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Diligent 05-19-2008 04:17 PM

Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation
 
Regarding Psalms 12:6,7
Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Quote:

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons (Post 4823)
Actually, that passage is not talking about the preservation of Scripture. It is talking about the preservation of the "poor."

FSSL claims that the words "Thou shalt keep them" refer to the poor in verse five:
Psalms 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

FSSL's claim is clearly incorrect simply from the grammar of the passage, but more obvious is that the "poor" of David's time were not preserved for ever.

FSSL later claims the word "from" would have to mean that the words began in David's generation. That is as incorrect as assuming that "the poor" began in that generation to the exclusion of all prior generations.

The book Thou Shalt Keep Them (ISBN 0974381705, chapter 1) offers a thorough examination of the Hebrew text proving that the modern versions that translate this passage so as to remove the promise of preservation are simply wrong. Those who have an interest in such things should read that book.

If we are to accept the incorrect reading of verse seven to make it refer to the poor instead of God's words, we must do the same in Psalm 119:110,111:
Psalms 119:110-111 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
If we accept FSSL's rules of grammar in this case, we must assume David was rejoicing at the wicked, instead of God's testimonies. (Note that this verse also teaches the preservation of God's word in that they are an heritage "for ever." Just as Psalm 12:7 says they will be preserved "for ever." A little "Scripture with Scripture" by the simplest of KJV believers will yield mountains more understanding than all the scholarly works of unbelieving "original language" scholars.)

The meaning of Psalm 12 is perfectly plain. The chapter is a contrast between David's love of God's words and the vanity of men's words. Incorrectly reading verse 7 to refer to a promise to preserve the poor forever ruins the praise of God's promises David is offering. It also leaves us with the strange, untenable position that God is promising the preservation of the poor in perpetuity -- a tenet not to be found elsewhere in Scripture. (And I looked -- among all of the commentaries I have that agree with FSSL's position, none of them offer a cross-reference teaching a similar tenet.) It also contradicts the very first verse, where David states that "for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men." If we are to accept the reading FSSL offers, we must conclude that the "godly man" and "faithful" can not also be "poor" and that, oddly, the poor are therefore ungodly, faithless, and will be preserved forever.

Diligent 05-19-2008 04:19 PM

Since this topic comes up a lot, I'm making it "sticky" for a while.

freesundayschoollessons 05-19-2008 04:26 PM

Excellent thread. I will "sit back" and lurk for a while. I landed 6 websites last week and need to start some and finish others. I will let you all discuss this without my interference. If you want me to deal with something, I will try, as time (and my wife) permits. :) See Diligent, I don't beat her :)

Biblestudent 05-19-2008 05:47 PM

Thanks, Diligent, for that information!
Modern version advocates do criticize the KJB to be "misleading" and they believe the "them" refers to people rather than to God's "words". But comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Cor. 2:13), to make "them" refer to God's "words" (Psalm 12:6,7) shows no contradiction whatsoever. In fact, Scripture passages such as Matthew 24:35 and 1 Peter 1:23 back this up.

Steven Avery 05-21-2008 12:23 PM

complementary scriptures to Psalm 12:6-7
 
Hi Folks,

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It is helpful to simply show some of the complementary verses.
The Bible is consistent -- the Word of our God stands forever.

Psalm 119:89.
Forever, O LORD,
thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalms 18:31
As for God, his way is perfect:
the word of the LORD is tried:
he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
For who is God save the LORD?
or who is a rock save our God?

Psalm 78 5-7
For he established a testimony in Jacob,
and appointed a law in Israel,
which he commanded our fathers,
that they should make them known to their children:
That the generation to come might know them,
even the children which should be born;
who should arise and declare them to their children:
That they might set their hope in God,
and not forget the works of God,
but keep his commandments:

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure:
he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth,
the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
My spirit that is upon thee,
and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
shall not depart out of thy mouth,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed,
saith the LORD,
from henceforth and for ever.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away. (also Luke 12:33)

John 10:35
If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

1Peter 1:23-25
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass
The word of the Lord endureth for ever

Shalom,
Steven

bibleprotector 05-21-2008 10:22 PM

Quote:

the scripture cannot be broken;
Amen.

"For what saith the scripture?" (Romans 4:3a).

Will Kinney 05-22-2008 07:08 PM

Psalms 12 - God's words preserved
 
Hi Brandon. Good stuff. I love your posts.

Here is a bit more on this precious Psalm.

Psalm 12:6-7 - God’s promise to preserve His words


Has God promised to preserve His words here on this earth till heaven and earth pass away? Well, a lot depends on which particular bible version you are using.

The Book which I and thousands of other Christians all over the world believe to be the complete, inerrant, infallible and 100% true words of God tell us that He did promise to preserve His words.

Here is a simple Bible version comparison regarding the promise found in Psalm 12 of the King James Bible.

KJB - “Thou shalt keep THEM, O LORD, thou shalt preserve THEM from this generation for ever.”

Webster’s 1833 translation - “Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”


English Revised Version - 1881 “Thou shalt keep THEM, O LORD, thou shalt preserve THEM from this generation for ever.”

ASV 1901 - “Thou wilt keep THEM, O Jehovah, Thou wilt preserve THEM from this generation for ever.”

World English Bible - “You will keep THEM, Yahweh. You will preserve THEM from this generation forever.”

Darby - “Thou, Jehovah, wilt keep THEM, thou wilt preserve THEM from this generation for ever.

Hebrew Names Version = KJB -”You will keep THEM LORD, You will preserve THEM from this generation forever. “

NKJV 1982 - “You shall keep THEM, O LORD, You shall preserve THEM from this generation forever.”
*
*
NASB - “You, O LORD, will keep THEM; You will preserve HIM from this generation forever.”

NIV - The NIV is very different, not only from the KJB but also from the NASB. It says: “And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. O LORD, you will keep US SAFE AND PROTECT US FROM SUCH PEOPLE forever.”

Douay-Rheims - “Thou, O Lord, wilt preserve US: and keep US from this generation for ever.”

Jewish Pub. Society 1917 - “Thou wilt keep THEM, O LORD; Thou wilt preserve US from this generation for ever.

The 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company version agrees exactly with the King James Bible reading: “The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep THEM, O Lord, thou shalt preserve THEM from this generation for ever.”


RSV 1954- “Do thou, O LORD, protect US, guard US ever from this generation.
*

ESV 2001 - “You, O LORD, will keep THEM; you will guard US from this generation forever.”

Young’s - “Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve THEM, Thou keepest US from this generation to the age.”

The Spanish La Biblia de las Américas 1997 agrees with the KJB saying : “Tú, SEÑOR, LOS guardarás; de esta generación LOS preservarás para siempre.” So too do the Spanish Reina Valera 1909, 1960, 1995 and Las Sagradas Escrituras of 1569.

The French Louis Segond 1910 also agree with the KJB - “Toi, Eternel! tu LES garderas, Tu LES préserveras de cette race à jamais.”

Dutch Staten Vertaling agrees with the KJB _ “Gij, HEERE, zult HEN bewaren; Gij zult HEN behoeden voor dit geslacht, tot in eeuwigheid.”

The Italian Rivudeta 1927 = KJB “Tu, o Eterno, LI proteggerai, LI preserverai da questa generazione in perpetuo.” So too does the 1991 La Nuova Diodati.



Bible commentators disagree among themselves as well as to what these words mean. John Wesley commented: 12:7 Thou shalt keep them - Thy words or promises: these thou wilt observe and keep, both now, and from this generation for ever.”

Dr. G. Campbell Morgan agreed with the rendering. He writes, "The psalmist breaks out into praise of the purity of His words, and declares that Jehovah will 'keep them' and 'preserve them.' The 'them' here refers to the words. There is no promise made of widespread revival or renewal. It is the salvation of a remnant and the preservation of His own words which Jehovah promises." (Notes on the Psalm, Revell Comp., p.32).


Adam Clarke says: “Instead of the pronoun THEM in these clauses, several MSS., with the Septuagint, the Vulgate, and the Arabic, have US.”

Jewish commentaror Aben Ezra believes the promise concerns the preserving of the words of God from generation to generation.

And others are of the opinion that God is promising to preserve His people. The bible versions are in wide disagreement as are the commentators regarding both how the text should read and what the meaning is. I, of course, side with the King James Bible in that God has promised to preserve every one of His inspired words. All modern versionists deny that He did so and they all believe that the Hebrew texts have been corrupted in numerous places, though none of them agrees with any of the others as to where or how.


Will Kinney

Steven Avery 05-23-2008 08:17 AM

Psalm 12 - contrast - God's word with lips of men
 
Hi Folks,

Above we we were discussing the harmony of the promise of scripture preservation in Psalm 12 with the consistent theme within the Bible.

Also very helpful is to discuss verse 7 within the Psalm chapter. So much is written about the context of verse 7, often only referring to one or two verses earlier. This can be sound, however it is also very helpful to read and consider the full Psalm.

Notice that Psalm 12 seven times refers to the false lips of the children of men. And then, after speaking of God's judgment against the vain and prideful lips of the children of men, the psalmist shows the contrast with the purified as silver words of the LORD !

Psalm 12
Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth;
for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
They speak vanity every one with his neighbour:
with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips,
and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail;
our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
now will I arise, saith the LORD;
I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
The wicked walk on every side,
when the vilest men are exalted.


The full context of the chapter is clear in the contrast of the pure words of God with the vain proud, flattering lips of vile men - the principle theme of the Psalm. And God supplies his pure words to the remnant, the 'godly man' (v.1) words to lift the 'poor and needy' (v.5), words that his servants love. (Psalm 119:140). The 'poor and needy' that are freed from oppression are the godly whom hear and receive the pure, refined as silver, words of God. This purified silver is kept and preserved, available to all generations.

And then, in contrast to the natural lifting up and contrast with the "words of the LORD" - to try to apply verse seven as to the poor and needy and not to the words of God, you would have to create a whole new class of people.

-- the silver, purified, kept and preserved poor and needy (many who are oppressed, and receive injustice, are themselves not even believers).

And the modernist attempt would take these attributes of purity and refinement as silver away from the words of God. Yet any simple and clear reading of the Psalm shows that the Psalm compares the words of flattering and fleeting wicked men with God's eternal and preserved and pure words.

Now, because God's words are preserved, many who receive and keep those words (e.g. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego) will be preserved, even in fire. This is a result of their dedication to God's pure words. Personally, I do not see any difficulty in the auxiliary linked understanding of Psalm 12 being the preservation of those faithful to God's pure words. Even a bit of deliberate dual meaning in the Psalm is possible, and the historic Jewish understanding included both aspects. Whether or not one allows for the auxiliary interpretation, it is clear that the primary and forceful and clear and majestic meaning of Psalm 12:7 is the preservation of God's words.

Shalom,
Steven

Biblestudent 05-23-2008 08:26 AM

Very nice observation, Steven!

Truth4Today 05-24-2008 12:21 AM

See for some go infomation:

• Psalm 12:6-7 and Bible Preservation
by Jack Moorman http://www.feasite.org/Foundation/fbcpresv.htm

• STROUSE SAYS PSALM 12:7 TEACHES PRESERVATION OF SCRIPTURE http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/strouse-psalm127.html

• Samuel C. Gipp an the answer book http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/Gipp/ab_28.htm

__________________________________

- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)

PeterAV 05-25-2008 09:10 PM

Psalm 12
 
You are a real blessing Steven!
Thanx 4 letting God's word be God's word.

chette777 08-03-2008 03:56 AM

Psalm 12
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

The above bold words are what will be preserved. simply on a literary level the the LORD speaks his word of promise in verse five not to preserve people but that he will rise up against the wicked.

David goes on to tell us the Lords word is pure as silver purified to the limit of purity. meaning he will keep his word to rise up and set them in safty even unto a future time. even if they or we don't see it God will keep his word. so we can rest in the fact God will keep his words and promises.

but the verse has the meaning in and of it self to keep ALL his words and to preserve it as well. not just to rise up as promised but to keep his words pure and preserved, that is, if we divorced it from the context of the chapter. Verse 1-5a and verse 8 are the circle of context. Verse 6,7 are the promise to keep his word to rise up against the wicked and proudful.

in this case both meanings are accepted. This is one of those rightly dividing verses it can be kept together or divided.

Also Brandon hit on the contrasting of mens words and God's words. we can always trust the Lord to keep his words pure and purfect unto every generation.

Will Kinney 08-31-2008 04:19 PM

Good points, Brandon. Thanks.

Will K

Scott Simons 09-02-2008 04:15 AM

Pure Word
 
It is ridiculous to think anything other that the preservation was talking about anything other than the pure words of God. Why the credence to such nonsense?

Forrest 09-02-2008 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diligent (Post 4947)

The meaning of Psalm 12 is perfectly plain.

It is to me also.

“For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89).

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33).

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8).

How can we ever proclaim and teach the true meaning of Scripture without first believing God has preserved every Word?

Just_A_Thought 10-30-2008 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 7284)
It is to me also.

“For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89).

Exactly, God's perfect word is settled in HEAVEN. No where does it teach that it is one earth.

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33).

Yes, again if it were on earth then it would be burnt up when God destroys the earth. It will not be! It is settled in Heaven.

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8).

It was before the foundations of the earth and will be here after it is destroyed.

How can we ever proclaim and teach the true meaning of Scripture without first believing God has preserved every Word?

God DID preserve His word but man has taken it out of context. God's words are true words but if I translate it or copie it I can mess it up. It may not be done on purpose but I am far from perfect! (Maybe this is the only thing you wil agree with me on;)) I can mess it up while meaning well.

Just_A_Thought 10-30-2008 01:29 AM

Even the older Bibles teach it is the poor being preserved. These were not money hungry people or people trying to "prevert" God's word. The Bishop's Bible (which the KJV1611 is a revision of) agree with this teaching...

6 The wordes of God be wordes pure, as the siluer tryed in a furnace of earth: and purified seuen times. 7 [Wherfore] thou wylt kepe the godly, O God: thou wylt preserue euery one of them from this generation for euer. -The Bishop's Bible (1568)

6 The wordes of the Lorde are pure wordes, as the siluer, tried in a fornace of earth, fined seuen folde. 7 Thou wilt keepe them, O Lord: thou wilt preserue him from this generation for euer. -The Geneva Bible (1587)

6 The wordes of the LORDE are pure wordes: eue as ye syluer, which from earth is tried and purified vij. tymes in the fyre. 7 Kepe the therfore (o LORDE) and preserue vs fro this generacion for euer. -Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)

6 The spechis of the Lord ben chast spechis; siluer examynyd bi fier, preued fro erthe, purgid seuen fold. 7 Thou, Lord, schalt kepe vs; and thou `schalt kepe vs fro this generacioun with outen ende. -The Wycliffe Bible (1395)

These men were translating God's word as closely as they could. It i odd that they all agree. Think about it the KJV really does agree with them to unless you take it out of context. God is preserving the poor in these verses not His word.

bibleprotector 10-30-2008 06:06 AM

Quote:

God DID preserve His word but man has taken it out of context. God's words are true words but if I translate it or copie it I can mess it up. It may not be done on purpose but I am far from perfect! (Maybe this is the only thing you wil agree with me on) I can mess it up while meaning well.
Clearly, Psalm 12 says "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Therefore, God does promise to preserve and keep His Word, every word of it, and to keep them from the time they were first given to this very day and for ever.

If God's words are messed up, they are not God's words. However, we know that copying mistakes can happen. However, this does not negate that God's Word has been preserved, or make good copies (Traditional Majority Greek Text Manuscripts) bad, just because they may contain a copying mistake here or there. However, this cannot apply to wilful corruption of the Scripture as is exhibited in some copies and very clearly in some modern versions (e.g. New World Translation).

Of course some modern version people may mean well, yet if they do not believe that God's Word is fully true and fully available, no matter how much they "love the Lord", they are going to produce flawed and erroneous works: it is because they are in doubt and unbelief concerning God's promises and power concerning His Word.

A classic illustration of this would be the attempt to deny that Psalm 12 applies to words.

bibleprotector 10-30-2008 06:18 AM

Quote:

Even the older Bibles teach it is the poor being preserved.
And since God's Word has been purified SEVEN TIMES in Protestant English Bibles, it is clear that the KJB is going to be better that the Bishops', Geneva or Tyndale, etc.

Quote:

These were not money hungry people or people trying to "prevert" God's word.
No, and neither was King James or his men. They were not money hungry nor perverters. To imply otherwise is a slur and unhistorical nonsense.

Quote:

The Bishop's Bible (which the KJV1611 is a revision of) agree with this teaching...
Actually the KJB is much more than a revision of the Bishops'... read the front from 1611, it says "newly translated out of the original tongues". (We don't have the word "newly" any more.)

Quote:

These men were translating God's word as closely as they could.
It is good that it was so, but surely the Bible is not restricted merely to man's ability, but to God's control over history. See Daniel 2:21, 4:17, etc. If it is merely natural man who give us the Word of God, we are lots of trouble.

Quote:

It i odd that they all agree.
Actually, this is a proof that ONLY the KJB is a perfect English Bible, in that they all are slightly wrong in this place.

Quote:

Think about it the KJV really does agree with them to unless you take it out of context.
No, you are misunderstanding the context. Read the plain Scripture text in Psalm 12 in the KJB and you have to pervert the meaning of the words to make it say something else.

Quote:

God is preserving the poor in these verses not His word.
Yes, God does preserve the poor, but He also preserves His Word. Not only is this plainly stated in Psalm 12, but it is consistent with God's character. Think about it, in Psalm 68:11 it says that God gave the Word. Would God give it and then let it fail, fall away, come to nought? Surely, the almighty God is telling the truth when He says He shall preserve His very words in full purity. If this is a lie, then we are in an atheist position because we have no exactly true Scripture ever again. (Can we be even certain that Christ is coming back again, since no translation/version would be perfect?)

It is so clear that to love the truth, to love the pure word, means that God would give the pure Word and that we receive that we have the pure Word. "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." (Psalm 119:140).

Just_A_Thought 10-30-2008 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 10448)
No, and neither was King James or his men. They were not money hungry nor perverters. To imply otherwise is a slur and unhistorical nonsense.

I was not saying King Jame's men were. I hear this a lot when people talk of the new versions. I was making a point not attacking the KJV translators. King James on the other hand was not so great but that could be another thread.

Actually the KJB is much more than a revision of the Bishops'... read the front from 1611, it says "newly translated out of the original tongues". (We don't have the word "newly" any more.)

King James said it would be the main guide for the translation of the KJV.


Actually, this is a proof that ONLY the KJB is a perfect English Bible, in that they all are slightly wrong in this place.

No, even the KJV means the same thing if you read it as "them" being the poor.


No, you are misunderstanding the context. Read the plain Scripture text in Psalm 12 in the KJB and you have to pervert the meaning of the words to make it say something else.

I am FAR from perverting the meaning. Even if I was wrong there is a diffident difference between being off and perverting the Word of God.

Yes, God does preserve the poor, but He also preserves His Word. Not only is this plainly stated in Psalm 12, but it is consistent with God's character. Think about it, in Psalm 68:11 it says that God gave the Word. Would God give it and then let it fail, fall away, come to nought? Surely, the almighty God is telling the truth when He says He shall preserve His very words in full purity. If this is a lie, then we are in an atheist position because we have no exactly true Scripture ever again. (Can we be even certain that Christ is coming back again, since no translation/version would be perfect?)

God's word is 100% pure, accurate, etc. in Heaven. That is where His word is settled. If what you are saying is true then it is not very fair to people in another country who can not speak English and have no Bible for them. According to what you said this is against God's character. If so then they should be atheists? No, they should do their best to find truth. Pray to the "Unknown God" and let Him answer them. I know this is a little out of context of what you met by the atheist position but it is the same concept.

It is so clear that to love the truth, to love the pure word, means that God would give the pure Word and that we receive that we have the pure Word. "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." (Psalm 119:140).

If the KJV1611 is the pure Word of God as you are claiming it is. 100% perfect and EVERY WORD is perfect can we change any of the words in it and it still be perfect?

Brother Tim 10-30-2008 07:47 AM

The question is asked,
Quote:

If the KJV1611 is the pure Word of God as you are claiming it is. 100% perfect and EVERY WORD is perfect can we change any of the words in it and it still be perfect?
If by KJV1611 you mean the first printing of the book, then it is clear that changes were made. The perfection was not reached until the production of the edition now known as the PCE (Pure Cambridge Edition) about 1900. From that point forward, yes, every word, spelling, and punctuation must remain unchanged for it to be 100% perfect.

Forrest 10-30-2008 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought (Post 10442)
God DID preserve His word but man has taken it out of context. God's words are true words but if I translate it or copie it I can mess it up. It may not be done on purpose but I am far from perfect! (Maybe this is the only thing you wil agree with me on;)) I can mess it up while meaning well.

Just_A_Thought, I sincerely pray you too will discover the word which is settled in heaven, which shall not pass away, which shall stand forever, which is preserved by the Almighty God, and is in our possession today in the King James Bible.

Please take the time to read each verse below and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart through God’s word.
Ps 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Ps 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Ps 119:25 DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

Ps 119:28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

Ps 119:38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

Ps 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

Ps 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Ps 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

Ps 119:49 ZAIN. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.

Ps 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Ps 119:57 CHETH. Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.

Ps 119:58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

Ps 119:65 TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Ps 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

Ps 119:74
They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Ps 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.

Ps 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Ps 119:82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?

Ps 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Ps 119:90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Ps 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

Ps 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Ps 119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Ps 119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Ps 119:116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Ps 119:123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Ps 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

Ps 119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.

Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Ps 119:147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

Ps 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

Ps 119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.

Ps 119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

Ps 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ps 119:161 SCHIN. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

Ps 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Ps 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Ps 119:170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

Ps 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
May His preserved, kept, settle, inspired, infallible, and perfect written word increase your faith.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

MC1171611 10-30-2008 09:56 AM

"Bill and John went with me to the bowling alley. The police pulled us over. They gave us a ticket."

Tell me that "they" in the third sentence is Bill and John, and you're an idiot. Same with Psalm 12:6-7. God wanted "them" to refer to His words, and therefore it does. It doesn't matter what anyone wants them to refer to, what anyone thinks they refer to, or what doctrine you're trying to supplant by ignoring the simple, plain fact of English, but Psalm 12:7 refers to Psalm 12:6, not verse 5. There's a period, denoting the closing of an idea, and there is nothing in the context to suggest otherwise.

Forrest 10-30-2008 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 10480)
"Bill and John went with me to the bowling alley. The police pulled us over. They gave us a ticket."

Brother Vince, who won? You, Bill, or John?

P.S. What did you get the ticket for? :D

Brother Tim 10-30-2008 11:07 AM

Who was driving?

MC1171611 10-30-2008 12:35 PM

Boy, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you two were dyed-in-the-wool Alexandrians! :D

Brother Tim 10-30-2008 12:42 PM

I live in Gainesville! And wool is itchy!

Forrest 10-30-2008 12:49 PM

Shouldn't Bill's name actually be "William", and is it possible John is actually "Jonathan", and you are in reality "Vincent"?

Brother Tim 10-30-2008 01:02 PM

I'm still wondering why they were pulled over by the anti-bowling gestapo?!

KJBPrincess 10-30-2008 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 10517)
Shouldn't Bill's name actually be "William", and is it possible John is actually "Jonathan", and you are in reality "Vincent"?

Now you're just majoring on the minors here! What we really need to know is: Why did the police give them a ticket? Were they speeding, or was it something else?

Just_A_Thought 10-30-2008 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 10459)
The question is asked,
If by KJV1611 you mean the first printing of the book, then it is clear that changes were made. The perfection was not reached until the production of the edition now known as the PCE (Pure Cambridge Edition) about 1900. From that point forward, yes, every word, spelling, and punctuation must remain unchanged for it to be 100% perfect.

Pardon my ignorance on this but I have never heard this before. I have heard the KJVO doctrine a long time but I have always been taught the KJV1611 is the perfect, inspired Word of God. You are saying this is not the case but rather the PCE is. Where does this belief stem from and how is this. Again, pardon my ignorance on this but I don't understand how Cambridge perfected the 1611.

MC1171611 10-30-2008 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought (Post 10568)
Pardon my ignorance on this but I have never heard this before. I have heard the KJVO doctrine a long time but I have always been taught the KJV1611 is the perfect, inspired Word of God. You are saying this is not the case but rather the PCE is. Where does this belief stem from and how is this. Again, pardon my ignorance on this but I don't understand how Cambridge perfected the 1611.

I've never been comfortable with the PCE idea. I think God was smart enough to get it right the first time.

PeterAV 10-30-2008 10:24 PM

The PCE
 
Tyndale, Bishop's, Geneva, et al. can be considered the pure word of God.
However, they are not pure in presentational form.
They all have certain spelling errors, omissions, even if only a few.
Only the PCE CIRCA 1900 is the pure word of God in it's presentational form.
All one needs to do is compare with honesty and one will clearly see the superiority of the PCE over the 1611 or 1769 and other later varieties.
*******
Here is one example.
Just look at Joshua 19:2 in a non-PCE.
It does not read "or Sheba", does it?
"And Sheba" is plainly wrong, to this day.
Read the context of just how many cities there are.
The PCE is presentationaly pure.

KJBers used to say, [since they knew there are differences, and the odd typo] that "Any KJB is the pure word of God."
It may have worked up until now, but now we have the final presentation of the pure Holy Bible.
*******
Also, at the time of 1611, capitalization was not finalized. Neither was spelling.
This is simple fact.
So the KJB of today is superior to the original because of this.
And the Pure Cambridge edition is superior to other KJBs in this as well.
"Spirit" versus "spirit"
As well as others.
*******
God DID get it right the first time, BUT man has presented error into the text.
See?
But quickly, errors were corrected.
The culmination is in the 1769 and completely finalized in the PCE CIRCA 1900.
We have had the Pure Holy Bible, without any admixture of error of any sort since 1900.
It simply took time for us to recognize this.
*******
In conclusion, any KJB is the pure word of God, as is the Geneva etc.
But only the PCE is the pure word of God in the final presentational form.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Check Joshua 19:2 and see if you have a pure Bible in this place.
There are several check points other than this verse.

Just_A_Thought 10-30-2008 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterAV (Post 10615)
Tyndale, Bishop's, Geneva, et al. can be considered the pure word of God.
However, they are not pure in presentational form.
They all have certain spelling errors, omissions, even if only a few.
Only the PCE CIRCA 1900 is the pure word of God in it's presentational form.
All one needs to do is compare with honesty and one will clearly see the superiority of the PCE over the 1611 or 1769 and other later varieties.
*******
Here is one example.
Just look at Joshua 19:2 in a non-PCE.
It does not read "or Sheba", does it?
"And Sheba" is plainly wrong, to this day.
Read the context of just how many cities there are.
The PCE is presentationaly pure.

KJBers used to say, [since they knew there are differences, and the odd typo] that "Any KJB is the pure word of God."
It may have worked up until now, but now we have the final presentation of the pure Holy Bible.
*******
Also, at the time of 1611, capitalization was not finalized. Neither was spelling.
This is simple fact.
So the KJB of today is superior to the original because of this.
And the Pure Cambridge edition is superior to other KJBs in this as well.
"Spirit" versus "spirit"
As well as others.
*******
God DID get it right the first time, BUT man has presented error into the text.
See?
But quickly, errors were corrected.
The culmination is in the 1769 and completely finalized in the PCE CIRCA 1900.
We have had the Pure Holy Bible, without any admixture of error of any sort since 1900.
It simply took time for us to recognize this.
*******
In conclusion, any KJB is the pure word of God, as is the Geneva etc.
But only the PCE is the pure word of God in the final presentational form.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Check Joshua 19:2 and see if you have a pure Bible in this place.
There are several check points other than this verse.

Thank you for your explanation.

bibleprotector 10-31-2008 07:00 AM

Just_a_thought, take care:

Quote:

KJV1611 is the perfect, inspired Word of God.
Once again, that false accusation. You may have heard it said that KJBOs claim inspiration from 1604 to 1611, but it is a lie. There may be a few KJBOs who really believe that, but "normal" KJBOs do not.

P.S. The KJB is the inspired Word of God in English, but that's because it was faithfully rendered and by special care of godly men by God's providence, who received from the proper tradition what God had preserved since He first gave the Word in Earth.

bibleprotector 10-31-2008 07:07 AM

Vince:

Quote:

I've never been comfortable with the PCE idea. I think God was smart enough to get it right the first time.
Yes, God got the TEXT and the TRANSLATION right the first time. (It was right when Jeremiah, etc. wrote it.) It was right when it was handed over to the printers in late 1610 or so.

But we know that the TRANSLATORS would have spelt words various ways, as is also exhibited in the printing, which would have already been affected say in 1638. When God got it right in 1611, we agree when we mean the TEXT and the TRANSLATION, however, we cannot say that the typography, spelling etc. was "right" (i.e. presentationally correct) as it now is. God would not be the author of printing mistakes. But He allowed for them in His providential plan, since there would be a seven fold purification of the presentation (never the changing of the actual underlying TEXT or TRANSLATION) of the KJB.

Diligent 10-31-2008 08:27 AM

Guys, let's keep this thread from going too far off-topic. Please take the PCE discussion over to one of the PCE threads, where this has already been discussed. Thanks!

Brother Tim 10-31-2008 08:52 AM

MC, Just, and others interested:
It is well worth your time to go to Matthew's website and read the extensive material there. Then can you understand how magnificently God's plan has been carried out.

MC, you are new here, so I haven't yet discerned your positions. I am not intending anything less than good when I say that your statement, "I think God was smart enough to get it right the first time." is very short-sighted. Just stop and think about it. If your statement is true, then we must revert back to the very first complete English translation. (Wycliffe or Tyndale?) If you are meaning the 1611 printing of the KJB, then we have a two problems. There were two printed that year, and they did not entirely match. Secondly, if you thought the modern versionists' argument of understandability is bad now, what would it be if we went back to the EXACT replica of the first printing of the KJB as our accepted text? There are pictures of it on the web with its original font.

The text was correct, the translation was correct, the presentation had to go through a purification process.

As far as the PCE is concerned, since it has been brought to the surface on this and many other sites, none have disproven its accuracy when compared to other editions of the KJB. On the other hand, students of the issue seem to be drawn to it as the ultimate standard. Others here can bear witness of this fact.

P.S. Sorry, Brandon. I was working on my post when you added your proper admonishment.

MC1171611 10-31-2008 11:49 AM

Well, I must say that I disagree with Bibleprotector when it comes to inspiration. In fact, I've prepared a "sermon" (I hate that word, it sounds so wimpy) and a Keynote presentation (Keynote > PowerPoint) on the topic of Biblical inspiration. I think I'll put up a thread with my study on this topic sometime soon. Suffice it to say that I believe wholeheartedly that God inspired the men that wrote the Bible, not the actual words.

Brother Tim 10-31-2008 01:16 PM

MC, there are a dozen or more verses that reference the WORDS, while only one references the SPEAKERS. If the men were inspired as opposed to the words, then why did the foundational verse on inspiration speak of the written words ("script"ure) and not the speakers?

Do you also apply inspiration to the translators of the KJB?


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