Does the KJB position "blow up"?
 

Does the KJV only position “blow up”?

“Seek ye out of THE BOOK OF THE LORD, and read” - Isaiah 34:16

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise” - 1 Corinthians 1:19

The one argument the “No Bible is inerrant” crowd continually throws in our face as being unanswerable is this: “Where was the perfect and inerrant Bible before 1611?”

Here are some direct quotes from a seminarian who thinks this question completely destroys our position. He writes: “I must ask you this in return, where was the Word of God prior to the KJV being written? This is where your position blows up at. You MUST claim that God didn't write an infallible Bible until 1611 if you hold to all of this. Can you name where the "complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true wordS of God existed before the KJV was translated?" The answer needs to stay consistent with your position. Don't say they were found here or there. You MUST, to be consistent, say a specific Bible in a specific language that the "complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true wordS of God" were located.”

Keep in mind that these King James Bible critics do not believe that there EVER existed a perfect and inerrant Bible in ANY language (including their Hebrew and Greek) and they certainly do not believe there exists one NOW. The force of their argument is that since there was no perfect and inerrant Bible before the King James Bible, then the King James Bible itself cannot be the perfect words of God anymore than their favorite, multiple choice and contradictory bible versions. They don’t defend any of their modern versions like the RSV, NASB, NIV, ESV, NET, NKJV or Holman Standard as being the inerrant words of God in contrast to the other versions. Most of them don’t claim to have an inerrant Bible but they take offence at our claim that we do.

There are only three options open to them. #1. “Only the originals were inspired and inerrant.” It should be pointed out that the originals never did form a 66 book Bible and they have not seen a single word of these “originals” a day in their lives. It also leaves us without a perfect and inerrant Bible NOW.

#2. “All reliable bible versions (NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NKJV, Holman, KJV, Spanish, German etc.) are the inerrant words of God.” How someone with the discernment of lime jello can say such a thing is beyond me, but I do run into this type of nonsense. These versions differ among themselves by omitting or adding literally THOUSANDS of words from the New Testament alone, and the modern versions change the meanings of hundreds of verses and often reject the Hebrew readings, and not even in the same places as the others. Not one of them agrees textually with any other in scores if not thousands of places. Try arguing that they are all “the inerrant words of God” before a court of law or even a high school debating team and you will be laughed out of the room.

#3 There really is a complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true Holy Bible and history and the internal evidence points to the Authorized King James Bible as being the Final Written Authority and the true words of the living God. You only have these three options. There is no other alternative.

There is a huge difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God. As God says in Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Far as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

And again God says in 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 “For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?”

I readily admit that “the book of the LORD” (the Holy Bible) was in a rather lengthly process of being perfected and brought to full maturity, but I and thousands of other Bible believers hold that the final product was and is the King James Bible. In general terms the Bible versions that existed before the perfection of the King James Bible followed the same Hebrew texts and the traditional Greek texts. For example, you will find 1 John 5:7 in Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Bishops’ Bible 1568 and the Geneva Bible 1560 to 1602. However there was no perfect and inerrant Bible until God brought forth His finished product in the King James Bible.

“God calls those things that be not as though they were”

I believe that those who say there must have been a perfect Bible before the King James Bible or our position falls to the ground as being inconsistent are guilty of using the wisdom of men rather than the wisdom of God, and their thinking is decidedly unbiblical.

Was there a perfect Bible consisting of the present 66 book canon in the year 90 A.D? No. Not all of it had even been written yet. Why is it that the God of history didn’t allow the invention of the printing press until around 1455 A.D? Most Christians didn’t even have an opportunity to have their own copy of any printed Bible till around 1550.

In the wisdom of God something can be in the process or even non-existent and yet God calls it done. This is totally contrary to the wisdom and ways of men. God refers to “the book of the LORD” before it is even finished and certainly before it was gathered into one single volume.

Read through the 34th chapter of the prophet Isaiah. Here God records the coming judgments upon all nations when the host of heaven shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll. We find similar reference to these future events in the book of the Revelation. Though none of these things had actually happened at the time Isaiah wrote them, yet God sometimes referred to these events as having already happened. - “he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.”; “my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” (Isaiah 34:2, 16)

So too in this chapter we read about “the book of the LORD”. “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail...” (Isaiah 34:16) What exactly was this “book of the LORD” at Isaiah’s time in history? Was it all the books of the Bible written up till the time of Isaiah? Was it just the book of Isaiah? In either case the Bible as we know it today was not a completed Book. Isaiah was still being written at this time and there yet lacked many other Old Testament books still to be written. And that’s not even mentioning the entire New Testament. Yet God calls it “the book of the LORD” and commands us to read it.

God can and does refer to the Book of the Lord as being a real object even though it is still in the process of being written and perfected. Yet He sees the end from the beginning and refers to a future event (from our point of view) as a present reality.

Let’s look at some other Biblical examples of where God calls something that is not as though it were. In Genesis 17:5 God tells Abraham: “Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; FOR A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE THEE.”

The Bible critic using human logic and wisdom can easily say: “Hey, wait a minute. Abraham didn’t have any children at this time. There was no Isaac nor Ishmael; no Esau nor Jacob, and certainly not the nation of Israel much less other nations (plural). God must be wrong. The Bible can’t be true and inerrant.”

Yet the verse is repeated again in the New Testament were we read in Romans 4:17 “(As it is written, I HAVE MADE THEE a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE.”

What we see here is God naming something as real and yet it wasn’t fulfilled in history till some 2000 years later. God was in a long process of gradually bringing about the fulfillment of His promises, yet He referred to them as something He had already accomplished.

Psalms 12:6-7 says: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

I believe that these verses, like many other Scriptures, have a double fulfillment. It can only be seen in the second way after it has happened, not before. How many prophecies of Christ Himself were not understood until after they had happened? Many if not most of them.

Even at the time of the writing of Psalm 12 not all but maybe half of God's words had been penned, yet they are and were pure at that time. Are all the rest of the O.T. books that were written after David penned Psalm 12 part of the words of the Lord? Yes, we believe so. How about the whole New Testament, are they also part of the pure words of the Lord? Again, we affirm that they are. If God was going to keep them from this generation for ever, then He must have included what He knew would be written in the future as a present reality - the words of the LORD. Obviously God's words over the centuries had become corrupted through false readings, omissions and additions. If God did not purify them, then there never would have been a perfect Bible.

We see the same Biblical principle in the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 17:4 where He says: “I have glorified thee on the earth: I HAVE FINISHED THE WORK which thou gavest me to do.” Again, the Bible critic will protest. “Now just hold on here a minute. Jesus hadn’t gone to the garden where He prayed with great drops of blood. He hadn’t yet been betrayed nor handed over to the Roman authorities. He certainly hadn’t yet died on the cross for our sins nor risen from the grave three days later. How can He then truthfully say that He had finished the work God gave Him to do? He must have been mistaken.”

Yet in the wisdom of God the thing was so sure that He refered to it as a present reality - a finished work - even though in human terms His redemptive sacrifice was not accomplished till some time after these words were spoken by our Saviour.

A third Biblical example that shows the principle of how God can refer to something as already existing (the book of the Lord) when from our point of view it doesn’t at all, is found in Ephesians 2:4-6. Here we read: “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

God speaks of this glorious redemption and new life from the dead as being a present reality which has already been accomplished - “quickened together with Christ, raised up and seated in the heavenly places” - Yet multiplied millions of us all over the world had not even been born yet, let alone had made some kind of a “decision for Christ”! Yet God refers to them as already done. We are seated together in the heavenly places.

In the same way, the King James Bible believer does not need to somehow trace all the way back in history to try to find any perfect and inerrant Bible that existed before God brought the finished product of the King James Bible on the scene in 1611. The Sovereign God of history sees the end from the beginning and He can refer to the true “book of the LORD” even when, from our point of view, it wasn’t yet complete nor perfected.

As the King James Bible translators themselves wrote in their Preface: “Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought, from the beginning, that we should need to make a new translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one; but TO MAKE A GOOD ONE BETTER, or OUT OF MANY GOOD ONES ONE PRINCIPAL GOOD ONE, NOT JUSTLY TO BE EXCEPTED AGAINST that hath been our endeavour, that our mark."

The King James Translators also wrote: "Nothing is begun and perfected at the same time, and the later thoughts are the thoughts to be the wiser: so if we build upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labors, do endeavor to make better which they left so good...if they were alive would thank us...the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished."

The King James Bible believer is the only one today who consistenly, historically and logically stands for the doctrinal truths that God has kept His promises to preserve His inspired words and that there really exists such a thing as a complete, inerrant and 100% true Holy Bible.

Remember, God says: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ...even God who calleth those things which be not as though they were.” (1 Cor. 1:19-20; Romans 4:17

For some additional thoughts on the subject Where was the word of God before 1611 and its purification process please see my article here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/before1611.html

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Matthew 11:15

Will Kinney

Very good article Bro. Kinney.

People need to understand that prior to the inventing of the printing press in the 1400s, having all 66 books of the Bible in one volume was not common. Most people before the printing press era had copies of the Word of God in scattered form. They might have the book of Psalms in one volume. Some of the Pauline epistles in another volume. The book of Revelation in one volume. The books of Moses in another volume. So on and so forth.

And so the perfect Word of God existed before 1611 in these different scattered copies. But for the modern version crowd to demand for the location of a perfect Bible consisting of all 66 books in one volume (such as what we have in the KJB) before 1611 is ignorant considering such was not the norm before the invention of the printing press. Before the printing press, it would take up to a year to be able to hand copy the entire 66 books of the Bible into one form. At that rate, it is hard to provide such volumes for mass distribution. So people had to settle for portions of the Bible in many different volumes.

God's perfect words have been around ever since the day He breathed them to His apostles and prophets and always will be. They existed in the many scattered copies that existed all over Asia Minor and eventually throughout Europe. That we have them all together in one volume today (the KJB) does not mean that God was obligated to provide His perfect words all in one volume in every generation (from the day they were given).

In other words, God didn't promise every generation to have all His preserved words in one volume from generation to generation. He simply promised that His WORDS would be preserved from generation to generation. And he fulfilled that promise through the tireless copying of those same words as well as the accurate translation of those words throughout history. The invention of the printing press simply enabled us to gather ALL of those preserved infallible words into one volume and that's what we have in the KJB. Blessed be His name for it!

De*32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Just because people did not instantly see a perfect Bible does not mean that God failed. In reality, God's work is in all of history, so we recognise that God did indeed bring things to a perfection in regards to having a perfect gathering of His words into one book, which was later and way down the line from the time of inspiration.

http://www.bibleprotector.com/trumpet.pdf

The reality is that we have a standard, that we have a perfect Bible, so we can point people to it.

I don't even find it worthy, to try to argue with people like that. They don't want to know anything, except the things in their little narrow mind, so I don't even fool with them. :)

Amen,brother Manny. Good thoughts.

¡Que Dios te bendiga!

Will K

God's Book of 100% truth
 

Hi Samuel. I often would rather not deal with them either. It can get very frustrating, but I do learn some things from them and they help keep me in the Book. For that I am grateful.

God bless,
Will K

Samuel, any discussion I have with them is through the internal evidence of the Scriptures apart from manuscript evidence. I'm not chopping those like Will who do approach it from that angle, I just don't see empiric knowledge gained through scientific methods that are arguable as being edifying. It's like trying to prove biologically the resurrection of Christ. My biologist vs your biologist, in manuscript evidence it's my scholars vs your scholars. What I want to see is their counter arguments through Scripture that God cannot preserve His words in a translation or copy. In that realm I think they are going to have to come early and pack their lunch because that throws it over into my faith vs your faith.

They don't have any faith in the preservation of God's word.

That's what needs to be exposed.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Hi Will, thanks for the article. I have learned a lot.
I have a question on the Bibles that were in other languages that followed the preserved line. Were all of them partial translations of the 66 books? Thanks for the help.

Iqualmente hermano Kinney.

Will, you actually answered your question with the last verse you posted... The KJV position does not "blow up," in fact, God BLOWS UP their position...

“I will DESTROY the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” (1 Cor. 1:19)

God's 100% true Holy Bible
 

Hi boaz. Could you be more specific? Are you talking about bibles that preceded the KJB like the Latin? The Latin had all the books plus the Apocrypha. Actually the Latin versions (there were several of them) were often much closer to the KJB than are versions like the nasb, niv, rsv, esv stuff.

There were foreign language versions before the KJB that were really quite good. The Spanish Reina Valera of 1602 and the 1549 Italian Diodati. Both of these had all the books of the Bible in them and generally followed the same texts as the KJB. Far, far closer to the true Bible than the modern versions.

Hope this helps some,

Will K

God's 100% true Holy Bible
 

Thank you for your comments. You and I can see that (by God's grace) but they sure don't.

Will K

Tim, for your own understanding and not for the MVers, you have to understand for the first time in history there was a safe bulwark and fortress against Roman Catholicism at the beginning of the 17th century: England and James I. No other time in history did a king or government make the honest attempt or have the desire to provide the Scriptures to the people.

These people, these "MVers" are adversaries, diabolos, devils. I'm not taking about "demon possession", I'm talking about the human heart in Jer. 17. They all parrot each other and I got tired of dealing with them. When they ask me where the word of God was before 1611, my response started to become, you're the expert, you're the Jesuit, you know what the "original manuscripts" say, and I don't, why don't you tell me? Now, the wrath of man worketh not what? The righteousness of God(James 1:20).

Manuscript evidence is no longer a point with me. If I don't have all the counsel of God in my hands, they better have the Scripture to prove it.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Grace and peace Tim

Tony

Bro Will, thank you for your post! Very helpful and confirming of our KJV 1611 Bible!

Jassy

Hi Jassy. You are most welcome. I'm glad it was of some benefit to you. Praise our God for His wonderful words of truth and grace. May He increase our faith to believe them.

Accepted in the Beloved,
Will K

Will, I have been following this over at FFF, man, you have a lot of patience. :)

I think you are doing a great job over there, keep up the good work. Those fellows are all "puffed up" with so-called knowledge, you are giving them a fit. I doubt you will get through to them, but who knows?, there may be a sincere heart there willing to accept the truth, though presently deceived. And it is great that someone who trusts in God's promise to preserve the scriptures stands up to these doubters, that others who are sincere may see your arguments.

And I agree with Tony about these doubters, the problem is not science, it is a lack of faith that is the root of their blindness.

God's perfect Book - the King James Bible
 

Hi brother. Thank you for the encouragement. It can be a bit frustrating to try to talk to the "no bible is inerrant" crowd, but I do learn things from them. What you find among them is a wide variety of opinions and very different beliefs about what and where the true words of God might be found, but not one of them can tell you with any certainty where to get a complete, inerrant and 100% true Holy Bible in any language.

Once a person has rejected the absolute Truth of the King James Bible and has made himself his own final authority (there is no other alternative) then it is very hard if not impossible for them to get out of this mindset.

The ONLY thing they all have in common is their unbelief that the King James Bible is the true and inerrant words of God. They don't have anything to replace it with except their own opinions, and they all disagree even with each other.

It's just like the verse says in Judges - "In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

Praise God for His mercy in revealing to us where and what His Book is - the King James Holy Bible.

Will K

Hi Will, thanks for answering my question. Yes, I was thinking of the foreign language translations before our KJB. I came across the names of the ones like the Old Latin and Syriac etc. and those you mentioned. Just want to get my information correct when I defend the preservation of the text and the KJB. Any other information you can offer is always much appreciated. Keep up the good work. Take care.
Tim

Samuel
 

Although I know what you are saying Samuel I have to say that if Will didn't bother responding to these folks people such as you & I wuldn't benefit from the wisdom that God has blessed Will with!

God bless

PaulB

Hi brother Paul. Thank you again for your words of encouragement. During the school year I don't have the time to engage in discussions with the Bible agnostics, but I thank God for the opportunity and the grace He gives me during summer break.

Right now I am in a very interesting discussion with a whole bunch of them over at this site. There has been tons of interest. Come join the fun if you like. There was initially one other King James Bible defender, but he has dropped out of the discussion for now. It starts here, but you can jump ahead a bit if you like and see what is happening. They almost deleted the thread, but then it kept going and it has been very interesting.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=60256

May God have mercy and open more eyes to the truth of His precious words.

Will K

Thanks for the invite Will - I'll check it out over the next day or so, but I don't think that I will be able to silence them like you can!
I tried that this morning at my NIV centred church and when I turned the screw a little I found myself with no one to talk to (they either went home or found someone else to talk to) - I think they may be seeing me as a potential problem!

God bless

PaulB

Hi brother. They just closed down the thread and locked it tight. They ended it with several forum members unloading their guns on me for being so ignorant and then closed it down.

Oh well, God knows. Hopefully it got some of them to thinking. If not for the grace and mercy of God we would be bible agnostics too.

Will K

Hi Will
 

Never mind - you did all you could in the time that you had. You never know, you may have fired a dart that will have puncture someone's baloon!
Truth doesn't always make an immediate impression but it does make a lasting one! It always creates one of two responses in the human heart;

1) Submission
2) Opposition

Either way you can know for sure that truth is doing its work. If it is submission, then truth has been conceived - but if it is opposition then it is being resisted. All the same it is still doing its work and you were the vessel through whom truth made itelf known.

God Bless

PaulB