KJV with or without references?
 

Hi there. I'm writing from NYC. This is my first time on this forum and I've been reading the KJV for many years now. I recently came across a website that does not recommend the KJV with center/side column references since only the text is inspired. They believe one should read just the pure text of the KJV. I'm wondering what is your take on this suggestion? I was convinced enough to purchase a text only KJV published by, I believe, Trinitarian Bible Society. :)

KJB believers do not regard margin content (footnotes and references) as inspired text. If there is a chance that such text could distract someone from the pure words of God, they ought to get a printing that doesn't contain it.

Any notes or cross-references in a margin are simply a tool - some are good, some are not, and some are a mixture of both. If you use any study tools, compare what they say with the Bible itself. For example, using a cross-reference - make sure the other passage is referring to the same person, place, thing, or subject - otherwise it is not a good reference. For example, comparing 1 Thessalonians 4 (the passage about the rapture) with 1 Corinthians 15 (about being changed at the rapture) is a good reference - comparing it with the gathering of the Jews worldwide in Matthew is not, as that confuses the issue and has led many to think that Matthew 24:31 is also referring to the rapture (and therefore it must occur sometime during the Tribulation period) when it is not.

I love having a wide margin Bible where I can write my own cross-references as I find them myself. Then I know the context and that both passages are related - and that it is not just a reference put there to push someone's theological view when it truly doesn't fit.

Wait a minute Jerry, if Matthew 24:31 isn't talking about the rapture, then what is it talking about?

And since we're on the topic of cross-references, my re-printing of the 1611 referred me to
I Corinthians 15:32 "If after the maner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what aduantageth it me, if the dead rise not? Let vs eate and drink, for to morrowe wee die."
and
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himselfe shall descend rom heaven with a shout, with the voyce of th Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."


???

I am Pre-Trib and believe that the rapture of the church is before the Tribulation period, and I am firmly convinced that Matthew 24:31 is referring to gathering the Jews to Jerusalem near the end of the Tribulation period - so they are not speaking about the same gathering at all (though they both are talking about gathering of believers).

As far as the two references go that you mentioned, they may be linked together because they are both referring to the resurrection.

I'm pre-trib as well, but this still confuses me. The verse before this speaks of jesus's return as he rides on a cloud (verse 30), and there is a mighty trumpet sounded while he gathers his elect with wind from the four corners of the earth.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just confused what you mean.

I think I Thessalonians talks about a different resurrection than that of Christ, such as the resurrection of the dead before the rapture, what makes you think otherwise?

Matthew 24 is speaking about events within the Tribulation. If verse 31 is referring to the rapture, then it is not pre-trib, but closer to post-trib. The term "elect" is referring to those who are saved - during this age, it refers to Christ's body, the church - but during the tribulation it is referring to those Jews who get saved sometime during it.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

1 Thessalonians 4 is referring to the gathering of all believers, both living and dead, at the rapture. Those that have already died are raised up and the living believers will be caught up together with them. Then the tribulation will start sometime shortly after that.

Ok, now I understand what you mean about matthew 24,


And we agree regarding I Thessalonians, somehow I didn't see it.

Another example of faulty linking is seen when some Bibles link Genesis 1:2 with a passage in Jeremiah 4 and in Isaiah (can't remember the reference offhand) - to teach the Gap Theory. However, if the other two are studied out, it is revealed that it was referring to a future judgment (ie. after the time they were written) when God would judge men, not some prior judgment on some pre-creation earth when angels were supposedly judged (according to their theory).

Isa 45:18 is the reference used to teach the erroneous "gap" theory.

I used to be VERY big on study bibles and at least center column references. I never thought the notes or the references were inspired. I just used them to pieces.

After decades of using them though, I had to realize that I never got through much continuous reading because I was always using these references to chase down rabbits. I defended bunny chasing back then. But for the past 4 1/2 years I have been using a wonderful KJV w/o any helps, references, notes, columns, alternate renderings, alt readings, etc etc etc. . . .

And I just LOVE it!!!!!!!!!!!! I was saying just the other day what a major impact this has had on my sense of "hearing from God". It has increased my faith (more of the word in me) it has increased my longing for heaven, it has lifted my heart and my mind to things above where Christ sitteth!

I have a large print so it sorta has wider margins than normal (not an outright wide margin). I put in lots of references for myself (which gives me training in finding and remembering where these references are).

Now, once I finish a really good reading session, then I lay back and think back over what I read. AFter awhile I hit on what it is that I'm really not getting. Then I go to a conservative commentary (usually JFB because its quick and gets me right to where I was needing help. But sometimes John Gill because of its depth).

The quick commentary check usually helps me resolve what I was missing. Other times nothing gets me there until I've sought the Lord for it. I have recent examples of this but I'll not mention them here unless someone asks.

When I do refer to a commentary or other help, its always of the electronic variety. A believing bible study software package like Sword Searcher or E-Sword is a very terrific way to go.

Hi There. Here is an outline supporting pre-trib rapture. Hope it isn't to long.

Rapture

Jesus alluded to a rapture. His disciples were looking for a conquering Messiah, so they didn’t understand when Jesus mentioned His death and resurrection. They certainly didn’t understand concerning any rapture. He mentions we will be with Him after He comes for us.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

It seems only Paul got the revelation about the rapture. He talks about getting revelations in 2nd Corinthians 12. He explained it to the Thessalonian church because they had questions. Those who had leaned about a rapture were expecting it at any time, because there were no signs (fulfillment of prophecies) needed for it to happen. However, before the tribulation can start there is a covenant possibly meaning a 7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews (Daniel 9:27), and we disappear before the tribulation starts. One proof of this is the church is not mentioned between Revelation 4 – 19:11 when the 2nd coming takes place, and we are part of the armies which were in Heaven. In Thessalonica, they were asking about loved ones who had died, will they have to wait, or will they be raptured with them? He explains that the souls of them who died in Him (Jesus) will He bring back to be united with there bodies, which will be changed according to 1st Corinthians 15:52.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This following passage in Matthew deals with the 2nd coming. He doesn’t make a reference to the rapture until verse 32. Verse 31 deals with the 2nd coming, possibly the Jews (the elect) because Romans 11:26 says “ And so all Israel shall be saved”. It could also refer to Revelation 20:4 & 5, or both.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This next passage has to do with Christ’s 2nd coming, not the rapture. Verse 4 explains who is resurrected and when. We came back with Christ in chapter 19. Not everyone dies during the tribulation.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be *priests of God and of Christ, and shall *reign with him a thousand years. (*also see Revelation 1:6 & 5:10)

Beloved, we're straying off topic. Why do you use a bible that has/doesn't have scripture references?