New Wine?
 

If New Wine is unfermented grape juice, then what does Acts 2:13 mean?

Other mocking said "these men are full of new wine"

And then Peter says that the men are not drunken, as they suppose....

If new wine is not alcoholic, what does acts 2:13 mean?

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Maybe a modern-day paraphrase could be, "These guys are drunk on sprite."

I agree with pbiwolski. Seems they were being sarcastic.

New wine?
 

I think there's an assumption here that everyone who believes the KJV is the word of God is cut from the same cloth, so to speak. I don't believe everyone here represents the same kind of church background, theology, etc.

Myself, when the Bible says "wine" I think it means "wine." There's a lot of convoluted reasoning that goes on to explain it as meaning something else, and I think that's an American cultural phenomenon.

Cooling and preservation as we know them did not exist at the time of Christ. You could have fresh grape juice when it was fresh, and you could have wine or vinegar later, but there was no way to keep fruit juice as juice.

You can't believe God preserved the words of Scripture in the AV, then decide you want to explain them away because the idea of drinking wine makes you uncomfortable . . .

Lee

I don't have to explain anything away Lee. Yes they did have cooling methods then. They are called caves. Yes they did have preservatives, natural sulfites.

The only folks who want to believe Jesus made alcoholic wine are those who want to conform the Bible to their naturalistic thinking, and perhaps have their alcohol too. Wine is a generic term in the Bible, and is explained in context whether alcoholic or not, not by "convoluted reasoning". It is easily understood by those who have no problem with being under authority of God's preserved words.

I wasn't trying to explain it away.

The Bible is clear that new wine is in the cluster (grapes)

Isa 65:8 Thus says the LORD: "As the new wine is found in the cluster, and they say, 'Do not destroy it, for there is a blessing in it,' so I will do for my servants' sake, and not destroy them all.

And the Bible is clear that alcohol is wicked and against the good things of God. So I was wondering what this verse is meaning, that seems to imply that new wine makes men drunk (when it is the old wine that is alcoholic). The sarcasm approach, based on the word "mocking" makes sense to me. Thankyou :)

In my observation, the word "juice" is only found one time in the Bible, and the word "wine" is often used instead of it. I think "new wine" is referring to "juice", and "wine" or "strong drink" refers to alcoholic beverage.
As shown above, that they are drunk with new wine at day time is a very sarcastic statement

If you say "the Bible says 'wine' but it doesn't mean 'wine', it means 'fruit juice'", I don't see how that's any different from someone saying "the Bible says 'blood' but it doesn't mean 'blood', it means 'XYZ'". The basic principle of approaching the Bible text is to take it at its clear meaning. The Bible says what it says.

This, to me, is an example of how we hold to cultural ideas and values (in this case, ideas stemming from the 19th and 20th century abstinence movements in the U.S.) even when the Bible's teaching is something else.

I think you can make a case against drunkenness from the Bible, but you can't make a case for abstinence.

Lee

Here are a few verses to consider.

Prov. 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

New wine coming out of the press - huh. (See Gen. 40:10-11 for additional information on the press connected with the vine.)

Is. 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster,...

So that's where God says new wine can be found - in the cluster, the field, the vine.

Joel 1:10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. 11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. 12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

Hag. 1:11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.

It seems the God is pretty clear about the subject after all. ;)

Now, if we follow LeeM1023 we'd find out that Jesus Christ was in violation of the word of God when he preformed His miracle in John 2.

Hab. 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

My, my, my, is that really what you want to suggest about our Saviour? :eek:

You had better be careful with what you say in regards to "wine" in the Bible.

Hi, LeeM1023!
Let's remember that context determines meaning and that the KJV has its own built-in definition. Let me present some obvious examples:

If a "house" mean nothing else but a house, then can a house (the building) believe and be saved? (Acts 16:31) Does a house (building) serve the Lord (Jos. 24:14)? Did Noah's house (building) walked inside the ark?

How about the "meat offering" (flour) in Leviticus 2 or the "meat" in Genesis 1 (plants)?

There are many types of "wine", and the Bible calls fresh grape juice "new wine".

Wine, etc.
 

The word "meat" in 17th century English meant "food" generally speaking. It's not used that way in modern English, but it's understood in context. The word "house" is used still in modern English to mean the people or things inside a house; that's normal usage.

And the word "wine" means "wine." "New wine" is a specific phrase that refers to the unfermented juice. At the wedding in Cana I believe that what Jesus made was wine, plain and simple. It doesn't say "new wine". Do you honestly believe the practice at a wedding party in that time was to serve grape juice?

Lee

Doesn't John 2:10 make it clear what is meant by "wine?" In reading what the Bible says about wine, it is clear that drunkenness is sin ("And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" Eph 5:18; "given to wine" Ti 1:7; "excess of wine" 1Pe 4:3). But you really have to do some fancy acrobatics to turn wine into "grape juice" in passages like John 2, and what meaning does Romans 14:21 have if drinking wine is sin? We can't say drinking grape juice is a stumbling block to someone, can we? And is drunking much grape juice a sin (1Ti 3:8)? No? So why does it say much wine if what is meant is any wine?

Let's honestly examine scripture and use it to shine the light of truth on our traditions.

Jesus could not have drunk alcoholic wine at the wedding feast, or He would have been disobeying the Bible commands concerning kings and princes.

Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink


Jesus is King, and the Prince of Peace

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS, and
He is The Prince of Peace. If He drank wine or strong drink,
then He would have disobeyed the Bible command for
kings and princes — which would have made Him a sinner.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If Jesus was a sinner, then He could not be our Savior. He would have had to die for His own sins, because the Bible says in
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Proverbs 23:20 says that we are not to be “among winebibbers"

Proverbs 23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

If Jesus would have been at a wedding
reception where people were drinking alcohol, then He would have been
disobeying the Bible. That would make Him a sinner, and unable to be our Savior.

Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

The Bible says that a companion of fools shall be destroyed. It also says that people who drink wine and strong drink are not wise. Now if someone is not wise, what is he? A fool. The Bible tells us that a companion of fools shall be destroyed, and that people who drink alcohol are fools. So that means if a person hangs around people who drink liquor, then he will become a fool himself.

If Jesus had made alcoholic wine for a bunch of people who had already been drinking so much of it that they were drunk, then He would have been helping a bunch of drunk people get more drunk.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The Bible says that the drunkard shall not inherit the
kingdom of God. If Jesus helped a bunch of drunk people
get more drunk, then He would have been helping send
people to hell by His miracle. If Jesus was doing things to help
send people to hell, then He was clearly sinning. If Jesus
sinned, then He could not be the Savior of the world.

Luke 19:10 says that Jesus, the Son of man, came “to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Jesus did not come to help send more people to hell — they do a good enough job of that themselves. He came to save people from their sins.

According to John 3:17, “God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

It is very serious to say that Jesus made alcoholic wine for people that were already drunk. He did no such thing. He longs that every precious soul would turn from his/her sin to Him, and be saved.

(courtesy Brother Austin)

John 2 does not say Jesus drank any of the wine he made. (It also does not say "new wine," not that the new/old wine thing has anything to do with whether or not it is alcoholic.)

1. It also says not to be among "riotous eaters of flesh." If people who drink any amount of wine are winebibbers, then people who eat any meat are "riotous eaters of flesh" -- have you been to some of these old-fashioned Baptist pot lucks? :D

John 2 doesn't mention drunkenness. Are you assuming that?

It is indisputable that drunkenness is sin. It is also indisputable that it takes more than a small amount of alcohol to become drunk. Otherwise, I hope you are real careful about which cough medicine you buy.

John 2 doesn't say anything about drunks. It says "wine." So does 1Ti 5:23.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

This is the "ruler of the feast" speaking as to the custom of holding back the worse wine (which would be newer, not older); it does not say the men were intoxicated, which was my point. This verse doesn't help the case that wine means grape juice, unless the ruler of the feast couldn't tell the difference between grape juice and alcoholic wine. Or are you are saying the Lord made grape juice that tasted like alcoholic wine? To what end?

It is not as if this is the only passage that is relevant here. Romans 14 is much more important since it is Paul speaking directly to our conduct:

Romans 14:21-23 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would strain credulity to call wine "grape juice" in this passage since there is nothing offensive to someone about drinking grape juice. Moreover this passage tells us how our conduct should be regarding this very issue. Adding rules about consuming wine goes beyond what Paul teaches here and is therefore legalism.

1 Timothy 3:
2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;"

If bishops are forbidden wine, then why should we as Born Again Christians drink wine period?

Luke 1:15 "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

The above verse is talking about John. He never drank wine or strong drink. This leads me to think that the abstinence of wine will improve our spiritual life. Wine is for the flesh, not the spirit. Alcohol has brought so much death, so why even take a sip of it?

The word "wine" is used throughout the Bible and to define what wine means in different passages you will need much study and the Holy Spirit to lead you.

"Juice when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called 'must', and in common language 'new wine'." Dr. Ure, Dictionary of Arts

"Sweet wine is that which has not yet fermented." Chamber's Cyclopedia 6th edition (1750)

"The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grapes is called vinum (wine)." Parkinson, Theatrum Botanicum

"When on the south coast of Italy last Christmas, I enquired particularly about the wines in common use, and found that those esteemed the best were sweet and unintoxicating...The Calabrians keeps their intoxicating and unintoxicating wines in separate apartments...I found that the unfermented wines were esteemed the most. Great pains were taken in the vintage season to have a good stock of it laid by." Captain Treat, in 1845, Dr. Lee's Works

From the above quotes, we see wine does not always contain alcohol.

The phrase is "given to wine," and five verses later, it says "given to much wine." (I hope you are not suggesting that the definition of wine changes in the space of five verses and that "much wine" means "much grape juice.") "Given to" is the key -- as in "given to hospitality."

Clearly you are correct here.


Paul told Timothy to use "a little wine," and since grape juice is not used medicinally, and given the other uses of the same word by Paul, I can't abide by your declarations here. However, based on Romans 12, you should clearly not be drinking any alcohol at all -- and I have nothing negative to say about anyone who comes to that conclusion in their life. What bothers me is the condemnation of people who consume light amounts of alcohol (not to excess or drunkenness) when there is no basis for such blanket condemnation beyond traditions and culture.

You then proceed to quote several things that did not come from the Holy Spirit. I'm at a loss on how to deal with that, other than to suggest you Google "young wine" (in the same spirit you have offered your extra-Biblical authorities). Young/new wine is not non-alcoholic. But it is not my wont to offer extra-Biblical sources for understanding the Bible, which is why I have restricted myself to only comparing Scripture with Scripture. Nobody seems to want to explain to me how Romans 12 makes any sense if "wine" isn't wine.

My point with the quotes from people in earlier times is that sometimes we need to look back at history to see what the word meant back then. I agree with you though, we should define scripture with scripture. My apology.

FYI,

there is a table wine you can buy today it has a low alcoholic level between 2 and 4% it is used when eating and it is usually sweet. many families in europe use this wine regularly even in Christian home's. this type of wine would be difficult to get drunk on because you would need to dring an excessive amount. wine drank with meals has been proven to help in digestion of food.

Wine's like Merot, Cabernei Sauvenau (sp?) are strong wines usually around 12%alcohol level. these wine when drank in small amounts help in the blood circulation and apetite of sick people who are having a hard time with illnesses that effect the stomach. also this wine would kill amieba (sp) in the water that was being drank. most old world nations have water tables polluted with them. Even here in the Philippines there are areas where the water cannot be drank even from a closed deep well do to them. alcohol will kill them if mixed with strong wines. wines eventually will turn to vinegar if left to long.

Also the Bible tells us the strong drink is for the physically weak and those about to die. the reason is obveious it helps deaden the pain. also it was recommended Biblically to give to the one who was mourning or heart broken to help cheer them. the sin is not inthe drinking of wine it is DRUNKENESS.

Something else that needs to be brought in to consideration is the time and the place and culture. Was wine (regular, low alcoholic table wine) common at meals in that period? Also - Jesus is God - He makes the rules. Remember that he came against the RELIGIOUS people of His day due to their stringent rules and traditions. (I see a lot of that HERE in this forum :) ) Jesus said He was the Lord of the Sabbath and did things contrary to the traditions of men - even when clearly in the old testament "the Lord commanded" and Moses wrote it down - Jesus made changes as He lived among them.

Lighten up folks and LIVE for Christ, in the Joy of the Lord.

Hello, everybody! Some thought came across me which I think I may share impromptu:

I guess the KJV "built-in" dictionary defines "wine" various ways. Using ONLY THE BIBLE TO DEFINE THE BIBLE, here are my rough observations:

1. "Juice" is mentioned ONCE in the KJV and it does not refer to grape juice.
2. There is a "wine" that is "juice of my pomegranate" .

Song of Solomon 8:2 I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.


3. There is a "wine" that can make a person "drunken".

Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

4. There is a "wine" that is a "strong drink".
5. There is a "wine" that is "vinegar".
6. There is a "wine" that is a "liquor".
7. There is a "liquor" that is of "grapes".

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

8. There is a "strong wine" and it was a "drink offering".

Numbers 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

9. "Wine" is either or not "strong drink".

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

10. "Wine" is either or not "grapes".

Deuteronomy 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.

11. "New wine" is either opposite of "old wine" or opposed to "strong drink" .

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Are Christians to drink "wine"? Yes or No, or Yes and No?

My answer would be: "Which wine?" 2 Tim. 2:15

May Christians "drink moderately" (as all wine ads on TV say) strong wine? Yes or No, or Yes and No?

My answer would be, will I be able to convince some older members of the church "who were in Christ before me" to quit buying San Miguel Beer, if they see "red wine" in my home? If I say, that's just for "cooking" or for "my stomach's sake", they would say Tanduay Rhum or Red Horse Beer are our "vitamins".

Just want to inform everybody that I was brought up in a legalistic childhood (under tutor, under the law) but trained in a liberalistic youth (under grace). I'm over 21, and as an adult(although I think I'm still a child living with my parents handling adult responsibilities), I had seen the legalist camp and the liberal camp and I felt the need to choose. One camp says, "Don't!"; the other camp says, "Why not?" Out of my liberal mind (as my personality test shows that I am "liberal", rather than "conservative"), I seem to see the advantage of putting the fence farther away from the cliff.

I have seen first-hand and heard testimonies that faithful church members who quit drinking got back to their "works of darkness" (drinking beer with former, unsaved friends beside the street, with matching videoke and worldly singing) after hearing their pastor teach "moderation". I remember a pastor's kid (a girl) saying "God bless" as she stumbled home after drinking pomelo gin "moderately".

In this confused world, while I know I have liberty in Christ and all things are lawful unto me, I believe all things are not expedient. I will take heed lest I fall, and not condemn myself in the thing which I "alloweth". If my pastoral-liberty-drink would make my weak-brother-drunkard to offend, I would drink no wine while the world standeth. (Biblestudent Paraphrase Version 2008:D)

I've heard some of my Bible teachers emphasize that there is no total abstinence of wine in the Bible. I believe that. I've also seen "big things" come from "small things", and I read in the Bible to be careful of condemning oneself with what he allows. I'll do my best to do that! :) God bless us all!

Biblestudent

Amen brother Sammy!

I was saved in October of 1958 and have never been "drunk" since then. From 1958 until 1963 I avoided drinking "alcoholic beverages", but would on very rare occasions have a beer with some of my island friends (in order to not "offend"). In 1963 I came to the personal conviction that, although I didn't believe it was a sin for me to have a beer or a glass of wine, I would no longer "imbibe" in any alcoholic beverages, in order to avoid all "appearance of evil" and causing someone to "stumble". I have been a "teetotaler" ever since, but do not think that it makes me any more "spiritual" than any other Christian.

We should not confuse "personal convictions" with clear Bible precepts and commands. For instance - my wife & I:

• Do not drink any "alcoholic beverages" - but I do not condemn those Christians that have a glass of wine with their meal, although I firmly believe that "moderation" is the key here. (Although if asked - I highly recommend total "abstinence" - in order to avoid the appearance of evil and not give occasion to stumble others)

• Have not celebrated Christmas since 1969 - but I do not condemn or even criticize those Christians that do. (Although if asked - I will tell them that the Lord Jesus Christ was definitely not born on the 25th. of December)

• Homeschooled all seven of our children from 1973 up to the late 1990's - but do not condemn or criticize those Christians that send their children to the government schools. (Although if asked - we recommend against sending Christian children to Humanists for instruction & training)

You will notice that my wife and I came to these "personal convictions" over a period of time. No one "forced" them on us - we embraced each one (and others) after personal study and being personally convicted by the Holy Spirit about these and other issues.

Thanks again for you comments and the Scriptures. It's obvious from just a cursory examination of the Scriptures that the word "wine" in the Bible can mean a variety of things and we should be careful not to put "private spin" on the word in order to enforce a "personal conviction". :(

I'm curious why it is a sin for Jesus to drink a little wine (with alcohol in it)?

7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

I imagine some of you will say "well Jesus was drinking grape juice and they mistakenly thought he was boozing" but I just don't buy this approach. Perhaps my thinking isn't within the correct context of this passage, but it doesn't appear so. Also I think this passage clearly demonstrates that a winebibber isn't just anyone that has a drink, but is to wine as eating is to glutonny.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

EDIT: btw, we Mennonite generally don't involve ourselves with wine and strong drink simply because of the dangers involved. I used to drink myself and can attest to the dangers that I experienced. I think it is wise to err on the side of caution with alcohol.

Apart from our traditions which calls drinking a sin but the Bible never mentions the sin of drinking. The Bible call the sin the sin of drunkeness, this would be an excess of wine.

sin of smoking is also never found in the Bible. but it would have to be a stewardship issue. so in that sence it is a sin to abuse your body with tobacco.

In North Carolina many Baptist churches there have congregations that smoke. they are tobacco growers.

But I wonder how many corn growers in Iowa drink whiskey or barley growers in Nebraska drink Beer and attend church?

When I was not on the right path, I drank. I was depressed, life was not a bed of roses. I knew what I was doing was wrong in the eyes of the LORD but I still rebelled against that feeling and drank more. Now I, having been in the darkest depths of despair through alcohol and other substances could feel the change in personality starting even after 1 or 2 beers and then,a progression onto a need for other stronger drinks.
Wine is a Mocker yes, its the devil Mocking your weakness
Strong Drink is raging yes, it makes a normally peaceful person aggressive.
Now when I think back to those hazy days and look at a bar, I see familiar "Spirits" and THANK THE LORD MY GOD that I am delivered and forgiven from that nightmare that is alcohol and strive through his Grace not to put those spirits into my Temple EVER again.
I beg the liberals, don't be liberal concerning booze. People say things they normally wouldn't say after 1 drink, do things they normally wouldn't do after 1 drink. If its not the "Buzz" that Christians are after then why drink at all?
Alcohol is a destroyer when consumed, I have felt it destroying me and watched it destroy others around me, its from the devil. And for those that say, "well, its good in moderation for my heart", put the glass down and go for a 10 min walk, thats even better for you heart.

In My Saviour's name, The LORD Jesus Christ

Amen, Brother!

Amen! Great post!

there are however Biblical guidlines for drinking. the Bible says wine is to be given those with a heavy heart and strong drink to those who are dying.

God never says the sin is drinking, again it is drunkeness for if drinking were a sin and look at this verse if God were against the drinking he would be wrong to say this to Israel, And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strongdrink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, Duet. 14:26.

Great to hear you are set free fro the sin of drukeness and given your background even one drink would be to much for your adictive personality. most of us have that problem and it is best we don't drink at all. My testamony of coming out of drug addiction and alcoholism points only one sorce of my deliverance and that is my Lord Jesus Christ.and he drank wine ocasionally

Chette, you're stretching it pretty far on that one.

Your quote from Prov. 31 puts the emphasis on the wrong fellow.

4. It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5. Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

If you're going to make any application to today from this then you'd have to say that the drinking is for the LOST man and not the saved. No born again Christian is poor in Christ Jesus, etc...

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Worse yet, you of all people using a verse in Deut. (considering its context fully) to make allowance for the sin of drinking booze today.

You're talking about (1) Jews (2) in their land (3) bringing a special offering (4) to special place (5) at a special time - yearly, and then (6) preforming a special ceremony before the Lord.

If you can get that its alright for a Christian to consume alcohol out of that, you're streeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching it!

I am not advocating drinking for anyone. however the Sin for Lemuel would be in forgetting the law and prerverting justice that is why they are to put off wine and strong drink.

But Duet does say what it says. however it is for Israel only and I know that.

and the sin is in Drunkeness, drunkards and drunks. not in those who drink wine.

Again I am not saying nor did I say it was ok or alright for a Christian to drink alcohol I only said the sin was not in drinking but in being a drunkard and drunkeness.

If the sin is in the drinking of alcoholic wine, then God would be unrighteous to tell Israel to do so in Duet, and Jesus would be a sinner for drinking wine. (a winebibber is one who consumes to much Alcoholic wine not juice so the Pharisees knew it was alcoholic wine or they couldn't make the claim).

Neither God not Jesus are unrighteous or sinful. when a man says it is a sin to drink and he teaches that from his pulpit he is making God unrighteous and Jesus a sinner.

But if he will teach it correctly and show that drunkeness is where sinfulness arises and councels those who cannot control their addictive personalities to avoid drinking at all cost because it will lead them to drunkeness. and by example refrains from drinking alcoholic breverages. that man is teaching the whole council of God.

and he can use Prov 31 as a reason for avoiding drinking wine. for that verse does not teach drinking is a sin but clearly shows us if a person gets to drinking his addictive sinfulness leads him to drunkeness where he will forget the Law (have not inhibitions) and pervert justice (he will show biasness in his judgements and decisions.)

In that case, I see that we agree on that point 100%, Bro. Chette. Amen!

In researching this I came across a commentary and I agree with it:

Deut 14:22 - this is the tithe
Deut 14:23 - this tithe was to be EATEN
Deut 12:16 - not to eat blood
Duet 12:17-18 - they were not to eat in their gates, but they were eat before the Lord IN THE PLACE which God chose
Duet 14:23 - the Lord reminded them to eat this tithe IN THE PLACE, which is Jerusalem
So in Duet 14:23-25 God allowed them to sell their tithe, buy what ever they need for their offerings, and travel to Jerusalem

In Duet 14:23, the offering is described as corn, oil, wine and firstlings. The corn mixed with oil was a meat offering as in Lev.2:14-16, which was either fried in a pan, or baked in an oven(Lev.2:4-7). The firstlings were offered with corn flour,wine and oil according to their size(larger animals required larger quantities of corn,wine,oil - Num.15:3-11). In those offerings, the priests did not drink the wine (Lev.10:9). The wine was poured out unto the LORD or perhaps, applied to the sacrifice, like a marinate or sop. Therefore, the Lord said " thou shalt EAT there before the LORD thy God", because they were not drinking the wine, oil or strong drink when they offered in Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, according to Num 28:7, the strong drink ( or strong wine) was not drunk, but rather it was poured unto the LORD as a drink offering. So not to worry, Duet 14:23 does not advocate drinking strong drink. According to the Bible, we find the following negative connections concerning "strong drink":

Lev 10:9 it was forbidden to the priests in the tabernacle

Num 6:3 it was forbidden to the Nazarites

Deut 29:5-6 it was forbidden to the Jews in the wilderness [so that they might know the Lord]

Jud 13:4 it was forbidden to Samson's mother

Prov 20:1 it is raging and it is a deceiver

Prov 31:4 it is forbidden to kings and princes [see Rev 5:10]

Is 5:22-23 it perverts judgment

Is 28:7 it causes men to err

Is 56:12 it is addictive

Mic 2:11 it is the drink of choice of false prophets [like Catholic priests]

Lk 1:15 it was forbidden to John the Baptist


So in light of all this, it would be very difficult to for one to make a case that God wants us to drink strong drink!

New Wine?
 

In researching this I came across a commentary and I agree with it:

Deut 14:22 - this is the tithe
Deut 14:23 - this tithe was to be EATEN
Deut 12:16 - not to eat blood
Duet 12:17-18 - they were not to eat in their gates, but they were eat before the Lord IN THE PLACE which God chose
Duet 14:23 - the Lord reminded them to eat this tithe IN THE PLACE, which is Jerusalem
So in Duet 14:23-25 God allowed them to sell their tithe, buy what ever they need for their offerings, and travel to Jerusalem

In Duet 14:23, the offering is described as corn, oil, wine and firstlings. The corn mixed with oil was a meat offering as in Lev.2:14-16, which was either fried in a pan, or baked in an oven(Lev.2:4-7). The firstlings were offered with corn flour,wine and oil according to their size(larger animals required larger quantities of corn,wine,oil - Num.15:3-11). In those offerings, the priests did not drink the wine (Lev.10:9). The wine was poured out unto the LORD or perhaps, applied to the sacrifice, like a marinate or sop. Therefore, the Lord said " thou shalt EAT there before the LORD thy God", because they were not drinking the wine, oil or strong drink when they offered in Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, according to Num 28:7, the strong drink ( or strong wine) was not drunk, but rather it was poured unto the LORD as a drink offering. So not to worry, Duet 14:23 does not advocate drinking strong drink. According to the Bible, we find the following negative connections concerning "strong drink":

Lev 10:9 it was forbidden to the priests in the tabernacle

Num 6:3 it was forbidden to the Nazarites

Deut 29:5-6 it was forbidden to the Jews in the wilderness [so that they might know the Lord]

Jud 13:4 it was forbidden to Samson's mother

Prov 20:1 it is raging and it is a deceiver

Prov 31:4 it is forbidden to kings and princes [see Rev 5:10]

Is 5:22-23 it perverts judgment

Is 28:7 it causes men to err

Is 56:12 it is addictive

Mic 2:11 it is the drink of choice of false prophets [like Catholic priests]

Lk 1:15 it was forbidden to John the Baptist


So in light of all this, it would be very difficult to for one to make a case that God wants us to drink strong drink!

OOPS!! I posted twice, and I meant Duet 14:26 - my bag

Post twice about strong drink, think twice about strong drink :)

AMEN!

The key word in that phrase is the word 'mocking'. The ones mocking knew the wine that the Apostle's drank was not alcoholic in content.

Peter even affirmed this when he answered, These men are not drunk as ye suppose seeing it is but the third hour of the day...'

Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5 that '...they that be drunken are drunken in the night.' Paul went on to say that we are 'of the day' and that we are to remain 'sober'.

Peter's statement affirms that they did not drink an alcoholic wine at all. They drank a non-alcoholic wine. This was the same wine that Isaiah recorded was found in the cluster. It was the same wine that Isaiah spoke of when he wrote 'shall tread out no wine in their presses'.

Talk to any vintner today and they will tell you their wines are not made in the presses at all, but rather after the fresh juice is removed from the presses.

Alcohol is made by a process after the juice has left the press. The wine spoken of by Isaiah the prophet in chapter 16 was a non fermented wine. It was this same wine that the Apostle's drank.

How can I be sure that they were drinking a non alcoholic wine?

By Jesus' words when He answered the Pharisees who accused Him of being a winebibber.... "But wisdom is justified of her children".

Just as Jesus was accused falsely of drinking alcohol, His Apostle's were later accused falsely of drinking alcohol

The Greek word for "new wine" in Acts 2:13 is gleukos. This is the only place in the NT where you will find this word. Here is the definition from Strongs:

gleukos glyoo'-kos
akin to 1099; sweet wine, i.e. (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:--new wine.

Apparently these mockers were trying to debunk the miracle of tongues and slander the apostles because of the many languages they were using to preach the Gospel. The apostles were certainly NOT "drunk in the Spirit"...they were "filled with the Spirit". Nowhere in Scriptures does it say to be "drunk in the Spirit"...but we are to be "filled with the Spirit":

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (Ephesians 5:18)

But we are all supposed to represent Christ.

When the Bible says wine, it does indeed wine. But reading Scripture in context will show one whether the wine was alcoholic or not. For instance, the word 'cider' can mean a non fermented apple juice, or it can mean a fermented beverage; yet it is the same word.

In both the Hebrew and Greek language, many words had more than one definition.

When we consider wine in the Bible times, we must ask ourselves, 'How can the Son of God approve of that which His Father referred to as poison in the last book of the Law, Deuteronomy 32:33? Why would the Son of God put a poison to another man's lips to manifest His glory at the first of His miracles as recorded in John 2:1-11?

The answer is obvious, He would not.

As we know them today, i.e., refridgerators, freezers, etc., cooling and preservation did not exist, true, but... indeed they did have methods of cooling and preservation.

Pliny, Plutarch, Aristotle, Columella, Josephus, and other Historians of Bible time have written extensively on preservation methods that were used to prevent fermentation of wine. One of those methods was to boil the juice of the grape down to a consistency like syrup. The bacteria that causes grape juice to ferment is killed of when the temperature of the juice reaches 176° Farhenheit. Grape juice does not boil until it reaches 212° Farhenheit. According to historical records then, by boiling the juice, they were assured of stopping the fermentation process.

I encourage you to go to a local library or a University library and look for a book called "On Agriculture". This book was written more than 1700 years ago and records methods for preserving wine in its unfermented state. Research all the historians I mentioned above as well.

Actually, since the Word of God commands 'Look thou not upon the wine when IT...,' not 'when you,' we have to stand on the Word of God and the command to abstinence.

Notice in Proverbs 23:31, the subject is the wine, not the person... Look not upon the wine when IT...

Many like to use that passage to say one can drink in moderation, but that passage teaches just the opposite.