Alexandrian Texts
 

Can someone show/tell me why these manuscripts are wrong? I know they remove verses and stuff, but I'm just searching for some info here.

The problem is that they do not tend to represent a single text, because of the high amount of variations in each individual copy (at least, this is true for the Sinai and Vatican Codices, which are the two main represenatives of this family).

Dr Thomas Holland wrote, in Crowned with Glory:

What about Origen, who was he?

Jordan, I am sure this thread will run a long time, but I'm going to start the ball rolling.

The Alexandrian texts comprise 45 manuscripts, alleged to be the "best text" because they are alleged to be "earliest". If truly they are earlier, their own supporters recognize that they have survived this long because they were never used.

The "oldest and best", Vaticanus, had as many as 8 corrections of one verse where scribes have marked through a given verse. Also, there is a blank spot that by letter count would match exactly the last twelve verses of the ending of the book of Mark. Rather than Mark 16:9-20 being an "addition", it was OMITTED. The Majority Text that the KJV represents is over 5000 manuscripts in Greek from 3 continents, the Alexandrian is 45 manuscripts all localized within the area of Egypt and traced to ONE AUTHOR, Origen.

The Alexandrian Text was in existence prior to Westcott and Hort and are a family of manuscripts the Protestant Reformers rejected by and large. The KJV translators rejected them utterly, as the Alexandrian also is entirely 100 percent Roman Catholic in nature.

There was at one time a site you could read Scrivener's "Codex B(Vaticanus) and It's Allies") describing the corrupt nature of the Alexandrian manuscripts.

This is a start, as I said, this thread I think will go on for quite a while.

Grace and peace

Tony

So then they are definitely corrupted?

If this is not corrupt, what is?

Origen was essentially nothing more than a scribe assigned by the Emperor Constantine to produce a number of Bibles for the different churches after Constantine allegedly converted to "Christianity". Origen was more of a philosopher than theologian, and in the Scriptural realm codified Roman Catholicism as a systematized belief. That particular belief can be found in the manuscripts he edited, although as I said, Vaticanus was itself edited so many times as to be almost unreadable over the centuries.

Origen was an extreme ascetic(separatist) who had himself castrated after reading what Christ said about if your eye offends thee, pluck it out.

One thing you find evident in the Alexandrian manuscripts that survive today: They are written on very expensively tanned animal hides(vellum). It's apparent then that these manuscripts were abandoned very early as a textual foundation, which is why there are only 45 manuscripts in existence while the Majority text was copied onto papyrus, very cheap and widely used but not so durable. Though alleged to be "late" the Majority text is just that, the majority with over 5000 manuscripts extant. My question for the Alexandrian proponents is why would there not be over 5000 "late" copies of the Alexandrian text in evidence, if it were the "correct" text, in competition to the "incorrect" Majority text and also copied on cheap but not-so-durable papyrus?

To anyone with any logic running their thought processes, this is clear evidence the Alexandrian text was a REJECTED text, while the corrupted Catholic Vulgate, copied from the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts, was hidden away in Catholic Churches, available only in Latin to people who did not speak Latin.

It's also my firm belief that anyone who accepts any "Bible" today translated from this corrupt text or defends it is saying, simply, that the Catholic Church and it's corrupted doctrines is the only correct and true church.

Grace and peace

Tony

I thought Eusebius was assigned the task.

Origen (A.D. 184-254). Constantine didn't became emperor of Rome until 312 A.D

Before Origen can be fully blamed I have a few questions. These are practical, non-theological questions.

1. The Latin was finished by 400 AD, how long did it take before it was the primary Bible used? The Latin was made because it was the popular language of the late 300's, Greek was falling out of favor with the common people. The Latin was maintained forcibly by the RC. But my biggest question is about the initial accepting of it. How long did it take after Jerome finished it and did it have an effect on the use of the Greek in the churches in the 400's ?

2. As far as Alexandria goes, how did the rise of Islam effect those churches? Did it cause the Alexandrian texts to be abandoned due to conversion?

3. What hand did the church fathers in Alexandrian mss other than Origen have? What about Clement for instance? Or Eusebius? Or even Tertullian (Carthage)?

4. Did the various Reformation translators even have an Alexandrian mss ? When was the first discovered?

Basically asking about the political and religious climate of the region during the 2-7th centuries.

Tony, I was involved in a lengthy debate with Barry (FSSL) on FFF regarding Origen. I had believed some erroneous information at the beginning. Through a fair amount of research I was able to get a better picture of Origen's involvement with the texts. I am not an expert by any means, but I would suggest that you do some independent research before responding to others about Origen. A lot of what you have attached to Origen is actually about Eusebius, and much of what is known about Origen is based on Eusebius' writings, himself not being a model of true Biblical doctrine by any stretch.

One reference that I am currently reading is a very lengthy historical paper by Dr. Fredrick Nolan, from the mid-nineteenth century. I would let you know ahead of time that Dr. Nolan writes on a very sophisticated level. Barry threw in the towel without making it very far, because of Dr. Nolan's "convoluted" and "confusing" writing, in Barry's opinion, of course. Dr. Nolan's writings are difficult to say the least, but it is possible to follow his line of argument. The greatest flaw that I find with the essay is that there are no references given by him for follow-up examination.

The two mainstays of the Alexanderian text the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, do not even agree with each other. The Sinaiticus was found in a trash dump, at a catholic monastery at the foot of Mt. Sinai in 1844. The other in the Vatican vaults at the time of Erasmus, he was offered them but refused. Due to the apparent corruption.

There are hundreds of strike outs, eliminations of whole verses, and rewrites. Neither copy has the whole Bible.

Wescott and Hort used these two codex to make their Greek New Testament, which is even more corrupt than the original text. Which is the backbone of all the Modern Versions of the Bible. Even the NKJV, which does not follow the TR faithfully, regardless of advertisement that it does.

Jordan,
Greetings, I see from your website you are 19 years old.
I see you already have some answers there, now I want to ask you a question... a little over a year ago, you made the following post and later implied on that thread the KJV was full of errors:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4250#post4250

Now young Jordan let me ask you---in the past year, have you learned anything here that would change your mind or do you still feel the same way?

Re: "Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Parrish,

Great "detective work"! ;) And a very "appropriate" QUESTION! :cool: Have you noticed HOW the anti-King James Bible trolls have come out of the "woodwork" {and if "the shoe fits" they should wear it - no need to name, names}?

These people cannot wait for the opportunity to slander God's word or at the very least cast doubts about its veracity.

Glad to have you on board - I have a few questions about "Jordan" myself. And I will address them in my next Post (that follows).

Re: "Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

The following are "Jordan's" two previous Threads. {Please Consider: "THIS" from an 18 year old BOY! (at the time)}:

Jordan's Thread #1. <> 05-07-2008 09:52 PM <> Help Me <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...91&postcount=1
Please read through the Thread carefully (Too long to reproduce here) and see how this young man craftily asks "QUESTIONS" - to which he ALREADY KNOWS THE ANSWERS TO!


One day AFTER what "appears" to be a "SINCERE" plea for "HELP" (Jordan's Thread #1. <> "Help Me" ) - "Jordan" Posted the following Thread:

Jordan's Thread #2<> 05-08-2008 10:34 PM <> Some People Should Realize... <> http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...50&postcount=1 Jordan's Post #4 <> 05-09-2008 01:46 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #6 <> 05-09-2008 03:31 AM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #11 <> 05-09-2008 12:15 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #12 <> 05-09-2008 01:07 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
Jordan's Post #14 <> 05-09-2008 04:42 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
AFTER several people made various comments, Jordan posted Posts #21, #24, #26, #28, and #29 - (all very short and of no consequence). He then came out and revealed his "true colors" with his Post #31 (Notice the time lapse between his Post #29 and His Post #31. What do you suppose that our "young lad" was doing for that month? Hmmm?):

Jordan's Post #31 <> 06-08-2008, 06:33 PM <> Some People Should Realize...
This young man is one of the most deceptive young persons I have ever dealt with. I have met very few people of his age with so much "guile". If you read through his two previous Threads you can see how he "played" many of us, who at the beginning tried to truly "help" him. (However it didn't take some of us very long before we discovered "WHERE he was coming from") :(

Jordan's last Post was on 06-08-2008. After being thoroughly repudiated and rebuked (see Posts), he hadn't posted anything for approximately 10 months, until his newest "foray" (QUESTIONS - ALWAYS LOADED QUESTIONS! Read his clever "questions" carefully!) onto the Forum {Jordan's Thread: "Alexandrian Texts"}.

Unless this young man has repented and turned from his deceitful ways (which he hasn't publicly made known here), then he is just "baiting" whoever he can into another fruitless and unproductive debate.

Look at his "QUESTION": IF on the face of his "question" - "Jordan" CANNOT SEE that REMOVING God's WORDS from the Scriptures is WRONG, who amongst us here on the Forum are going to convince him otherwise? Hmmm? This kind of "discernment" is taught by the Holy Spirit - NOT men; and as long as this young man is determined to "find errors" in the Holy Bible, he will never understand WHY REMOVING God's WORDS from the HOLY Scriptures is not only "WRONG", but it is EVIL! :eek:

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. {This applies to BOYS & YOUNG MEN ALSO!} :mad:

After visiting Jordans website I can confirm his insincerity in his posts, particularly when he asked about what group of KJV only he would fit into himself, which is a deceitful statement in its own right because this exert of his OWN website clearly marks his own beliefs as ANTI KJB

Your Video by the way contains the same old tired arguments apostate Bible correctors have been using against the Bible, and EVERY one is easily answered and refuted.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try at least to be honest and open if you are to call yourself a Born again Child of God, not underhand and deceitful.

So because of me not being KJV only, that makes me Anti-KJV? I don't understand that, because I actually read from the KJV mostly.

Don't make accusations about me if you don't even know me.

Re: "Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Steven,

I gave up trying to deal with this deceptive young man in June of 2008. { AV1611 Bible Forums > Bible Versions > "Some people Should Realize" . Post#35 - http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5589&postcount=35 } Unless he ever has a change of heart, there is absolutely no sense in trying to reason with him. Like I said before:

It is quite obvious that he has not changed his "mode of operation" (he is still as deceitful as he was nearly a year ago - perhaps even more so) and that is one reason why I refuse to even Post anything directly to him.

[Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.]

The last time "Jordan" was on the Forum he stirred up controversy. The minute he begins to post again (after a 10 month hiatus), he is right back doing the same exact thing again!

[Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.]

Just a final comment: Please notice how he mis-"USED" the Scripture in Matthew Chapter 7.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

He took the verse OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE A "PRETEXT"! Just exactly like all Bible deniers have done for centuries. he didn't FORGET the rest of the CONTEXT - he purposely left the next verse out, that completed the principle, or the precept that the the Lord was trying to convey:

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The teaching is perfectly clear - and it's NOT that we are NOT TO JUDGE! It's - we had better be real CAREFUL when we DO judge; and NOT judge matters that we aren't familiar with. As a matter of fact in another Scripture the Lord Jesus Christ clearly commands us NOT to judge according to APPEARANCE - but TO JUDGE "RIGHTEOUS" JUDGMENT!

[John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.]

The Apostle Paul also said that we should "Judge".

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life ?

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

I have "judged" what Jordan has said (written), and I find a young man so full of guile and deceit, that he cannot SEE the blindness of his own heart. Whenever I meet "Christians" like this I always think of what Peter said to Simon (the sorcerer). Remember: The Scriptures say that Simon "BELIEVED ALSO" [Acts 8:13], but Peter told him:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

I cannot judge whether Jordan is saved or not, But I can judge that this young man is "in the bond of iniquity", and unless he repents of his attitude towards God's Holy word, no genuine Bible believer is going to take him seriously, or want to have anything to do with him.

What kind of a fool is it, who "CORRECTS" God's FINAL AUTHORITY, while all the while "professing" to believe "the Bible"? Even though I have encountered these kinds of "Christians" for over 40 years, I still "marvel" at the "results" of what a godless, atheistic, Humanistic education has had on children, and on their hearts and minds; and how HUMANISM has "affected" and "influenced" so many "Christian" young people these days, to the point where they CANNOT even discern between good and evil! :eek:"

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Alright. Well I am not coming back to this place, that's for sure, I don't feel like being around hateful, legalistic people.

I can testify that Brother George is neither hateful nor legalistic, but simply a Brother who stands for the Word of God and cannot abide it being rode over roughshot. Are you sure you are not coming back to this forum because your motives have been brought to Light using scripture? and the Holy spirit of God may have pricked your conscience as to your error in your approach?

I perceive you may have come to the forum to gather information to conclude KJV onlyists (And I do not like that term Id much prefer Bible Believer) are hateful people?? Dont you be a Hypocrite and Judge a Brother when you dont know him shortly after posting on him Judging you and not knowing you, he Judged your intentions on the forum from your OWN words, you Judged him as a person.

I Know, you know they remove verses and stuff
 

Hi, I'm a new here and have read some of your post examined by sir George. Well, I'm just wondering / bothered why you post this question that you have really answered. If so, the changing (adding, removing, altering etc.) can be found in the verses such as...ah no more I know, you know them already more than I do. But anyway, here what our Lord Jesus Christ had said against the Sadduces in His time. In Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.. Here is what I learned corcerning this statement of our Lord. We ERR because of the the ff:

1. We do not Searched the Scriptures. To searched :tsk:simply means we are to look over carefully. This is what the Berean did in Acts 17:11 "...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." With all their seaching they received the pure words of God of what Paul and Silas have preached. Today we have the preserved, pure words of God in the KJV and we need to searched it and believe like those Bereans. The Bible says in v.12 " Therefore, many of them believed;also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of the men, not a few". I'll still find another spiritual application of this verse telling us that we may belong to the "men, not a few". Again in John 5:39 our Lord insisted that we need to searched the scriptures.

2. We do not Study the Scriptures. Studying involves the rightly dividing the Word( 2 Timothy 2:15). Of course, anyone dividing the word needs the power of God. We need the Holy Spirit to teach us. It seems to me that it is really disgracefull that some rely informations only in the web:typing: for their study and not actually studying, praying earnestly in the Spirit, which results only to what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". Of course, I am not against the internet based information but what I am against is that it becomes above the word of God. Mens opinion are not to be equated with the words of God.

3. We do not Saturate our minds with the Scriptures. This simply means we no longer fill in or memorized the Scriptures. I know this is the surest way to victory over sin, doubt and despair. In Joshua 1:8 sure we all know it the promise of God to those who will not depart and meditate and observe to do accordingly what is written therein. This is the word of God or the KJV all about.:RunToKJB:

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1 Timothy 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.


Jude 25
www.fresites.weebly.com

Ahh, Jordan my "young squire"... :rolleyes:
I had hoped that your year long stay here would have convinced you of your errors. I guess mean old Bro. Parrish pulled the cover off your magic show, eh? The puppet strings have been revealed, and now you are mad. Well I have a message for you---I hope you don't get mad Jordan, I hope you get sad. Sad about the doubt you have attempted to cast on God's Holy Bible.

Please REPENT of your confusion and start honoring God's Word, young man.
I assure you the Truth is yours if you only seek it, and I pray you will see the light on the issue of Bible translations. Otherwise you are stumbling in darkness and the mire of men's scholarship... you have a lot of life ahead of you, and I exhort you to live it in TRUTH! I hope you will use this exhortation for a time of introspect, then come back one day and tell me how you changed for the better. Look carefully for your beliefs in the leaven below, and I hope you don't see yourself in the mirror my young friend...



THE CREED OF THE ALEXANDRIAN CULT

by Peter Ruckman


1. There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY but God.

2. Since God is a SPIRIT, there is NO FINAL AUTHORITY that can be seen, heard, read, felt or handled.

3. Since all books are MATERIAL, there is NO BOOK ON THIS EARTH THAT IS THE FINAL AND ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY on what is right and what is wrong; what constitutes TRUTH and what constitutes ERROR.

4. There WAS a series of writings one time which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.

5. However, this series of writings was LOST, and the God Who inspired them was UNABLE TO PRESERVE THEIR CONTENT through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria), where the first Bible teachers were (Acts 13:1), and where the first missionary trip originated (Acts 13:1-6), and where the word "CHRISTIAN" originated (Acts 11:26).

6. So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt, even though God called HIS SON OUT of Egypt (Mat. 2), JACOB OUT of Egypt (Gen. 49), ISRAEL OUT of Egypt (Exod. 15), and JOSEPH'S BONES OUT of Egypt (Exod. 13).

7. So, there are two streams of Bibles: the most accurate - though, of course, there is NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY FOR DETERMINING TRUTH AND ERROR: it is a matter of "preference" - are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, which are "almost the originals," although NOT QUITE.

8. The most INACCURATE TRANSLATIONS were those that brought about the GERMAN REFORMATION (Luther, Zwingli, Boehler, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.) and the worldwide MISSIONARY MOVEMENT of the English speaking people: the Bible that Sunday, Torrey, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, and Chapman used.

9. But we can "tolerate" these if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all, since THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY THAT ANYONE CAN READ, TEACH, PREACH, OR HANDLE, the whole thing is a matter of "PREFERENCE." You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what WE prefer: let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.

This is the creed of the Alexandrian Cult.

Re: "Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Freoheaven,

I praise God for your testimony brother, but I am just an ordinary man, who loves God's word, and will do my utmost to defend it.

Please: Call me brother (because ALL of God's children are brother's and sister's in Christ) or just George.

I have been reading and appreciating your Posts on the Forum brother, and since I have been married to a Filipina for over 48 years now, I have a soft spot in my heart for the Filipino people.

I pray God will continue to bless and use you for His glory until He returns. :amen:

Salamat at pagpalain ka ng Diyos (Thank you and God bless you )Bro. George in your defence of the Word of God.

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

www.fredsites.weebly.com

Re: "Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Fred,

My wife was born on the Island of Kauai, Hawaii and can speak Ilocano. I showed her your Post and she thinks it must be in "Tagalog", which her mom and dad (who were born in Ilocos Norte and came to Hawaii in the 1930's), could both speak and read, but sad to say she cannot.

As for me - I can only speak and read and write in English; which, sadly, is true of most Americans.

We have become good friends with brother Sammy Tabuena (who is getting married in May and will be moving to Brgy. Trapiche, Oton, Iloilo), and with brother Chette Nichols who lives just outside of Puerto Princessa, Palawan. perhaps some day the Lord will make a way where you all could meet and fellowship. If not, this Forum is the next best thing. :)

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Yah, hope someday we will... "Naimbag nga aldaw" (Good day) to you and your wife. I'm a pure Pangalatok, a local dialect but my wife is an Ilokana.



Until then:)

I stand corrected, I may have my heretics mixed up.

Grace and peace

Tony

I stand corrected on any erroneous information Tim. I'm rusty on my manuscript evidence, not having any reference works, which is why I approach it from, to me, the correct Scriptural standpoint. That is not rebuke to those who wish to discuss the manuscript evidence my friend. I don't really have time for FFF and would prefer to concentrate on any online work being confined to this forum. I entered into several of those years-long debates with little to no effect.

I have three of my own spears, so to speak. One is Romans 10:17 and inspiration. If there are no words given by God today by inspiration, then there is no salvation. The second is the "...word of God is in ALL versions" but not inspired. Why God preserves uninspired words is beyond me. The third is why there are 45 Alexandrian manuscripts, and not thousands, and why did they not compete with the Majority text;if the Alexandrian is the correct text, then why is there no evidence of it being as widespread as the Majority? The Islamic invasions of the West is no excuse, the Islamic invasions of the West caused the Majority text manuscripts to grow, if anything. That's common sense. It's common sense also to see that the Alexandrian text was rejected as corrupt.

I am going to correct any errors of mine on FFF, I don;t have time right now to play over there. The best thing that has happened to me this year was the gift of Swordsearcher, there are too many little "nuggets" from the Scriptures popping up than I have time to mine right now.

I can forgive 2000 of my books rotting in a dump right now because of a corrupt local and state government, I won't forget it. I hope if I am alive to see the Calling Out, it's as a citizen of Mexico.

If I can assist you in any way, do not hesitate to ask. I'm going to do what I was called to do and those with no inspired Scriptures know better and are going to have to fend for themselves.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Brother Samuel, I believe the monastery of St. Catherine was an Eastern Orthodox institution.

Grace and peace

Tony

[QUOTE=George;18099]Aloha brother Tony,

Before you waste very much time with "Jordan", you should review his previous "Threads: & "Posts" to see "WHERE he is coming from" and to get "a handle" on WHAT kind of person he is. WATCH OUT for the "GOTCHA" - this young man doesn't have an honest or sincere BONE in his entire body! {Check out his website - It's all about JORDAN!}

Brother, you "can bet your bottom dollar" that Jordan already knows about Origen, and is just going to "play along" or "string you along" (and others) until he sees the right moment to "pounce" and display his cunning craftiness for all to see (once again).

You're a good soldier for Christ brother George. Your desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth is sincere and like all of us, we want everyone to be aware of the truth. I thank you for this message.

I've dealt with many teens, I used to be one. If you judge me by my taste in cars and my love for Gibson and Fender guitars, I'm still 22. when I got my Swordsearcher in the mail, I was like a kid on Xmas morning and spent 4 somewhat sleepless days learning it, so much so that I forgot the difference between Origen and Eusebius:D I just don't see Jordan as a knowing agent of Satan and Zondervan Press is all. He's a young man and I know it takes patience. My Dad used to say, don't beat a dog for being a dog. I don't think you can scourge a teen for being a teen and having questions. You probably don't know this but I held the fort against a gentleman goes by the ID of Robycop3 in all the anti-KJV forums. Tim knows Roby. I ain't had the pleasure of meeting Ransom yet, I hear he is worse than Roby. He should make me a good breakfast too. You have to boil tough meat in water first before you fry it. Sometimes teens seek self esteem in taking on their elders. When I was Jordan's age and before, I taught guerrilla war to men twice my age and sometimes three times. I'm a bit hard to sneak up on. Last time I got ambushed was when I lost everything I owned and worked for in my life in an estate theft BY the state, a judge, and 2 lawyers because I believed in truth, justice, and the American Way. I assure you that will never happen again. One of the lawyers was supposed to have been working for ME.

If Jordan has any questions and wants to direct them to me, I'll be glad to answer them to the best of my ability. None of us are born Christians, God don't have any grandchildren. None of us are born with the knowledge of how to get through day to day life encoded in our DNA. We learn to look both ways crossing a street if we have been run over a few times. Jordan wants to express himself like 4 billion others on the web. His site is a lot tamer than many MYSPACE sites I have seen. If a person comes to this forum and baits people for a laugh, that's their deficit, not the forum's. If I lose through patience I'd rather do that than win with a steamroller, because I haven't really won anything. I'd rather err on the side of long-suffering.

So Jordan, what would you like to talk about dude?

Grace and peace

Tony

I have only a very basic knowledge of manuscript history. A few years back I wrote a paper as an introduction to the KJV issue and for some reason Origen and Eusebius are still etched in my memory.

FOR JORDAN

If you're really and sincerely interested in the KJV then do some research. Here are a couple of sites for starters -

http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/holland.htm


http://www.christianmissionconnectio...dy_topics.html
Look under “Why We Use the Authorized King James Version of the Holy Scriptures” and you will find several PDF files concerning the KJV.

Re: " Alexandrian Texts"
 

Aloha brother Tony,

It looks to me that you and I have much in common (when it comes to the government, financial status, etc.) but, there is one area where I will disagree (to some extent) with you and brother Tim and that is in continuing to "coddle" those "Christians" ("err on the side of long-suffering") who are determined to correct, disparage, criticize, demean, denigrate and tear down God's Holy word.

I refuse to "engage" these kind of "Christians" (whether 18 or 88) in "a meaningful dialogue", because it is a complete waste of time. I have 7 (out of 17) grandchildren that are "Jordan's" age (or older). My wife and I have raised seven children of our own, and I have observed how Humanistic psychiatry/psychology has crept into "Christian" homes and destroyed any meaningful Biblical discipline/correction to the point where young men and women are treated as "children" into their twenties!

We have two young men on the Forum (there may be more) - Paladin54 & Cody1611 who are close to "Jordan's" age and who, either one of them would make a father (or grandfather ) proud. There is NO EXCUSING "Jordan's" behavior (because he is young). Guile, deceit, cunning, and craftiness are the product of a deceitful heart, and I have found that the "soft approach" (psychiatry/psychology) not only DOES NOT WORK, but generally speaking it only makes things WORSE!

Paul said:
But on the other hand he also said to: "rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith" [Titus 1:13]

And again he stated:
In reference to sinning elders (i.e. pastors) he commanded: Is there a "contradiction" in our Bible? Of course NOT! Then what is going on? It's called having "spiritual discernment" - there are times (and people) where we are to be gentle, patient, etc. and there are other times (and people) where we are to draw the Sword of the Spirit and have at it.

Generally speaking, when I first encounter "Christians" on the Forum or elsewhere out in the world, I try to be gentle and patient (as I did with "Jordan" when he first showed up on the Forum - check out Jordan's Thread "Some People Should Realize" and my comments on Post #3).

But there comes a time when "gentleness" and "patience" is no longer called for, i.e. when there is a concerted and determined effort on the part of a "Christian" to continue correcting the word of God; or worse yet, where they will attack it or tear it down; or when they continue to insist on justifying some obvious wrongdoing (or sin) on their part (like recommending hereticks). And when that time arrives, 2 Timothy 2:23-26 no longer applies (or it will lead to compromise).

When "Christians" reach the point described above it's time for:

That time is HERE! That time is NOW! Coddling "False Teachers" (no matter what age) is unscriptural. "Tough love" (reproving & rebuking) is both appropriate and Biblical, we just have to know when and where (and to whom) to do it, and again I say - that takes "spiritual discernment".

When we are out on the street (in amongst "them" - so to speak) in their territory, and in their "home" (so to speak); we have to take a whole lot of abuse. However, when someone joins this Forum (Our Territory - Our "Home", so to speak) that's a whole different story! They are joining an "AV1611 Bible Forum"; and if they can't have the courtesy to respect the fact that we believe The Bible (A BOOK that we can hold in our hands); if they show disrespect to God's Holy words or to brethren on the Forum; if they promote heresy and false doctrine (or hereticks & false teachers); and if they are disingenuous, cunning, crafty, and demonstrate no genuine interest in the truth; I for one will NOT "forbear" and tolerate their inconsiderate, tactless, thoughtless, and sometimes blasphemous "attitude" (no matter what age).

Paladin54 and Cody1611 are good examples of young Christian men; if James & John (the sons of Zebedee) could faithfully follow the Saviour at a very young age - there is NO EXCUSE for a young "Christian" joining a Bible believing Forum and through subterfuge and deceit "pretend" to be something (or someone) he is not. Especially when he claims that our Holy Bible has errors in it!

There is a time to be patient and gentle, and there is a time to reprove and rebuke, it's NOT ALL patience and gentleness - "no matter what". There are any where's from 2 to 5 times amount of "guests" on the Forum as there are "members"; we cannot let the "gainsayers" get away with their attacks and false doctrines without challenging them and contending for our faith. Otherwise, there will be no edification - only chaos and anarchy!

You said: "I'd rather err on the side of long-suffering." I would rather not err at all! I would rather exercise "spiritual discernment" and follow Paul's example and be kind, patient, and gentle, to those people that the Scriptures indicate should be treated that way; and I shall continue to preach, teach, and warn "Christians", but also (when the Scriptures indicate the need) I will continue to "admonish" (and if that doesn't work); then "reprove" (and if that doesn't work); and at last resort "rebuke" (if necessary).

There are "Christians" that we should AVOID [Romans 16:17]; there are "Christians" that we should SHUN [1 Corinthians 11-13]; and their are "Christian" hereticks and "false teachers" that we should REJECT [Titus 3:10]!

We are living in perilous times, when the "truth" is being questioned and attacked both "within" and without of the churches. I see no reason why we should "tolerate" this blasphemy on this Forum. :eek:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Well Done, Thou Good and Faithful Servant
 

:amen: Brother, thanks for this post. This can also be a great blessing to me. Verily, I can use and share this in my Bible Study. Here in one of my Home Bible Study, there is like that of Jordan. He just come and ask/ raised many questions, (actually not listening at all) to provoke me into a debate. I see his real purpose ie. to distract the new believers. So, I want this in our next meeting to become my topic so that they could erlier be warned. Again Thanks and God bless you...:clap2:


Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

Thanks Sam, i can understand this. The History on our English Bible is fascinating,and how it led up to our KJB.

It's difficult for me to get a good grasp on the Greek Text in which our Bible came from (Antioch)and the other Greek Text that was Corrupt,from Alexandria,Egypt. also something called the Hexapla that Origen came up with.

I am just thick headed. Eventually it will sink in.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIzmRvAeDJM

God bless brothers

I could only watch about the first 2 minutes of your rambling and stumbling ironically every time you went to mention the KJB as NOT the Word of God you somehow stumbled on your words and called it the Word Of God. Your points raised in your VIDEO are so easily addressed and refuted, but to be quite honest I don't think if the truth was delivered to you you would accept it, you seem more interested in the latest growing trend of apostate Christians who desire FAME by any means, moreso off Video Blogs on Youtube. How can you be so callous as to post a link with "God bless Brothers" AND wilfully try and defame the name of Christ (promoting bibles that diminish and remove the name above all names JESUS CHRIST)and the Word of God which we all Hold as our final authority for all matters of faith and practice (NOT 200 + versions any will do !even if they contradict each other and remove entire verses and words, not just correct SPELLING and grammar as the REVISIONS of the KJB have done)
Friend we DO NOT idolize the KJB
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
we KNOW it IS the WORD OF GOD! and freely accept the truth.
You are most certainly a bitter young man who I pray has his eyes open to the truth.

Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Instead of spending time making pointless Videos against The Body Of Christ, why not spend real time researching with an OPEN mind as to the Bible version issue and let Gods Spirit SHOW YOU YOUR ERROR. By posting this video you may have appeared as some righteous Guy to whoever is stupid enough to digest your guile, but I will tell you one thing you cannot fool an almighty Sovereign God

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
Pay attention
1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

I most certainly know that most of the Brethren on this forum are praying that your eyes are opened and you cease with your attack and maligning of Gods Word, not for our sake but FOR YOUR SAKE.

I will tell you by the Word Of God why I cannot stand what apostate Christians like yourself behave like.

Psalms 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

You go right ahead Jordan and keep posting your Videos, NONE on this forum having known the truth will EVER revert to reading a diminished translation full of Philosophy and vain deceit, in which Christ's name is REMOVED many times, in which the Godhead is attacked and diminished and in which HIS BLOOD, in which OUR sins are washed has been REMOVED from modern counterfeits
Good luck with your pursuit of becoming a YOUTUBE celebrity you are well on your way to becoming a Modern Laodicean apostate Video Preacher (your calling not the Lords), who's desires are their own belly.

Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I certainly would agree with George as to NOT molly coddle this young man, he does not appear as one who seeks the truth.

I should have seen this coming,when you were offended over the christian rock business.

You would think your time could have been better spent washing dishes than sitting on youtube creating more dissension among the brethren.

Well, George, I must eat crow here. I was willing to give a young man some space to get a little learning and growth. You saw one who was already hardening against the truth. I yield to your experience, for he has revealed himself.

[QUOTE=George;18161]Aloha brother Tony,

It looks to me that you and I have much in common (when it comes to the government, financial status, etc.) but, there is one area where I will disagree (to some extent) with you and brother Tim and that is in continuing to "coddle" those "Christians" ("err on the side of long-suffering") who are determined to correct, disparage, criticize, demean, denigrate and tear down God's Holy word.

I refuse to "engage" these kind of "Christians" (whether 18 or 88) in "a meaningful dialogue", because it is a complete waste of time. I have 7 (out of 17) grandchildren that are "Jordan's" age (or older). My wife and I have raised seven children of our own, and I have observed how Humanistic psychiatry/psychology has crept into "Christian" homes and destroyed any meaningful Biblical discipline/correction to the point where young men and women are treated as "children" into their twenties!

George, thank you for the message, you bring out points and Scripture that Jordan, and all viewing this thread need to see. Jordan has, unfortunately, reached Childhood's End. He is no longer a child, but a man, legally. I have two questions for Jordan that I am sure he can achieve grow even more as he answers.

Grace and peace brother,

Tony