared to the majority of charasmatic churches in the states.

The things he says about "easy believism" are both good and bad. No, a prayer doesn't save you, but yes, if you ask Jesus to forgive you, believing He will, then He will. Washer's idea of salvation is begging God for it, like God has His free gift, but He is only offering it to people who beg for it and grovel and do some kind of penance.

I don't know what his work is like on the mission field. He may do a lot of good, but I know that I cannot promote him, because he is a calvinist, and I find that doctrine deplorable.

JMWHALEN 10-27-2008 04:15 PM

Forgiveness/Justification in this dispensation:

Believers in the gospel of Christ of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 have submitted themselves "unto the righteousness of God"(Romans 10:3).

We now have the righteousness of God, Romans 3:21-25, 4:5, secured through the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ(1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The LORD God has justified us forever because He sees us "in Christ": Acts 13;43; Romans 3:24-28, 4:25, 5:1,9, 8:30; 1 Cor. 6:11; Galatians 2:16, 3:24; Titus 3:7. This is an immutable reckoning in the mind of God. Justification is that judicial act of God by which, on account of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom I am united("in Christ") by faith, He declares me to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the righteous requirements of the law, but restored to divine favor. I have been declared righteous. Justfication is an act, not a process. Upon believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4, I was given a free gift(Romans 5:18)-a righteous standing before a Holy God. This gift, by definition, has nothing to do with what I have done or who I am. No amount of self-effort or good works could ever bring one to justification. I did not justify myself-it is God who justifies. This gift is unchanging. Once God declared me righteous on the merit of the eternal Son of God, the Lord jesus Christ, the sin question regarding me has been settled once for all.

Justification is more than forgiveness, since implicit in forgiveness is guilt and cancellation/removal of sin(negative), while justification is "not guilty" and the bestowing of the merit and standing of the Lord Jesus Christ(positive). Justification is not equivalent to being pardoned. A pardoned criminal is still a criminal. Justification removes the guilt. God thus not only forgets my sin, but forgets that I am a sinner-and all because He sees me "in Christ".

Because I am "in Christ Jesus", I have been "...made the righteousness of God in him..."(1 Corinthians 1:30, 2 Corinthians 5:21). I am "... found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."Phillippians 3:9:

All my sins(plural-1 Cor. 15:1-4) were forgiven at Calvary and the resurrection 3 days later:

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense)of sins" Col. 1:14

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you all trespasses" Col. 2:13

"Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave(emphasis mine-past tense)you, so also do ye." Col. 3:13

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness(emphasis mine-past tense) of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Eph. 1:7

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven(emphasis mine-past tense) you" Eph. 4:32.

In Romans 5:12 Paul is no longer dealing with sins(plural), but rather with the SOURCE, the principle of indwelling sin. Romans 5:12 is speaking of identification-our positional history. We were all identified positionally with the source of humanity-"in Adam". When Adam sinned and thereby positionally died to God, I died with him. When he became flesh, so did I in him. When he was judged I was also judged in him.

Unlike its product, sins(plural), sin COULD NOT BE FORGIVEN, for it would be sin still. A forgiven thief is still a thief! Hence, sin had to be condemned/judged in death:

"...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for SIN(emphasis mine-not sins), condemned SIN(emphasis mine) in the flesh."(Romans 8:3).

Thus, my SINS were forgiven by the principle of SUBSTITUTION:
"...Christ died for our sins..."(1 Cor 15:3)/"...gave himself for our sins...." Gal. 1:4

But our SIN was condemned/judged by the principle of IDENTIFICATION-2 Cor. 5:21="...to be SIN(emphasis mine) for us..."


Again, sins(plural) can be forgiven, but sin(singular), cannot be forgiven-it must be judged. That is, the sin nature, who I was "in Adam"(1 Cor. 15:22), was not forgiven at Calvary. My then future sins were forgiven("Christ died for our sins"-plural-emphasis mine-1 Cor. 15:3), but I, as the Adamic "old man"(Romans 6:6, Eph. 4:22, Col.3:9), the source of those sins, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged/condemned, and it was at Calvary.. "For he(God the Father-emphasis mine) hath made him(the Son of God-emhasis mine) to be sin for us...."(2 Cor. 5"21)/"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..."(Romans 8:3)

Thus, while the Lamb of God was on the cross, God the Father laid amm my as-yet-uncommitted sins upon God the Son, and His death by blood for those sins freed me from the penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father identified(the meaning of the word "baptize") me, in my Adamic life of sin, with His Son, who was made to be that sin(2 Cor. 5:21). In Him, I died to sin. In my death unto sin in the Lord Jesus Christ's death, I was freed from all that I was in the "first man Adam"(1 Cor. 15:45), and was re-created in the "last Adam"(1 Cor. 15:45)-Romans 6:5, 2 Cor. 5:17, Eph. 2:10.

Thus, all my sins were forgiven via the principle of substitution, i.e., "...Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...."(1 Cor. 15:3). But my sin was condemned/judged via the principle of identification, i.e., "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21). The Lord Jesus Christ did not die for sin, but for sins. Being made sin, our sin, He was judged, condemned, and crucified in our place.

Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for SIN, but for SINS. Being made sin, our sin, He was judged, condemned, and crucified. He, being the sinless one, died unto sin-out of the realm of sin-having paid the price in full. Thence He was free to rise from among the dead into "newness of life"-heavenly, glorified, "new creation life."

I, the natural man in condemned Adam, was not forgiven for who I am "in Adam"(WRONG BEING) at the cross. My then future SINS were forgiven, but I, as the Adamic "old man", the SOURCE of those SINS, was not forgiven. Sin must be judged-it was -Romans 8:3. While the Lamb of God was on the cross, God the Father laid ALL of my as-yet-uncommitted sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ , and His death for those sins freed me from their penalty. While the Lord Jesus Christ was on that same cross, God the Father IDENTIFIED me, in my Adamic life of sin, with His Son who was made to be that sin(2 Cor. 5:21). In Him, I died unto sin positionally. Again, I, the sinful one, was not forgiven for who I am "in Adam"-my sins were forgiven, but not the "old man", the SOURCE of those sins. I was not forgiven in order to start all over as a "first-Adam" person. No! "I was crucified with Christ"(Gal. 2:20, Romans 6:6)-I died unto sin in Him. In that death I was positionally separated from my Adamic life, the SOURCE of sin. The Lord Jesus Christ's death FOR me redeemed me from the penalty of my sins; my positional death WITH Him freed me from the condemned/judged Adamic life and its rulership.

Romans 6:6 sets forth doctrinally, and positionally, what happened to believers as IDENTIFIED with the Lord Jesus Christ in His death unto sin on the cross. I, the old Adamic man, was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed-condemned/judged in death-not forgiven. I, the sinful one, was judged in the death of the cross in order that I might be re-created in the risen life of the "last Adam." In my death unto sin in the Lord Jesus Christ's death, I was freed from all that I was in the first Adam, and I was re-created in the last Adam as He rose from the dead-Romans 6:5 "planted together"=IDENTIFIED(the meaning of baptism)/UNITED, 2 Cor. 5:17, Eph. 2:10 "created in Christ Jesus."

I refuse to ask the LORD God to forgive me for something He already took care of 2000 years ago-that is unbelief. When Christ died, I died. When He was buried, I was buried. When He rose from the dead, I rose from the dead, When He ascended, I ascended. Hence, the meaning of "baptized into Christ"-Gal. 3:27, Romans 6:3/"baptized into his death"-Romans 6:3=IDENTIFICATION. I have been judged already, all my sins I have committed, or will commit, have been forgiven, and I have been justified. No one can 'lay any charges' against me-"...It is God that justifieth"(Romans 8:33).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access(emphasis mine) by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 1, 2

Peace means the war is over. I was an enemy(Romans 5:10 ), but I am no longer. Only enemies need reconcilliation. God is not angry with me any longer, and is not imputing my sins to my account(2 Cor. 5:19). And by His grace, I have not only reconciled, but justified. As hard as it is for The RCC to accept it, it is a FACT that when God looks at me, he does not see my sin, or my sins(sin, singular, was judged at Calvary, and all sins, plural, were forgiven by 1 Cor. 15:1-4-"my old man" was judged at the cross, all my sins are gone, never to be brought up again or charged to me again), nor my righteousness, he sees the righteousness of his son. So then, if God the Father has a problem with me, he would then have to have a problem with the Lord Jesus Christ-impossible!

Peace means the LORD God has NOTHING against me. This involves:

1. That God has fully judged sin, upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my substitute.
2. That God was so fully satisfied with Christ's sacrifice, that he will eternally remain so; he will never take up the judgment of my sin again="What sin"?
3. That God is therefore at rest about me forever, however poor my understanding of truth, and however weak my walk is. God is looking at the blood of Christ and his righteousness, not my sins. All the demanding claims of the Law were met by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My peace is not as between 2 nations before at war; but as a king and rebellious, rotten, guilty subjects. My heart is at rest because God, against which all sin is directed, has been fully satisfied at the cross(propitiation). "Peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" does not mean peace through what he is now doing, but through what he did do on the cross. All the majesty of God's holy and righteous throne was satisfied by the Lord Jesus Christ by his death, burial, and resurrection. And now, being raised from the dead, the Lord Jesus Christ is my peace. But is is his past work at Calvary, not his present work of intercession, that all is based upon; and this gives all believers a sense of peace which he made through his blood.

Re. " By whom also we have access", the word "also" sets this blessing forth as distinct from and additional to that of peace with God. Through the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we have believed, we have been given to the JUSTIFIED(the basis of our access) access into a wonderful standing in divine favor, totally "...accepted in the beloved...."(Eph. 1:6). Being in Christ, we have the very favor, access, in which Christ stands and has.

Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting something you do not deserve. THE FINALITY OF THE CROSS settled the sin issue-it was dealt with completely 2000 years ago, when JUSTICE, MERCY, AND GRACE. were all put on public display"-the meaning of "...set forth...." in Romans 3:25. God has already accomplished JUSTICE by judging His only Begotten Son in my stead, and thus I received 1. MERCY=not getting what I deserved because the Lord Jesus Christ took my judgment by taking my place="FOR"=the principle of substitution and identification, and 2.GRACE=getting something I don't deserve=the righteousness of God in Christ through the principle of imputation.

Again, the Holy Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ died once for all sin and sins inclusively-all issues were settled, including THE BARRIER which prevented my communication with a holy LORD GOD=access. While "short accounts" for forgiveness was the method God used to deal with the sin issue in the past(including the sacrificial system of continuous confession and sacrifice, and including the time of "the gospels"), it is no longer in this dispensation. I am complete in Christ(Col. 2:10), and thus there can never be a "sin issue" or "fellowship" problem, lest God somehow is not satisfied with the work of his Son. Either God took care of all issues, or he did not. He did.

All my sins were deposited in hell 2000 years ago. The Lord God sees me as completely justified and righteous, and no charges can be held to my account-the court and jury met 2000 years ago, the payment for sin was made, sin(singular)was judged, and all sins(plural) were forgiven. These charges were dismissed 2000 years ago, not because of anything I did, or will do or not do in the future, but because of already was done on my behalf by this great and only Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. Since I am "in Christ", the LORD God sees His Son and His righteousness. My standing with God does not depend on me asking for forgiveness, or repenting of sin(my "walk"-sanctification)- that is unbelief, asking the LORD God to do something he has already done, and making justification dependent on my faithfulness to service, instead of the faithfulness of the Saviour.

Nowhere in Paul's inspired writings did the Lord Jesus Christ instruct him to teach about incremental forgiveness, or that we are to go to the "forgiveness bank" and to make a withdrawal each time we sin. Instead, we are to believe that we are forgiven, and to thank God, out of gratitude, and not fear(which never motivates man to serve God, as demonstrated by Israel's experience and testimony in the OT) for his grace! Is the riches of God's grace magnified when we believe in his completed work, and Christ's all inclusive forgiveness, or when you ask God to forgive you over and over again, when he told us that we have already been forgiven? Is your forgiveness conditioned based upon how many times you ask or plead or "confess", or are we to believe it is a done deal? I suggest you not ask "how you feel"(human emotions are unreliable and deceitful), or what you have heard from "mainstream" Christianity, which mostly fails to "rightly divide the word of truth", to find the truth in this dispensation.

The Biblical order is SONSHIP(justification), then SERVICE(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", and are confusing service to our Father AS SONS with service TO BECOME SONS. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus", despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything, make this deadly error. The LORD God needs nothing from us(Acts 17:25, Job 35:7, Haggai 2:8) and is not, and will not, condition/make "giving our life to Him"(service) the basis for His acceptance of us. Again, The LORD God has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ's voluntary sacrificial offering of HIS LIFE, not ours, as proptiatory(satisfactory). All service is a priviledged responsibility given as a gift to those who have been declared adopted sons by faith in the finished and faithful work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy means "sanctified"=set aside for God's purpose. But God only uses those instruments that are His sons, and "saints" describes those who are already justified=His="in Christ". And the LORD God would have us know this biblical order in Corithians-Paul calls the Corinthians, the most carnal, dirty, lustful group of believer SAINTS.

Consider the book of Galatians, which is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and DEFENSE(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Interestingly enough, Paul had nothing but condemnation for the Galatians, and yet, for the Corinthians, as mentioned, the most carnal bunch of Christians, who were engaged in adultery, drunkeness, gluttony.....he had words of encouragement, and never questioned their justification, as witnessed by his continual reference to them as "in Christ", and as SAINTS. This should be an object lesson for us all, and should cause each of us to cry with joy and praise for the truly amazing grace bestowed upon e! ach one of us wherby we are made "...accepted in the beloved...."(Ephesians 1:6) by this great God of ours(Psalms 145:3). And this should be our motivation to "...walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called...."(Ephesians 4:1), "..walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God...."(Colossians 1:10), "...walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory...."(1 Thessalonians 2:12), "..walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more...."(1 Thessalonians 4:1),."...as children of light...."(Ephesians 5:8), which is our "....reasonable service...."(Romans 12:1) as sons.

No one would disagree with anyone who would say we should "live a holy life before God"(sanctification), BUT NOT AS A BASIS FOR OUR ACCEPTANCE by Him-not as our basis for JUSTIFICATION! We live a holy life because we are sons, because we are justified, because we are saved, NOT TO BE SONS, NOT TO BE JUSTIFIED, NOT TO BE SAVED.

No one has,or can, truly(and this is a subjective criteria)repent(ed) of all their sins", no one has, or can "surrender 100% to the Lordship of Jesus Christ"(and this is a subjective criteria), no one has "put away the things or our previous life and life style", no one has, or can, "live(d) for God 100%", for all have been pronounced "guilty"(Romans 3:19 ), and "...come short of the glory of God...."(Romans 3:23), in not only what we do, but what we do not do, and how we think. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being". Nor will the LORD God accept any offering these acts of service as a basis for justification, but will only accept the death by blood OFFERING of the Lord Jesus Christ's spotless life, NOT OURS, and his resurrection, as a basis for our justification as sons.

Phrases such as "giving one's life, heart("commitment") is not the proper object of faith.. Again, salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life".........-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses SERVICE with SALVATION. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God.

Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7). Statements such as " ...I believe salvation is a journey; it is not a moment in time" reflect this mindset and false doctrine. Sanctification is a journey, but justification is not. Justification is a "moment in time" declaration of righteousness based on the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Practically every false doctrine is a result of "getting things out of order", as I mentioned previously. The divine order is justification, then change/sanctification, not change/sanctification and then salvation. Notice in Romans 5:6, God "JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY(emphasis mine)"-no "fixing yourself up first", no "stop sinning first".......... Notice in Romans 5:8, "while we were yet SINNERS(emphasis mine), Christ died for us". Again, those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus, commit your life to Jesus"(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!) make this deadly error-confusing sancification with justification.

Many error by thinking that "stop sinning"=acts of commission "solves the sin issue". You could "stop sinning" all the rest of your life(which is a self righteous PRIDE that no one can do), and that would not allow you in the presence of our Holy God. Sin is not just wrong acts, it is "not doing what you are suppose to do", and it is "wrong thinking"-thus,"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". The LORD God has pronounced all of us GUILTY, with no exceptions(read Romans again)-guilty of not only what we do, but guilty of falling short of his absolute standard, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST="who he wants us to beThe biblical requirement is not just forgiveness=a pardon for an offence, but JUSTIFICATION=a legal declaration of righteousness, and includes not just "stop doing what is wrong", but also DOING EVERYTHING THAT IS RIGHT in thought, word, and deed(had any evil thoughts today? I have). And this is "the righteousness of God in him"(2 Cor. 5:21), the "righteousness of God"(Romans 1:17), " righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Romans 3:22), "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:9).

The divine operation works from within to without, the opposite of Satan's "modest operandi"(sic), which works from the outside of man to within. We need to preach the gospel of Christ, and not confuse the "fruits" of salvation, the effects of salvation, which is our "walk"/sanctification, with the CAUSE of salvation. Only the gospel of Christ is the"power of God unto salvation"(Romans 1:16)- and this is the power of God from the PENALTY of sin (justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presence of sin(glorification).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5


In Christ and with Christ ,

John M. whalen

JMWHALEN 10-27-2008 04:58 PM

Repentance:

The term merely means to "change one's mind". The context determines what you are to change your mind about.

But it is not automatically "turning from sin", "admitting sinful behaviour"........or you are declaring that God is a sinner!:


Genesis 6:6
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Genesis 6:7
"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Exodus 32:14
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people".

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Deuteronomy 32:36
"For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left."

Judges 2:18
"And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them".

1 Samuel 15:11
"It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night."

1 Samuel 15:29
"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."

1 Samuel 15:35
"And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

2 Samuel 24:16
"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite."

1 Chronicles 21:15
"And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destr! oying, t he LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite."

Psalm 90:13
"Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants".

Psalm 106:45
"And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies".

Psalm 110:4
"The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

Psalm 135:14
"For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants."

Jeremiah 4:28
"For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."

Jeremiah 18:10
"If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Jeremiah 20:16
"And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;"

Jeremiah 26:3
"If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings."

Jeremiah 26:13
"Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you."

Jeremiah 26:19
"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls."

Jeremiah 42:10
"If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto y! ou."

Ezekiel 24:14
"I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD."

Hosea 11:8
"How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together."

Hosea 13:14
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."

Joel 2:13
"And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

Amos 7:3
"The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD."

Amos 7:6
"The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD."

Jonah 3:9
"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Jonah 3:10
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Jonah 4:2
"And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil."

Zech 8:14
"For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:"

The good news is not stop sinning-that is not the gospel of Christ of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, for that is truly bad news,for no one can stop sinning, or turn from all their sins, and, more importantly, justification is not dependent on this. . Stop sinning is sanctification, our "walk" of service as sons not justification. People are making the condition of justification to be stop sinning-No! The simple requirement is BELIEF-this is simple, and this is the only requirement. We must not make the requirement for justification conditioned on something we do=that is a work. "Turning from sin", "stop sinning" are works.


I may sound like "a broken record", but we all need to "call" anyone that attempts to pervert the gospel of Christ with another gospel, which is NOT GOOD NEWS(Galatians Chapter 1), but is under a curse. That is,any attempts to add a works-based performance system as a requirement for justification, and that includes the erroneous notion that "repent", in the context of salvation, means "to turn from your sins", should be sternly rebuked.. This is "serious business" folks-souls are at stake. Justification is a one time event, and repentance, as it pertains to justification, and salvation from the penalty of sin(notice I did not say repentance as it pertains to salvation from the power of sin, which is SANCTIFICATION), is also a one time event.

We should not stand idly by and allow someone to make the typical "Lordship Salvation" argument, which is also under a curse, by confusing SERVICE=SANCTIFICATION with salvation. The biblical order is sonship, then service, and not vica versa. We must define this word as the Holy Bible does, and this is not just semantics. And the Holy Bible defines repent simply as "to change one's mind or heart"-it is that simple. The context of the subject matter determines what one must "change your mind" about.

How do we know that repent means "change of mind"? As shown, because the LORD God repented. No believer would claim that the LORD God can sin.

But repentance is never defined as "turning from your sins", "a work that requires something on our part","getting sin out of your life", "stop continually and intentionally keep doing the same thing" "changing your actions", as it pertains to justification(declaration of righteousness) of the sinner, and is never made a prerequisite, an "up front charge" in any of the presentation of the "gospel of Christ", the "gospel of the grace of God", as presented by the apostle Paul in Romans through Philemon, and as outlined in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5-never. Repent, as it refers to man and his acceptance by a Holy God with regards to justification, refers to man changing his mind about himself and his ability to save himself through a performance based system, i.e., "The Law". It is a "mental about face", a realization of man's own sinfulness(conviction), an abhorrence of oneself(Isaiah's "...Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips...." -6:5), an "I cannot save myself-only the LORD God can save me" mindset.

As I have said many times, the Biblical order is SONSHIP(justification), then SERVICE(sanctification). Those who reverse this biblical order are putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", and are confusing service to our Father as sons with service to become sons. Those who make statements such as "make Jesus Lord of your life", "turn your life over to Jesus, give your life to Jesus"(despite the fact that the heart of the gospel is the Lord Jesus Christ GIVING HIS LIFE FOR US, and has nothing to do with us giving him anything!), make this deadly error.


I ask everyone to ask themselves if they have "stopped sinning", "turned from all their sins". I have not, but I thank the LORD that my salvation is not, and cannot be, dependent on what I do, but was already done 2000 years ago by the Lord Jesus Christ, by his faith, and all the LORD God asks is that I believe it! News, by definition, is something that has already happened!

Now, everyone who takes this stand, be ready for "the afflictions of the gospel"(2 Tim. 1:8).

In and with Christ,

John M. Whalen

PS: Who ever heard of "hiring your boss?"=Lordship Salvation
The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord, in the sense here of master, owner, controller, "boss", not because we "make" him such, but because God the Father gave him this position:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God(my emphasis) hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ(my emphasis)." Acts 2:36

Whether we believe it or not, does not change this fact.

stephanos 10-27-2008 05:08 PM

JMWHALEN, those are both very good posts. Are those from a book that I might be able to read myself, or did you write those out just now?

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

JMWHALEN 10-27-2008 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 10187)
JMWHALEN, those are both very good posts. Are those from a book that I might be able to read myself, or did you write those out just now?

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

Thank you, brother. When I was saved out of "Romanism" 10 years ago, I spent much of my time reading the scripture, and writing articles to expound on (hopefully!) those scriptures, rightly divided(2 Timothy 2:15). I do not always "rightly" divide(and who does!), but that is my aim, and charge. I encourage all to be "noble", i.e., practice Acts 17:11="check me out" to see if the things I write "were so." And all are commanded to correct me/others when I/they am/are wrong(2 tim. 3:16 and a host of others) and are not teaching "sound doctrine"(Titus 1:9-2:1).

The post(s) were a compilation of notes over the years.

John M. Whalen

PS: Re. sanctification. Did you ever notice that you cannot physically crucify yourself? Try it-impossible. The Holy Bible would have us to know that even our sanctification, the "crucifixion of the flesh", is of the LORD! Acts 17:11

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philippians 1:6

Forrest 10-28-2008 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN (Post 10180)
I refuse to ask the LORD God to forgive me for something He already took care of 2000 years ago-that is unbelief. When Christ died, I died. When He was buried, I was buried. When He rose from the dead, I rose from the dead, when He ascended, I ascended.

Hence, the meaning of "baptized into Christ"-Gal. 3:27, Romans 6:3/"baptized into his death"-Romans 6:3=IDENTIFICATION. I have been judged already, all my sins I have committed, or will commit, have been forgiven, and I have been justified. No one can 'lay any charges' against me-"...It is God that justifieth"(Romans 8:33).

In Christ and with Christ ,

John M. Whalen

Thank you for sharing this, Brother John. I also think there is a "bondage" among many true believers today who are not appropriating, by faith, the realities of who and what they are in Christ!

You've addressed many "key doctrines" in your two posts. The great joy to me is that every single doctrine you've referred to is taken care of in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (forgiveness, redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation). I lack "nothing" and "can do nothing" to ever appease a holy, righteous, and perfect God. Believing and receiving Jesus Christ takes care of the just and holy requirements God demands for the appeasement of my sins.

Your quote above is difficult to fully accept by many believers. I am not required, once I've become a believer in the Gospel of truth to "confess" my sins in order to be "forgiven" for my sins. Jesus has already taken care of that. That's the Good News! (1 John 1:9, is not suggesting or commanding that a believer, who has already been cleansed by the precious blood of Christ, is required to continually "confess sins" in order to be forgiven of sins and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness.) We live in such a "duty driven" and "purpose driven" society, that receiving and resting in the biblical realities, by faith, of what we have in Christ is a very difficult thing to do, to say the least.

These are some additional scriptures that come to mind as I read your essay.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
I think we all agree, do not sin. But what happens if we do?
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Thanks again for your encouragement regarding this immeasurable truth of Jesus Christ's all sufficiency and preeminence in all things. And may we, "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen" (2 Peter 3:18). :)

JMWHALEN 10-28-2008 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 10269)
Thank you for sharing this, Brother John. I also think there is a "bondage" among many true believers today who are not appropriating, by faith, the realities of who and what they are in Christ!

You've addressed many "key doctrines" in your two posts. The great joy to me is that every single doctrine you've referred to is taken care of in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (forgiveness, redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation). I lack "nothing" and "can do nothing" to ever appease a holy, righteous, and perfect God. Believing and receiving Jesus Christ takes care of the just and holy requirements God demands for the appeasement of my sins.

Your quote above is difficult to fully accept by many believers. I am not required, once I've become a believer in the Gospel of truth to "confess" my sins in order to be "forgiven" for my sins. Jesus has already taken care of that. That's the Good News! (1 John 1:9, is not suggesting or commanding that a believer, who has already been cleansed by the precious blood of Christ, is required to continually "confess sins" in order to be forgiven of sins and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness.) We live in such a "duty driven" and "purpose driven" society, that receiving and resting in the biblical realities, by faith, of what we have in Christ is a very difficult thing to do, to say the least.

These are some additional scriptures that come to mind as I read your essay.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
I think we all agree, do not sin. But what happens if we do?
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Thanks again for your encouragement regarding this immeasurable truth of Jesus Christ's all sufficiency and preeminence in all things. And may we, "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen" (2 Peter 3:18). :)

Brother Forest,

Thank you FYE("For Your Efification"). As I've said many times, thank God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ for what he has done for you today, for the Lord Jesus Christ is best magnified when I "stay in the background." The cross is "I" crossed out.

"According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death." Philippians 1:20

In and with Christ,

John M. Whalen

stephanos 10-28-2008 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 10269)
Thank you for sharing this, Brother John. I also think there is a "bondage" among many true believers today who are not appropriating, by faith, the realities of who and what they are in Christ!

You've addressed many "key doctrines" in your two posts. The great joy to me is that every single doctrine you've referred to is taken care of in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (forgiveness, redemption, justification, sanctification, reconciliation). I lack "nothing" and "can do nothing" to ever appease a holy, righteous, and perfect God. Believing and receiving Jesus Christ takes care of the just and holy requirements God demands for the appeasement of my sins.

Your quote above is difficult to fully accept by many believers. I am not required, once I've become a believer in the Gospel of truth to "confess" my sins in order to be "forgiven" for my sins. Jesus has already taken care of that. That's the Good News! (1 John 1:9, is not suggesting or commanding that a believer, who has already been cleansed by the precious blood of Christ, is required to continually "confess sins" in order to be forgiven of sins and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness.) We live in such a "duty driven" and "purpose driven" society, that receiving and resting in the biblical realities, by faith, of what we have in Christ is a very difficult thing to do, to say the least.

These are some additional scriptures that come to mind as I read your essay.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
I think we all agree, do not sin. But what happens if we do?
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Thanks again for your encouragement regarding this immeasurable truth of Jesus Christ's all sufficiency and preeminence in all things. And may we, "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen" (2 Peter 3:18). :)

Good stuff. Made me think of another gem within that great book of gems ^_^

Romans 8:31-39 (KJV) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Praise JESUS! I'm so glad He left us His Words.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

aussiemama 10-29-2008 06:37 AM

Is Paul Washer the idiot that yells at teens and tells them they aren't saved just because they are wearing a t-shirt he doesn't like, or some other similar thing?

MC1171611 10-29-2008 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiemama (Post 10358)
Is Paul Washer the idiot that yells at teens and tells them they aren't saved just because they are wearing a t-shirt he doesn't like, or some other similar thing?

Paul Washer is an Ray Comfort-ish Southern Baptist that preaches what approaches Lordship Salvation. While his stress on repentance is good in certain areas ("Christian" teens, dead churches), I believe that making the Gospel all about repentance is wrong. As I was telling someone last night, only 25% of the gospel is about sin (Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again), and when Paul preached on Mars' Hill in Athens, only 2 out of 9 verses included anything about sin and repentance. We have to keep things in perspective: "We preach Christ and Him crucified."

I'm afraid men like Paul Washer, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have good intentions, but make the Gospel about repentance when it's really about the Grace of God.

Luke 10-29-2008 11:25 AM

.....

George 10-29-2008 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 10177)
Amen amen amen. Paul Washer caused me to doubt my salvation for ages, because I was constantly looking at myself and judging my holiness.

His "famous" sermon, the one that is "so shocking and biblical he was never invited back" has a lot of good points in it, and it is very convicting, and I believe God has used it for some good, but there is a lot of false doctrine/works based salvation in it. I have seen Arminians/Holiness defend that sermon as being totally biblical, claiming that washer teaches you can lose your salvation (he is a calvinist, so he doesn't teach that at all, at least not in his statement of faith).

It seems to me that a bunch of self righteous hypocrites of the southern baptist/new evangelical pursuasion have claimed washer for their own. He helps to make them seem holy and teaching the truth, compared to the majority of charasmatic churches in the states.

The things he says about "easy believism" are both good and bad. No, a prayer doesn't save you, but yes, if you ask Jesus to forgive you, believing He will, then He will. Washer's idea of salvation is begging God for it, like God has His free gift, but He is only offering it to people who beg for it and grovel and do some kind of penance.

I don't know what his work is like on the mission field. He may do a lot of good, but I know that I cannot promote him, because he is a calvinist, and I find that doctrine deplorable.


Aloha brother Luke,

I appreciate your comments (Posts) and your desire to want to serve the Lord according to His word.

I know nothing about Paul Washer or his ministry, but I do apply these Biblical principals and precepts when examining anyone or their ministry.

1. Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

2. Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Now I know no one is totally "doctrinally pure" (i.e. without any error), but we all should be striving to be doctrinally pure (i.e. without "leaven") - just as we should be striving to live our life in Christ without sin.

In this age of Apostasy" it is extremely difficult to find any "famous" Christian who isn't shot-through with false teaching and doctrine, and that is why I avoid almost all of them entirely and will not recommend them to the brethren.

As you go about your service to our Lord, I highly recommend that you remember Paul's words to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

truewars 11-27-2008 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 10375)
Paul Washer is an Ray Comfort-ish Southern Baptist that preaches what approaches Lordship Salvation. . . it's really about the Grace of God.

The grace of God is not a cloak for sin and self-willed pleasure. Gal. 5:24 says, they who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. When folks stop making men their lord (and security), and if they ever come to hear the True Shepherds Voice for themselves, they will learn that Jesus tells us the grace of God is the power of God which conforms one to the image of His image (Romans 8:29). It's not just some "unmerited favor" of God, but it is the POWER of God given to those who believe He is God and a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Who flee self-love, and take refuge in the only hope there is, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. We're being born again by the living Word of God, "renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him", WHERE "Christ is all, and in all" (Col. 3:10).

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Cor. 12:3). This is our walk, in Spirit and in Truth. You shall know those who are Christ's by their fruit, the Holy Spirit will declare it. Gal. 5:19-21 clearly shows us the fruit of the flesh, and Gal. 5:22-23 show us the righteousness of God (which is not produced by those who walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit).

The faith of Abraham is that which is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:12). He believed in his heart that the Lord would bring out of his very own bowls, a holy and blameless new man. His walk with the Lord proved his faith (he lived as, and confessed that he was a stranger in the land of promise). "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And BEING FULLY PERSUADED that, what he (God) had promised, HE WAS ABLE ALSO TO PERFORM. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:20-22). He loved the Lord with all of His heart. God told Abraham, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Gen. 17:1). "And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise (Hebrews 6:15).

"he that shall endure (overcome the world, flesh, and the devil) unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mat. 24:13).

COMPARE JOHN 3:16 AND HEBREWS 5:9
-Faith and obedience work together. Take a look at Romans 8:7-8. does it say it is impossible to please God while walking after the flesh (sin, rebellion)? Again, in Hebrews 11:6 does it say that it is impossible to please God without faith?

If we can continue to walk after the flesh (sin, rebellion), than what did we ever repent of? "And they that are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24). "For if ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live (here is your salvation, you must overcome the deeds of the flesh). FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD" (Romans 8:13-14).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, AND SUCH ALIKE: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" (Galatians 5:19-21). <- - - Salvation is a walk - - - overcome these unto the end!

Now the fact that one is being saved and under grace, is the very fact that they are producing the fruits of righteousness (Gal. 5:22-23), because grace is the power of God to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29). The grace of God perfects love in us, so that we can love like Christ (posses the land). Did we just read in Gal. 5:24, those that belong to Christ no longer walk in the flesh (sin, rebellion)?

LIKE THE PHARISEES, CONGREGATIONS TODAY SET ASIDE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD FOR THEIR TRADITIONS (FALSE SECURITY), AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN!


"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness (an unclean thing - defiled), but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth (rejects) not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).

If the Lord has ALL of our heart, He gives us the grace (which is the power of God) that leads us to overcome the flesh, the world, and the devil. (IF HE DOESN'T HAVE ALL OF OUR HEART, WE'RE A ADULTERESS, AND YOU WILL NOT BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. LIKE JAMES TELLS US, HARLOTS DO NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING FROM THE LORD). No salvation (which is being saved from the wrath of God). Endure unto the end.

It is all Jesus!! Yet He asks this harlot generation today that blesses God but curses her neighbor, "why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

KJBPrincess 11-28-2008 11:02 AM

truewars, are you saying that a true Christian won't sin after he gets saved?

Luke 11-28-2008 01:48 PM

More than likely he is one of these internet evangelists that substitutes the true gospel for repentance and works and quotes nothing but Matthew 7:21-23 and James chapter 2.

He was probably originally influenced by Ray Comfort, and then found Paul Washer through one of the billion links to his "Sermon so shocking and (un)biblical he was never invited back".

Noone here has said a sinner has a license to sin. But there is a difference between being saved, and serving God. There is a difference between salvation and discipleship.

You post as if we here are all loving our sin, rolling about in it while shouting "Grace Grace, God's Grace!"

This is the impression that I get from the "forsake your sins to be saved crowd". I am pretty sure they think free-gracers love sinning and just want an excuse for it.

As I have said before, the evidence of Salvation is BELIEVING Jesus died for your sins (don't quote James 2 at me. The devils believes in one God, and it mentions nothing about the atonement in that whole chapter).

1 John 5:9-13 tells us that if we believe the RECORD that God hath given of His Son, we are born again. John 3:16 tells us how to be born again. Salvation is easy. Discipleship is hard.

I would agree with everything you have said above about how a Christian should live, but you give away your mentality in the first line.

Vince said nothing about sin or self willed pleasure (and I must ask, do you have any non-self willed sin in your life?), yet you respond as though he is saying that sin is a wonderful thing.

Is the Kingdom of God the end of our salvation?

Jesus said it was on earth IN US.
Paul said it was not meat and drink but joy, righteousness and peace in the Holy Ghost.

So if a saved person is walking in the flesh, they won't be walking in the spirit, and they won't have peace joy and righteousness in the Holy Ghost. They will be doubting, worried, anxious and chastised.

EDIT: There are several threads on eternal security in here. Perhaps you should browse through one and take your argument there?

EDIT2: You picked and choosed your verses carefully in regards to Abraham. First of all, the covenant between Abraham and God was unconditional. God was the only one that promised anything. When they cut the sacrifices to seal the deal, Abraham was set aside, and God alone moved between the covenant sacrifices. Abraham was not a part of it. Secondly, he wasn't entirely patient was he, since he tried to sort it out his own way and slept with someone who was not his wife, bringing all sorts of chaos about for Israel. Thirdly, his first reaction to God was doubt.

Forrest 11-28-2008 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truewars (Post 12223)
Now the fact that one is being saved and under grace, is the very fact that they are producing the fruits of righteousness (Gal. 5:22-23), because grace is the power of God to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29). The grace of God perfects love in us, so that we can love like Christ (posses the land). Did we just read in Gal. 5:24, those that belong to Christ no longer walk in the flesh (sin, rebellion)?

It is also important for us to understand the difference between Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 6:6. The old man [the man without Christ] is indeed crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6) and we can know this fact as a present “spiritual” reality by faith.

What I mean by “spiritual reality” is that we have not been literally or physically nailed to a cross and our flesh has not “literally” died and been buried in the grave. It’s a spiritual reality. The words “old man is crucified” are in the “aorist tense” which usually refers to the past tense and denotes something that has happened, not needing to be repeated. Praise God, Christ has finished the work of redemption once and for all. The phrase “is crucified” is also in the “passive voice” which represents the subject [the old man] as being the recipient of the action.

This does not mean, however, that the former conversation [manner of life, conduct, or behavior] is gone from your daily experiences of life. This is why we are taught that the “former conversation” of the old man must be put off [to put off or aside or away] on a daily basis.

Put off is in the “middle voice” which indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. The subject in this case is the true believer. Ephesians chapter four also admonishes to be renewed, put on, put away, sin not, let not, let no, grieve not, and let all. We obey these admonitions by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ—for the just shall live by faith.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU SIN? Remember, James 2:10 says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

So what if we sin--just ONCE after becoming a born again believer?
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
We have liberty in Christ to do what's right, and the effectual, powerful, permanent, and immeasurable grace of God is there if you don't. This is not a divine permission slip to sin. But it's important to understand there is a Biblical difference between "positional" grace and "operational" grace.

truewars 11-28-2008 05:49 PM

The Word of God speaks for itself Luke, Jesus is the source. Jesus is all I posted, if something is jumping up and down inside any of you by what I posted, that's called a strong-hold (unless your rebellious, their might be something else in their jumping up). When we hear any part of the Word of God that doesn't fit in our doctrine, that strong-hold comes up to defend what we know. Another words, we're really saying that have "all the light", and so the ears are uncircumcised to hear any truth that doesn't fit in our structure (which has our heart). If we love the Truth, we will let the Word of God tear down any strong-holds we may have received. Or, we'll do what the Pharisees did who couldn't hear the words of Jesus, because their traditions (a form of godliness) had their heart. God didn't have their heart or they could "hear" the words of God. Jesus said these guys wanted to do the lusts of their father.

Brethren DO NOT walk after the lust of the flesh, if they are they are not brethren. You will know them by their fruit (pride, greed, anger, etc). "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8). "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" (1 John 3:9). "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world (lawlessness), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in (inside) the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Ephesians 2:2-3).

This is why the church is a dwelling place of demons today. The crowd runs to the devil, they don't run to Jesus. --John 3:20-21

There are many questions regarding what I posted, and many of the questions are just defending sin. If we choose to hold on to any sin, we're being stubborn and rebellious to God. This isn't loving the Lord with all of our heart. 1 Samuel 15:23 says “stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry”. Any sin that we will not give up and put under the Blood of Jesus, is an idol (another ref: Col. 3:5-6). If we choose to hold on to any sin we make ourself a enemy of God (james 4:4). Enemies of God do not go to heaven (Mat. 7:21). The Lord says we must deny our self, and take up our cross (to crucify these lusts), and not let them conceive (Mat. 16:24-25), if it conceives it brings death (Jam. 1:15). Again, the wages of sin is going to be death (Romans 6:23).

If we sin, we have a place to put our sin. Under the Blood of Jesus Christ, but not when you know better and go on in your sin and rebellion against God! There will be no place to put your sins, and you will die in them. It time for the church to wake-up and seek the Lord. And learn the fear of God. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses (a man went to collect wood on the sabbath and God said stone him to death): Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:26-30).

The Rich young ruler chose to hold on to greed. And UNLESS he repented later on, and he denied himself, took up his cross and followed Jesus he is in hell today. Which is where many who are calling themselves Christians are heading, unless they repent and get back to the First Love. To be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6)

The wrath of God is on the rebellious, and it's eating them away like a moth and yet they don't even know it. The church today does not understand the judgment of God. "Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!" (Psalms 107:10-12, 17, 21).

MC1171611 11-28-2008 07:01 PM

Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

truewars 11-28-2008 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 12263)
Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Paul here was demonstrating a lost person still dead in sin, and without Christ. But than, Paul writes: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord (He is thanking Jesus for giving him a place to put his sins, and NOW giving him of His Spirit to overcome sin through being led by the Spirit). So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:24-25). "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Romans 2:13). "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:9-10).

HEBREWS 5:9

You harlots call obedience to God works because you're lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. You start drawing near to God and He'll draw near to you, "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded (harlot)". Stop agreeing with the devil and start agreeing with God, not with your lips but with your heart. Start crying "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

The sacrifices and rituals where done away with in Christ, but the law of God remains. You who tamper with the law, tamper with that which defines the very image of the divine nature of God (the image of Jesus Christ). That is antiChrist! You cannot separate that law from the divine nature which defines the image of Christ Jesus. Jesus as he fulfilled the law of God, became the very express image of God (Heb. 1:3). He loved the Lord with all of His heart, mind, soul, and strength. When you do this, supernaturally you become something you are not. This is the true Grace of God, working in you. Giving you power over sin. Sin, separates you from God. When you are in covenant with Christ, the Lord writes His law upon your heart and mind.

Mark 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

MC1171611 11-28-2008 07:48 PM

Wonderboy shows up and immediately starts calling people names. Typical.

I'm not usually one for banning people, but he seems to be in the top 10% of idiots, so I'd vote to give him the boot. He obviously isn't here to discuss anything or to provide Biblical edification. He just wants to scream and shout and pound his widdle fists on the ground.

Diligent 11-28-2008 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truewars (Post 12271)
You harlots

Well, that's enough of that. Take your false gospel elsewhere.

stephanos 11-28-2008 08:39 PM

Wow :eek: I haven't seen that since I've been here. I bet he's really battling sin in his own life. I know I tend to get very grouchy and defensive when I'm warring against the flesh myself. It's too bad this guy hasn't learned to extend mercy and forgiveness towards others (especially we who believe in the gospel of God's Grace) in the like manner that Christ did towards him.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

tkg 11-28-2008 08:39 PM

Paul has been an interesting subject in my fellowship, we have a few people who you could say are borderline obsessed with his sermons. But take a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERIXg...eature=related
From what I understand from what Paul is saying is that works come out of a true salvation. That your works are your evidence of your true conversion.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Just my 2 cents.

Luke 11-28-2008 09:29 PM

But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

tkg 11-28-2008 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 12277)
But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

Luke 11-28-2008 11:20 PM

Oh okay :) Thanks for clarifying

As for Mr Washer's view of Salvation, I would be wary about agreeing with him. While he claims it is by grace through faith, he is extremely reformed in doctrine.

He believes God regenerates a man before that man has faith in God (effectively saving the man before he even believes on Christ). A woman comes to him asking how to be saved and he tells her to beg God for salvation, and don't stop begging God until he gives it to her, and she can either beg until God saves her, or she can give up and go to hell. Similarly another man asks him how to be saved but says he believes the gospel and understands it but doesn't feel anything change in him, and he says the same thing to that man.

His view is very skewed - it seems to me that he fears for his own salvation, or that he believes God doesn't really want to save anyone, and needs convincing before He will.

JMWHALEN 11-29-2008 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkg (Post 12279)
Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Forrest 11-29-2008 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truewars (Post 12271)
Start crying "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

I have discovered THE answer, and I hope you can.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your flesh will never be good. Stop trying to sanctify it.

YOU REMIND ME OF SOME OTHERS I'VE READ ABOUT...
Matthew 23:24-28 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Amazing grace...how sweet the sound!

tkg 11-29-2008 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN (Post 12283)
______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy

JMWHALEN 11-30-2008 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkg (Post 12295)
Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy

___
Timothy,


See http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....0180#post10180
post #3 and #4.


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

tkg 11-30-2008 09:45 PM

Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy

Luke 12-01-2008 02:19 AM

Lordship Salvation, to give a simple definition - it puts the evidence of salvation as a prerequisite. In order to be saved, a sinner must repent of sins and forsake them etc, make a committment to serve God, live after Christ etc, and all of this is supposed to happen BEFORE a man gets saved. It's another gospel that is not another. Brother, I don't think you are guilty of it, because expecting holiness from a Christian is not Lordship Salvation, but you cannot demand holiness as a requirement for salvation.

MC1171611 12-01-2008 07:04 AM

What most people don't understand is that while the Born Again Christian is a new creature, the old creature is only dead in trespasses and sins: the OLD MAN still remains. As Paul spoke of many times, even he struggled with sin and wickedness in his flesh. It was not a sign of an unregenerate person: it is proof that every Christian has TWO natures, the nature of Adam, or a sinful, wicked nature, and the mind and heart of Christ, which is the New Man.

The only thing that really changes at Salvation is the regeneration of our souls and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside of us. Yes, He will lead us into all truth, but we aren't forced into following! A saved person is capable of anything and everything that a lost man is capable of; the difference between us and them is that we have the Holy Spirit of God in us, and we are commanded not to quench the Spirit. If we can quench the spirit, then obviously we are able to sin.

People take the Epistles of John and try to apply them doctrinally to us today; this is fallacy since they are located in the books written to the Tribulation saints, to whom also are written the Gospels (Gospel of the Kingdom, etc.). Most "Lordship Salvation" preachers use Matthew ("endure to the end") and Hebrews through Jude to peach that people who live in sin aren't saved. This simply isn't the case. It is true that many people who don't exhibit a change after salvation truly aren't saved, but I know of people that got truly born again and either backslid or never "got in." They show no fruit, and they'll have absolutely no rewards in Heaven, but they're just as saved as you or I.

JMWHALEN 12-01-2008 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkg (Post 12295)
Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy

________________________
(underline/bold my emphasis)

"I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them."-tkg

My comment: Then why do you continue to make an assessment/judgment as to one's justification, based on their "walk", their "work", their "service", their "change", their "fruit", "closeness"....?, as follows:



“I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world….”-tkg

My comment:

I ask again, define how much of a "walk"? This is a rhetorical question. You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. You are basing justification on the subjective assessment of one's "walk", vs. the objective work of the Lord Jesus Christ. All Christians "walk in the ways of the world"-it is just a matter degree. Are you justified? Do you always avoid "walking in the ways of the world?" Remember, the objective standard , the "bar", if you will, is the walk of the Saviour, the service of the Saviour, the only person ever to walk this earth that fulfilled this stringent requirement, gave Himself "100%" unreservedly to be used of His Father for His glory,who gave Himself "100%" in His walk, His service, in the sight of men and God the Father, who gave "100%" of His will in submission to the will of God the Father,when He humbled himself and allowed the Father to work in Him and through Him for 33 years on earth of service. You error is that you have the wrong standard, judging your/others "walk", "service".....in comparison with each other, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ as the standard. And the LORD God has declared all of us as "guilty" in "falling short"(Romans 3:19-23) of the standard set forth by this great Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. And hence-the cross.

Again, I ask, are you justified? Do you always avoid "walking in the ways of the world?"If you do not, then, again, define how much of "walking in the ways of the world" would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lifes are at stake.

“If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.?”-tkg

My comment:

I ask again, define how much "working for him", how much "doing his will", how much "growth in your walk"(sanctification), how much "serving him", how much "change"? This is a rhetorical question. You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. You are basing justification on the subjective assessment of one's "walk", vs. the objective work of the Lord Jesus Christ. All Christians "fall short"(Romans 3:19-23) in their "working for him", in their "doing his will", in their "growth in their walk", in their "service", in their "change"- is just a matter degree. Are you justified? Do you always , "work for him", "do his will", "grow", "change"? Per the preceding, the Lord Jesus Christ is the "100% standard by which you must make this assessment of others, and yourself. How do you "measure" up?(again, rhetorical question-you and I and everyone fall short="miss the mark") If you do not, then, again, define how much "growth in your walk"(sanctification), how much "serving him", how much "lack of change",would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lives are at stake.


“Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.”-tkg

My comment:

“Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?)...

This is a nonsensical statement, for any "fruit"("their should be fruit","fruitless"), by definition, requires a minimum of at least "one fruit", if you will. Again, how much fruit? Again, per the preceding, you confuse Sanctification(fruit),with Justification, and the wrong standard upon which to make this assessment/judgment, comparing "fruit" of yourself to others, and vica versa, instead of the standard of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"from a willingness to be moving towards God. "

Again, how much "willingness"? Again, per the preceding, you confuse Sanctification(fruit),with Justification, and the wrong standard upon which to make this assessment/judgment, comparing your "willingness" to others, and vica versa, instead of the standard of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ was the only person ever to walk this evil world(Gal. 1:4), that "100%" loved the LORD thy God with all His heart, and with all His soul, and with all His might, and to have to walked "in all his ways", to have walked "ever in his ways"(Deut. 6:5, 10:12. 11:1, 19:9,30:6; Mt. 22:37; Mark 12:30;Luke 10:27) and was "100% willing" to be used by His Father for His Father's glory:

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." John 4:34

The Lord Jesus Christ's joy was knowing that he was finishing the work His Father had given Him-he delighted in doing His Father's will(Psalms 40:8,Matthew 26:39, Hebrews 10:7), all for the glory of God. It was not just His duty, His obligation- it was His food, His delight, to do the work His Father had given Him-and that work was to glorify His heavenly Father. And He accomplished it with a "100% passing grade." Everyone else-you, me, everyone-falls short(Riomans 3:19-23).




"that "you can tell?" –John W

“What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.” –tkg

My comment: No, my point was reacting to your "argument", your assertion:

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."-tkg

Your "argument" is based onyour subjective assessment("the only way I can tell") of someone's Sanctification ("their fruit"), instead of God the Father's acceptance of the objective work of His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, based on your "argument"(not mine), how much "fruit" do we have to see? See again my previous comments within this response/post.



“I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.”-tkg

My comment:You continue to confuse Sanctification with Justification. On one hand, you state“I never once said that your works justify you before God..", and then, "in the same breath", assess/judge whether one is "justified/saved", "I will know if they are saved or not", by calling for evidence of said justification/salvation by examining , by "see(ing) their faith through their works"-you again confirm your "the only way I can tell this is through their fruit" mindset.

Again, how many "works"?You error is that you have the wrong standard, judging your/others "works" in comparison with each other, instead of the Lord Jesus Christ as the standard. And the LORD God has declared all of us as "guilty" in "falling short"(Romans 3:19-23) of the standard set forth by this great Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ. And hence-the cross.

Again, I ask, are you justified? Do you always "work"? Define how many "works" are needed to be justified, and what minimum "threshold", "bar", would you have to "fall short", that would nullify your justification? This is your argument, not mine. So, be specific-eternal lifes are at stake.


And hence, the reason for my previous post:
__________________________________________________
Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."-tkg

"truly saved" (my reiterating your statement)

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk." -John W

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."(my reiterating your statement)

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?" -John W

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."(my reiterating your statement)

This is sanctification, not justification. -John W

"trying" (my reiterating your statement)

How much "trying"? -John W


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."(my reiterating your statement)


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.-John W


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "(my reiterating your statement)

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.-John W
______________________________________

And finally:

"...their will be a change in you."-tkg


"As long as an unbeliever can be a strong person and give up something, like whiskey, and women, or whatever it is that bugs and confuses Christians, anything that an unbeliever can do is not Christianity. If you can get that principle in your mind, and think about it, anything that an unbeliever can do is not Christianity. Unbelievers give this up. Unbelievers give that up. Unbelievers don't do that. That's not Christianity. Any unbeliever can do these things. They can give up things. What does it prove when someone gives up something? Not a thing. But when someone believes in Christ, God does many things for that person. And He, God, can take some mangy person and make him a new creature in Christ." -Buddy Dano, Divine Viewpoint Bible Studies

A health club, psychic hotline, dating service, "religion"(Judais, Islam, Hinduism.......) etc. can change lives, can bring about "a change in you",but that does not make it Christian!





In Christ,

John M. Whalen

JMWHALEN 12-01-2008 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkg (Post 12351)
Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy

_____--

See my other post/response along the same lines.

".. and there is some evidence of that."-tkg

Again,how much evidence? The question "evidences" not understanding the finality of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the subjective result of justification=your sanctification/your walk/your service, but not the basis of your justification. You show/demonstrate/display your "evidence" because you are a son, not to become a son. Again, "some evidence" focuses on you, and your comparison of your walk in service to others=wrong standard", and not the objective, "100%" standard of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His work at Calvary, and resurrection(1 Cor 15:1-4).


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

tkg 12-01-2008 11:55 AM

Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy

Luke 12-01-2008 12:04 PM

Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.

tkg 12-01-2008 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 12381)
Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.

I didnt mean street witnessing persay, Im meaning more in a church situation. Where as not everyone who goes to a church is saved. So its more of someone you know, than a complete stranger.

JMWHALEN 12-01-2008 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkg (Post 12380)
Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy

Your welcome. Consider the "good news", the gospel of Christ as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

1. News, by definition, is that which has already happened.
2. If there is "good news", then there has to be some "bad news. And thus, Romans chapter 3(and others!)= we all fall short of our Holy(the # one attribute of the LORD God in the Holy Bible)LORD God's righteous standards=bad news for sinners!
3. And hence, the need for a Saviour(saved=to be delivered from a danger), to be delivered from a danger,"the wages of sin...death", and the " bad news"!!!!!!

4. The good news!!!!!!The Lord Jesus Christ, and what He did!!!!!!


Is that not good news!

In christ,

John M. Whalen


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