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Amanda S. 07-16-2009 12:30 PM

Hate the sin, love the sinner
 
I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically? If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Luke 07-16-2009 02:36 PM

It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.

greenbear 07-16-2009 03:14 PM

I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out. :)

greenbear 07-16-2009 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24159)
I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out. :)

Oops. The GWT judgement is after the Millennial Kingdom.

Amanda S. 07-16-2009 04:14 PM

Quote:

It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.
True, I was just giving a bit of history...

Are you saying that God only hated before the cruxifiction? And that Christ's death on the cross erased His hate? Obviously it erased the hate for those who accepted the gift of salvation as His blood covers all sin. But I am not convinced that Christ doesn't hate those who reject the sacrifice of His only Son.

I do agree that the context of the GWT Judgement seems to put this verse into perspective. Thanks for pointing that out...I'll study on that a bit more.

So often though people lightly throw around "Hate the sin, not the sinner" and really they are accusing you of hate because you are "condeming" a lifestyle or sin. Love to them is to ignore their sin and accept the person.

But to point out more Scripture David also says:

Quote:

Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
I am not suggesting hollering at passersby on the street that God hates them or that they are hated. That certainly would not win them over. You stated that very well when you said:

Quote:

...a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.
It is hard to really explain what I am getting at...I am not suggesting we as Christians go around with hatred in our hearts toward anyone. But rather dispel this idea that God is smiling down with pleasure at His creation and is not one we should fear.

Luke 07-16-2009 04:19 PM

Yeah, the saying is stupid. It is usually used by Christians to justify some pet sin they have - "Oh, it is okay that I do this, God loves me, he hates my sin, but he loves me". Or it is used by the world, but never in regards to any actual kind of sin, but always as a rebuke to Christians who are preaching against sin.

God is definitely not happy with sinners, but His anger has been appeased. He is not fuming mad because the blood is on the mercy seat, for ALL men (1 John 2:1-2).

greenbear 07-16-2009 05:10 PM

David must be looking towards the New Earth in that passage.

Forrest 07-16-2009 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24134)
I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically? If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Here's my take on it. Yes, I should hate sin but love the sinner. Paul certainly had a “hate” for sin. In context, he is clearly referencing sin here:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

And the Bible is very clear concerning loving the saved sinner as well as the lost sinner.

Love the saved sinner

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

He is speaking to the eleven remaining disciples of course, but this certainly applies to all who are in Christ Jesus. Christ loved (loves) us even though we are still sinners (meaning that we still commit sins) and now we should love one another as He loved us.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Love the lost sinner

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

It seems clear to me that since God loved me as a lost sinner, I should also love the lost sinner and proclaim the glorious gospel of truth, “…how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). I am changed in that God, the very essence of love, dwells in me through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The fruit of the Spirit is love.

Certainly there is scripture that supports the idea we should hate sin but love the sinner. :smile:

Amanda S. 07-16-2009 09:16 PM

Yes, I agree that we should certainly love the brethren. The Bible is very clear on that.

However, I am still not convinced that God "loves" the wicked, at least not in the way we think of love.

Quote:

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
If the Lord loveth righteousness, then He would hate unrighteousness. In this same passage it says He hates the wicked. There are so many more verses that state the Lord abhors, hates, laughs at the wicked etc...

Quote:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Quote:

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
I know you all are not ignorant to these passages. But I am wary of passing over this Scripture and excusing it away dispensationally.

Consider what Matthew Henry says:

Quote:

“He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”
Again, just some thoughts. I am not coming down dogmatically on either side...not yet anyway :)

Cody1611 07-16-2009 10:32 PM

I believe the love of God is found at the Cross and if the sinner rejects it he will not find God's love. It is hard to get around Psalms 5:5 and say that God loves everyone. I'm curious what does Dr. Ruckman say about this? I don't think I've heard him talk about it in his sermons.

Another thing to realize is that God's hate isn't like our hate. God wants people to come to the Cross, but at the same time. God sees a sinner as an enemy because of that sin in them.

Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Forrest 07-16-2009 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24191)
Yes, I agree that we should certainly love the brethren. The Bible is very clear on that.

However, I am still not convinced that God "loves" the wicked, at least not in the way we think of love.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

If the Lord loveth righteousness, then He would hate unrighteousness. In this same passage it says He hates the wicked. There are so many more verses that state the Lord abhors, hates, laughs at the wicked etc...

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Consider what Matthew Henry says:

“He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”

I know you all are not ignorant to these passages. But I am wary of passing over this Scripture and excusing it away dispensationally.

Again, just some thoughts. I am not coming down dogmatically on either side...not yet anyway :)

Greetings Sister Amanda. My answer on post #8 was an answer for your specific question:

Quote:

You wrote: I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically?
I answered yes there is and gave scripture as to why I believe that.

Concerning this question:

Quote:

You wrote: If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
The Bible is crystal clear.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The foolish shall not stand in His sight and He hatest all workers of iniquity. I don't know what there is to understand here. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

But the Bible is also very clear that God loves sinners. He loves me and I am a sinner. Remember, every thought, every word, and every deed is judged by a Holy, pure, righteous, and perfect all knowing, all powerful, ever present God. So what hope is there for this wretched life? Jesus Christ! Keep this in mind, those of us who are now in Christ and still commit acts of sin (and we do), will stand before God only because:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Concerning Psalms 11:5-7:

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

The Bible is once again very clear. "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright."

But here comes Jesus Christ again. How can we still commit sin and still stand before a righteous and Holy God? How can God love me when the Bible says he hates a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren?

Jesus Christ, that's how. I am righteous in Him! Not I but Christ!

Amanda S. 07-16-2009 11:17 PM

Forrest, I am grateful for your insight.
Yes, you did very well in your explanation of the Scriptures and answering my original question.
I am afraid I did a poor job in my last post as I jumbled thoughts and Scripture quotations.
Hopefully tomorrow I can post more on this in a more organized thought pattern.
And Cody1611 tomorrow I will type what Doc says in his Psalms commentary. It is not what most will want to hear :)

Cody1611 07-16-2009 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24208)
Forrest, I am grateful for your insight.
Yes, you did very well in your explanation of the Scriptures and answering my original question.
I am afraid I did a poor job in my last post as I jumbled thoughts and Scripture quotations.
Hopefully tomorrow I can post more on this in a more organized thought pattern.
And Cody1611 tomorrow I will type what Doc says in his Psalms commentary. It is not what most will want to hear :)

You can quote it, but I have his commentary on Psalms. Go ahead for the others though.

tonybones2112 07-17-2009 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 24152)
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.

No truer words were ever spoken, Luke. This is why I despise the ministry of Kirk Cameron so much, is his condemnatory manner with sinners and why I have refused some people to participate in the street ministry we have here.

I don't mean to stray from Amanda's question, I think she brings up however what is most important in the most important thing we exist for: Bearig Christ's name to Gentiles, kings, and children of Israel. I know of nowhere the phrase is found as quoted in Scripture with the exact wording, the precept is found in the Scriptures:

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is no "great commission" in the Scriptures, there are seven "great commissions" in the Scriptures. Five are to the 12 Apostles regarding the restoration of Israel, one to Paul personally, the last one in II Cor. is found above and the only operative one today.

Luke, I sense a compassion in sister Amanda for the lost, and I know your heart, and I'd be proud to have either or both on the street with me.

Grace and peace

Tony

Luke 07-17-2009 01:53 AM

It's not an issue I want to divide over either Bro Tony :)

I know for a fact that Cody and Vendetta Ride both believe God hates sinners (unbelievers) present tense. And yet both of them DO NOT tell sinners God hates them, unlike some street preachers I can think of and will publicly rebuke if they ever show their rants on this forum again (a few of them love to film their foul mouthed rants and then share them amongst the brethren, hoping for a few amens).

I have spent much time in email with one of them, even having some fellowship, helping him with some personal issues and praising God together, but he is unrepentant in his attitude. A recent facebook quote from him was "<name omitted> spent some time with some christians fellowshipping over the doctrine of God's hatred towards sinners".

That must have been an edifying fellowship...

"Praise the Lord God hates sinners"
"Thank you Lord that we are not like this here publican!"

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe God hates sinners now, or his anger is satisfied and God does not hate sinners now, we can all agree on one thing, without the blood of Christ applied, no man can stand before God, small or great. But our attitude towards sinners today is "God commendeth His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". And if that is God's attitude, it should be ours as well, and our message.

God bless

Jassy 07-17-2009 02:07 PM

I could be way off here - but I'll write what I believe from the scriptures. The Old Testament is primarily for Israel/Jews. It is, of course, directed to them and the LAW is directed to them. Sin was defined as the breaking of the Law and, therefore, ALL are guilty. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, we come into a NEW relationship with God. We become BLOOD-bought and God no longer sees our sin: past, present and future. We are covered by the blood of Christ. All of us had sin when we were saved. And all of us continue to have sin - since we are yet in that sinful Adamic body. Paul very wisely stated:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

It is important here to note the verb tenses. Paul says I AM carnal (present tense), sold (past tense - it's done!) under sin. For that which I do (present tense) I allow not:... (present tense), etc.

Paul is very clearly stating that he was STILL YET in a sinful state. He still sinned. And we, also, still sin.

I thank the LORD that, in my weaknesses, He is made STRONG. And when I do sin, I know that I am covered by His blood. That is something that I cannot EVER be righteous enough to do. Nor can I account it to myself - but the LORD has accounted it to me. It WAS, and remains, a FREE gift.

For that, I praise Him, who - in His work at the cross - accomplished salvation for me and FORGAVE me. It is finished - He did it and I know that I am forgiven - past, present and future.

Jassy

Forrest 07-17-2009 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jassy (Post 24234)
I could be way off here - but I'll write what I believe from the scriptures. The Old Testament is primarily for Israel/Jews. It is, of course, directed to them and the LAW is directed to them. Sin was defined as the breaking of the Law and, therefore, ALL are guilty. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, we come into a NEW relationship with God. We become BLOOD-bought and God no longer sees our sin: past, present and future. We are covered by the blood of Christ. All of us had sin when we were saved. And all of us continue to have sin - since we are yet in that sinful Adamic body. Paul very wisely stated:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

It is important here to note the verb tenses. Paul says I AM carnal (present tense), sold (past tense - it's done!) under sin. For that which I do (present tense) I allow not:... (present tense), etc.

Paul is very clearly stating that he was STILL YET in a sinful state. He still sinned. And we, also, still sin.

I thank the LORD that, in my weaknesses, He is made STRONG. And when I do sin, I know that I am covered by His blood. That is something that I cannot EVER be righteous enough to do. Nor can I account it to myself - but the LORD has accounted it to me. It WAS, and remains, a FREE gift.

For that, I praise Him, who - in His work at the cross - accomplished salvation for me and FORGAVE me. It is finished - He did it and I know that I am forgiven - past, present and future.

Jassy

Hello "Sassy" Jassy. :smile: (I just could not resist the obvious rhyme.) What is your understanding of these two references?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

This certainly does not apply to those who are now in Christ and washed by the precious blood. But what about the lost? Does God still hate all workers of iniquity and the wicked and him that loveth violence as the scripture says?

PaulB 07-17-2009 04:50 PM

Sin & the Sinner
 
I can see where Amanda is coming from:

2 Cor.5:11 “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;”

The cross of Christ was there to change men – not God, He remains the same regardless forever. To suggest that He isn’t angry with the wicked everyday is to say that God has changed and has now simply re-categorised child molesters, rapists, murderers and adulterers. People aren’t found guilty of sin on the basis of an act alone – they are sinners first. Sin is a state of the heart and thus their sinful acts are the manifestation of whom they truly are.
It isn’t just the acts that God condemns it is the people who carry out the acts. In other words – It isn’t that God just hates adultery being acted out (thus judging our ignorant mistakes) God is angry with rebellion (which is as the sin of witchcraft).

Yes Christ’s death is 100% acceptable before the Father on the behalf of repentant sinners, and He will in no wise cast out any that come to Him. But that doesn’t change the destiny of His enemies and their standing before Him (the cross hasn’t changed their position with God – if they remain in their rebellion they are now in a more serious position).

Ac.17:30-31 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

God bless

PaulB

greenbear 07-17-2009 06:49 PM

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isa*53:1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa*53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa*53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa*53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa*53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa*53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa*53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa*53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa*53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa*53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa*53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa*53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors
.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Ps*22:1 ¶ To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Ps*22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps*22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps*22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Ps*22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Ps*22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Ps*22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Ps*22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Ps*22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Ps*22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Ps*22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Isaiah 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

A rare instance where we are able to read the actual thoughts of Christ.

Isa*63:1 ¶ Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isa*63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
Isa*63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa*63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Isa*63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
Isa*63:6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Jassy 07-17-2009 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 24235)
Hello "Sassy" Jassy. :smile: (I just could not resist the obvious rhyme.) What is your understanding of these two references?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

This certainly does not apply to those who are now in Christ and washed by the precious blood. But what about the lost? Does God still hate all workers of iniquity and the wicked and him that loveth violence as the scripture says?

:pound: Brother Forrest! That cute little nickname made me laugh!! Thank you for the chuckle! (And sis Jennifer says that she will NEVER let me live that one down!)

Well, I believe that God LOVES, very tremendously!

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

AND

1 John 4:10 - Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Now many people have REJECTED that free gift. And I'm sure that God's wrath will come down upon them. We have to remember that the Tribulation WILL happen and it pertains to God's wrath on those that rejected God's supreme gift of His Son.

So to answer your question, God LOVES His creation - and that is why He gave His Son's BLOOD to pay the price for mankind's sins. However, the lost have REJECTED Him. God's Word clearly says that ALL have sinned and also that man is without excuse - because He has revealed Himself, in one way or another, to all of mankind.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

The Word of God tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is both the believers AND the UNbellievers. But one must BELIEVE to have that propitiation for our sins via that sacrifice.

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Jews are a past dispensation. We, by grace, are the Church in the present dispensation. And the Jews will again be in a future dispensation (currently they are blinded).

Jesus was God made manifest in the flesh. And He does not change!

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So, yes, God still hates the workers of iniquity. However, He loved them enough to give them the most precious GIFT: that of the BLOOD of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Sometimes it is confusing for people to understand. And I struggled with this myself... but the Bible says that I am covered by His BLOOD, and the Holy Spirit is in me, at the moment that I BELIEVED.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul cried out, in Romans 7:24 - O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The answer is JESUS CHRIST, which is clearly seen in the next verse 25:

Romans 7:25 - I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jassy

Amanda S. 07-17-2009 09:17 PM

Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:

Quote:

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.

Quote:

Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking ;)

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible :)

tonybones2112 07-18-2009 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24255)
Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:



But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.



God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking ;)

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible :)

Sister, I have no intention of picking apart anything you have to say. We had a woman in the forum a number of months ago and several men who were teaching Law and some weird Jewish fables revolving around the good ol' days of early Genesis period, they were stripped to the bones You make many valid points and comments that are worthy of responding to.

Amanda, when I was studying in college we had a course and a degree called "abnormal" psychology. That's no longer available to me, the time has long past for me to take any degree in it, I was a few hours short of a bachelors in this field. What was then "abnormal" is normal today. I'd like to approach "hatred of sinners" from that angle first.

When a man preaches that "God hates sinners" it's something known as "projecting", it's a mental defense mechanism against self-hatred. When a man preaches "God hates sinners" it's because he is trying to take the spotlight off himself, because he has a few pretty hideous sins in his life he is not telling us about. A man who preaches that "God hates sinners' is not a man I'd leave alone with a child or group of children. Sister, I'm not going to name names and produce court documents in my possession, if you feel God leads me to speak the truth, take my word for it.

Jack Hyles was one of the most vicious and fervent preachers against adultery I have ever known, Hyles was committing adultery with his personal secretary for over 20 years he preached against it.

Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man. I attended a church where the pastor withdrew support for the street ministry because he didn't want that street trash in the church.
Now, as individual Christians we can believe what we want. Sister, regarding the traditional Baptist doctrine you were born and raised into, I am your worst nightmare. Let each of us be fully persuaded in our own minds. But a man in the position of a pastor or evangelist, educator, author, who has the power to influence or sway large numbers of people teaches that "God hates sinners" that man is a murderer. He is condemning the lost to hell, because such a man does not want to witness, nor will witness to lost people, the lost is the reason you and I exist in Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If God hates sinners then let's just translate our own version of the Scriptures and when we do, we will say there is "no manuscript evidence" for the verse I just quoted you.

The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"? Kewl. I can show you Scripture that proves the existence of Santa Clause:

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Sure, Santa is God ain't He? He knows when you been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you been bad or good so be good for goddness sake? There you have it, I mean it's right in the Bible. The Dane Sinte Klaus, St. Nicolas, in the rolls of the Catholic Church as the patron saint of beer drinkers is God.

I'm sure God has hated select individuals. He hated Esau, and I'm sure his opinion of the future Anti-Christ, Judas Iscariot, is not a good one. The reason the tone of this response to you is a bit strong is because the teaching "God hates sinners" is a Satanic heresy, cultic, and like Calvinism, one of the greatest tools against personal evangelism out there.

Third and final thing I want to emphasize is why did God die for people he hated?

Matt. 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You know, prostitutes, murderers, crackheads, crank-cookers, child molesters, rapists, just dripped off Jesus Christ everywhere he went. You ever see the tearful writhing and hear the pitiful cries of the most hardened sinner as they came to Christ, and wonder why? Because Jesus Christ has mercy on them, Christians don't. People on the street hear me speak to my fellows about this or that, and they say, you speak as if there is something wrong with Christianity. I reply yes, only one thing wrong with Christianity, Christians.

We have "Calvinists" who are actually too shy, cowardly, and are ashamed of the gospel of Christ to witness for Him. If God hates sinners I guess Arthur Blessit walked 36000 miles for nothing.

Sister, when you've read this message, blot everything out around you and read it again. They pray about it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When we translate the God Hates Sinners Version, above is another verse we'll have to say there is "no manuscript evidence for".

Grace and peace sister Amanda

Tony

PaulB 07-18-2009 04:04 AM

God hates the sin
 
If there’s one thing that I get extremely uncomfortable with it is the volatile and aggressive nature of the street preachers who come across like Christian terrorist. They rant at people in a manner that gives the impression that they are in the mood for a fight with them.

As much as I admire their enthusiasm to face the public and not hold back I do question whether their evangelism is being driven by God’s love for the lost or (like Tony correctly put it) by their own inner condemnation of hidden sins.

I personally do not believe that God hates sinners but I do believe that He gets very angry with them! But one of my greatest concerns with the modern day gospel (that is, “Say a prayer and you’re in” Rick Warren/Brian McClaren type salvation) gives the impression that sin isn’t an issue and that God isn’t what He used to be.

Now before I go on I would like to say that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian, but one thing that I will do is look for any opportunity to present the gospel of Christ to sinners.

Personally I think that Jack Chick is a good basis to build upon as he always starts with the seriousness of sin and then leads to the cross. I do believe that God is angry with sinners and it is His long suffering that is holding back their due condemnation.

Love doesn’t avoid the truth about their state and the seriousness of that before a holy God, but wisdom should be applied to the situation – not an attitude of madness like some do and leave themselves looking like a man possessed.

In a gospel presentation I believe that we must be careful not to lose site of truth of the sinners stance before a holy God. Yes God loves sinners and Christ died for them but that is not the entire gospel message – it is part of it.

I honestly believe that it is the misrepresentation of the gospel message today that is producing the Christians that we are producing today. The fear of God is a clear evidence that a person has believed the God of the Bible and this is a fundamental element that has gone missing in 21st Century Christendom and gospel preaching.

The message today is more about acceptance and the individual than it is about the person and work of Christ. People come away thinking about their own importance rather than the authority of the Christ who seeks to purchase them.

If the seriousness of sin is overlooked or watered down in order to make the gopsel more acceptable - then the work of the cross is substituted for another gospel. The cross of Christ shows the whole of creation just how serious an issue sin truly is - If God could unleash all of His wrath, anger, judgement and hatred of sin upon His Only Begotten Son to save us - then should we avoid that truth?

To stand before God (as a sinner) before the cross was serious enough - but to stand there afterwards on the day of judgement (knowing that you had rejected salvation) then I would go as far as to say that the love of God for that individual is over!

1 Pt.15-17 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Forrest 07-18-2009 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 24275)
Sister, I have no intention of picking apart anything you have to say. We had a woman in the forum a number of months ago and several men who were teaching Law and some weird Jewish fables revolving around the good ol' days of early Genesis period, they were stripped to the bones You make many valid points and comments that are worthy of responding to.

Amanda, when I was studying in college we had a course and a degree called "abnormal" psychology. That's no longer available to me, the time has long past for me to take any degree in it, I was a few hours short of a bachelors in this field. What was then "abnormal" is normal today. I'd like to approach "hatred of sinners" from that angle first.

When a man preaches that "God hates sinners" it's something known as "projecting", it's a mental defense mechanism against self-hatred. When a man preaches "God hates sinners" it's because he is trying to take the spotlight off himself, because he has a few pretty hideous sins in his life he is not telling us about. A man who preaches that "God hates sinners' is not a man I'd leave alone with a child or group of children. Sister, I'm not going to name names and produce court documents in my possession, if you feel God leads me to speak the truth, take my word for it.

Jack Hyles was one of the most vicious and fervent preachers against adultery I have ever known, Hyles was committing adultery with his personal secretary for over 20 years he preached against it.

Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man. I attended a church where the pastor withdrew support for the street ministry because he didn't want that street trash in the church.
Now, as individual Christians we can believe what we want. Sister, regarding the traditional Baptist doctrine you were born and raised into, I am your worst nightmare. Let each of us be fully persuaded in our own minds. But a man in the position of a pastor or evangelist, educator, author, who has the power to influence or sway large numbers of people teaches that "God hates sinners" that man is a murderer. He is condemning the lost to hell, because such a man does not want to witness, nor will witness to lost people, the lost is the reason you and I exist in Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If God hates sinners then let's just translate our own version of the Scriptures and when we do, we will say there is "no manuscript evidence" for the verse I just quoted you.

The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"? Kewl. I can show you Scripture that proves the existence of Santa Clause:

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

Sure, Santa is God ain't He? He knows when you been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you been bad or good so be good for goddness sake? There you have it, I mean it's right in the Bible. The Dane Sinte Klaus, St. Nicolas, in the rolls of the Catholic Church as the patron saint of beer drinkers is God.

I'm sure God has hated select individuals. He hated Esau, and I'm sure his opinion of the future Anti-Christ, Judas Iscariot, is not a good one. The reason the tone of this response to you is a bit strong is because the teaching "God hates sinners" is a Satanic heresy, cultic, and like Calvinism, one of the greatest tools against personal evangelism out there.

Third and final thing I want to emphasize is why did God die for people he hated?

Matt. 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

You know, prostitutes, murderers, crackheads, crank-cookers, child molesters, rapists, just dripped off Jesus Christ everywhere he went. You ever see the tearful writhing and hear the pitiful cries of the most hardened sinner as they came to Christ, and wonder why? Because Jesus Christ has mercy on them, Christians don't. People on the street hear me speak to my fellows about this or that, and they say, you speak as if there is something wrong with Christianity. I reply yes, only one thing wrong with Christianity, Christians.

We have "Calvinists" who are actually too shy, cowardly, and are ashamed of the gospel of Christ to witness for Him. If God hates sinners I guess Arthur Blessit walked 36000 miles for nothing.

Sister, when you've read this message, blot everything out around you and read it again. They pray about it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When we translate the God Hates Sinners Version, above is another verse we'll have to say there is "no manuscript evidence for".

Grace and peace sister Amanda

Tony

Quote:

You wrote: Any man who preaches that "God hates sinners" is secretly preaching against himself. I don't want you in the same room, alone, with that man.
Personally, I've never heard, or preached a message that: "God Hates Sinners!" I am not suggesting it's never been done...but I've never heard it. Certainly in Christ we all know that we are reconciled, justified, sanctified, redeemed, and forgiven. Surely we, who are now saved and in Christ, know this very basic Biblical reality. There is absolutely no condemnation to the born-again believer--ever. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. There are plenty of scriptures that teach us that.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Yes, God is love. No doubt. Yes, God is longsuffering. No doubt. Yes, God is merciful, kind, giving, and full of grace. But how do you treat this scripture, brother?

Quote:

You wrote: The second thing I want to address is Scripture wresting. Can You show me Scripture that "God hates sinners"?
Psalms 5:4-5 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Would those scriptures above mean "all" workers of iniquity? Do those scriptures above actually say that God hates all the workers of iniquity, the wicked, and him that worketh violence? A simple yes or no will suffice. And if you think no, please explain to us why you believe that and to whom those verses above actually refer.

Forrest 07-18-2009 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24255)
God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross.

I agree, Sister.

And Jassy...I agree with you too.

Quote:

Jassy wrote: So, yes, God still hates the workers of iniquity. However, He loved them enough to give them the most precious GIFT: that of the BLOOD of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Sometimes it is confusing for people to understand. And I struggled with this myself... but the Bible says that I am covered by His BLOOD, and the Holy Spirit is in me, at the moment that I BELIEVED.

PaulB 07-18-2009 11:01 AM

Amanda & Forest
 
I do think that you are onto something here because as I see it we must never overlook the fact that sin is the rebellion of sinners – yes sin is an act, but it is the outworkings of the heart (people sin because their nature is evil and not because they are unaware that God loves them). Christ will judge and condemn sinners to the lake of fire forever (not just the memory of their outward acts – but the actual people who carried them out).

Now concerning the idea that God was a God of wrath in the OT and that now in NT He has been changed into a God of tolerance is totally unscriptural. In the OT we had the law (but that doesn’t mean to say that only the Israelis who disobeyed it were transgressors), it means that everyone was a transgressor.

In the NT it is very similar in the sense that those who are under covenant are held up as examples of their owner – but it differs greatly when it applies to the world (as they are not under grace, but a slow ticking clock).

Christians are under grace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the entire human race is under that same grace. They are still enemies of God (even though His love has been made manifest to them) but like I said earlier, it only intensifies their present position as His enemies unless they respond to that love and hand over the reigns.

There are many occasions where God’s anger at sinners (not just their acts) are illustrated in the NT:

Mt.23:13-15 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Rv.6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Rv.14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rv.16:16 “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”

It just doesn’t ring true to me that the only real crime that sinners are guilty of under this “new dispensation of grace” is that they send themselves to a lost eternity because they were uninformed about a Jesus who loved them and that God was powerless to do anything.

To even hint at the thought that He wasn’t angry with them – but only their works is totally unscriptural.

Rm.2:5-8 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”

Mt.22:2-7 “The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Hb.10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You just need to listen to men like Art Katz to be convinced of the mighty acts of God against His enemies.

God bless

PaulB

Forrest 07-18-2009 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24299)
I do think that you are onto something here because as I see it we must never overlook the fact that sin is the rebellion of sinners – yes sin is an act, but it is the outworkings of the heart (people sin because their nature is evil and not because they are unaware that God loves them). Christ will judge and condemn sinners to the lake of fire forever (not just the memory of their outward acts – but the actual people who carried them out).

Now concerning the idea that God was a God of wrath in the OT and that now in NT He has been changed into a God of tolerance is totally unscriptural. In the OT we had the law (but that doesn’t mean to say that only the Israelis who disobeyed it were transgressors), it means that everyone was a transgressor.

In the NT it is very similar in the sense that those who are under covenant are held up as examples of their owner – but it differs greatly when it applies to the world (as they are not under grace, but a slow ticking clock).

Christians are under grace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the entire human race is under that same grace. They are still enemies of God (even though His love has been made manifest to them) but like I said earlier, it only intensifies their present position as His enemies unless they respond to that love and hand over the reigns.

There are many occasions where God’s anger at sinners (not just their acts) are illustrated in the NT:

Mt.23:13-15 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Rv.6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Rv.14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rv.16:16 “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”

It just doesn’t ring true to me that the only real crime that sinners are guilty of under this “new dispensation of grace” is that they send themselves to a lost eternity because they were uninformed about a Jesus who loved them and that God was powerless to do anything.

To even hint at the thought that He wasn’t angry with them – but only their works is totally unscriptural.

Rm.2:5-8 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”

Mt.22:2-7 “The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Hb.10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You just need to listen to men like Art Katz to be convinced of the mighty acts of God against His enemies.

God bless

PaulB

Greetings Brother Paul. I agree with you that the lost will face the wrath of God. I am reminded of Amanda's specific question on her original post:

Quote:

If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
There has been ample explanation to how a person reconciles the "godly attitude" (Hate the sin/love the sinner) with Psalms 5:5 which says God hates all the workers of iniquity.

Perhaps this is what needs to be said. I have yet to find a verse that exhorts, admonishes, teaches, commands, or encourages me or any other human being to "hate" the sinner.

But based on Amanda's reference to Psalms 5:5, the question of whether or not God HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY is being discussed. At least that's kind of where I took it. We are not really discussing the anger, wrath, or displeasure of God toward sin. But His hatred for the worker of iniquity. The question at hand, based on Psalms 5:5, is does God still hate all workers of iniquity?

Some of us say based on our understanding of the word of God, He does.

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 01:06 PM

My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way. :)

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

Quote:

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Quote:

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:

Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

Quote:

JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous...” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy.” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

MATTHEW HENRY’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”
And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.

PaulB 07-18-2009 01:36 PM

Hates the sin or the sinner
 
Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB

Forrest 07-18-2009 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24306)
My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way. :)

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

Quote:

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Quote:

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:

Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.

Psalms 139:21-22 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Amanda, regarding the scriptures above, the only thing I point out is that they are pre-death, pre-burial, and pre-resurrection of Jesus Christ. I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.

Also, concerning your statement:

Quote:

I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some.
Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Forrest 07-18-2009 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24311)
Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB

It is clearer (somewhat). :smile: Based on your clarification, we are in agreement that God hates all the workers of iniquity.

Quote:

You wrote: I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see as a person whom God hates.
Brother Paul, in the quote below I do not understand why you are using the words "displeasing" or "no pleasure" when the Holy Bible says "hatest".

Quote:

You wrote: But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!
Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 02:20 PM

Quote:

But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature.
Bro. Paul careful not to water down the Scriptures here. :) Such a hard thing to say for us in this effiminate society we live in isn't it? :)

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 02:24 PM

Bro. Forrest,
Quote:

Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Ya got me. :)

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 02:26 PM

Quote:

Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?
Bro. Forrest, I believe he's almost there...Just. So. Hard. To. Spit. It. Out.

:)
Maybe if we can convince him to type it really fast then hit post while closing his eyes :D

PaulB 07-18-2009 03:21 PM

Amanda (I'm closing my eyes!)
 
Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB
:amen:

Forrest 07-18-2009 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24333)
Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB
:amen:

No harm here, brother. And I appreciate you letting your nay be nay and your yea be yea. :smile:

Amanda S. 07-18-2009 09:11 PM

Bro. Forrest you asked:

Quote:

I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.
No, I know not of any Scripture that says such.

PaulB 07-19-2009 02:50 AM

Bro Forrest
 
Thanks Bro Forrest – I always try and make my yea yea and nay nay but it is so easy to get misunderstood on a subject such as this – because if you were to ask me does God hate all sinners? And I say 100% absolutely yes! Then the next post goes on to say “but everyone is a sinner, EVEN THE REDEEMED” then I have to start re-addressing the entire issue from a completely different perspective. So in order to avoid endless posts I decided to give the best overall picture that was possible for me to do so. The trouble is, that the people who believe what I believe then think that I am skipping around the issue.

God bless

PaulB

Amanda S. 07-19-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24382)
Thanks Bro Forrest – I always try and make my yea yea and nay nay but it is so easy to get misunderstood on a subject such as this – because if you were to ask me does God hate all sinners? And I say 100% absolutely yes! Then the next post goes on to say “but everyone is a sinner, EVEN THE REDEEMED” then I have to start re-addressing the entire issue from a completely different perspective. So in order to avoid endless posts I decided to give the best overall picture that was possible for me to do so. The trouble is, that the people who believe what I believe then think that I am skipping around the issue.

God bless

PaulB

Bro. Paul, I know exactly what you are speaking of. Agreed.

greenbear 07-21-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24255)
Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:
Quote:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:



But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.



God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking ;)

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible :)

Quote:

However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:
Quote:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Quote:

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him.
Huh?

Quote:

I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased?
Oh................. huh?

Quote:

Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.
Oh.......... so God only hates sinners after they are dead. Didn't you just prove that God doesn't hate sinners that are alive right now?

But you also said (same post):
Quote:

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.


Quote:

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:

Quote:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.

Quote:
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So, Jesus didn't love sinners before Calvary? He must have been willing to die for sinners because He knew He would love them after Calvary. Yeah, that sounds good.

Except that:
Quote:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Oops.
God loved the world (sinners, he didn't come to die for the Earth, He came to die for people who are sinners). And He loved them before He gave his only begotten Son.

Quote:

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Oops again. Jesus said this to his disciples before Calvary. Were his disciples not sinners? I guess they must have been righteous since Christ said He said "as I have loved you" and He didn't love sinners before Calvary.

Quote:

He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.
I believe that Jesus is God. And Jesus said that he who has seen Him has seen the Father.

Here are a few scriptures that make it pretty clear that Jesus didn't hate people (people=sinners):

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (I'm not an English major but the verb tense is continuous, or whatever. It's not future tense.

John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Now you might argue that God only loves those that He predestinates, or foresees will believe in Him at some point. Maybe that is true, but I don't think so. He loved the rich young man who walked away. Jesus gave no indication that the young man would change his mind and follow Him. And scripture never says so. In fact, Jesus used the young man as an example of how hard it is for the rich to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Quote:

Mark 10:21-23 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Here Jesus is mourning the fate of His people. Why has he often yearned to gather them under his wings if He doesn't love them?

Quote:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

This whole topic has disturbing similarities to Calvinism in how it could cause spiritual pride and callousness toward those we are called to reach for Christ. "God" loves me but He "hates" sinners. God's hatred of sinners is taken out of the context of the whole testimony of God's plan of redemption for mankind and placed under a microscope for our self-satisfied examination.

Quote:

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


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