The King Job Bible
 

While reading recently through the book of Job, I couldn't help but noticing something in the eloquent wording of the King James. It seemed to me as though while Job was speaking to his audience, that the AV was addressing its audience of "wannabees", imitations, and counterfeits.

Job 6:24-30
24. Teach me, and I (KJB) will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
25. How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
26. Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
27. Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
28. Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
29. Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
30. Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?


Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

The Book does speak, and oh how sweet it is to hear from the words of the living God!

Has it spoken to you lately?

God's Word moves me every time I read it. Although getting through Joshua was a bit rough I'll admit. I really should have a good map of Israel at hand as I read that Book because I can't for the life of me picture the land and borders being described in this Scripture.

But yes, brother, God's Word is amazing. I can't go more than two days without reading something that moves me to tears. God's Word is such a blessing, and I'd truly be lost without it.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

stephanos,


Use the maps in the back of your Bible. That is what I try to do, sometimes they help.


Atlas

I've looked them over, but I really could benefit from a nice large wall poster that I could look at when I need to (not to mention that it would be nice to have a poster of the holy land). I think it would be great to have a poster of Israel with the names of places before and after places were renamed. I'd also like to see locations of old landmarks etc. I do have a copy of the Oxford Bible Atlas in pdf format, but it's not very handy when I'm not at the computer.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Who Wrote the Book of Job?
 

It spoke to my teenage son one time when he read this verse (and other portions as he read through the Book of Job) and realized who the author may have been.

Any guesses, thoughts, insights? I imagine he is not the only one who came to this conclusion, but I had not seen it until he saw the evidence in the KJV wording. Most Bible commentators that I have read have not seen it either.

Shalom,

Tandi

In chapter 32, verses 15-17, Elihu seems to switch to the first person as if he is narrating.

Job 32:15-17 They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking. When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more;) I said, I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.

Also note that when the Lord appears and answers everyone, he rebukes everyone except Elihu in chapter 42, demanding sacrifice for their (Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar) sin, but not of Elihu.

You got it right! It frustrates me when I see commentaries that put Elihu in the same category as the other friends. I wonder if Elihu is a type of Christ .....or perhaps even a pre-incarnate appearance (theophany). Any thoughts?

Have you read the book, The Hiding God: Jesus in the Old Testament, by Raymond L. Scott? That book made quite an impression on me years ago.

Shalom,

Tandi

Brandon, I do not agree that a switch was made in v.15. Nearly the entire chapter is a quote from Elihu. It is therefore all in first person. It starts in 32:6 and ends in 33:33, and then a new quote begins in 34:2. The narrator remains a third person.

As for Elihu being a type of Christ, I disagree. The reason for not being included in the condemnation at the end of the book is the same as for why he was not answered by Job. It is found in 32:3 and 32:6, his youth. His accusations against Job are just as wrong, but he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response.

I think that is right, Brother Tim.

Re: " The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha Brother Tim,

Just a few comments on your Post #8 <> “King Job Bible”.

Brandon engaged in a slight bit of “speculation”:
To which you answered:
I personally lean towards Brandon’s “viewpoint”, but your viewpoint may be just as valid, and so in the scope of things, the issue of who wrote the Book of Job is “a wash”. However, someone had to have written the Book of Job (and who would have been better qualified than Elihu – who witnessed (both saw & heard) the entire episode?

The second part of your response should have been directed at “Tandi”, since it was Tandi that “speculated”:
To which you responded:
And I am in complete agreement with you that Elihu couldn’t have possibly been a “type of Christ” or a “theophany” – the “type” just doesn’t fit the “Majesty” and “Glory” of the Lord.

However I must take issue with some of the things you said in your last quote:
You said: “His accusations against Job are just as wrong,” Can you point out just exactly “where” Elihu was “wrong”? Could you be more specific please?

If you will recall we had a small disputation before about Job’s friends: Eliphaz. Bildad, & Zophar – see: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...40&postcount=1 http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...98&postcount=7 in which I disagreed with your “assessment” of their statements. I reiterate what I said then: “Can you not see the distinction between being "factually correct" about issues and having "faulty judgment"?

The case of Elihu is entirely different than Eliphaz. Bildad, & Zophar. Since God never called Elihu down for “faulty judgment” (as he did Job’s “friends”); you are going to have to “prove” just exactly where Elihu was "WRONG" (specifically). The idea that God “excused” him or his supposed “faulty judgment” because of his “youth” won’t hold any water – at least not Scripturally. Since when does God “excuse” sin because a man (NOT a boy!) is young?

Job and his "friends" were at least in their 60’s (probably older) – what does that make Elihu? The fact that Elihu was younger (perhaps 30-50 - Certainly NOT in his TEENS!) wouldn’t “excuse” him if he had been wrong in his “judgment”. I can think of NO instance in the Bible that God “excused” a young man (NOT a child) of his sins because of his “youth” perhaps you can provide me with some examples?

It is far more likely that, had Elihu been “wrong” in his judgment, that God would have “lumped” him in with Eliphaz. Bildad, & Zophar (regardless of his age) and would have required of him the same “sacrifice” as He did Job’s “friends”:
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

In my former Posts <> AV1611 Bible Forums <> Doctrine <> “Are the words of Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, & Elihu "suspect" or "Truth"?” <> Thread #1 & Post #7: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...40&postcount=1 http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...98&postcount=7 I listed 18 verses spoken by Eliphaz; 8 verses by Bildad; and 6 verses by Zophar - all of which were in regard to God, God’s Character, the Creation, the Flood, etc. (all of which were TRUE); I then listed another 48 verses spoken by Elihu (all of which were TRUE); (I could have listed another 76 verses spoken by Job - all of which were TRUE) trying to demonstrate to you that although Job’s three “friends” were “wrong” in their “judgment” about Job, they were “factually correct” about everything else that they spoke about.

God’s wrath was “kindled against” Eliphaz. Bildad, & Zophar because of “faulty judgment” (on their part) – had Elihu’s judgment been “wrong” also, God would have been just as angry with him as He was with Job’s three “friends” (regardless of his age), the fact that God did not call Elihu down indicates that his judgment was NOT “faulty” or “wrong”.

Your statement: “His accusations against Job are just as wrong, but he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response.” Is pure “speculation” on your part – unless you can PROVE (from the Holy Scriptures) otherwise.

George, you asked for evidence that Elihu falsely accused Job. I believe that there are several places within his diatribe, but this section stands out:

Again, here Elihu indicates that if Job would just humble himself and come clean, then God would remove His suffering. He falsely claims that God has wrath toward Job.

Elihu is the epitome of the modern Bible College graduate. He presents a lot of truth but intermingled with arrogance and a total absence of personal life experience. He walks into the church and expects every gray-haired saint to sit at his feet in wonder.

Re: "The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha Brother Tim,

Your quote:
It is clear that you don't agree with Elihu's "assessment" Of Job's situation, but you must PROVE that he was WRONG - you can't just state that he was "wrong" (just because you disagree with him), you must demonstrate he was "wrong".

For instance: Elihu said: "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom." Was he right or not? Let's see what God has to say:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

WHO was God "answering"? God was "answering" Job (for some of the things that Job said previously.) - God wasn't "addressing" Elihu, He was addressing" ("answering") Job!

And again Elihu said: "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God." WHO was Elihu talking about? JOB! Was he right or not? Let's see what God has to say:
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
God is "answering" Job (for some of the things that Job said previously.) WHO is it that was "contending" (Job 40:2 - in "rebellion") with God? Job! WHO was it that was "reproving" God (Job 40:2 -"multiplieth his words against God .")? Why, according to God - it was none other than Job! And what is it that Job says ("answers") when he is rebuked of God?
3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Job knew WHO God was talking (answering) to. Job knew WHO was being rebuked - for he instantly "fessed up" and then he "shut up".

How's Elihu doing so far? The way I see it - he's hitting 3 for 3. That's pretty good in baseball (100%).

And again you said:
You said that Elihu indicated: "that if Job would just humble himself and come clean, then God would remove His suffering." But can you not see that that is "exactly" what Job did? [Job 42:1-6] And that God then removed his suffering - "exactly" like Elihu said he would [Job 42:10-17]!

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

If that isn't "humbling himself" - I don't know what is.

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
17 So Job died, being old and full of days.

So far Elihu is batting 4 for 4 - still a 100% batting average!

And lastly you claim: "He falsely claims that God has wrath toward Job." But let us carefully see what Elihu actually said: "Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee." Elihu didn't say that God had "wrath toward Job"! Elihu was warning Job that "because there is wrath", Job better be awfully careful lest - "lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee."

The way I see it - Elihu is batting 5 for 5 - still 100%, and I think you owe Elihu an apology. :rolleyes:

A careful reading of the verses has removed all of your concerns (about Elihu's veracity) and has demonstrated that contrary to what you thought Elihu "meant", he actually was right on in his assessment of Job's situation - just like I said in my last Post.

I have answered your objections to (or "evidence" against Elihu), and now perhaps you will answer my former query: "I can think of NO instance in the Bible that God “excused” a young man (NOT a child) of his sins because of his “youth” perhaps you can provide me with some examples?"

Can you provide me with some Biblical examples where God excused sin in a young man's life - because he was "young"? And if you cannot, will you at least admit that if Elihu got "a pass" from God - it wasn't because "he was young"? :confused:

Brother George, you put words in my mouth and then ask me to prove that those words are true!

Where have I said that God "excused" Elihu's sin?

From what I've seen of Elihu (and I haven't made a study out of him up to this point, though I might...), it seems if as he had some wisdom and discernment; he kept silent for a long time, and even then he didn't really say a whole lot. He spoke with respect toward those older than him, and still seems respectful toward Job, even while rebuking him.

Unless I'm completely wrong (Bro. George?), it seems as if Mr. Elihu would be a pretty decent role model for Christian young men today. Slow to speak, speech seasoned with salt, knew the matter before he spoke it; and above all, he was respectful to those older than him (while I admit I struggle with that myself on occasion).

Most importantly about Elihu is that God echos much of what he said and never rebuked him, although he rebuked the others. I'm just not "getting" why some people believe Elihu was off-base. What did he say that was wrong?

Re: " The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha Brother Tim,

I don't believe I ever actually accused you of saying: "that God "excused" Elihu's sin? I said - my quotes:Each time that the word "excused" was used - I introduced it on my own, but technically I never said - that you said: "that God 'excused' Elihu's sin". However, if I have "put words in your mouth - I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to, since I don't like people putting words in my mouth!

You did say:The following is the Bible record concerning God's attitude towards Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Please note that God did not mention any "wrath" toward Elihu.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.
10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

In speaking about Elihu you said: "His accusations against Job are just as wrong, but he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response." I have proven (from the Scriptures) that Elihu was "right on" when it came to his assessment of Job's situation. And that is the reason Gos did NOT include him in His condemnation of Job's three friends.

You have said that: "His accusations against Job are just as wrong," and the reason God did not include him in His condemnation of Job's three friends is because: "he does not have the experience of age to qualify his speech as worthy of response." This is pure "speculation" on your part - you are reading into the Scriptures something that is not there, and something that you couldn't possibly prove.

If Elihu was truly guilty of what you accuse him of, he would have had to be included in God's wrath (regardless of his age) for he would have been guilty of the SAME SIN - "ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right". If Elihu was guilty, as you say he is, God would have been guilty of "respect of persons" - because He would have "excused" Elihu's sin because of his "young age".

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

IF Elihu was guilty of the SAME sins as Job's three "friends" (as you claimed) - then God gave him "a pass" because of his "young age. IF that is true - then God "excused" his sin because of his "young age". If that isn't "respect of persons", then I don't know what is! IF Elihu's "accusations against Job are just as wrong" - then God (in order to be "just") was obligated to treat him just exactly "the same" as Job's three friends (regardless of his age!).

That is why I have asked the question (for the third time): Can you provide me with some Biblical examples where God excused sin in a young man's life - because he was "young"?

"Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf." (Job 36:2). This is Elihu's problem: presumption.

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2). God directly speaks to Job, and God is showing that Elihu did not actually understand what he was talking about.

Since Elihu's words are Scripture, I think that what he was saying are truths, and are things we can use for doctrines.

Like my dad said yesterday when I broached this topic with him, there is little room for anyone to criticize ANY of Job's friends: they were better friends (they sat, silent and fasting, with Job for SEVEN DAYS!) than any one of us would probably be, to my chagrin.

However, I have to disagree with you, Bibleprotector; I do not believe that Elihu presumed anything. He claims to be speaking under the power of the Spirit (32:8) and like Bro. George pointed out, God seems to echo Elihu's statements. I believe that Elihu was 100% right in his approach to Job: he showed deference toward men of old age and he spoke with respect, and he was the only one in the whole mess that didn't get rebuked for anything by God.

Based on the evidence, I think we can fully absolve Elihu of any wrongdoing whatsoever (not that it was our place anyhow); at least God did so.

Re: "The King Job Bible"
 

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
Aloha brother bibleprotector,

I beg to differ with you here brother (just a little :)). Here is what Elihu said:

Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.

All of us (at times) "speak” on behalf of God, and I don’t believe that it is “presumptuous” of us when we do. (That is why when we do “speak” - we better “speak” the TRUTH, the whole TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH!)

According to Elihu he was going to seek his knowledge from God <> “I will fetch my knowledge from afar”; he would give God the credit: <> “and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker”; he testified that what he was going to say was TRUTH <> “For truly my words shall NOT be FALSE”; and that God would testify to the hearer as to whether what Elihu said was TRUE or NOT <> “HE that is perfect in knowledge is with thee”.

Now if Elihu was “just as wrong” as Job’s three “friends”, then he wasn’t only guilty of their sin: “My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends:for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right,” He would have been guilty of LYING – because he claimed: “For truly my words shall NOT be FALSE”; and he claimed that he was receiving his knowledge from God - “I will fetch my knowledge from afar”.

This is why I have spent as much time on this issue as I have. The point that I have tried to make in these recent Posts and in my previous Posts - see: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...40&postcount=1 http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...98&postcount=7 is that – I do not believe that all of the things that Jobs three “friends” said are “suspect”. All of the “factual” statements that they made about the creation; the fall of man; Adam; the Flood; or about the Nature and Character of God are TRUE. The only thing where they are found to be at fault is in their “judgment” about why God was allowing Job to be “tried”.

They “thought” it was due to “sin” in Job’s life, and so God was punishing Job for his “sin” – they misjudged God’s reasons for Job’s trials & tribulations (“ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right”) and that misjudgment kindled God’s “wrath” (which should be a warning to us when we judge a friend or another brother in Christ).

The point about Elihu is simple: If he was “just as wrong” in his judgment of Job and about God as Job’s three “friends”, he should have been included in their condemnation, (regardless of his age). If he was “just as wrong”, he also would have been a LIAR! {“For truly my words shall not be false”} I believe that I have demonstrated (from the Holy Scriptures) that Elihu was NOT “just as wrong”, as Job’s three “friends”. I also think that I have shown from this Post that Elihu was NOT guilty of being a liar or of “presumption”, but that he was speaking the “Truth”.

You also said: "God directly speaks to Job, and God is showing that Elihu did not actually understand what he was talking about." My question for you is - if Elihu "did not understand what he was talking about", how is it that God verifies several things that he said? :confused: (see my previous Post #13 on this thread)

Re: "The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha MC1171611,

Your dad sounds "like my kind of guy". :) And I'm in agreement with him. I do not think that Job's "friends" were NOT truly his friends.

The trouble is they misjudged the guy, and they misjudged God. I don't know how many times I have been guilty of doing the same thing about one of my friends; or a member of my family; or another brother in Christ; or of God Himself; but I'll bet that it's easily more than the number of fingers & toes on my body - a whole lot more! (to my shame :eek:)

It's obvious from this record from the Holy Scriptures that God definitely DOES NOT "LIKE" it when we misjudge people! And that is why we have the warnings concerning this issue.
{Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:37; John 7:24}

People who speak the truth without personally understanding it, or do so out of wrong motives (e.g. pride) are speaking truth but darkening counsel.

"The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds" (Phil. 1:16).

The answer:

"What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." (Phil. 1:18).

That is why I think that God said that Elihu spoke without knowledge, and that his was a rebuke against his motives, not against the actual content of his speech.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that God addressed Elihu at all, while he sternly reprimanded all four of the other characters involved in the story.

To say that God rebuked Elihu is without merit, since God never even spoke to him at all. Elihu was an outstanding and wise young man that would be a great role model for any young man today.

Re: "The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha bibleprotector,

When God spoke in Job 38:1 He was neither addressing Elihu or referring TO Elihu. Check out what I said about the verses:

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
The address is to Job and is in regards to some of the things Job said previously. Job understood that God was referring to his (Job's) words - NOT Elihu's words, for God instantly goes into a lengthy discourse on "knowledge" and Job's lack thereof - (not Elihu's).

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Just to make sure that we don't confuse the issue and think that God was referring to Elihu in Job 38:2, God says the SAME THING AGAIN, and Elihu is certainly not being addressed or being referred to in Job 40:1.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
WHO is God speaking about ("he" & "him")? Certainly NOT Elihu! God is talking about Job - Just like He was in Job 38:1-3.

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Please notice: Job didn't make the mistake in thinking that God was referring to Elihu. He "confesses" - that he (Job) is "vile" and that he is going to shut-up! ("Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.")

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Notice the address to Job again: (just to make sure that we don't confuse WHO is being spoken to, and WHO is being referred to.) God says the SAME THING AGAIN (for the third time), and Elihu is certainly NOT being addressed or being referred to in Job 40:6. {Please notice the "thou" (Job 40:6-8) in reference to Job (NOT Elihu). How many more times does God have to repeat something before we get understanding?}

What does Elihu have to do with God's admonishing, reproving, and rebuking Job in all of the above verses? The whole discourse between Job 38:1 to Job 42:5 is between God and Job. The whole discourse is in reference to Job - NOT Elihu. Elihu doesn't enter into "the mix" one time.

Elihu is getting a "bum rap" and unless someone can PROVE that he was "wrong" or "presumptuous" (Not speculate, conjecture, suppose, or hypothesis that he was) I am going to continue to defend him and not "suspect" him of something that cannot be proved! :boxing:

The counsel was being given by the friends to Job. Clearly Elihu was acting as a counseller. On examining commentaries on this verse, while they appear to favour that Job is being referred to, they acknowledge that there are those who think Elihu is being referred to.

Job 42:8 shows that God is not accusing Job of speaking wrongly, "Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

Since Job spoke aright, how could he be the one who "darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge"? Even though he did indeed say, "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth." (Job 40:4). By doing this, Job was kept from the sin of falsely accusing God of his troubles. (Job's problem was his fear, and confession of it in Job 1:5, which opened the door for Satan's torments in his life.)

Clearly, Elihu did speak rightly, but "Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1 Tim. 1:7).

Aloha brother,

I will try (for the last time) to "rightly divide" the word of truth in this matter.

First of all I don't think that we are as far apart on this issue than when we began. I have not checked the "commentators", and it is interesting that there is a difference of "opinion" among them (there almost always is).

You said: "Job 42:8 shows that God is not accusing Job of speaking wrongly, . . . . . Since Job spoke aright, how could he be the one who "darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge"?

If you carefully read the context of Job 42:8, you will see that God did not just say: "Job spoke aright" (about "everything"). God said in regards to Job and his three friends: ". . . . . for him (Job) will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job."

When Job spoke "of God", he spoke "the thing which is right". Not everything that Job spoke was right, or God would not have admonished, reproved, and rebuked him. But he did speak "the thing which is right" concerning God.

Now to determine "the thing which is right" that Job spoke requires that we review all of Job's words (that he spoke) concerning God. And a cursory review will show that while Job's friends "thought" that Job was being punished (by God) for some sin in his life (for something wrong he had done); Job not only proclaimed his innocence but also claimed that God allows calamities and tragedies to fall on the innocent as well as the guilty

Job's friends ascribed Job's trials and testings as being "punishment" from God (because they "thought" that the calamities and tragedies that happened to Job couldn't possibly occur, or happen to Job, unless he had sinned). In this they did not speak of God "the thing which is right", while Job did. As a matter of fact Job goes even further and claims that God allows the wicked to sometimes prosper [Job 21:1-16].

We don't have room to examine this issue in depth, but we can clear up any confusion concerning Elihu by working backwards from Job 42.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Compare Job's "confession" {Verse 3} with God's "accusation" in Job 38:2:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job is admitting {in Job 42:3} that he is the one that God was speaking of in Job 38:2.

Let us continue to work backwards:
Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Is any one else "in view" other than God and Job? I think not.

And again:
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Is there any other man included in this "exchange" other than God and Job? I trow not.

Once more:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Are there any other "parties" cited or referred to in this communication between God and Job? I don't think so! Comparing Scripture with Scripture clearly demonstrates that each time these "exchanges" {including Job 42:1-6} took place between God and Job, they were strictly between the two of them - with no one else in view, and referring to NO ONE ELSE!

Why would Job 38:2 be the ONLY "EXCEPTION"?

I rest my case. :)

MC said,
MC, if this were true, do you not think that God would have COMMENDED Elihu, especially considering that the others around him (including Job, according to some here), who were older and should have been wiser, were criticized by God for their failings? (I do not agree that God included Job in this). All three of the "miserable comforters" considered themselves as God's representatives. God rejected that. Job defended his innocence. God never accused him. Elihu criticized both Job and the three "friends". God neither commended nor condemned him. In essence, God IGNORED him. The first part of your statement is most significant. Neither God nor Job nor any of the others responded to Elihu AT ALL! Silence has a purpose here. Sometimes the best response to one who speaks with no knowledge is no response at all.

I must point out, like Bro. George, that God seems to say almost the exact same things that God did to Job, and Bro. George listed I believe five exact times. I think that instead of ignoring Elihu because he was wrong (as there is NO evidence that he was), God simply left a glaring silence after reaming out all four of the other characters: the three friends for their lack of wisdom, and Job because of his attitude. Elihu is not addressed for commendation, but he is also the only one in the story not to be reprimanded.

Hello Brother Tim. Here's my understanding.

I do not see any praise or rebuke from God concerning Elihu. But my opinion of Elihu is that he was a respectful, wise, and discerning young man. I do not read anything into God’s silence. Elihu seemed to be humble.

Is there a basis for what Elihu said?

Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

(See chapters 32, 34, 35, & 36 and examine Elihu. It seems to me he glorified and magnified the greatness of God.)

I may be wrong here, but it appears that Elihu’s counsel was based on the “lofty” and “self-righteous” view Job had of himself. (Read his parable in Job 29) I think this is why God revealed His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence in chapters 38-41 and why Job concluded with this confession.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

God used the severity of a trail to strip Job of himself so he could "see" and "know" the power of God.

Good to see you back, Brother. :yo:

Re: "The King Job Bible"
 

Aloha Brother Tim,

I intend for this to be my last Post concerning this issue. I ask you to please consider the following:

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
WHY is God “demanding” of Job for something that Elihu is “supposedly” guilty of? {“I will demand of thee” {JOB – NOT Elihu!}

Read all of the QUESTIONS that God “demands” of Job [Job 38:1-41 & Job 39:1-30]. If Elihu is “wrong” – WHY is God “questioning” Job, if there is NO FAULT in him? WHY didn’t God “demand” anything of Elihu? {And the “Youth” EXCUSE will not fly – as I have demonstrated from the Scriptures, and conversely have asked you for Scriptural support for your supposition and speculation.}

For the very last time – please tell me:
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
WHO is God referring to (“he”) – if NOT Job?

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
WHO is God talking about (“thy”, “thee”, “thou” – all singular) – if NOT Job?

Now, let me be clear. I believe (for many reasons) that Job is the most EXTRAORDINARY MAN in the Bible (the Lord Jesus Christ excepted – of course). I have never met a man in the 68 years of my life that has even come close to the personal integrity that Job had. And as far as self-righteousness is concerned, I doubt if there were 12 men in the entire Bible that could measure up to Job! {I know for certain that I personally (that is my personal integrity & righteousness) couldn’t measure up to Job’s ankles! :(}

BUT - Job was NOT without sin (sinless)!

Job was “fearful”:
Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

Job wished he had never been born and he wanted to die:
Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.
4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.
7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.
8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.
9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:
10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother's womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.
11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!

Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Job blamed God for his troubles:
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.

Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;
16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.

Job 16:6 Though I speak, my grief is not asswaged: and though I forbear, what am I eased?
7 But now he hath made me weary: thou hast made desolate all my company.
8 And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face.
9 He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.
10 They have gaped upon me with their mouth; they have smitten me upon the cheek reproachfully; they have gathered themselves together against me.
11 God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.
12 I was at ease, but he hath broken me asunder: he hath also taken me by my neck, and shaken me to pieces, and set me up for his mark.
13 His archers compass me round about, he cleaveth my reins asunder, and doth not spare; he poureth out my gall upon the ground.
14 He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant.

Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.
8 He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths.
9 He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.
10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
11 He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.
12 His troops come together, and raise up their way against me, and encamp round about my tabernacle.
13 He hath put my brethren far from me, and mine acquaintance are verily estranged from me.
14 My kinsfolk have failed, and my familiar friends have forgotten me.
15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.
16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.
17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.
18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.
19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
20 My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job 27:2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

Job was self-righteous:
Job 6:29 Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Job 23:4 I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know the words which he would answer me, and understand what he would say unto me.

Job 10:7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.

Job 27:2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
5 God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.
6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Job 31:4 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps?
5 If I have walked with vanity, or if my foot hath hasted to deceit;
6 Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity. {The whole chapter - Job 31:1-40}

Job complained:
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?
21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 29:2 Oh that I were as in months past, as in the days when God preserved me;
3 When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;
4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God was upon my tabernacle;
5 When the Almighty was yet with me, when my children were about me;
6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil;
7 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street!

Job 30:11 Because he hath loosed my cord, and afflicted me, they have also let loose the bridle before me.

Job 30:19 He hath cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes.
20 I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not.
21 Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me.
22 Thou liftest me up to the wind; thou causest me to ride upon it, and dissolvest my substance.
23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’ve been through a few “trials” and “tribulations” and fared a whole lot worse than Job! And when I look back upon those “trials” – they were NOTHING compared to what Job went through! Having said that though, I still must admit, that according to the Holy Scriptures (and I haven’t covered even 1/2 of the Scriptures that I could have cited) Job had some things to “answer” for. (NOT so much for “sins of the flesh – as for sins of the heart, mind, and spirit.)

I do not believe (as some) that this whole episode with Job was some kind of “A GAME” between God and Satan, with Job as a PAWN! I believe that even though God testified that Job was “perfect” (not sinless), that he was also aware that Job needed to be tried (tested) and so He allowed Satan to sift him for a season.

God was not “Playing Games” nor was he “punishing” Job – he was testing (“proving”) him, like He does all His saints. And I get a whole lot of comfort from the fact that, as great a man as Job was, he still faltered (a little) and had a real “hard time” with God’s testing; which, if we were honest, we all would have to admit that we have not always held up “perfectly” when God allows us to “go through the fire” – so to speak.

I do not intend to reply to any more comments regarding this issue. “Rightly dividing the word of truth” is paramount in a Christian’s life. We are all commanded to “rightly divide”, and I have tried my best to lay out a Scripturally sound basis for the beliefs that I hold concerning this issue.

I hold no animus towards those brethren who may differ with me, and I hope that they will feel the same towards me. Someday the Lord is going to “straighten us all out” on our doctrine, and until then, unless it comes to obvious heresy, we will have to “agree to disagree”. :)

Brother George, since you stated in your previous post that it was the last on the topic for you, I hesitate to respond, for I may force you to break your word. I will for others' sake point out that a number of the quotes that you gave concerning Job's failures were statements about God's actions toward him. Yet at the end, God says of Job's words, "for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7)"

Bro. George pointed out that Job had not spoken incorrectly against God, or "presumed" as someone else mentioned earlier (in reference to Elihu, might I add). The other three men had presumed that God was punishing Job for some sin, whereas the only problem Job had was self-righteousness and perhaps a little resentment; even if that's the case, no one has any right to talk down about Job: I'd be willing to say any one of us would have "curse[d] God and die[d]" right then and there.

Their problem was presuming to know the mind of God; Job's was self-righteousness (and the list of stuff Bro. George mentioned).

??
Please review the section of George's last post with the subtitle "Job blamed God for his troubles:"

That part had escaped my notice. However, the fact still stands: God berated everyone except Elihu and delineated everyone's faults except Elihu's. One will have to claim superiority to God to argue that Elihu messed up, since God did not attribute fault to him, while He did to everyone else involved.

MC, please cover the whole story. Yes, God DID NOT condemn Elihu. Also, He DID NOT commend Elihu. God DID NOT criticize Job for anything. He DID instead commend Job. I will honor the man that God honored. I will not honor the man to whom God was silent. 'nuff said. I will now join George in ending my comments.

Check Job chapters 38-41; God hollered at Job pretty harshly there; you cannot say that God did not criticize Job: in fact, he spent three CHAPTERS on Job, while He spent but a few verses on his buddies.

Job did sin (fear of evil), and in Job 42:3 he admits saying that he himself did not know all of what he spoke about. Therefore all of God's questions about hard things must have been designed to expose Job's error.

Now the positive result is this:
1. God in His mercy did cause Job to come to repentance,
2. Job prayed for his friends also, and God heard that prayer, and
3. Job and all were blessed in their lifetime while abiding on Earth.