Are you a Dispensationalist?
 

Just trying to get the lay of the land...

So where do you fall into hermeneutical and theological systems?

I can't say I am committed fully to either despensation, or covenant theologies. :)

Right now I'm using Apple's OS 10.5.3 a.k.a. "Leopard." :)

Yes

...


End of thread I guess :P



I like how Chafer differentiates between Covenant theology and Dispensationalism

"As traced by Covenant theologians, the death of Christ is given a place of large significance but His resurrection is accounted as little more than something for His own personal convenience, His necessary return from the sphere of death back to the place which He occupied before. In other words, as viewed by Covenant theologians, there is practically no doctrinal significance to Christ's resurrection [and me identified with Him!] "
I would go on to add that while Covenant theologists make a big deal of being In Christ "before the foundation of the world", they neglect the fact that we are In Christ right now, and that the law has no power over a believer.

Chafer also wrote

"Covenantism, which has molded the major theological concepts for many generations, recognizes no distinction as to ages, therefore can allow for no distinctions between law and grace. This dominating attitude of Covenantism must account for the utter neglect of life-truth in all their works of theology.

No more representative theological dictum from the Covenant viewpoint has been formed than the Westminster Confession of Faith, which valuable and important document recognizes life-truth only to the point of imposing the Ten Commandments on Christians as their sole obligation, this in spite of the teachings of the Pauline Church Epistles which assert that the law was never given to Gentiles or Christians, and that the latter has been saved and delivered from it--actually dead to it (Gal. 2:19) "

For practical theology, exigesis, and practice I am a Pauline Dispensationalist based on Ephesians 3:

Times Past: Genesis- Acts 28
But Now: Romans-Philemon
Ages To Come: Hebrews-Revelation

Within the But Now Age I rightly divide Paul into

Early Paul - "To the Jew first..." Acts 9- Acts 28
Mid Paul - But Now, "...neither Jew nor Gentile..." Acts Chapter 29
Late Paul - Ages To Come, wise masterbuilder who was the custodian who administered the transition from Gospel Of The Kingdom Of Heaven(Restored Isreal) which is the gospel committed to Peter, James, John, and the rest of the Twelve, into the Grace Age of today and on into the Tribulation, as Paul authored Hebrews, the first book of Tribulation doctrine, and was the most qualified to write it as a human oracle.

I don't follow Bullinger in the teaching that the Body began at Acts 28 and only Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians are applicable, but believe and teach that the Body began at Calvary, that we were grafted into the Body that was made manifest at Acts 2 that was scattered at Acts 7 and that water baptism, tongues, signs, wonders, miracles, healings, AKA "the signs of an apostle" ceased at the end of Acts 28.

I feel the dispensational teachings of Larken and Scofield are a very general guide and accept up to a point the teachings of Cornelius Stam of the Berean Bible Society yet I stop at his Calvinism, his reliance on multiple Bible versions and denial of the inspiration of vernacular translations, and his seeming crusade to uproot Baptist churches rather than applying doctrine, reproof, correction to the misapplied practice of OT Jewish water baptism.

The dispensational teachings and positions of Baker, Darby, and the Plymouth Brethren are unknown to me.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Just an FYI, if you are interested, your copy of SwordSearcher includes material that would fall under that heading by Darby, Morrish, and Mackintosh.

Thank you for the heads up Brandon, I got my Darbys mixed up, and will delve into the books a little closer, right now it's all been the text of the KJV, I checked the maps out, this program rocks brother:)

Grace and peace

tony

Brother are you saying you reject the General Epistles as authoritative for the Church?

authoritative, no.. doctrinal, yes, devotional, no, spiritual, no.

Brother, I don;t "reject" anything. I will fight for the canonicity of Hebrews and I Peter as fervently as I will defend I Timothy 3:16 in the KJV.

These two books are just not written to me, they are God's program for the future, just as Leviticus was for Times Past.

Hebrews through Revelation is tribulation doctrine. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, such as the OT understanding of Christ's High Priesthood with relation to Israel and John the Baptist found in Hebrews that we will soon be discussing in the water baptism thread and the doctrines of Christ's ministry to Israel and Deity as found in the Four Gospels are examples, but my instructions are through Paul in Romans through Philemon. Peter, James, and John are NOT my apostles. What God is doing today is found in Paul's works and the contrasts can be better understood by getting out of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and getting into Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians:

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Ane example of the contrasts between Paul's ministry and the ministry of the Twelve under Peter is found in the blotting out of sins:

Israel's sins will not be blotted out until the beginning of the Millenium:

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Your and my sins are forgiven now:

Ro 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Tandy, 25 years ago I was a saved man who was afraid of the Bible, I didn't understand it. It took Pastor Richard Jordan 30 minutes to show me what God did yesterday, what He is doing today, what He will do in the future. In those 25, almost 26 years, I have not had one single doubt about the Bible.

I'm certainly not the apostle Paul, but I understand the man. If ever there was a good candidate for the anti-Christ outside of Judas Iscariot, it was Paul. 25 years ago I was dispensational teaching's worst enemy, as Paul was to Christianity. What changed my heart about dispensational teaching is that God is the Author of it, not Darby, Stam, nor Bullinger.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

I'm a dispensationalist in the Ruckman/David Walker sense. I really enjoy Cornelius Stam's Acts commentaries, what little I have read of them. I'd like to study them further when I'm not beat down with school.

Brother your entire dispensational teaching is based on a false doctrine that men in the Old Testament were saved by keeping the law. The whole house of cards falls apart by simply believing the word of God instead of men.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Paul said that men under the law and before were justified without works. It was by faith. That is not open for negotiation. You either believe it or you don't. A man can wave a King James Bible above his head and shout anything he wishes but if he contradicts clear doctrine he is still wrong.

The nonsense that Hebrews through Revelation teaches a works salvation is twisting the scriptures like a corkscrew. Paul's main ministry was to the Gentiles while Peter's ministry was to the Jews. Peter preached the same gospel as Paul.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

IS HEBREWS A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

In Hebrews 2:3,4 we have a dispensational UNITY and CONTINUITY concerning the PLAN OF SALVATION, from the gospels to the book of Acts to the book of Hebrews. Moreover, in Hebrews we find ETERNAL SECURITY (7:25); a NEW COVENANT (10:9); the ONE SACRIFICE as opposed to animal sacrifices (10:8-12), JESUS, the Author and Finisher of OUR FAITH (12:2); Jesus, MEDIATOR of the NEW COVENANT (Heb 12:24); GRACE (13:9); the new covenant SACRIFICE OF PRAISE (13:15).

Do you think Paul really expected to be with the Tribulational saints shortly or do you really believe that Paul asked the TRIBULATION SAINTS TO PRAY for him (13:18,23)?

IS A JAMES A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

The 12 tribes scattered abroad, to whom this Epistle was written, were BEGOTTEN with the WORD (James 1:18); were BELOVED BRETHREN who were the FIRSTFRUITS OF HIS CREATURES (1:18,19); were told that the WORD SAVES THE SOUL – not works (1:21); were shown the FUTILITY of KEEPING the LAW for SALVATION (2:10); were able to cause the DEVIL TO FLEE (4:7 – let the Tribulation saints try this one); were benefactors of GRACE (4:6). Paul IMPLIED works (Acts 26:19,20).

IS 1 PETER A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

Note the greeting of GRACE and multiplied peace (1:2) to these scattered strangers. Notice also that these scattered strangers were BEGOTTEN by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1:3) and redeemed by only the precious BLOOD OF CHRIST (1:18,19); and BORN AGAIN (1:23); trusting in the events of the CROSS (2:24); and standing in the TRUE GRACE of God (5:12). They were capable of suffering as CHRISTIANS (4:16); and were in Christ Jesus (5:14) and were ETERNALLY SECURE in anticipation of the last time (1:5); (Cf 1:9,20; 2:9,11; 4:3). Certainly this book will provide comfort to Israel in the Tribulation.

IS 2 PETER A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

This book is addressed to those who have Peter's like precious faith (1:1). Notice the GRACE, even MULTIPLIED GRACE of 1:2 and these saints were partakers of the DIVINE NATURE (1:4). Note that Peter connects the SALVATION of his Epistles with that of PAUL'S epistles (3:15).

IS 1 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

The BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST CLEANSETH from all SIN (1:7); simple CONFESSION of sin is sufficient for FORGIVENESS (1:9); John taught the NEW BIRTH (1 John 3:14). John encouraged his readers to look forward to the RAPTURE and RESURRECTION (3:1-3). Christ is the Saviour of the WORLD (4:14). SIMPLY CONFESSING the SON OF GOD was sufficient for right relationship to God and BELIEVING that Jesus is the Christ, brought about the NEW BIRTH (4:15; 5:1). ETERNAL LIFE was received only through the SON (5:10-13).

IS 2 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

John FOUND (past tense) the elect lady's children walking in the truth (v.4). He was speaking about folk that existed THEN rather than future tribulation saints that DID NOT yet exist.

Do you think such a tribulation could have a sister in John's time, that could send her a greeting by John (v.13). Note the doctrine CHRIST and GRACE (V. 3,9).

IS 3 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

John speaks of the BRETHERN and the children of Gaius in the PAST TENSE (v.3,4). Could they be tribulation saints? How could John expect to deal with Diotrephes when he came, if Diotrephes was a tribulation saint (v.9,10) How could John expect to see Gaius SHORTLY and how could Gaius greet, mutual friends BY NAME, for John - if they were tribulation saints(v.1,14)?

IS JUDE A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

Jude preached PRESEVERATION in JESUS CHRIST; ETERNAL SECURITY (Jude 1,24); MULTIPLIED MERCY (v.2); and the common SALVATION (v.3).

Are you a Dispensationalist?
 

I basically agree with tonybones2112. With his earlier post on what has been written to and for us.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith but by faith in what is the key question.

Salvation has always been based by grace and faith in what God has said. What He said to the tribe of Israel in the wilderness is not what He says to me today.

Same with the Gospels and the tribulational books.

That is why you see so many bending and twisting like a pretzel to explain Hebrews 6 and eternal security

I do not understand what is so confusing about this, the confusion and the need for a formal Bible education comes from applying what was written to one group and applying it to another.

Hebrews to Jude looks like "general" epistles, and they have "church words" in them.

A little more closer look, and one will find that:

The letter to the HEBREWS teaches holding on to the end to be saved.
JAMES writes to the twelve tribes and requires works added to faith for justification.
PETER writes to the Jewish strangers scattered in Gentile countries about grace, faith, and salvation that are yet to be revealed and brought at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
JOHN's epistles are more general, but he also writes salvation being conditioned upon walking in the light and loving the brethren.
JUDE talks about the "common salvation" spoken by the Lord before the cross, which is quite different from "your salvation" according to Paul's gospel, which is a mystery not revealed before.

Words like "faith", "grace", "salvation", "elect", "church", "coming", "last days", "justified", "sanctified", etc. etc. -- they all look the same, sound the same, spell the same -- but it is a fact in the English language and in Bible interpretation that they do not always mean the same.

A simple example: "house" Does it always mean "building"?:confused:

As I've said all scripture is profitable, rightly divided. I preach and teach through the Bible every year. I receive a lot of spiritual blessings even from Leviticus 11.

Refusal to "rightly divide" results in improper mixing. "Halo-halo" is a nice summer treat, but poor hermeneutics.

I at this time place Hebrews - Jude as transitional from church age to Tribulational. seeing that it has doctrines for both church and Israel in Tribulation.

I'm a Christian.

Without any preservatives or artificial flavors.

If I'm going to Glory in anything, I will Glory in that I am a Christian and that I know my God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

Amen!

Bro Jerry, you are quite right. I am a Christian and I am a Believer, but not only that I am a Baptist too.:)

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Brother, we are in agreement that yes, they are Tribulation doctrine, and clearly Peter and James writes to the Tribulation church in general while John writes specifically to the 144,000 in my view, but I see nothing transitional as the Rapture of the Church is not transitional but instantaneous. It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

When you say the Rapture will "initiate the Tribulation" do you mean that it will begin the Trib? Like, trumpet blast and shout and translation of saints and boom the countdown of 7 years begins? Do you have a passage in mind that supports that? I often hear people say that but mostly b/c they suppose it to be true b/c the Rapture is Pre-Trib.

Also, when you say the "Tribulation church" are you referring to saints in the Trib? Or are you referring to another "church"? Or even an extension of the Raptured Church?

Just want to nail down you views before I start disputing some of your claims.

It makes for a lot of contetion, but we just need to remember our fellow soldiers may not be as dispensational as us, so let eveything be done to edification.

Grace and peace

Tony

"It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation."

Brother Tony, is your view that the Rapture will cause and initiate the tribulation based on the belief that the Tribulation must start when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth or do you have other scriptural reasons, as well?

Jennifer

Tim, the Tribulation will have several elements to it, 2 of which are supernatural in nature while 4 will be "man-made":

1. Rapture of the Church: Supernatural in nature. 1/10 the living and 1/10 the dead will go in the Rapture. The sudden disappearance of 1/10 of 6 to 15 billion people(based on the time yet and population of the planet)will doubtlessly lead to the next 4 developments:
2. Social upheaval
3. Religious upheaval
4. Political upheaval
5. Economic upheaval
6. The pouring out onto the whole earth the Ten Plagues poured out on Egypt. The second supernatural occurrence.

John the Baptist and Jesus Christ's earthly ministries to Isaael were to, as Roman's 15:8 says, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers(Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) in fulfillment of:

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Even with the death of John the Baptist, the execution and resurrection of Christ, the kingdom of heaven message went forth through the Twelve Apostles with the continued consecration(water baptism, the Levitical washing of Lev 8)and then the sanctification with the Holy Spirit(in place of the oil, a type of the Holy Spirit), they went forth fulfilling this commandment to make a kingdom of priests of the whole nation of Israel, the point I am trying to show in the water baptism thread. If Peter were a member of this forum, there would be no water baptism thread, he would clear the matter in a heartbeat as he does in these two Scriptures:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

So far, so good. Up to the stoning of Stephen we have the Messianic-Apostolic Church led by Peter and ministered to by Peter, James, and John. Stephen is killed and national Israel falls. Up to this time, as Paul states in Romans 11, the Gentiles are exalted by blessing Israel and Israel's rise. Paul is called out to minister the grace of God to the Gentiles(and Jews) apart from the works of the law and apart from prophecy. The Body of Christ made of Gentiles and Jews co-equal was hid in God from all the ages. What we were grafted onto is not fallen national Israel but this Messianic-Apostolic Church of Peter, James, and John. We have been exalted through their fall, that is the mystery and now there is no difference between us.

Cometh the Rapture...

1/10 the living(the Body), 1/10 the dead(the Body). In Israel are 7000 who have not "bowed the knee to Baal", these 7000 teach or form the core of the 144,000, the "Tribulation saints", who convert people worldwide under the "Great Commission" Christ gave, with signs and wonders following, per Mark 16.

The program that stopped at Acts 7 begins again, Peter was preaching Tribulation is coming in Acts 2 per Joel 2. We are NOW in a parenthetical age, the "Church Age", "the Pauline Dispensation Of Grace", "The Grace Age", whatever you want to call it.

Does that answer your initial questions or do I need to clarify?

Tim, I don't have any inquiries as to your motives for being in this forum, you are here and a member like me. As long as it's done decently, in order, to edification and without hard feelings and emotional discombobulations, feel free to dispute my teaching here all you want,

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Sister, I don;t mean to sound pedantic, the Holy Spirit, in the manner that He indwells us will go with us, but He will not be taken out of the earth any more than He was still here in the OT before and during the law. He will indwell people as He did in the OT but He will also leave if the works pointed out by Paul in Hebrews, by James, and John in his 3 little letters and Revelation are not performed. That's the point the people in this thread and most in the forum proper can't get or won't get, those who can't get the deep Pauline dispensational teaching. I'm making a point on this becasue they taught us in the Church Of Christ that because the sign gifts are not operative today the Holy Ghost is not in the "world" today. There is nowhere in the 3 heavens and one earth the Holy Spirit isn't. He just won't indwell in the same manner in the Tribulation, He can leave. Just as in the OT.

Judas performed the same miracles as the other 12 and lost Him. Saul had Him and lost Him. Samson had Him, lost Him, and then got Him back. David had Him and was terrified he would lose Him.

Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

To the main body of your question, people say to me, will the Rapture precede the tribulation? As sure as night follows day, the Rapture will cause the Tribulation. When it's God's time, not ours, He will take the Church out. Millions of cars, planes, boats, no pilots, no drivers, Look at the economic impact 9/11 and the Towers being destroyed had, those were 3000 people. What happens when it's millions?

God will send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. What if we go up as the flying saucers are coming down, and the world is told we were the evil of the world and now the space brothers did the world a favor?

Those four major man-made upheavals I cited to Tim, recovering from those will give rise to the position of the anti-Christ.

Jen, how many Catholics will be Raptured and how many left? Very few and a whole lot. They will side with Islam against Israel and that is when the 10 Plagues of Egypt will be repeated on a planetary scale because of the world's persecution of believing Israel, just as the Egyptians did.

History always repeats itself.

That's why I say, not only will the rapture be before the Tribulation, think of millions just disappearing in a nanosecond, it will be caused by the Rapture.

I hope this helps and enjoy talking with you:)

Grace and peace

Tony

Strictly covenantal.

AMR

Clarify please Mr. R.

Grace and peace

Tony

Covenant Theology I believe.

Exactly!

AMR

That the present Body of Christ is the new "Israel"?

Grace and peace

Tony

That depends on the extent of coventalism he takes. You can be a covenant premill and not look at the Church as a new/spiritual Israel. They just abuse OT Scripture interpreting it as ecclesiological instead of Isrealological (no I didn't make up the word :D). Or he could be covenant Amill and believe the Church replaced Israel, is the new/spiritual Israel, or simply post-cross Israel (i.e. Church in the OT). No matter what, there is always a blurring between the Church and Israel.

I am amill and lean towards partial preterism.

AMR

If you don't mind me asking, but I have never met an Amill KJVO. Would you characterize your Bibliology as such?

I would not classify myself as KJVO. I have been studying the matter for a few months and continue to do so.

AMR

Well Mr R, I am sure you and I have similar beliefs and differences, if no one has said so far, I'd like to welcome you to the group.

Grace and peace

Tony