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johnlf 05-22-2009 07:26 PM

The Two Witnesses
 
Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Letís begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:

11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
11:5
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11:11
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



First note the length of the days of their prophecy, 1260 days or three and one half years. Then note the powers of the two witnesses. They can cause it to not rain for three and one half years, turn water to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. First, who in the Bible caused it to not rain for three and one half years? The Book of James tells us:


5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.



Next, who had power over waters to turn them to blood and to smite the earth with all plagues? The Book of Exodus tells us:


7:20
And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.




9:13
And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
9:14
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.



So, as you can tell, I am going to argue that these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. But why would God send back Moses and Elijah? One clue comes from The Book of Malachi :


4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.




So, we already know from the Scriptures that Elijah is to come back before the day of the Lord, but what about Moses? The Book of 2 Kings tells us that Elijah is still alive because he was taken alive into heaven:



2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.



So, Elijah is still alive and is able to come back and die in Jerusalem like the Scriptures say. But what about Moses? How can Moses come back and die when the scripture tells us that he is already dead? Or is he? The Book of Deuteronomy tells us:



34:5
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
34:6
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.



Notice that no man buried Moses, God buried him. Why? What if God was planning to resurrect him there? If God resurrected him right after he died then he could still be alive today if God is preserving him alive. And this does not seem as unlikely as it first appears in light of the following verse. The Book of Jude tells us:


1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.




Have you ever wondered why Michael was contending with Satan over the body of Moses. Could it be that the Lord was going to resurrect him? But why would he have to resurrect him at that time unless Moses needed to be alive for something that would come later? Let us look at where the Scriptures tell us the prophets all die? And Moses and Elijah, being arguably two of the greatest prophets in the old testament, should certainly die where the rest of their fellow prophets died. And whereís that? The Book of Luke tells use:


13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.



So, we know that the powers of these two witnesses are like those of Moses and Elijah. And we know that Elijah will be sent back before the day of the Lord. We also know that Elijah never died and thereís a very good chance that Moses is still alive after being resurrected right after his death. Finally we know that Jesus himself said that it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Now let us examine what is referred to as the mount of transfiguration, the Book of Luke tells us:




9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29
And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
9:31
Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.



Did you ever wonder what Jesus was talking to Moses and Elijah about up on that mount? Well the scripture tells us very clearly that the topic of the conversation was the imminent decease of Jesus, which he would accomplish at Jerusalem. Did Jesus need to consult them about his imminent decease? Or perhaps they needed to consult him because they as well were going to have to face their own decease in Jerusalem.


I am convinced that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah, and I think the evidence from the scriptures bears this out. Godís Word is a beautiful tapestry of his thoughts and this is another wonderful example of that. Oh that men would praise the Lord for his wonderful works!



Book of 1 Corinthians

2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

tonybones2112 05-22-2009 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlf (Post 20466)
Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Letís begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:

11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
11:5
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11:11
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



First note the length of the days of their prophecy, 1260 days or three and one half years. Then note the powers of the two witnesses. They can cause it to not rain for three and one half years, turn water to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. First, who in the Bible caused it to not rain for three and one half years? The Book of James tells us:


5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.



Next, who had power over waters to turn them to blood and to smite the earth with all plagues? The Book of Exodus tells us:


7:20
And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.




9:13
And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
9:14
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.



So, as you can tell, I am going to argue that these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. But why would God send back Moses and Elijah? One clue comes from The Book of Malachi :


4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.




So, we already know from the Scriptures that Elijah is to come back before the day of the Lord, but what about Moses? The Book of 2 Kings tells us that Elijah is still alive because he was taken alive into heaven:



2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.



So, Elijah is still alive and is able to come back and die in Jerusalem like the Scriptures say. But what about Moses? How can Moses come back and die when the scripture tells us that he is already dead? Or is he? The Book of Deuteronomy tells us:



34:5
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
34:6
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.



Notice that no man buried Moses, God buried him. Why? What if God was planning to resurrect him there? If God resurrected him right after he died then he could still be alive today if God is preserving him alive. And this does not seem as unlikely as it first appears in light of the following verse. The Book of Jude tells us:


1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.




Have you ever wondered why Michael was contending with Satan over the body of Moses. Could it be that the Lord was going to resurrect him? But why would he have to resurrect him at that time unless Moses needed to be alive for something that would come later? Let us look at where the Scriptures tell us the prophets all die? And Moses and Elijah, being arguably two of the greatest prophets in the old testament, should certainly die where the rest of their fellow prophets died. And whereís that? The Book of Luke tells use:


13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.



So, we know that the powers of these two witnesses are like those of Moses and Elijah. And we know that Elijah will be sent back before the day of the Lord. We also know that Elijah never died and thereís a very good chance that Moses is still alive after being resurrected right after his death. Finally we know that Jesus himself said that it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Now let us examine what is referred to as the mount of transfiguration, the Book of Luke tells us:




9:28
And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29
And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
9:31
Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.



Did you ever wonder what Jesus was talking to Moses and Elijah about up on that mount? Well the scripture tells us very clearly that the topic of the conversation was the imminent decease of Jesus, which he would accomplish at Jerusalem. Did Jesus need to consult them about his imminent decease? Or perhaps they needed to consult him because they as well were going to have to face their own decease in Jerusalem.


I am convinced that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah, and I think the evidence from the scriptures bears this out. Godís Word is a beautiful tapestry of his thoughts and this is another wonderful example of that. Oh that men would praise the Lord for his wonderful works!



Book of 1 Corinthians

2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Re 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And what if their executions take place around December 25, John? How many Catholics go in the Rapture, and how many are left behind?

Very few and a whoooole lot.

Grace and peace

Tony

Winman 05-30-2009 11:29 AM

John

I thought your study was excellent, I have wondered who the two witnesses in Revelations would be myself.

The only problem I see is Moses. He has already died, so if he were to die again, this would be two deaths. That is not found in scripture for a believer.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Then again, I could be wrong, this verse does not say a believer could not die a second death, it says they shall not be hurt of the second death.

However, Enoch would qualify, as he did not die.

kevinvw 05-30-2009 12:42 PM

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death is eternity in the lake of fire, not dying a second time. The son of the Shunamite woman died twice, Lazarus died twice, and many other people died twice, but I think we can say at least Lazarus is not waiting for the lake of fire.

Winman 05-30-2009 01:17 PM

I am aware of those who were raised from the dead. But what about Hebrews 9:27?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I have always wondered if those who were raised from the dead died the "first" death?

greenbear 05-30-2009 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 21124)
I am aware of those who were raised from the dead. But what about Hebrews 9:27?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I have always wondered if those who were raised from the dead died the "first" death?

Some die twice like Lazarus and the girl that Jesus resurrected. Both times they die is considered the first death. There is only the first death and the second death mentioned in scripture. The second death is the Lake of Fire so lazarus, et al have to have experienced the first death twice.

Alternately, some don't die the first death, namely enoch and the translated saints.

tonybones2112 05-30-2009 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 21124)
I am aware of those who were raised from the dead. But what about Hebrews 9:27?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I have always wondered if those who were raised from the dead died the "first" death?

What kept Christ from raising Lazarus from the dead, Win? And so what can keep Him from raising Moses to die a second time? The Bible very clearly teaches against reincarnation, but Paul and Christ clearly state also Judas Iscariot will rise from the dead as the anti-Christ. Judas died and was judged, he went to "his own place". Enoch turned water to blood?

Grace and peace brother

Tony

greenbear 05-30-2009 02:46 PM

The First Death and the Second Death don't refer to how many times you have died. They are better defined as places or destinations. When a person dies the first death today he goes to Heaven or Hell. When he dies the second death he goes into the Lake of Fire. No one can die the second death until the Great White Throne Judgement.

Winman 05-30-2009 07:10 PM

Greenbear

That sounds nice, but my Bible says ONCE in Hebrews 9:27. So to me, the Bible does indeed say you only die once (the 1st death) and then the judgement. The Bible does indeed mention the number of times you die.

The definition for "once" in this verse is:

1) once, one time

2) once for all

Seems pretty clear and simple to me.

greenbear 05-30-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 21170)
Greenbear

That sounds nice, but my Bible says ONCE in Hebrews 9:27. So to me, the Bible does indeed say you only die once (the 1st death) and then the judgement. The Bible does indeed mention the number of times you die.

The definition for "once" in this verse is:

1) once, one time

2) once for all

Seems pretty clear and simple to me.

Win,
That sounds nice, too, except that some people die twice and some don't die at all. How do you account for that? Lazarus didn't die the second death even though he died twice because the second death is the lake of fire. i struggled with this for years and this is the only way I can reconcile it. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see what the alternative would be.

Jen

tonybones2112 05-31-2009 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 21210)
Win,
That sounds nice, too, except that some people die twice and some don't die at all. How do you account for that? Lazarus didn't die the second death even though he died twice because the second death is the lake of fire. i struggled with this for years and this is the only way I can reconcile it. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see what the alternative would be.

Jen

Jen, brother Win, I'm going to add a thread in Bible Studies called The Man Who Could Not Die that will cover this verse in Hebrews and specifically Enoch and The Rapture of the Church should clear up all questions on this.

Grace and peace

Tony

Biblestudent 05-31-2009 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 21170)
Greenbear

That sounds nice, but my Bible says ONCE in Hebrews 9:27. So to me, the Bible does indeed say you only die once (the 1st death) and then the judgement. The Bible does indeed mention the number of times you die.

The definition for "once" in this verse is:

1) once, one time

2) once for all

Seems pretty clear and simple to me.

It looks like, in the Bible, there are exceptions to that rule.

tonybones2112 06-01-2009 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 21274)
It looks like, in the Bible, there are exceptions to that rule.

Enoch being the Second Witness was the teaching of Herbert W. Armstrong for the same reason. Men can't "die twice". Of course, Armstrong couldn't put two verses together with two bulldozers and 16 tons of Super Glue.

The Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah, the two Candlesticks and the Two Olive Trees that stand before the throne of God in Zechariah. Moses turned water to blood, Elijah held up the rain. I'll be doing a Bible Study on Enoch as soon as the antibiotics kicks in.

Grace and peace

Tony

greenbear 06-07-2009 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 21223)
Jen, brother Win, I'm going to add a thread in Bible Studies called The Man Who Could Not Die that will cover this verse in Hebrews and specifically Enoch and The Rapture of the Church should clear up all questions on this.

Grace and peace

Tony

Hi, brother Tony. I always appreciate it when you share your insights into the scriptures. I would like to see your study on Heb 9:27 if you wouldn't mind posting it. Thanks! Hope you are feeling better.

grace and peace,

Jennifer

CKG 06-07-2009 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 21170)
Greenbear

That sounds nice, but my Bible says ONCE in Hebrews 9:27. So to me, the Bible does indeed say you only die once (the 1st death) and then the judgement. The Bible does indeed mention the number of times you die.

The definition for "once" in this verse is:

1) once, one time

2) once for all

Seems pretty clear and simple to me.

The emphasis of Hebrews 9:27 seems to be judgment more than a statement about how many times a person dies. As far as death it is a statement about people in general and not everyone specifically. The Bible speaks of a group of people who will not experience death at all.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

greenbear 06-07-2009 09:22 PM

Quote:

CKG
The emphasis of Hebrews 9:27 seems to be judgment more than a statement about how many times a person dies. As far as death it is a statement about people in general and not everyone specifically.
CKG,
That is very well said. The second death is when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire following the great white throne judgement.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Biblestudent 06-08-2009 12:19 AM

Some reasons why I believe the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are Moses and Elijah:
1. The miracles done by the two witnesses are the same miracles done by Moses and Elijah.
2. Moses and Elijah are two people that are often associated with the Second Coming:
1) Moses and Elijah are both mentioned by the OT prophets in connection with the coming of Christ.
2) Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration, which is a foreshadow of the Second Coming.

tonybones2112 06-08-2009 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 21779)
Hi, brother Tony. I always appreciate it when you share your insights into the scriptures. I would like to see your study on Heb 9:27 if you wouldn't mind posting it. Thanks! Hope you are feeling better.

grace and peace,

Jennifer

On it's way sister, I don't have bronchitis, I have 1st stage non-specific pneumonia. Ain;t the first time I been misdiagnosed and won't be the last.

grace and peace

Tony

tonybones2112 06-08-2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 21799)
The emphasis of Hebrews 9:27 seems to be judgment more than a statement about how many times a person dies. As far as death it is a statement about people in general and not everyone specifically. The Bible speaks of a group of people who will not experience death at all.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)

Excellent point Craig, and also sound, Biblical truth. Enoch is a Bible type, a like figure, not of the church or of the Rapture, but those alive when Christ Raptures the church and will not taste death.

Grace and peace

Tony

premio53 06-14-2009 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinvw (Post 21121)
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death is eternity in the lake of fire, not dying a second time. The son of the Shunamite woman died twice, Lazarus died twice, and many other people died twice, but I think we can say at least Lazarus is not waiting for the lake of fire.

The only problem isn't dying twice but the fact that Moses will already have a glorified body, either at the time of Christ's resurrection or at the time of the rapture. He could not die again in a glorified body. I go with Enoch and Elijah.

Biblestudent 06-14-2009 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premio53 (Post 22120)
The only problem isn't dying twice but the fact that Moses will already have a glorified body, either at the time of Christ's resurrection or at the time of the rapture. He could not die again in a glorified body. I go with Enoch and Elijah.

Hi!
1. I don't think anyone got a glorified body at the time of Christ's resurrection. Just like Lazarus being restored to life, so were the bodies at that time; they died again a natural death after being restored to life.
2. I don't think Moses and all the OT saints will be included at the Rapture of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. I see in Scripture that Job, Daniel, Martha, and even John, Peter, James, and Jude are looking forward to their "First Resurrection", which is going to happen at the Second Advent (Rev. 20:4-6).

Here's my opinion:
I believe Moses and Elijah will be restored to life and then die again in their natural bodies during the Tribulation period, and then resurrected. Of course, they will have to eat the tree of life during the Millennium to live forever.

HowlerMonkey 06-20-2009 10:31 PM

This is an interesting thread to me, thanks to the OP'er for posting it.

I think almost everyone agrees that one of the Two Witnesses will be Elijah. Most people suggest either Moses or Enoch as the second witness for the reasons stated above.

I am not settled on who the second witness is, but I think the Apostle John could also be a contender. People who argue in John's favor often site the following:

Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Interesting to consider that a 2000 year old John is still around somewhere waiting for his time to die in the Trib!

chette777 06-20-2009 10:52 PM

here is my view.

It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time.

or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God.

also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them.

Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

tonybones2112 06-21-2009 03:47 PM

Enoch: The Man Who Will Never Die
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22442)
here is my view.

It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time.

or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God.

also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them.

Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Chette, what really makes me marvel is all the people who read the Bible, study the Bible, and at the same time don't believe the Bible. The question me and God have for you is underlined below:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Why are you denying the power of God to raise from the dead? Because that's exactly what you do when you park at Hebrews 9 and say "...absolutely no way, the Bible says it..." Lazarus died twice. The young girl in Luke 8 died twice. Eutychius in Acts 20 died twice. "It's appointed unto men once to die..." and then Christ tells the Apostles and disciples:

Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Jesus told John's disciples:

Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

All these people were dead and raised to life to die again. One death plus one death equals two deaths. Why did God write Hebrews 9:27 and then raise certain people to life, why is Elijah coming back to earth to die the first time and Moses the second time, since we've seen certain selected people died twice?

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Are you going to allow God to glorify himself or stick with a private interpretation?

Enoch cannot be the second witness for three reasons:

1. Enoch is a Gentile, not a Jew. Enoch did not receive the sign of the covenant(circumcision), there were no Jews until Abraham.
2. There are no records in Scripture Enoch ever performed any of the following:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Only two men fit this description: Elijah for the first, and Moses is the second witness. Read Exodus 7:17 to Exodus 12:33. Read the book of Revelation, read the plagues in Revelation and see that the plagues that will smite the earth are the same plagues that smote Egypt in Exodus 7-12.

3. Enoch cannot die. Not now or ever. Enoch already has a glorified body:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are people who will be alive at the Calling out of the Church from the world who will never die, just like Enoch. That is why I said that Enoch is a Bible type of those saints alive at the "Rapture". Enoch never died and never will, there are possibly people alive today who will never die. How is I Thess. 4:16 reconciled with Hebrews 9:27? Can you answer that question or are you going to blow me off to Ruckman and Harry Ironside's private interpretations as Bro. Parrish did?

Chette, the reason I have not been active in the forum for the last couple weeks is two reasons: The forum is becoming like FFF: Contentious name-callers is the first reason. The second reason is I used to spend a lot of time writing messages and responding to messages that are read, and not studied, and if studied not believed.

At one time I instructed a Sunday School Bible study of 16 kids aged 8-12 in Isaiah 28:9-13 and was asked, can we use a concordance? I said most definitely, that's why concordances were made. I gave them 3 questions to study: 1. What was the "star" of Bethlehem 2. Who is the anti-Christ? 3 Who are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11? I got these answers:

1. An angel
2. Judas Iscariot
3. Moses and Elijah

Why is it children can get what grown adults either can't or won't?

Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Brother, I can't come and read, study, and believe your Bible for you. You have to set the private interpretations of others and yourself aside before God will give you understanding in anything. Now, you are free(until Islam takes your country and mine)to believe what you wish.

Grace and peace to you brother Chette.

Tony

chette777 06-21-2009 06:36 PM

actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?

but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either.

Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses.

we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation.

God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too.

And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats.

the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation.

sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true

but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan?

Biblestudent 06-21-2009 08:07 PM

Brother Chette, you might consider the fact that Elijah and Moses have been prophesied by Malachi and foreshadowed in Matthew to signal the Lord's Second Coming.

chette777 06-22-2009 12:10 AM

Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so. Mt 11:7-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that?

Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses? the previous verses state no it does not. I made my conclusion based on the scriptures that it was appointed for and to die once than face judgement. What Tbones forgot is that Christians are already dead in Christ and our Judgement is already done one the cross. so our rapture fits as we are all dead in Christ. 2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Biblestudent 06-22-2009 12:20 AM

Bro. Chette,
The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) can also not be ignored. It is what Peter wrote about when he said we were "eyewitnesses of his majesty" (referring to the Second Coming). Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah being with Christ, and Peter later wrote that this is a foresight of the Second Coming.

Also, Enoch never did one of the miracles done by any of the two witnesses.

The three major reasons why I'm convinced that the Two Witnesses had to be Moses and Elijah is because:
1. PROPHECY: OT prophets have been prophesying the coming of the two, or the prophets have associated the names of the two with the Second Coming. There is no prophecy of the scripture anywhere that ever indicates the return of Enoch.
2. TRANSFIGURATION: The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) is a preview of the Second Coming (according to Peter). Moses and Elijah, not Moses and Enoch, appeared.
3. REVELATION: In Revelation 11, the two witnesses can only be identified by what they did and by what happened to them. The miracles they did had been done by both Moses and Elijah. Enoch did no miracles whatsoever.

So far, that's all I have!:)

tonybones2112 06-22-2009 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22492)
actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?

but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either.

Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses.

we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation.

God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too.

And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats.

the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation.

sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true

but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan?

Brother, you'll pardon me again, but you still can't get out of the Book Of Chette. I've said this before, I'll continue to say it: You try and bend the Scriptures around your private interpretations, the Scriptures don't bend, they bend you. You're dead set on having a Burger King Bible and a Burger King Theology: Have It My Way. Nowhere does the Bible specifically say that Judas Iscariot is the Anti-Christ, the Beast Of The Bottomless Pit. You have to study two verses written by Paul and Jesus Christ to see it. Nowhere does the Bible specifically state that the water baptism of lev. 8 is the same water baptism of Matt. 3, Mark 16, Acts 2 and all the others, if you say it isn't is because you haven't studied the 412 verses that says it is the same baptism. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say plain and open-faced in one verse, "the Lord Jesus Christ is God, The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God" Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say "Every single verse of 36,000 verses in the Scriptures applies to the Lord Jesus Christ". They do, every period and comma if you study them. God chose to breath into and make alive a book divided into over 36,000 verses, not 36. You have to study to show yourself approved unto God, you have to be a workman, it takes labor and work to study the Scriptures. Solomon said in the OT that much study is wearying to the flesh, we still study the Scriptures. I'm not the only person who struggled and sweated with Tandi and her convoluted SDA theology, you gave her good answers yourself, all of us wrote her what amounts to a small book trying to get her into studying her Bible and not the Book Of Tandi; I typed so much to her my hand, which has nerve damage, was numb for a week. I had to type any messages afterwards with a pencil.

Brother, I'm not trying to mean. If you want to believe the two witnesses are Frank Sinatra and Ozzy Osborne, you're going to believe what you want to. Who the two witnesses are in Rev. 11 is not going to put one lost sinner into the Body of Christ, only the preaching of the cross will do that. And unless you apply Isaiah 28 to your Bible study the preaching of the cross is the only thing you're going to know.

You'll pardon me again, I say this with charity, the statement on Enoch and the Flood is probably the silliest thing I've read in this forum and equal only to the grasping at straws of one member who tried to say Babtist water baptism and the Spirit baptism of I Cor. 12:13 was "one baptism" becasue a husband and wife are "one flesh" in the Water Baptism thread, the same thing the Church of Christ teaches. Enoch cannot die in Rev. 11 without being "untranslated".What did Enoch do that caused God to give him such favor?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Chette, your "interpretation" methods would say to me, oh, unless I see Enoch's scars I will not believe, all flesh is as grass, all have sinned, all our righteousness is a filthy rags, including Enoch's...Brother, you can't tell God what to do. You and I are going to die someday and be absent from the body and present with Him and I don;t want to die because I fear the manner of my death and I'm going to grab every AK-47 I can get my hands on to keep from dying, but it's God will and I have to do it. If the Scriptures say Lucifer was "the annointed cherub" out of five it means he was the chief cherub of those five and chief created being whether we want him to be or not.

Chette, you skimmed my message, you didn't read it. If you did read it, you didn't study it. If you did study it, you don't believe it. So why take the trouble to write this? Two reasons: You are my brother in Christ, and someone will read it and believe it and see you can't bend the Scriptures around your interpretations, the Scriptures bend you.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Biblestudent 06-22-2009 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22508)
Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so.

John the Baptist had the "spirit and power of Elijah" and he partially fulfilled Malachi's prophecy. Elijah appeared in Matthew 17 after John the Baptist died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22508)
And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see

But Moses appeared with Jesus in Matthew 17.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22508)
I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that?

As I've said, there are two names associated with the Coming of Christ as prophesied by Malachi:
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

The key is Matthew 17. Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. According to Peter, what they witnessed with their eyes and heard with their ears was the Second Coming.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN we were with him in the holy mount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22508)
Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses?

If it's a "two-part prophecy", I think it has to be actually Moses and Elijah.

I'm sure it can't be Enoch. The two witnesses were not required to not have experienced death. We identify them because of their miracles, not because they have never experienced death. To put a requirement that they not experience death before that has no strong Scriptural support. Their qualification, credential, identification, or whatever we call that is that they do those kinds of miracles, which all have been done by Moses and Elijah.

I think the key to the whole matter is these scriptures:
Malachi 4
Matthew 17
2 Peter 1

chette777 06-22-2009 01:54 AM

Mal 4:4 does not say anything about Moses coming again. I agree that the partial fulfillment.

Yeah I agree and I will not rule out that it will be the literal Moses and Elijah. right no requirement to have not died once. But God's word would not be true if anything goes against even one scripture so for a man to die twice in this life and it not be the second death of Rev. 19? you see the problem if men are appointed once to die then judgement Moses has already died and now must face judgement GWT but his name is written in the book of life.

you will notice as many do not all three of those scripture deal solely with Israel.

Tbones,

I have not bent any scriptures I simple took them for what they say. not what they mean. I also keep in mind the whole context and Gods character which can't be violated. you need not me to quote you scriptures for you know which I am speaking of.

I think you need to take a chill pill about the BK thing and relax bro. man you sound like you are wound up tighter than a clock spring.

Elijah was taken up as was Enoch. Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 2Kings 2:9-11 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Hebrews tells us he was translated. 1Cor 15 never calls what takes place a translation.

The context of Hebrews is narrative of what took place in the past. surely as God made little green apples Enoch would have been alive at the time of the flood. translated because his testimony pleased God. I have no problem with that. he got Gods grace so he would not die of Old Age (impossible because the Flood was in Gods plan) death in the flood seeing Gen 5 is nothing more than a genealogy and Chapter 6 announces God plan for the flood. the death God saved him from can be concluded by the scriptures is death by drowning in the flood. This does not mean he will or will not be the witness in Revelation and I know that it also means Moses nor Elijah will be the two witnesses either.God does not tell us who the two witnesses will be.

please reread your post #29 you are putting words in my mouth stop that you are wrong.

If you want to keep attacking me and say I believe in a BK Bible. where's the beef?

OK what scripture says that Lucifer was one of Five Cherubs and he was their chief? you keep saying but you have no scriptures to prove it.

And if you are referring to the four Seraphim of Exekiel1 or Cherubim of Ezekiel 10. And you saying he was part of that and is no longer there where do you get that? not from scripture but from private interpretation. only one verse calls a being an anointed Cherub that covereth. We connect dots to make it Lucifer/Satan. but nowhere does it ever say that it was he that covered the throne of God. that is purely the assumption of men. the Bible never shows the Chariot throne of God to have been anything more than what we see in Ezekiel. and I don't believe Gods throne was torn apart in the past. of course it would have taken place before Gen1:3 and that would be why it is not revealed in any detail as to what this being covered.

no need to get so dogmatic about this seeing God is silent as to whom these two witnesses are. and thank God no one is going to loose their salvation if they don't believe the two witnesses are or are not Elijah and Moses. as far as your post I did read it. I know what the scriptures say and I have them opened to the the text in question. none of them prove that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses and if you want to because the same types of plagues are present or fire from heaven is there go ahead but it doesn't mean I did not look at what the BIBLE says. also none of them prove that Enoch will not be one of them. I assumed it to be Elijah and Enoch because neither of them died physically and God word said, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Whether Enoch is a witness or not. God saved him from death in the flood and that is obvious i have no problem believing that. if God wants to send Enoch or Elijah or MOses or John or TBones to be the two witnesses that is his will. I did not say God had to do anything I posted. and it was wrong of you to imply that seeing I never did imply that.

in conclusion my guess is as good as yours. seeing God is silent and does not say who they are. you can waste you time to argue more. but I give up. My mind however is not made up and I could change my view on who the two are.

whirlwind 06-22-2009 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlf (Post 20466)
Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Letís begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:



1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.




Have you ever wondered why Michael was contending with Satan over the body of Moses. Could it be that the Lord was going to resurrect him? But why would he have to resurrect him at that time unless Moses needed to be alive for something that would come later? Let us look at where the Scriptures tell us the prophets all die? And Moses and Elijah, being arguably two of the greatest prophets in the old testament, should certainly die where the rest of their fellow prophets died. And whereís that? The Book of Luke tells use:


Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.

peopleoftheway 06-22-2009 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whirlwind (Post 22536)
Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two Prophets, not two groups of prophets, if it were groups it would be these Prophets, two would not appear in the sentence.

whirlwind 06-22-2009 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway (Post 22538)
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two Prophets, not two groups of prophets, if it were groups it would be these Prophets, two would not appear in the sentence.



It is as when Israel is referred to as "woman." She is many....not one.


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

11:4 These are the TWO OLIVE TREES and the TWO CANDLESTICKS, standing before the God of the earth.

I used to read this as the two witnesses being the two candlesticks and the two olive trees...just another name for the same thing but still two entities.

The following scripture shows that I wasn't correct in my belief:


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.


So...the candlesticks are churches and the only two churches He approved of are Philadelphia and Smyrna...they are the two candlesticks standing with the two olive trees before God. Together they are the "Two Witnesses." One of the witnesses (the two candlesticks) is the part of His church that He approves of (those that know and teach truth) and the second of the two witnesses are the two olive trees. Two churches and two olive trees make up the two witnesses.

CKG 06-22-2009 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whirlwind (Post 22541)
It is as when Israel is referred to as "woman." She is many....not one.


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

11:4 These are the TWO OLIVE TREES and the TWO CANDLESTICKS, standing before the God of the earth.

I used to read this as the two witnesses being the two candlesticks and the two olive trees...just another name for the same thing but still two entities.

The following scripture shows that I wasn't correct in my belief:


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.


So...the candlesticks are churches and the only two churches He approved of are Philadelphia and Smyrna...they are the two candlesticks standing with the two olive trees before God. Together they are the "Two Witnesses." One of the witnesses (the two candlesticks) is the part of His church that He approves of (those that know and teach truth) and the second of the two witnesses are the two olive trees. Two churches and two olive trees make up the two witnesses.

Whirlwind

Instead of going to Revelation 1 which talks about seven candlesticks which are plainly identified as churches, why not reference Zechariah 4 which talks about the 2 anointed ones.

Zechariah 4

1. And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5. Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9. The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12. And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13. And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets (not churches) tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The only reason a person would try and cram churches into Revelation 11 is if they believed the church would go through the tribulation. Another notable teaching of the "Serpent Seed" folks.

whirlwind 06-22-2009 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 22558)
Whirlwind

Instead of going to Revelation 1 which talks about seven candlesticks which are plainly identified as churches, why not reference Zechariah 4 which talks about the 2 anointed ones.

Zechariah 4

1. And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5. Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9. The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12. And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13. And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets (not churches) tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The only reason a person would try and cram churches into Revelation 11 is if they believed the church would go through the tribulation. Another notable teaching of the "Serpent Seed" folks.



Everyone will go through the tribulation....it is written. :)

The two witnesses are the olive trees and they are the candlesticks, as written. We are told what the candlesticks are. As you stated...they are plainly identified as churches. Therefore we know....the two witnesses are not two entities.

What do the two witnesses do? They "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" so they are....the two prophets.....and there are many.

tonybones2112 06-22-2009 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whirlwind (Post 22536)
Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.

It's perfectly all right for us to speculate in the venues of the sciences and philosophy, the Scriptures however clearly give a sefl- contained method of study. This method of study has shown us that the literal personages of Moses and Elijah are the Two Witnesses based on a Scripture with Scripture study without having to speculate as Revelation is the restoration of Israel during and after the Tribulation and is written specifically to Tribulation Jews. The speculations on Enoch being one of the witnesses is entirely unScriptural and untenable as Enoch had nothing to do with the nation of Israel, Moses and Elija had everything to do with Israel. The Two Olive Trees,, their presence at the transfiguration and their presence in Rev. 11 clearly make that point. The plagues, turning the waters to blood clearly make Moses the Witnesse we are contending over as these are the events God gave him the power to do in Exodus 7-12.

Micheal's contention with Satan is also clear. If there is a sin that Israel was ever guilty of the Roman Catholic Church is at this instant committing it, the greatest sin, the "accursed thing" of Joshua 7, and that is idolatry and worshiping whatever is not God, including the bones of dead "saints".

De 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

De. 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Why did God bury Moses and in secret so that even now his burial place is not known?

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent of Moses becasue the children of Israel worshiped it, he called it "nehushtan", "piece of brass".

The bones of Moses would have been enshrined in the Temple at Jerusalem, hidden prior to 70 AD, and would be in the custody of the Catholic Church where they, as the children of Israel would have, be worshiping them at this moment if they had them..

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate based on what is in the Scriptures, let them define themselves and answer their own questions.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

Biblestudent 06-22-2009 10:24 PM

Is Enoch a prophet? Is there a verse in Scripture that says he is?

The two witnesses are "prophets" -- Moses and Elijah are prophets according to the Word of God. Since some have suggested it to be Enoch, does anyone know whether he is a prophet or not?

tonybones2112 06-22-2009 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 22574)
Is Enoch a prophet? Is there a verse in Scripture that says he is?

The two witnesses are "prophets" -- Moses and Elijah are prophets according to the Word of God. Since some have suggested it to be Enoch, does anyone know whether he is a prophet or not?

This is what Jude says:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Though this event has yet to take place, I'm going to propose that based on this one prophecy that comes true(as opposed to ten thousand that are false does not a prophet make)then we might say with accuracy that Enoch was a prophet, since we do possess one(recorded)true prophecy of his.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony

Biblestudent 06-23-2009 12:18 AM

Thanks, for pointing the verse, Brother Tony!
Oh, how could I have missed that one! :doh:


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