romans 9 pt 1
 

Hope you dont mind, but heres a study I have been working on as to romans 9..

The enemy of the gospel of Gods Free Sovereign Grace is under attack more than ever in this day and time we live in. The Fact that the bible teaches God is Free and Sovereign in the administration of His mercy and salvation, Is eclipsed with the man exalting concept that man has the freewill, hence man is sovereign in his own salvation being he at anytime may utilize his freewill and get saved.

But May God be true and all men liars..

One of the chapters in the bible that testifies to Gods absolute Sovereigny to save whom ever he will, and with hold Salvation from whomever He will is taught in romans 9..

The devil has been busy though in sending his servants to corrupt and change the truth into a lie..

One of the ways this is being strategically done is by men saying that romans 9 is not talking about individual salvation but corporate election only..This however is not true, and by the grace of God, I will set out to prove that yes indeed romans 9 is talking about individual salvation..

First of all the whole context of the book of romans is grounded and centered in salvation, in fact, it is the gospel of Jesus christ set forth in its theological framework. It has themes such as mans depravity and inability , unconditional election, particular atonement, effectual call, preservation of the saints , deity of christ, and the mystery of israel and the church. All of which are vital gospel truthes for the elect of God, and the salvation of their souls..

Now, the book as I said is premised on salvation as we see from perhaps the verses that so aptly lay out the theme of the book rom 1:5-17


15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is a gospel that is from God to his elect or called ones. rom 1:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

rom 1:


1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Now moving right along to the 9th chapter we find the following..

vs 1-5

1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The concern here is that there apparently seemed to be something gone wrong here in that the pauls kinsmen in the flesh the physical Jew , were not for the most part expriencing salvation , and appeared to be foresaken of God , abandoned.. This caused paul apparently some sorrow of heart and heaviness.

And I see nothing wrong with wishful thinking , as it pertains to the salvation of friends and family, or those to whom God has caused us to fell close to..Paul had a natural affinity for his kinsmen in the flesh..

I dont know if this was sinful on pauls behalf or not, but in light of this it would be later that he suffered mightly from these his kinsmen..

2 cor 11:

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

Note; God will ween his children from all inordinate affection..

The reason for this is because it was suggested that paul went a little too far in saying he could wish to be accursed from christ for his brethern sake according to the flesh..and if that is what he really meant, he was definitly wrong for that thought and God chastised him good..with those very jews he had such passion for..

But getting back to the subject, the perplexity was salvation being with held from the jews or Israel according to the flesh.

It was no secret that God had singled out this nation for national prominence from what we read in vs4-5

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
It had appeared that in light of all israels past glory as Gods favoured people and the promises made to israel , that these promises have now fallen to the ground, and His covenant people set aside..

But paul sets out to resolve this issue by first stating, in vs 6:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

He first says, all israel [ the true spiritual israel of God] is not of national israel

Paul was saying that all the salvaic[ covenant ] promises of God were not directed to Israel as a nation but to a spiritual israel within the nation. Those who are the foreknown according to Gods eternal purpose in christ..rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

So paul first dispelling of the problem is that all israel is not from your country israel..

Next he goes on to explain further his point about not the national people where the original focus, but God had an eye to a people within a people..He proves this further in vs:7-9


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

As we know abe had two sons , one was name ishmael and the other issach..God made a choice to whom the heir of the covenant promises would be, and it was Isaach not ishmael..In fact at one point the inspired writer totally disregarded ishmael and was moved to write:

gen 22:

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Question ? Was not ishmael abes son ?

But the point is this, that those who belong to the covenant are like isaach was children of promise..What does this mean ? It means , that those who are Gods true israel , their births are brought about by the bare promise of Gods word alone..You see issach was a promised child by God when human effort was not a option for this to be accomplished..note:

gen 18:

9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

So in actuality it was not possible physically for sarah to have a child on her own..

But this child was to brought about my the onipotence and power of God notice vs 14 a

Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Issachs birth was by the promise of God, not human will..

So like wise is the true jew, he or she are children of promise..It was promised to christ prophetically that a seed shall serve him..

ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

cp isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

so the true israel are as Isaach recieve their spirtual birth by Gods promise, and james alludes to this in james 1:


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth[ or promise], that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God The Holy Spirit gives newbirth to the heirs of promise at his Sovereign appointed pleasure..jn 3:

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

i emphasize appointed time because this was the terminology God used to abe and sarah : gen 18:

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

so paul goes on to tell the galatians that true believers are appointed just as isaach was appointed..

gal 4:

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

end of part 1

Can't find "sovereign grace" in the Bible.

Then you must still need eyes to see..grace is said to reign as a king, a sovereign..rom 5:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

The word reign in the greek is

basileuō meaning #1.to be king, to exercise kingly power, to reign

#2.to exercise the highest influence, to control

THE

FALSE SAVIOR:

FREE WILL



It is commonly taught that Jesus Christ gave His life for all mankind without exception. It is said that due to this, it is now POSSIBLE for every sinner to have eternal life. But the possession of this eternal life is conditioned upon the sinner deciding for Christ or accepting Christ of his own free will. According to this system of teaching, Jesus did not actually save any one when He died and rose again. He merely made salvation POSSIBLE.

Let us, however, examine this teaching. According to this system, Jesus died EQUALLY for the sinner who rejected Him as f or the sinner who accepted Him. One will, however, wind up in hell and the other in heaven. But what decides that one will end up in heaven? Is it what Jesus did for him? NO! For according to this teaching, Christ did the same for the man in hell. Therefore, the unavoidable conclusion is that the one is in heaven because of WHAT HE DID, because of his free will decision to accept Christ. Hence, the decisive factor in a man's having eternal life is his own free will. NOT JESUS CHRIST! This makes free will the actual saviour. But this is a false saviour!

First, no unsaved sinner is willing to accept Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul says that all men be they Jew or Gentile are "under sin" (Rom. 3.9). In that condition Paul further describes them: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3.10‑12). That certainly does not sound like a group of people yearning to accept Christ as their personal Saviour! According to this passage, all men do evil. "There is none that doeth good." Jesus Christ said: "Every one that doeth evil HATETH the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reprove& (John 3.20). No sinner is going to f freely accept what he hates. He does NOT come to the light!

But does not a sinner have a free will? Indeed he does! And the freedom of that will is identified in Rom. 6.20: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free FROM righteousness." The sinner's will is free FROM, not TO righteousness. Hence, any choices he makes with his will are away from righteousness rather than for righteousness. With a will that is free from righteousness, a sinner will not choose Jesus Christ, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jer. 23.6).

Secondly, Jesus did not come merely to make salvation and eternal life a possibility to be decided by the sinner's will. He came to save. Notice Mat. 1.21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he SHALL save his people from their sins." The verse says, "He SHALL save," not "try to save" or "possibly save." That expression "shall save" is just as sure of accomplishment as "she SHALL bring forth a son" or "thou SHALT call his name JESUS."

Observe that Jesus saves "his people." Jesus further identifies "his people" as "all that the Father giveth me." Note: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day" (John 6.38‑39). Mind that the Father's will is that Jesus should lose none of those given to Him. Jesus came to do that will. And He did it! In John 17.4 Jesus said, "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." Speaking of His Father Jesus said, "I do ALWAYS those things that please him" (John 8.29). Therefore, Jesus saved every soul God gave Him to save. He lost none of them. He did the Father's will!

Jesus Christ gave His life for the sheep (John 10.11). These sheep are the same as "all that the Father giveth me." Speaking of the sheep Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all" (John 10.29). The sheep do not include every human being without exception. John 10.26 says: "But ye believe not, because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP!" Thus, Christ did not give Himself for those addressed in these words. He gave Himself for the sheep, for "his people," for all that the Father gave Him. And in so doing He saved them in fulfilment of the Father's will. The sheep are designated as "God's elect in Rom. 8.33. Because of Christ's death for them, no charge can be laid against them. "They shall never perish" (John 10.28)!

Therefore, it is not the execution of the free will of the sinner that secures for him salvation and eternal life. It is rather the execution of the Father's will by Jesus Christ. Jesus ALONE is the Saviour. He BY HIMSELF purged sins (Heb. 1.3). No wonder then that when speaking of the new birth, the Bible says that men are born "NOT of blood, nor of THE WILL of the flesh, nor of THE WILL of man, BUT OF GOD' (John 1.13). No wonder then that when Paul spoke of how men are God's children, he said: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL," not "your free will," but "HIS WILL" (Eph. 1.5)!

— Pastor Ben J. Mott, Jr.

Beloved:
I agree its not by our will but God's will, if we are trusting in our own will we are trusting in the flesh.
jim

Yes and furthermore, Jesus christ death burial, and resurrection saved all those given to him of the father.

The true gospel should announce that the election of grace or those given to christ by the father are saved..

The Holy Spirit reveals to whomever the elect are, their finished accomplished, salvation..

eph 1:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The salvation is theirs by Inheritance, before they believe it..

The salvation is theirs by Inheritance, before they believe it..[/QUOTE]

AMEN

AMEN[/QUOTE]


Yes sir hebrews 1:

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

romans 9 pt 2
 

Now as we continue the Romans 9 study, we see that Paul in explaining what seems to be a perplexity as to why the Jews are being excluded , most of them, as individuals of that nation. He explains that not all Jews from that nation are truly Jews [ spiritually] rom 2:



28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



This is the beginning of unfolding a mystery that the ethnic jew did not know or understand..



So, Gods promises to the jews have not fell to the ground as rom 3:



1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?



The unbelief of the non elect national jews, does not nullify the Faithfulness of God to the true spiritual jew, of the election of grace. All the abrahamic promises are sure to all the seed..



No sir, God is being faithful to Israel but just not the Israel you think..



He shows a distinction in Isaac vs 7-9



Now he goes on to show another distinction and sovereign display, this time with Isaacs offspring, because he had just said that the covenant promises were in Isaac, but there is still more..



Isaacs offspring vs 10-13



10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Here Paul continues his thought and explanation of seemingly the Jews being left out overlooked in salvation.



Even though he showed a sovereign choice made by God with abes children, he shows one now with Isaacs's children, who unlike Ishmael, not having the same mother, some may think, well yeah, God choose Isaac because Ishmaels mom was a heathen handmaid. but Paul dispels this thinking by showing Gods Sovereign choice of Individuals by the same parents, both mother and father..



This choice rested soley on God's "He whicheth calleth", and not on foreseen good or evil of the individuals..or works of the individuals..



This call proceeds from Gods eternal purpose alone..



2 tim 1:



9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Notice here in the above verse the phrase not according to our works and its relation to calling and in rom 9:11 and the phrase not of works and calling.



It should be plain to see, that calling is regards to salvation according to Gods eternal purpose. and election



God made a choice of Jacob over Esau to be the recipient of the covenantal love he displays in salvation..



No one can have a claim on Gods love in Christ Jesus, its only at Gods discretion. Esau was excluded from the covenant love of God, so scripture says he was hated.. If God loves you he saves you..



rev 1:



5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,



Gods loving one and washing away their sins are one and the same. They are married and cannot be separated, what God has Joined together let no man put asunder, lest thou be found a liar..



He does this because he paid the price for our sins, so God is The father is pleased and pacified, now nothing is left but for the loved ones, the washed ones, the forgiven ones, is to hear the good news of it, thats the gospel..



People dont be fooled by the false teachers saying this passage is speaking of nations and not individuals, that cannot be further from the truth, Jacob and Esau first and foremost were individuals ,and this what was happening affected them individually..



now we see why God is oft times called the God Jacob



ps 145:



5Happy is he[ singular] that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:



ps 75:



9But I will declare for ever; I will sing praises to the God of Jacob.



david recognized a sovereign God of a particular people..



He was humble too there was a time he made this request :



ps 106:



4Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;

5That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may

glory with thine inheritance.



1pet 2:



9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;



David acknowledges that God is a God of a chosen people and wishes and desires the salvation for that people..



Now david had all the right to probably consider himself chosen, but probably because of sin he humbles himself and seeks salvation from the God of a chosen people..He truly represents an expression of what paul terms in titus 1:



1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;



Amen, David had the gift of the Faith of Gods elect..



So God has not forgotten His salvation promises to Israel, but they are being fulfilled to the true Israel of God..



God is Sovereign in whose the recipients of this salvation,



Isaac and not Ishmael , and jacob and not easu..



When a person or persons are excluded outside of the covenant love of God, is being hated by God, so much so , you are not even considered a people as we see in, #1 The holy spirits exclusion of acknowledging Ishmael as a son of abe gen 22:



12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



# 2 Esau finding no repentance, God gives repentance to those He loves..



heb 11:



17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears



God is never termed, the God of Esau, as His chosen brother has the great honor of God being called:



ps 20:



1The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;



#3 people who are outside of covenant promises are



not a people at all to God..



eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:



This still applies today if you are not a elect , outside of the new covenant blessings, for only the spiritual israel benefit from..heb 8:



6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



That means , all who are not of this chosen spiritual israel are excluded as it was in ot times when the heathen gentile nations were excluded..



Now, look at vs rom 9 vs 14



14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.



Thats right, paul expected this reaction from them whom he testified the truth to..



we know Paul was not Armenian , and we know what he taught went against Armenian freewill philosophy by the very objection he is prepared to meet with..



If this is the case says the humanist, is not their unrighteousness with God ?



Note: depraved human nature has not changed since the days of Paul in negative reaction to the truth of God..



also, we must reckon that Paul gave the truth of unconditional election to all he had opportunity to, regardless if they were converted or not. He must have, because it seems he was ready for the response of natural thinking men. Which claim God is unrighteous and shows respect of persons, when this truth is testified to. So I disagree with those who say unconditional election should not be spoken of to the unconverted. Apparently Paul spoke often of it to all. which agrees with acts 28:



30And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.



Unconditional election is a gospel of the kingdom truth , and paul taught all that came in unto him, no doubt many came out of curiosity and just wanted to hear what this man was talking about, but paul was faithful and held back nothing for the fear of man..



acts 20:



20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnessed in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.



so in conclusion this section gives us more proof that paul is speaking about individual salvation because of the response he anticiaptes as God being unfair if unconditional election is true without regard to the individuals persons of good or evil as just illustrated in vs 10-14



end of pt 2

Just curious: if there is no free will, why get upset over people believing they have free will? (You might need to read that twice.)


I am still interested in what you "do" with:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is this word empty, null, and void?

Finally, have you read The Other Side of Calvinism by Lawrence Vance?

1. Then sin is sovereign?
2. Going to the Greek?

Echoing Diligent, please read The Other Side of Calvinism.

diligent im not upset over any thing , mearly tring to explain what God's Word says without contradiction.
the passage in rev. is talking about those who are able to here ,
i have already stated that faith is a work , 1 Thess.1:3 , 2 Thess.1:11 ect. many come back with rom.4:5 and say faith isn't a work so you have two verses that obviously seem to contradict each other so lets dig a little deeper to find out what Rom.4:5 is talking about , here is an outline on the study of Rom.4:5
in order
to come to the truth we cannot shove verses at each other that say opposite
things for instance one verse plainly says faith is a work and another verse says
worketh not but believeth , it can't be both ways and we can't pick one verse and
ignore the other , it all fits without contradiction , its like a big puzzle where a
piece may seem to fit [ the shape is right ]but the colors in the surrounding pieces
don't match . thats kind of what we have here , if we say its our belief that saves us
then we have other things that don't fit like 1 Jn.3:22-23 believing is keeping God's commandment,
then we would have the sinner obeying God's command to believe plus the obedience of Christ ,
that would be the obedience of two where scripture plainly teaches that its the obedience of one .
If we use Paul our example he was saved in his unbelief he was on the damascus road still
seeking Christians to bind them and bring them to jerusalem to punish them.
he was saved before he believed . Grace is a free gift there is nothing you have to do to recieve it.
to sum up verse 5 in Romans 4 , to him that worketh not [ trusting in the faith of Christ, his free gift of grace ]
he's not believing to get saved but wholly trusting in Christ , and what he did , vs. trusting in our faith which
is something we do which would be like verse 4 , Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace ,
but of debt. if we do something to get saved it is no longer of grace but of debt. Abrahams faith was not trusting
in something he did , but wholly in God alone .






Romans 4:5

I. Ro.4:5 is commonly run to by people who do not believe that faith
(the sinner's faith) is a work on the part of the sinner.
A. They commonly affirm that eternal life is gained by grace and not
works.
B. They also affirm that the sinner is rewarded with eternal life
because of his belief.
C. Taken at face value out of context, Ro.4:5 appears to support this
mistake.
D. Alone, without any qualification from its context or other
Scripture, this verse must mean that a person should never do good
works--only believe, since righteousness is "to him that worketh
not, but believeth..."
1. Clearly, Scripture teaches otherwise. Ep.2:10; Ja.2:17-19.
2. Obviously there is a particular KIND of faith under consideration
that "is counted for righteousness."

II. To deny that human faith (belief, trust, reliance, confidence in)
is a work is to deny the very definition of the word.
A. Work: "Something that is or was done; what a person does or did."
B. See Mt.23:23; Ac.16:30-31; 1 Th.1:3.
C. Believing on Jesus Christ is a commandment. 1 Jn.3:22-23.
1. Keeping commandments is a righteous work on our part. De.6:25.
2. Eternal life/forgiveness of sins does not come by such. Tit.3:5.

III. A good clue to the proper understanding of Ro.4:5 is in the
preceding verse (4).
A. In v.4., two concepts of acquisition are set forth.
1. Acquisition may come through establishing the other party's
indebtedness to you through your work.
2. Or, acquisition may come through grace, which forbids the idea
of the giver having to discharge a debt to you.
3. Grace and work are mutually exclusive. Ro.11:6.
B. Men are justified FREELY by grace. Ro.3:24.
1. Free: "(Of a gift:) Given out of liberality or generosity, (not in
return or requital for something else)."
2. Grace: "Favour, favourable or benignant regard or its
manifestation (now only on the part of a superior); favour or
goodwill, in contradistinction to right or obligation, as the
ground of a concession."
C. If v.5 is teaching that eternal life/righteousness comes by God
rewarding you for your belief (something you do), then v.4 is
meaningless!

IV. The assumption is errantly made that the phrase "counted for
righteousness (vs. 3, 5)" means "obtained/became righteous."
A. Thus, in v.3, where it says, "Abraham believed God and it was
counted unto him for righteousness," it is interpretted to mean
that Abraham became righteous and in the possession of eternal life
when he exercised faith.
B. The expression "faith is counted for righteousness" thus becomes a
formula or condition for the acquisition of eternal life.

V. However, this theory is proven wrong by numerous points.
A. Ro.4:3 is quoted from Ge.15:5-6 where God promised Abraham that he
would have a seed as numerous as the stars of heaven.
B. Abraham had already exercised faith years previously when he left
Ur of the Chaldees. He.11:8.
1. Did Abraham obtain eternal life back then and later lose it, to
regain it in Ge.15?
2. If Abraham's belief back then did not (according to the theory)
obtain his eternal life, why not? The factors are the same: God
spoke; Abraham believed; Abraham acted accordingly.
C. The expression, "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him
for righteousness" is also rendered:
1. "....reckoned...for righteousness." Ro.4:9.
2. "....accounted...for righteousness." Ga.3:6.
3. "....imputed...for righteousness." Ja.2:23.
D. If it is true that this phraseology is setting forth a condition
which Abraham fulfilled in order to obtain righteousness/life, it
must be noted:
1. That expression refers to three different events in Abraham's
life:
a. When he received the promise of an innumerable seed. Ge.15:6.
b. When he came out of Ur of the Chaldees. Ga.3:6-8 c/w Ge.12:3.
c. Much later when he offered up Isaac. Ja.2:21-23.
2. Does this therefore mean that Abraham became righteous thrice?
E. Also, if the phrase "counted unto him for righteousness" is setting
forth a condition to obtain eternal life, then it must likewise be
doing so in Ps.106:30-31.
1. This refers to the time when Phinehas took a javelin and thrust
it through a couple fornicators . Num.25:6-9


VI. When something is a "counter," as when faith is "counted" for
righteousness, it is only a token.
A. For example, a good analogy is: If you had nothing with which to
purchase a train ticket out of a doomed city and someone out of
sheer mercy and love paid the price for you and gave you the
ticket, that ticket itself is not what purchased your deliverance.
It is but a token that the purchase price of deliverance had been
paid FOR YOU. It is an evidence of a satisfied requirement.
B. So too is a sinner's faith. It is an evidence or witness that a
person HAS BEEN purchased and made righteous! He.11:1, 4.
C. Our faith is not what causes the new birth. It is the evidence
of the new birth and eternal life. Jn.5:24; 1 Jn.5:1, 4.
D. When Abraham believed God, he only manifested that God had made
him righteous and given him a new inward nature capable of true
belief.

VII. Ro.4:3-5 is actually teaching the opposite of what most people
believe about it.
A. If a person believes that his faith (something he does) PROCURES
his righteousness/life, that is a reward reckoned BY DEBT, not
grace! Such a faith is NOT counted for righteousness.
B. If a person believes that Christ ALONE justified him by His
substitutionary death and resurrection without any input on the
sinner's part, that faith IS counted for righteousness.
Ro.5:19; He.1:3.

Just curoius sir, why do you believe in freewill of men, when the bible never says it ?


IThis verse is not stating that man has a freewill. Its speaking to a specific people with who thirst ..

You must compare scripture with scripture to get an understanding..

Those who thirst, are those who have been made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit of God , Jesus calls those who thirst, blessed..

matt 5:

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Those who will let them drink , but who are willing ? Certainly not proud self righteous people as Jesus spoke to on this occasion:

jn 5:

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So obviously those like this group jesus is not referring to in the revealation passage, but to these , as in ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

In the day of the power of God the Holy Spirit Gods chosen people are willing people..

The apostle paul is a biblical Illustration of this blessed truth, even while he was in the heat of passion and rage against christ and His people, he was arrested by the power of Christ and became willing..moments later he referred to him [ Jesus of Nazareth] as Lord..

So frankly sir, you have not and cannot prove man has a freewill by the verse you have presented..

Yes it was, not any more if you read the passage correctly, sins sovereignty is supplanted by the reigning of grace..

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

vs 21:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

so your philosophy gives more respect to the effects of sin by adam, than the effects of grace by Jesus christ..

Faith flows from without the man to the man by Gods grace, faith is not of ourselves says paul but it as well as and included with salvation is a gift..

Faith therefore reveals salvation consicously to the heirs of salvation , it gives them assurance , spiritual suasion to trust, to take God at His word of promise..

heb 11:

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen.

Another scripture speaks of the assurance of faith..

1 thess 1:

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Now we know paul on the road of damascus did not have faith when he was breathing out threats and slaughters, but the power of God gave him faith and love to Jesus christ as a gift, here is his testimony..

1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

See, faith is a gift of Gods grace to the elect, thats why its written by this same man..

eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Nothing of man all from grace..sovereign grace , we see here a illustration in pauls conversion of grace reigning supremely over sin and death, and so it is with all the election of grace..

Actually the Bible does refer to man's free will. The OT even refers to freewill offerings - be pretty hard to have that kind of offering if man had no free will, wouldn't you say? There are MANY passages in the OT and the NT where God appeals to man, and they reject His offer of salvation, rest, fellowship, etc. That is man - whether lost or saved rejecting God's commandments and will or desire.

A freewill offering has nothing to do with mans freewill. A freewill offering was a offering that just wasnt required by law of moses lol..

So please show a verse where it states man has a freewill..

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

This verse does not state man has a freewill...sorry:cool:

It's good that you're not upset. I didn't think you were. :confused:

I have read what you've written, but I still haven't seen a direct response to my question. What do you do with "whosoever will" and "freely?" When your doctrine teaches that nobody can "will" and there is no "freely?"

I don't believe that there are any contradictions about predestination, and the only apparent contradictions are due to the redefinitions of terms by the system of Calvinism. Ephesians 1 is actually very clear on what is predestinated -- your choice is not a predestined choice (that would not be choice or belief -- that's just programming) -- your belief comes before your salvation, as is apparent in the same chapter. The sequence of events is actually quite clear; what is predestinated is actually quite clear. It is Calvinism that muddies the waters and turns the Lord's invitation to drink freely of the water of life into an empty plea.

The "lol" is that you can say that and be serious. Obviously, man choosing to do something not "required" by the law constitutes a freedom of choice -- a freedom you are arguing does not exist.



Here's one:

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

The verses dont say man has a freewill, you are desperate arent you.

All these verses are saying is that they gave freely of an offering, has nothing to do with their wills being free from Gods sovereignty..

prov 20:

24Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The most you are doing by giving these weak examples is proving that God caused those folks to willingly give..

Didnt you realize that God turns all hearts in the direction He wants ?

prov 21:

1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

You still have not proved absolutely nothing, man has no freewill..Please provide a verse that says man has a freewill..I am waiting..

People are obviously confused what freewill means and what I deny and the bible denies as well that man has not, and that is mans will is not free from the control of Gods sovereign will which is supreme at all times..

That is the obvious, plain implication from the wording of the verse: "which are minded of their own freewill" -- your doctrine insists that men have no freedom of will in their minds, and we're not just talking about salvation.

Calvinists have to play some real mental gymnastics to get around the clear meaning of quite a few verses.

Men can obviously resist "some" will of God. God has at least two forms of will -- sovereign will and permissive will. Clearly we have latitude to break from God's will on many occasion -- and even utterly resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). Calvinism has an imperfect understanding of sovereignty (there is no wisdom in the Calvinist definition of the term).

I find arguing with people who hold to those doctrines generally fruitless, and I understand the power of that imperfect comprehension of sovereignty because I once held to it myself. I can only hope that others reading here will user their, ahem, free will to recognize that Calvinism is not an accurate theology and inquire further by reading a great book (The Other Side of Calvinism). Maybe even the Holy Spirit will deliver some others from the snare of Calvinism, which puts God in a box that just doesn't do him his due glory.

I have nothing against Calvinists, and learn a lot from them on other issues, but I can't help but chuckle at the idea of someone trying to convince someone else of anything for which they believe no free will exists to make a choice. :rolleyes:

This has not been just about Calvinism and it's false doctrine. This has been about words, and what they mean. It's not just a matter of these folks not willing to look at the text. They have morphed words that make up the text to mean what they do not. This is an even more blaring example than the Bible correctors dynamic equivilance folly. This is an example of post modern subjective thinking that embraces a both/and philosophy. It is useless to point out truth to these folks. Truth is subjective to them.

You have yet to prove that mans will is free from Divine Sovereignty, you cant do it, scripture does not teach it..

In fact, your thinking is evil says the bible..james 4:

13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


This passage teaches that men should always consider their wills in subjection to the Divine will..

To boast about freewill of man is evil its boasting sir..

1. Sin WAS sovereign? What do you mean by that? Sin is sovereign only to the elect few, so that grace is sovereign to another elect few?
2. Sin reignED over all. Have all sinned? Sovereign grace reignS now. Are all saved?
3. Christ died for "ALL". Did Christ die only for the "elect"? "ALL" have sinned. Only the "elect" have sinned?

The word "sovereign" is not found in the KJB.

I have nothing else to say to you for I have showed you enough scripture to write a bible, and you have barley given a verse..lol you just hush and let your superiors try to prove something because you are a failure sir..lol

Yes only the elect are saved, all else have been ordained to eternal death..

romans 9 pt 3
 

begin part 3 rom 9



So we see from our study so far of romans 9, that paul is dispeling the Ideal that the national jews have been foresaken and Gods promises to them nullified. Paul teaches that:



#1 That the salvaic promises were not for national israel in the first place, but spiritual Israel..9:6



#2, then he Illustrates that not all of Abrahams descendents were heirs of promise by the story of Isaac vs 7-9



#3, he continues his teaching, that not all of Isaacs children are included in the covenant promises with Jacob and Esau vs10-13



#4, vs 14 Paul anticipates the humanistic response, knowing that what he teaches gives the sense that God chooses who He wants to have salvation, regardless of the actions and deeds of men. hence making it appear that God is unfair, so you know paul is teaching a Calvinistic view point about unconditional election and not the popular freewill Armenian viewpoint which is anti scriptural..



Now lets look at how Paul meets with this humanistic thought of God being unrighteous..vs 15-18



15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



He answers by referring back to a declaration God made years ago to moses,when moses asked or inquired about seeing Gods Glory..ex 33:



17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.



19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



Gods respond was the declaration of His Great I AM personage in Stating That He is absolutely sovereign in and of Himself, and He will Dispense of His graciousness [grace] and mercy on whomever He will..



This is Gods Glory , His absolute prerogative to do as He pleases. His GodHood is His Glory.. No one has a right to expect or have any claims on Gods grace or mercy..



Gods Glory is His Indisputable sovereignty over all His creation. doing whatever he pleases..



dan 4:



35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?



ps 115:



3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



God given faith bows to this revelation of Almightiness..heb 11:



6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.





So then salvation or favor with God is not because of vs 16, who wills it, who earns it, who puts forth an effort to get it, but solely on Gods Absolute prerogative on whether or not He wants to be merciful to an individual..



notice vs 17 He uses pharaoh as an example as to one God in His purpose for this man, not to show mercy to, but in fact one to whom He chooses to show His power and wrath upon.



And let me say this dear reader, you could be one as pharoah was , that is one who God has raised up to be an example of His wrath..



God showed His power in hardening pharaohs heart..



Lets look at some scriptures..



ex 4:



21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.



Gods power hardened pharaohs heart.. Notice the words I will [ Gods Sovereignty, Glory]



It does no good reader to say that pharoah hardened his own heart as in ex 8:



15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite; he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



because he hardened his own heart because God had decreed that his heart be hardened as the Lord said..



Note: We do Just as God decrees for us to do..



Note this great monarchs heart was in Gods Hand and as prov teaches prov 21:



1The king's heart[phoaroah] is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



but lets go back to God hardening pharaohs heart..



ex 7:3



3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.



ex 7:



13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 7:



14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.





ex 7:



22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.





ex 8:



19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 8:



32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.



ex 9:



7And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.



ex 912



12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.



ex 9



34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.





ex 9 35



35And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.



ex 10:1



And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

ex 10:20



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

10:27



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

ex 11 10



And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

ex 14 4



And I will harden Pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon his entire host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.





ex 14 8



And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.





ex 14 17



And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.



out of about 20 references of pharaohs heart being hardened, by Gods I will only 2 refer to pharaoh hardening his own heart and at least one of them says as the Lord said he would implying, did have a choice in the matter ? No..



But yet false religionist will deny that God hardened pharaoh heart but firs pharaoh hardened his own heart, that's incredible. And these be folk who say they believe the bible as the word of God..



But notice the last reference ex 14:17



As God being true to His word, He hardened pharoah heart right unto his destruction, along with his armie..



note: hell is prepared for the devil and his angels...



Gods Glory and power was manifested in this monarchs destruction..



We witnessed the Irresistibleness of Gods Sovereign Power over the so called freewill of man, yeah right, pharaoh was like a puppet in Gods hand, as every other human being in this world..



End of pt 3

Beloved 57 , Rom.9:16 pretty much sums it all up , its not of him that willeth , paul , our example on the damascus road did he have free will or was it all God's mercy and grace ? he was in unbelief. i have asked this question numerous times but no one has an answer , if it don't fit the freewill line of thinking they avoid it , thats not the way to study God's Word , all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine. thanks for your posts i always learn something on these forums .
Grace to me

I see, all the verses that contradict freewill, its amazing anyone can believe that. And when you read the bible , from page to page, chapter to chapter it teaches Gods will is supreme over mans will..

"All" - you mean "elect"? All elect are ordained to eternal death?

Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condition of the free gift is found in verse 17...
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

You gotta receive it. AS TO PAUL, he had to receive it too, and he did.

I Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received ,...(the gospel of the grace of God)

Was Paul "forced" to receive this gospel? It's not recorded so you falsely assume that he was.
It's been posted that Christ came to save his people from their sins. That's what He came to do, but did it happen? No. It was then overlooked that he came unto his own and his own recieved him not. BUT as many as received him, to THEM gave he power to become the sons of God....
Jesus Christ offered deliverance to the entire nation, but as a nation they rejected Him. He came to save a people that chose Ceasar as king rather than Himself.
God's saving grace is also offered to sinful man, but the gift must be received.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

The depraved, unregenerate, enemy of God must receive the gift.

Thats not teaching a condition sir, thats your forcing it to say that..

The elect recieve it grace and the gift by Jesus christ..

rom 5:


11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

It is by his efficasious death that we [ the elect] recieve its blessings..

To recieve is to have been effectually given..

jn 1:

16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jesus christ gives of his fullness to his elect , his body, his church..

also john says this about recieving...

jn 3:

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


So you need to go back to the drawing board lol..

even this verse you dont understand, this verse teaches that grace brings salvation in its power and efficasiousness, not offer salvation..lol..

You dont even believe this verse lol

What else ? Why you cant believe scripture ?

And what was "given from heaven?" How about vs. 16 when God "gave his only begotten Son? ...that the world through him might be saved."

I know, you have brains, you have verses, you have explanations for everything.

Here's one: If your doctrine is absolute, then explain the following...

I Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

How could baptism and preaching with wisdom of words possibly do this? To the elect, nothing can hinder their election. To the "reprobate," nothing can pull them out of their condition. So what's wrong with Paul? Does he think how he performs his calling can affect the results?