Did OT Saints look ahead?
 

I heard another pastor say that OT Saints looked ahead to the cross of Jesus Christ. He also said they KNEW that someday God would send his Son to die and cover all their sins which were being covered temporarily by the bolood of Bulls and Goats. They say, that they understood the scriptures about Christ coming sacrifice for sins that was revealed to them in their time (dispensation).

I have asked them to give me OT verses that prove that they knew about Jesus Christ comeing and dying onthe cross. None have been given. the only ones they give are NT and they out of context. Like Romans 3:25 and saying past meant passover. EEK! the context is of the person at that the time of Paul who beleived (look at the verses before and after) it was for their personal past sins not God passing over the sins of OT saints.

So here is my Challenge. I need OT verses that support these preachers statements that they KNEW clearly about Christ sacrifice to come, God sending his Son. (before you jump to Isaiah you need to remeber what Peter taught - so read it below) that is they were indeed with full knowledge looking forward to the cross of Christ.

Peter tells us they did not understand the scriptures that prophecied of Christ and they longed too and that not even the angels understood by desired too. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you" is Israel, not church age saints (we were a mystery that peter claimed God was saving them Gentiles just as us Israel in Acts). it the prophecy was not for them in the in their dispensation but for Israel in a later dispensation. The "unto us they did minister the things which ARE NOW REPORTED unto you (Israel)" Again is Jews not church age saints. they did not understand the prophecies.

and what about Noah, was he looking forwardto the cross, or Abraham was he looking forward. where are these verses that show they did that they are quick to claim that supports their teaching. None I tell you none.

:confused::rolleyes:

Re: " Did OT Saints look ahead? "
 

Aloha brother Chette,

I'm with you 100% on this issue. :amen:

How can anyone explain away that even His disciples "understood none of these things" and "knew not"?

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

[Luke 24:13-48]
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Unless the Lord opens a man's eyes to understand the Holy Scriptures - the Truth will be "hid" from them, just like it was for the Lord's disciples and the Prophets of the Old Testament.

No one fully "understood" the death, burial, and resurrection, until the Lord "revealed" the "mysteries" (hidden in times past) to the Apostle Paul!

Has anyone pulled this one on you yet, it seems to say that Abraham knew about Christ. And if Abraham knew, the rest of the prophets would have known also.

Joh:8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

And these verses also.

1Pe:1:10: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe:1:11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe:1:12: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Ok, I see you have these. :)


This comes pretty close.

Ho:2:23: And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Sam, Good try but no candy (seeing we don't have or smoke cigars). you see the OT verses would have to clearly state that God would send his son to die on the cross so that their sacrifices which are not good enough can be perfected in the work of the son trough a propitation death and sacrificial atonement. and to the Jews a mans death and blood was not included inthe sacrifices for sin. if a mans blood was offered as a atonement it would defile the temple and the Altar under OT Despensation.

A mans blood was shed because he shed someone eles in OT Law and for a few other reasons like not obeying the sabbath, commiting adultary. but never shed for the forgiveness of sins.

I think it is safe to say we could offer a million dollars and no one could claim it becasue there are no OT verses to support such nonsense.

OkAny body have any OT verses that clearly teach that OT saint under law or any other dispensation KNEW about Christ coming to die on the cross for their sin?

There are verses that prophecy the blood atonement - Isaiah 53 for example, but there is no indication in the old testament that saints looked forward to this.

In fact, Peter, while only a simple fisherman, and probably not the most learned man regarding the existing scriptures, did not believe Christ would die. Yet he preached a gospel. How is it that one could go out two by two and preach the gospel, and yet not believe it?

The simple fact is that the gospel that Peter preached was not "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (death burial and resurrection) and thou shalt be saved". It was probably similar to Matthew 5-7, or John's message of baptism for repentance.

Amazing, Isaiah 53 was on my mind just now also:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The fact is that the OT saints in Isaiah's day and afterward DID have these prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ. It might be an assumption to say that none of them were looking forward to seeing them fulfilled, maybe some were, including Isaiah himself? Of course, he never saw it come to pass in his time.

I'm not sure you correctly represent the passage above in 1 Peter 1 when you say they did not understand the scriptures that prophesied of Christ. I'll chew on that for a while I think. Have you any other verses that compliment this thought?

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. the context being that of Christ to suffer

Lu 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. The Context being Knowing the son and knowing the father

1Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The context is knwoing the things of God which no one can without the Holy Ghost and OT saints did not. this agrees with George's statement above.

These preachers make such dogmatic statement that the OT Saints were looking forward to the cross of Christ yet without any scripture to support thier teaching. they and I have heard many say they understood the scriptures revealed to them concerning God son who would come and die for their sins ina future time. Again no scripture just conjecture. this may make for nice speeches but nor for good doctrine.

The isa Scripture you quoted would fall under 1Peter1 which I quoted in the first post. and it was veiled scripture to Israel. What we need is a clear scrioture speaking of God his son and the cross that they would clearly understand. Jon Courson says they, th eOT saint, clearly knew the scriptures but failed to show which scriptures.

The Gospel Luke spoke of when sent out two by two is not the Gospel of the Grace but a kingdom Gospel only for Israel. see the context and know Christ had not gone to the cross when they preached that Gospel. we must remember their are 3 basic Gospels in the New Testament 1) the kingdom Gospel for Israel, 2) the Gospel of Grace taught by Paul. that gospel is also known by other names. 3) the eternal Gospel spoken by an angel. the first and the last of those have no blood of Christ for the remission of sins.

Re: "Did OT Saints look ahead?"
 

Aloha brother Samuel,

I have had someone pull that on me on another Forum last year. My answer then (as it is now) - the "DAY" that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of was NOT the "day" of His crucifixion, it is "THE 'DAY' OF THE LORD". When Jesus Christ (As KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS) returns to this earth to rule and reign forever.

There are so many Christians (especially nowadays) who think - "it's all about ME! Or it's all about US Christians! I've got "news" for them - IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST & HIS KINGDOM!

Why would Abraham be "glad" and "rejoice" over the Crucifixion of the LORD OF GLORY?

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You see the problem is in assuming or privately interpreting that the "day" Abraham was speaking about was the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that wasn't just one "day" - it was three days & three nights! [Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.]

The death, burial, and resurrection is never called or referred to as a single "day". However, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and to reign in the Millennium is referred to (over and over) as "The Day of The Lord": {Isa 2:12; 13:6,9; 34:8; Jer 46:10; La 2:22; Eze 13:5; 30:3; Joe 1:15; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Am 5:18,20; Ob 1:15; Zep 1:7-8,14,18; 2:2-3; Zec 14:1; Mal 4:5; Ac 2:20; 1Co 5:5; 2Co 1:14; 1Th 5:2; 2Pe 3:10}; or "the great day of the Lord", or "the great day", or "the great day of His wrath", or "that great day of God Almighty": {Zep 1:14; Jude 1:6; Re 6:17; 16:14}; or "The Lord's Day": {Re 1:10}; or "my day": {John 8:56}.

Instead of speculation, conjecture, supposition, or assumption - It's amazing what a study of Scripture (with Scripture) will reveal!

Oh, by the way, I was "BANNED" from that other Forum for presenting this, and other Scriptures demonstrating that there was no way that any Old Testament saint ever knew or understood the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ - How could they have? His own disciples "didn't get it" until after the Lord was killed, buried, and arose from the dead. As a matter of fact - they still "didn't get it" until He "revealed" the truth to them and opened up their "understanding"!

Bro. Chette has pointed out that the notion that OT saints "looked forward" to the cross is strained at best. What about the disciples "looking back" at it?

Luke 24:3-11 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. ... He is not here, but is risen: ... And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ... And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

They were so ignorant of Christ's work, that even after he had completed it, they didn't believe it.

What do we call someone who regards the "tale" of Christ's resurrection as "idle?" Lost!

It seems strange to me to say that Saints pre-Christ were saved by the same Gospel as we.

I am amazed that He has given me, and all true believers, the written word and spiritual understanding to go with it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I do not know exactly what the prophets of old understood. But this I do know, God has opened our eyes of spiritual understanding. Therefore, I am able to read those Old Testament prophecies with a new mind and perspective. I see Jesus in them. How very blessed we are to be living in this dispensation.

1 Corinthians 2:7-11 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

I think many prophets knew about the Gospel of the Kingdom (Moshiach), but I don't believe anyone in the OT looked forward to the cross. I think many of them were expecting a King, but I don't think they understood that the King would have to play Priest first.

Here are a couple other verses which indicate they knew of a coming Savior.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44 KJV)

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (John 5:46 KJV)

Peace and Love,
Stephen

People knew of and were looking for a political king, one who would restore the nation of Israel to power over all nations. However, they didn't understand the importance of the spiritual side of things, as the Jews have always been a visually motivated group of people. They had no concept that they needed to have God's image restored in them or that Christ would institute a Spiritual Kingdom (Kingdom of God) in addition to the literal, physical, earthly Kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven).

They were looking for a powerful King, not a suffering Saviour like Jesus.

Diligent made a very good point about saints today looking back to the cross. I looked to the cross of Jesus Chrsit but not back to it. this looking back doctrine will fit very well witht he Calvinist. looking back could imply they were already saved before they believed.

as we do know Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. this is what made OT under the Law sacrifices effective for them. but those sacrifices had to be done every year as comanded in faith to receive God grace.

this I can see in all but the Garden of Eden (pre fall) and Kingdom dispensations. Salvation has always had three elements that were working together Grace, Faith, and Works. but how those three worked together was different in every dispensation. but still no one in the OT Law dispensation or from the fall on was looking to the cross of Chrsit to come to finish or perfect or bring them salvation.

What about these verses?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Good find winman. I remember being overwhelmed when I came across that verse the other day. And to think, a gentile was saying that!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Nice try again. and yes it does have a redeemer but for Job He knew his redeemer was God. Not "his SON on the Cross dying for sins". and the He shall stand upon the earth is about the eternal kingdom when God will be among men on earth as found in Rev 22.

It is an awesome verse. but it does not clearly teach they knew that God would send his son to die on a cross for sins. Remember these false teachers are saying "the OT saints under law (so that is Israel not Gentiles) knew clearly by the revelation given them that God would send His Son to die on a cross for their sins." I have heard many well known Pastors from denominational and Non-denominational churches say these exact word or some very similar to them. but they never quote a verse in support.

it would seem they are Parroting something they have been taught and wish was true.

Right, well a lot of people (especially preachers) are guilty of preaching things which they heard, but haven't looked into for themselves.

I personally believe that many prophets in the OT knew that God would do a work which would redeem them from their sins. But I don't think they understood how it would be done. I think nearly everything that we read in the NT (doctrinally) was shadowed in the OT. Naturally, we can see this now because of the Holy Ghost which directs our attention to Christ Jesus, who is indeed spoken of in the OT. But to an OT saint reading Scriptures it was a mystery to be fully revealed to the apostle Paul.

But one thing I wonder about is David. Could it be that this OT saint knew?

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:25-32 KJV)

Could he have known that Christ would come and that his son Solomon was a shadow of our Lord?

And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. (1 Chronicles 28:6 KJV)

It's hard to say. It's evident throughout Scripture that the OT saints were blinded to this mystery. Nevertheless, it's hard not to wonder if these men ever had any sort of inkling that a sinless man would come to shed His blood to redeem people from their sins.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Well, they had the scriptures, but it is hard to know if they could put them together.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So here they were told a child would be born, who would be God himself. That must have been difficult to understand. And the cross is not seen here.

His betrayal by Judas was foretold.

Zech 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD

Before Pilate

Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The cross

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Of course, hindsight is 20/20, it is easy for us now to understand these prophesies. But there is no way to know what Old Testament saints understood.


And I think that prophesies in the future will be the same. We might imagine we know what is going to happen in the future, but it may be very different than we conceive.

A very good chart outlining what the prophets saw is HERE.

If you have access to Clarence Larkin's "Dispensational Truth," check out the chart on page 7 1/2.

Larkin's chart is based on what Larkin thought not on Scripture. All Scripture used was from his view not the OT Saints view. MC1171611, the original chart has some text on it missing from your posted chart.

Isa 5o, 51, 53 jer 23, zach 9 and any other OT SCriptures that prophecy of Christ were not understood by them according to Peter (see original post). 1Peter 1:10-12

What we are looking for is OT teaching that they indeed understood they were looking forward to calvary. for this is the false claim.

the only teaching found in Scripture that would teach a backward look and a forward look was for Christians in 1Cor 11. when they partake of the communion they looked back in remembrance of the cross and forward to his return. but never does the OTsaint say they looked forward tot ehcross of Christ

I don't think we are in the same boat as the OT saints when it comes to knowing/not knowing prophecy. We have MUCH more than they ever had, including the complete revelation of God to man contained in the Bible (where a number of mysteries, including the church, were revealed to Paul), and the indwelling Holy Spirit who interprets the scripture and guides us in to all truth. I don't "imagine" I know what will happen in the future, I KNOW because it's spelled out in black and white. The rapture of the church, the tribulation, the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on a regenerated earth, Satan being chained for 1000 years and then leading a final rebellion, the great white throne judgment, the new heaven & earth, are all going to happen just as God says they will.

I was simply posting more proof that they DIDN'T know. There is no proof that they did, as that chart (and its original) show. Larkin's charts are almost always airtight and Biblically accurate.

Oh my bad, MC171611

No foul, no harm. :cool:

Why does it matter? The bible plainly says that they were justified by faith without works.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

I would say it matters because people (perhaps most) on this forum simply wish to rightly divide the word of truth. Brother Chette emphasized the word "KNEW" when asking his question. We can clearly see the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ because we know the Christ they refer to. It was hidden...a mystery to be revealed in time...they certainly did not clearly understand or KNOW the gospel of Christ as we do. In my understanding, the Old Testament saint was not saved by believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. But they were indeed saved by believing God.

I too agree with the scripture...Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Moses Might agree
 

Moses who wrote the book of Genesis might agree he's looking forward but not certain to Christ death on the cross. That's why through faith, he kept the passover and did a sprikling of blood. What Moses did was a certain practice for a coming perfect sacrifice of Christ at Calvary.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

The best guess i can give so far bro. chette.

wow - i read this whole thread and finally someone quoted gen 3.

Of course Old Test saints understood God would come as a man and pay for sins and there would be a blood sacfrice or they couldn't be called saints. could they?

God gave first gospel presentation Himself shortly after first sin ever. Gen 3 gospel presentation always seemed vague to me but then i pictured the 6 of them standing there (father, son, holy ghost, satan, adam and eve). gen 3:14-15 and imagine God the father actually pointing to eve, satan and Jesus while as He says each pronoun. then it becomes the clearest gospel presentation ever. and then throw in the aprin and the coat picture and the first killing of animals. GREAT CHAPTER!