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evstevemd 02-26-2008 12:57 PM

How Versions Distorts Prophecy?
 
Hello good people,
Praise King Jesus!
As per Bible versions and PERvesions
There have been different points of view
I will pinpoint few examples but keys to
Bible prophecy!Very vital parts of prophecy
Let me say a little here!!
There cant be many controversing doctrine from the same God I know,who isn't author of confusion!!! So believe or not;in these theories Devil have his hand on two of each theories and God only one!:mad:

1. Catching Away(Rapture if you want):confused:
a. Pre-Tribulation
b.Mid-Tribulation
c.Post-Tribulation

2. Millennium reign:confused:
a. Amillenianism
b.Pre-Millenianism
c.Post-Milenianism


QUESTION:How Bible versions distorts Bible prophecy?:eek:

cpmac 03-07-2008 05:23 PM

Evstevemd:
We might all be surprised to learn that the Rapture has already happened. So also the Great Tribulation. In fact two tribulations. The first may have lasted nearly forty years, and was intended for the Jews who professed faith in Christ. It was a time of purifying, of weeding out the fake believers, It was called the Baptism of Fire. Those who endured to the end of this tribulation were saved; they were raptured. Those who didn't make it, who fell away, were blinded and went into the second, the great tribulation (Rome-Israel war). At about the same time Old Israelites were resurrected and taken into heaven, to be ruled and reigned over by Christ and His apostles, at least throughout the Church Age.

All Jews are in heaven at this time, in the New Jerusalem. All these things happened around AD70, give or take a few years. There are no Jews on earth today who can call themselves God's specially favored. He took away their Jewish status earlier by concluding them all (Jews) in unbelief (Romans 11:32). The "Jews" we have today are really Pseudo-Jews, deceived as much by dispensational futurists and the like as by themselves. To try to be a Jew today means that one must try to live by the Law. But no one can keep the Law perfectly. And the Law actually ended in the days of John the Baptist. And sacrifices and oblations ended on the cross. So the wannabe Jew who rejects Christ has no where to turn to have his sins forgiven, and thus may be lost. (perhaps God has special provisions for the deluded masses, which would be great, but I, for one, don't see any of that in the Scriptures.) Those who try to live by the Law today are actually under the curse. Galatians 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Christians who almost worship the state of the Jews and Judaism today ought to switch to the KJV, re-learn it, and start preaching the truth. Biblically speaking, the world has only Gentiles, saved and unsaved.

cpmac
www.tribulatioinhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

Brother Mike 03-07-2008 05:41 PM

:confused: UH-HUH :confused:

fundy 03-08-2008 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 1439)
Evstevemd:
We might all be surprised to learn that the Rapture has already happened. So also the Great Tribulation. In fact two tribulations. The first may have lasted nearly forty years, and was intended for the Jews who professed faith in Christ. It was a time of purifying, of weeding out the fake believers, It was called the Baptism of Fire. Those who endured to the end of this tribulation were saved; they were raptured. Those who didn't make it, who fell away, were blinded and went into the second, the great tribulation (Rome-Israel war). At about the same time Old Israelites were resurrected and taken into heaven, to be ruled and reigned over by Christ and His apostles, at least throughout the Church Age.

All Jews are in heaven at this time, in the New Jerusalem. All these things happened around AD70, give or take a few years. There are no Jews on earth today who can call themselves God's specially favored. He took away their Jewish status earlier by concluding them all (Jews) in unbelief (Romans 11:32). The "Jews" we have today are really Pseudo-Jews, deceived as much by dispensational futurists and the like as by themselves. To try to be a Jew today means that one must try to live by the Law. But no one can keep the Law perfectly. And the Law actually ended in the days of John the Baptist. And sacrifices and oblations ended on the cross. So the wannabe Jew who rejects Christ has no where to turn to have his sins forgiven, and thus may be lost. (perhaps God has special provisions for the deluded masses, which would be great, but I, for one, don't see any of that in the Scriptures.) Those who try to live by the Law today are actually under the curse. Galatians 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Christians who almost worship the state of the Jews and Judaism today ought to switch to the KJV, re-learn it, and start preaching the truth. Biblically speaking, the world has only Gentiles, saved and unsaved.

cpmac
www.tribulatioinhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net


There you go EVSTEVMD, I hope that clears things up for you??!!:confused:


FUNDY

cpmac 03-08-2008 05:37 PM

Would someone explain the meaning of Romans 11:32?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 01:30 AM

I'll try to explain:
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

ROMANS 1 - Gentiles' UNBELIEF
ROMANS 2 - Jews' UNBELIEF
ROMANS 3 - All have SINNED


1. The Gentiles served the creature more than the Creator (Rom. 1).
So God concluded all the Gentiles in unbelief, waiting for God's wrath.

2. Israel had the law but disobeyed it (Rom. 2)
So God concluded all Israel in unbelief, waiting for God's judgment.

[Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
]

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

3. So God concluded them all - both Jews and Gentiles - in unbelief that he may have MERCY upon all.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So the explanation for Romans 11:32 can be found in the context:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:[Gentiles received mercy due to Israel's unbelief.]
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [Now, the Jews may also receive mercy through the mercy received by Gentiles.]
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

atlas 03-15-2008 01:56 AM

Cpmac,

Man you are way off base my friend. You are so far of base, I do not even think you are in the ballpark.




Atlas

evstevemd 03-15-2008 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 1439)
Evstevemd:
We might all be surprised to learn that the Rapture has already happened. So also the Great Tribulation.......
cpmac

1Thes 4
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we[church] which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Have the Lord descended? No! Have there Happened resurrection? No!Are we with the Lord? :confused:No! Then what? Rapture haven't happened yet!!:p
Ev.Steve

evstevemd 03-15-2008 08:54 PM

By the way[Not provoking but asking],
Who was anti-Christ?
Is that Nero,Domitian,Stalin,Hitler...or ????
But when Jesus destroyed Him? So you mean we are Living the Millenia age
So confused with your points!!
Ev Steve

cpmac 03-16-2008 10:11 AM

Biblestudent:

Quote:

3. So God concluded them all - both Jews and Gentiles - in unbelief that he may have MERCY upon all.
What does the verse mean by "unbelief?" I think that the right view of this word determines whether or not God concluded both Jews AND Gentiles in unbelief. What do you think?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

cpmac 03-16-2008 10:15 AM

Atlas:
I may be off, but I thought I was at least in the ball park. Gimme some examples with Scriptures.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

cpmac 03-16-2008 11:54 AM

Evstevemd:

Quote:

By the way[Not provoking but asking],
Who was anti-Christ?
Is that Nero,Domitian,Stalin,Hitler...or ????
But when Jesus destroyed Him? So you mean we are Living the Millenia age
So confused with your points!!
Ev Steve
THE Antichrist was, and is, Satan himself. The KJV mostly refers to this Antichrist as a spirit, i.e., "it." But that was the MAIN Antichrist. John says that there appeared many Antichrists in his day, and that is how he knew it was the "last time." I believe that the "Last time" began about the time of the birth of Jesus, and ended after Israel's war with Rome in AD70, the last time, or the end time, or the last days, referring to the end of Israel. What do you think?

His final destruction is yet to come.

We are living in the "Millennial age," at the end of which Satan will be released for a little while, cause a lot of chaos, and then be destroyed by Christ. Does that make sense to you?

Quote:

Have the Lord descended? No! Have there Happened resurrection? No!Are we with the Lord? No! Then what? Rapture haven't happened yet!!
Consider the possibility that the Bible, OT and NT, was written by the Jews, for the Jews, and mostly about the Jews. We learn from it, but it was intended largely for Israel.
You say the Lord has not yet descended. I have been taught the same thing by teachers who didn't see Him descend, nor did they not see Him descend- they just don't know. But the Jews might have seen Him, no one else needed to. Remember, when He came the first time, He came to His own people, the Jews. Although God's ultimate purpose was to bring salvation to all mankind, we Gentiles at that time were sort of on the sidelines as far as all the action was concerned.

The resurrection happened, and even our dispensational teachers agree that there is a separate resurrection for the OT Israelites. But they connect that to that future "great tribulation," which is a hoax. I believe that they got it partly right, except that their timing of the tribulation is way off base - by at least 2000 years. The Great Tribulation Christ spoke of in Matthew, Mark, and Luke happened in the past, not in the future.

WE haven't been raptured, but the first century saved Jews were. Paul expected to be raptured, and he was a great deal more knowledgeable than any of us, or any of our dispensational teachers. He was a Jew, part of God's Family. Christ came unto His own, as we see in the Gospel of John. He didn't come to them because they were Jews like Himself - when He came, He wasn't a Jew; He didn't become a Jew until after He got here. He came to them because they were of His own Family, the Family of God. That's why He called them His own.

So, Paul expected to be raptured with many of the other Jews, and Jesus said that all those things the Bible spoke of would happen to that same generation He was speaking to. The Liberals, who missed the point that the rapture could have applied only to the Jews, thought Jesus was mistaken. We needn't think that, just because we didn't see it, it didn't happen. When a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there, I can guarantee that it makes a noise, whether anyone hears it or not.

Want to get unconfused? Avoid commentaries, prophecy teachers, and modern translations. Read the KJV over and over. After ten years or less, the facts will begin to form a picture. It took me twenty-five, but I'm slow.

cpmac

www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

evstevemd 03-16-2008 03:59 PM

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:........................1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.......................1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


From Above verses it is Clear that it is for the church in Christ Jesus!:D
Nothing is being talked about Israel.It is The Church(Gentiles and Jews in Jesus) From that we can again ask ourselves Questions:

Have the Lord descended? No! Have there Happened resurrection? No!Are we with the Lord? No! Then what?:confused:
Rapture haven't happened yet!!:p

cpmac 03-17-2008 04:36 AM

Evstevemd:

O.K. Maybe I was wrong. Teach me more. Why did God blind the Jews?

cpmac

www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

Debau 03-17-2008 07:55 AM

Israel is the light to the Gentiles. They are also a stiffnecked people, a picture of us as sinners, whom God is longsuffering towards, that we should all come to salvation.(2 Pet 3:9)
He uses Israel :

"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house" (Isaiah 42:6)

"I will also give thee(Israel) for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." (Isaiah 49:6)

"yet now (us-we) have obtained mercy through their(Israel's) unbelief" (Rom 11:30)

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief: that he might have mercy upon all." (Rom 11:32)

"through their(Israel's) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy" (Rom 11:11)
"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (v. 25)

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."(2 Cor 3:14-16)

Israel shall be saved after God's plan to the Gentiles is complete thus far.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Rom 11:26-27)

God's eternal plan is through Israel.

cpmac 03-17-2008 08:32 AM

Debau:
You say, "He uses Israel ": not "He used Israel." Does this mean that He still uses Israel to "open blind eyes," to be a "light to the Gentiles," and so forth? Is it somehow, because Israel is in unbelief today, that we have salvation? I am a bit confused.

cpmac

Debau 03-17-2008 09:04 AM

Frederick the Great once asked one of his generals who was a believer, "Give me in one word a proof of the truth Bible."
The general replied, "Sir, the Jews!"

I know the that the very existence of Israel and the prophecies of her dispersion and regathering were a major influence in my belief.
Yes, God's plan with the Jews is hardly over. They are still in unbelief. He still uses the Jews.

A dispensational study of the Bible is necessary that someone more erudite than I can help you understand, if that's what your seeking.

evstevemd 03-17-2008 05:34 PM

Is This Simple Explanation?
They Expected messiah ,He came and they didn't Knew,they rejected Him,God turned to gentiles and Church resulted. They will one day accept Him and we all be with Jesus during millenium reign......then comes eternity to summarize

Feedback appreciated
Ev. Steve

cpmac 03-17-2008 07:44 PM

evstevemd:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

cpmac

evstevemd 03-18-2008 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 1840)
evstevemd:

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

cpmac

What do you mean?
Do you believe rapture hasn't come yet and that it is for church. I guess you are holding amillenilism point of view!:confused:

The truth is, the Bible is pre-millenial and rapture is future prophetic event. I'm sure about it!

The only thing that I'm on research is timing of the rapture itself,whether pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib.
I will appreciate any private message on my research. Just tell me what view you are holding and biblical support.
Thanks alot

Debau 03-18-2008 08:01 PM

"What do you mean?"

cpmac did not say definitively what he meant. His website is still up though...

Just wondering cpmac, what is Israel's position now? Are they occupiers of land that is not theirs? Will Israel be saved?
What of the Messianic prophecies?

Jeremiah 31:35-36

35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

cpmac 03-19-2008 02:51 PM

Debau:
Quote:

Just wondering cpmac, what is Israel's position now? Are they occupiers of land that is not theirs? Will Israel be saved?
What of the Messianic prophecies?

Jeremiah 31:35-36

35: Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
The Old Testament Israelites were resurrected and taken into heaven. They are there, in the New Jerusalem, being ruled by Christ and His apostles during the Church Age. Israel didn't cease from existing, they just moved.

What is Israel's position now? After Christ was crucified, Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Jerusalem isn't thought of in exalted terms any more, at least not spiritually. Spiritually means heavenly, and I think that is where the "good guys" from Israel are now.

All we have on earth are people who THINK they are Jews, but they delude themselves.
And the nation of Israel was not "reborn." It's a new secular nation, brought into legal existence by the Satanic United Nations, and now ruled by people who are Pseudo-Jews.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com

Paladin54 03-19-2008 03:04 PM

Interesting, cpmac, how the UN and the world absolutely hates Israel, and their one friend-the US, is starting down the road of hating Israel.....

atlas 03-19-2008 03:56 PM

Cpmac,

Quote:

All we have on earth are people who THINK they are Jews, but they delude themselves.
And the nation of Israel was not "reborn." It's a new secular nation, brought into legal existence by the Satanic United Nations, and now ruled by people who are Pseudo-Jews.
My wife just happens to be German/Jew. Her mother is a full blooded German, her father was ( now dead ) a full blooded Jew. You may think my wife is a deluded Pseudo-Jew, but I'll bet she will beg to differ.


Atlas

jerry 03-19-2008 04:42 PM

It's funny how people want to say there are no true Jews today OR that those in the church are now the Jews (ie. some form of Anglo-Israelism doctrine). Romans 9-11 teach that God put the nation of Israel (except the remnant He has always had) on the shelf during this church age - but during the tribulation period, He will turn back to Israel, bring them through the wilderness, purge out the rebels, THEN:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All remaining Israel will then be saved at a certain point in the Tribulation period.

God will keep all His promises to that nation - nationally, physically, spiritually.

cpmac 03-19-2008 05:30 PM

Debau:

Quote:

He uses Israel :

"To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house" (Isaiah 42:6)

"I will also give thee(Israel) for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." (Isaiah 49:6)
Isaiah 42:6 is about Christ, not Israel. It was fulfilled after His baptism, and after the temptation in the wilderness. Thw Holy Spirit had anointed Him to do these things.

Isaiah 49:6 is also about Christ, not Israel.

cpmac
http:/www.tribulationhoax.com

cpmac 03-19-2008 07:52 PM

Paladin54:

Quote:

Interesting, cpmac, how the UN and the world absolutely hates Israel, and their one friend-the US, is starting down the road of hating Israel.....
Hatred of Israel is the result of not understanding or not believing the Bible, which says that spiritually, all Israel has been concluded in unbelief (Romans 11:32), and so spiritually, they are all Gentiles, just like we are. They are neither superior, nor inferior. And "Jew" is not an ethnic term, it is religious. Abraham was a Gentile, a semite. So are his descendants. They began to be called Jewsa much later in the program.
Remember, I'm speaking only from the biblical standpoint. If someone wants to call himself a Jew, that is his business. If he wants to estabish a nation, and call it Israel, or Bugs Bunny, that, too, is his business. But when he thinks that he is spiritually superior to Christians, and will be saved by some other means than faith in Christ, that again is his own business. But he is walking on dangerous grounds. The Bible says that if he tries to live under the Law, which act is synonymous with being a Jew, then he is living under a curse. Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Read the Scriptures I have quoted in this post. Does the Bible not say that?

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com

cpmac 03-19-2008 08:01 PM

Jerry:

Quote:

It's funny how people want to say there are no true Jews today OR that those in the church are now the Jews (ie. some form of Anglo-Israelism doctrine). Romans 9-11 teach that God put the nation of Israel (except the remnant He has always had) on the shelf during this church age - but during the tribulation period, He will turn back to Israel, bring them through the wilderness, purge out the rebels, THEN:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All remaining Israel will then be saved at a certain point in the Tribulation period.

God will keep all His promises to that nation - nationally, physically, spiritually.
What is your definition of a "true Jew?"

Quote:

(except the remnant He has always had)
I find the idea of a remnant interesting. Where is that remnant today? Can they be identified?

Quote:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Didn't Christ come out of Sion(Jerusalem) 2000 years ago, and didn't He turn away ungodliness from Jacob? Or does

cpmac 03-19-2008 08:44 PM

Atlas:

Quote:
All we have on earth are people who THINK they are Jews, but they delude themselves.
And the nation of Israel was not "reborn." It's a new secular nation, brought into legal existence by the Satanic United Nations, and now ruled by people who are Pseudo-Jews.

My wife just happens to be German/Jew. Her mother is a full blooded German, her father was ( now dead ) a full blooded Jew. You may think my wife is a deluded Pseudo-Jew, but I'll bet she will beg to differ.

I don't know what your wife's ethnic background might be, but it can't be Jewish. "Jew" is a religious designation. To say that your wife's father was a full-blooded Jew is like saying that someone is a full-blooded Baptist, or Catholic. Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Jews, and everyone else after AD70 are Gentiles. Read Romans 11:32 in the KJV.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com

atlas 03-20-2008 02:40 AM

cpmac,

All Paul ever say is there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. He was always saying that about the race. Being a Jew is being a race. Just like I am a white man. I happen to be a Scotch white man. My wife is a saved, born again, blood washed German/Jew. Notice how I said German/Jew. Neither one of those says anything with her faith. That is about her race. German white, Jew speaks for it's self. She could be German/Jew and be lost. being a Jew has nothing to do with faith, it is all about race. Let me say I like the Jews as a race and I love one Jew in particular, my wife.

Cmac I think you maybe a little Arayan. They all think we are the true Jews of today. I could be wrong about you, but that is what they believe. The book of James was written to the Jews as was Hebrews, both after Paul wrote Romans.


Atlas

jerry 03-20-2008 05:56 AM

I agree with what you are saying, Atlas - but a Jew is not a race, but a nationality. Race is an evolutionary term - there is only one race, the human race. There are many tribes and nationalities.

Cpmac, The Jews have a religion - but they also have a national identity. As far as the remnant goes - who are they? They are whatever Jews are saved at any given time. Study out the passages on God's "remnant."

cpmac 03-20-2008 11:53 AM

Jerry:
I'm looking at what I think is a reference to the remnant, in Isaiah 6. In the same passage,
Isaiah tells us when the "Great Tribulation" occurs, and when the blindness of Israel ends.
Of course, that's my spin. Dispensationalists, I am sure, will have a different view.

v10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah tells us HOW the blindness began, but he doesn't tell, as far as I know, WHEN.

v11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
v12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
This is, without a doubt, a prediction of the Tribulation Jesus spoke of, which was to happen just before AD70. Some big time scholars, like John Macarthur, would like to tell us that this happened back in Babylonian times. Not true. Even if the details were identical, there was never any mention of blindness of the Jews. Here, Isaiah specifically tells us that this is the scene when the blindness of Israel ended.

Also, the Jews weren't blinded so that salvation could come to the Gentiles. That doesn't even make sense. Jews were concluded in unbelief so that salvation could come directly to Gentiles - through faith in Jesus Christ, meaning God was through using Jews. Their blindness came when, after some forty years of opportunity to hear and believe the Gospel, they still refused to believe the truth, even after seeing Christ, hearing Him, and were eye-witnesses of His miracles. They were blinded and destroyed. They were damned and destroyed in the Roman holocaust of AD70. Read 2Thes.2:9-12. About that time the believing remnant was raptured, and the souls of the Old Testament Israelites were resurrected and taken to heaven.

v13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. I believe the "tenth" is an approximation. This was the small remnant. They would "return." That, I believe, means that after God concluded all Israel in unbelief, in other words He kicked them all out of His Family, He gave every one a means to come back into the Family; all they had to do was believe in and obey Jesus Christ.
A careful study of the New Testament, at least in the KJV, shows that there was a general salvation of all Israel around the time of the AD70 holocaust.

That raises the question: since all these were Christ's people, why weren't they saved the moment they received Him as Lord and Saviour. The Jews in that day weren't saved immediately. They had to endure the "Baptism of fire" to the end - the end of the Jewish system. The Gospel of John, chapter 1:

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When they first received Him, they didn't immediately become sons of God, He only gave them power to become Sons of God. I suspect that means He empowered them to overcome the devil throughout that Baptism of fire period.

Jerry, I'll look at the other Scripture references to the remant later.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 03-20-2008 03:06 PM

God has promised to ALWAYS have a remnant, not just during the endtimes.

Funny how you think the rapture already occured - when John never wrote the book of Revelation, which deals with the Tribulation period/Daniels' seventieth week when God turns back to Israel, until AD 96!! Still future prophecy. God is still dealing with the churches, Jesus has not returned yet, the Antichrist is not ruling the world with his one-world government and church, and no mark of the beast has been established worldwide, Jesus is not physically reigning from Jerusalem yet, and the devil is not bound for 1000 years yet.

timothy 03-20-2008 03:12 PM

I thought baptism of fire concerns the souls who wil go into the lake of fire? Certainly not one to pray for...

Buythetruth 03-20-2008 07:03 PM

There is a Preterist among this group. Preterism belief espouses the doctrines that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. That is full blown Preterism. Partial Preterism does not believe some of those doctrines - rapture not having taken place yet, etc. Most, if not all phophecy is looked at through "allegorical" glasses. Literal interpretation of scripture is of little improtance. Hope this helps. There is much more. It is a lethal doctrine.

Buythetruth

Paladin54 03-20-2008 10:08 PM

Hey, Jerry, I see arguments between poeple who say Revelation was written before AD 70 and at AD 96, and neither side has any proof, it just becomes an argument as such.
"It was written this year"
"No it was written THIS year"

Can you show me where I can assure them it was written in 96, Anno Domine?

jerry 03-21-2008 08:46 AM

He was imprisoned during the persecutions of one of the Caesars. Peter and Paul were martyred during the first one, and Domitian's was the second - that is when John was exiled to Patmos.

Either way - it is obviously referring to future worldwide events that have not happened yet. Have all the seas turned to blood across the world? Has a 400 million man army come from China to fight against the antichrist? Is there a one-world leader and one-world church, where worship of the antichrist and his image is being enforced by beheading? Has there been a new temple built in Jerusalem? Have boils come upon everyone with the mark? Have all the armies of the world come against Jerusalem to wipe them out (battle of Armageddon)? Has the antichrist made a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and then defiled the temple/holy of holies in the middle of the seven years?

Pick any of the seals, trumpets, and vials - see what the book of Revelation has to say about them - then tell us they were fulfilled literally (and there is no prophetic fulfillment if it was not literal - all prophecies about Jesus' first coming were literal).

evstevemd 03-21-2008 06:27 PM

Anyway can Cpmac show me single scripture that first resurrection 1thes4:16-17 , 1cor15 and other scriptures that are for Israel and not the church? I know it refers to church (Jews and Gentiles), and not Israel. Can you show ne single scripture from rev1-22 or Daniel 1-12 to justify your claims.

cpmac 03-21-2008 06:29 PM

Jerry:

Quote:

He was imprisoned during the persecutions of one of the Caesars. Peter and Paul were martyred during the first one, and Domitian's was the second - that is when John was exiled to Patmos.
Can you be absolutely certain that John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos? He may have been there on the Lord's day "for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." The word "for" can be interpreted either as "because of," or "for the purpose of."
He could have been there preaching to the people of the fishing villages on the isle. But there is absolutely no physical evidence that he was there imprisoned by Domitian.

And if it was under Domitian's rule, who was among the worst persecutors of Christians, how was he permitted to write a Christian book like Revelation, and then send copies to seven churches? Come to think of it, if he was exiled for his belief in Christ, how come all those churches were able to operate "business as usual?"

Jesus told John to Write the things that were, the things that are, and the things that shall be hereafter. That's a fair indication that all of Revelation was not fulfilled by the end of the war in AD70. And if we weren't there, how can we be sure what was, and what was not.

Quote:

Has a 400 million man army come from China to fight against the antichrist?
Jerry, that number seems to be a bit inflated. And where does the Bible say that they will fight against the Antichrist, unless, by Antichrist, you mean Satan.

Quote:

Has the antichrist made a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and then defiled the temple/holy of holies in the middle of the seven years?
I presume that you get that out of Daniel 9:27. Or rather dispensational scholars pulled that out of Daniel and doctored it up to suit their agenda. Here is why I can't believe it was the Antichrist.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

If this was (or will be) the Antichrist who does all this, and we have all been taught that Antichrist is the epitome of abominations, and it says that for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (meaning Jerusalem, or the kingdom of Israel), how can we expect him to have such an attack of righteous indignation that he makes it desolate for all of their abominations? That doesn't fit his character. But it's easy to see how Christ could do all these things.
And he didn't make a covenant of peace; He confirmed His Fathers' covenant (Luke 4:18) with Israel for three and a half years, until He was cut off (crucified). That essentially ended the sacrifice and the oblations.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

evstevemd 03-21-2008 07:05 PM

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cpmac,
the word "man" is the same used on Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
so Just tell us how this man of sin[Antichrist] becomes satan?


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