Lordship salvation?
 

What is Lordship salvation? I understand that promoting the idea that Jesus being the Lord of your life as a requirement for salvation is wrong. But isn't also saying that "believe and you're saved" and then nothing more wrong. There should be fruit no?

Also, I want to ask something else. We all agree that repentance is a prerequisite to salvation, right? What is true repentance? Is it forsaking sin? Or is it merely realizing you're a sinner against God and that it is as the Bible says?

Re:" Lordship salvation?"
 

Aloha buzzoff,Our "Works" and/or "Fruit" have NOTHING to do with Salvation! It's the Lord Jesus Christ's WORKS & FRUIT that earned it for us.

Getting saved is quite simple really:

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Now there is a whole lot more to our Christian "walk" {"Fruit" & "Works"} with God AFTER we are saved. Salvation itself is quite simple (by design) really - We MUST BELIEVE, and anyone, (young or old; rich or poor; educated or not; bright or just average) ANYONE can get saved: they just have to BELIEVE the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - PLUS NOTHING & MINUS NOTHING!

Again, as I said in my thread in the other section, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I just want the truth. I want confidence that I hold the correct beliefs.

Aloha buzzoff,

No, we don't all "agree" that "repentance is a prerequisite to salvation" - that's part of what is known as "Lordship Salvation".

IF "repentance is a prerequisite to salvation" then we have ADDED to the "FINISHED" WORK that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on Calvary {Remember what He said in John 19:30: "It is FINISHED!}. We would have "required" something other than just BELIEF to get saved - but if there is "anything" that is required of us to get saved, other than BELIEF, we would have added WORKS (our WORKS) into the salvation matrix.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation is quite simple really - living the Christian life according to God's Holy word is "something else"! :)

Amen to the above, except that Biblical repentance for salvation is turning not from your sins, for that is impossible in the flesh. It is turing from the sin of unbelieve, to believing on Jesus Christ as your Saviour. It is a change of heart. So yes, you need only believe to be saved.

Hello "Buzz". Brother George is exactly right. Believing that Jesus Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures is sufficient and final (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). You should also know that being saved by believing in Jesus Christ will always result in bearing genuine fruit. You cannot be connected to the True Vine without yielding genuine fruit and you cannot abide in the Vine without experiencing pruning and purging by the Divine shears of the Husbandman (the Heavenly Father).

John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Dangerous and harmful doctrine occurs when we fail to understand there are varying amounts of fruit in the life of a believer. When we begin to place emphasis on "works" or "deeds" to substantiate our security in Christ, we will more than likely doubt our salvation and feel defeated in the Christian life because we do not measure up to the "fruitful" and "productive" Christian. We are all at various levels of fruit production and this is supported with scripture.

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

If I hold up a cluster of grapes with 30 grapes and another with only two, which branch is bearing fruit? Both of them are. Oh sure, we all admire and respect the "branch" covered in fruit, but the branch with two grapes on it is still alive in the Vine.

What is the solution for bearing fruit, more fruit, and much fruit? The branch (you) should simply abide in the True Vine (Christ) and yield the fruit He produces. Notice that in the life of a branch there is no toiling or striving to bring forth fruit. The branch is not ambitious, regimented, or even talented. It is helpless, yet it flourishes in the vine. The branch is alive and productive; yet resting.

Rest in, and know, Christ. Trust Him to produce the fruit He desires to bring forth in your life. Trust the care of our Heavenly Father, as the husbandman, to prune and purge your life so you can bear fruit, more fruit, and much fruit. Remember that without Christ, you can do nothing, but through Christ you can do all that He directs you to do.

Yes, if repentence meant to turn from sin, then God would be a sinner.

Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

There are many other verses that say God repented. So repentence does not mean to turn from sin, but it does mean to change one's mind or direction.

Look at these verses to understand what repent means:

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here the Lord tells these persons they must repent or perish. But look at the phrase before each.

Suppose ye these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

And,

think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

These particular people had the wrong attitude about themselves and others. They believed if an evil event happened to certain persons that this was proof that these people were wicked sinners whom God punished. They also believed themselves to be righteous in God's sight.

Jesus told them that they needed to repent or change the way they were thinking. They needed to realize that they also were sinners in danger of perishing.

You are not going to turn to Jesus unless you realize you are a lost sinner. Most people believe they are good and that God will accept them as they are. This is the wrong attitude or belief that people must repent of.

Amen Winman, great post!

Ok, but what about verses like John 15:2, "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit if taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."?

Buzzoff, the Bible is both simple to understand and extremely complex: while it's easy to understand doctrines and what God says in His word the Bible, the Bible is more than just what you see upon a cursory look.

The easiest way to clear up confusion is to understand that like a letter, the Bible is not entirely written TO you. You can gain an incredible amount of wisdom and knowledge from someone else's mail, but to follow the instructions written to someone else is not a good idea. You have to understand where you fit into the picture and read YOUR mail to know exactly what God wants from you.

There are three groups of people in the Bible: Jews, Gentiles and the Church (made up of Born-Again Christians). Genesis 1 through 12 deal with the Gentiles; from then on, God deals specifically with His people, the Jew, until Acts chapters 9 through about chapter 13, when the Lord begins dealing specifically with the Church. Your mail, the portions of Scripture most pertinent to YOU as a Blood-Bought Believer in Christ, is found in Romans through Philemon. This is where you compare everything else to, this is where you get your doctrine from, and this is the most important part of the Bible to keep you in the Truth of God's Word.

If you're confused as to what the Bible means in a certain spot, or why it says something that doesn't make sense compared to somewhere else, check the address (so to speak); usually you'll find you're reading someone else's mail, and while that's not a problem, just be careful that you don't apply to yourself the commands that God gave to someone else in another time period.

I looked up repent in Strong's and Vine's. One day, I will learn to listen to those more experienced than I. It means to change one's purpose, or one's mind. Is looking up words in those two resources a good thing to do?

It's not a bad thing to do, but you'll do much better by simply running a word search and seeing how the Bible uses that word or phrase in context. Sometimes there are different meanings based on how it's used, but you'll find that the Bible is truly its own best dictionary or commentary.

Buzz, perhaps we can begin here. What does John 15:2 mean to you? How do you apply it to your own life?

Hmm, you do realize you have brought up a very controversial topic, in bringing up John 15. I hope?.

It's only controversial because people don't Rightly Divide their Bible. When a person understands how the Bible applies to them, it's easily understood.

Agreed. God has used the 15th chapter of John in my life to teach the preeminence and sufficiency of Jesus Christ. To me, it's a very simple truth. He is the True Vine, I am the branch, without Him I can do absolutely nothing.

Samuel, perhaps you can enlighten us to the "very controversial topic" contained in John 15. I hope.
:confused:

You've got the point, I see no need to get into a great debate.

The problem is when people start applying the doctrines found within the Gospels that problems arise. Jesus preached a different gospel and taught different doctrine to a different group of people, and while we can get great Historical and Spiritual or Practical truths out of those books (ALL Scripture is for our learning), to take one's Doctrine from such a book is to confuse Scripture.

Like I said on my next to most recent blog entry (link in my signature), the Bible is all FOR you, but it's not all TO you. To try to apply the whole Bible TO you doctrinally is the most foolish thing a person could do with the Bible other than not believing it.

This is the part I was referring to, and the difference in opinion what becomes of this branch. :)

I must be a very foolish person. I actually believe that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). I believe The Sermon on the Mount is for me, as well as the Ten Commandments. I believe in "the Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14, that I am to fear God, keep His commandments, and have faith in Jesus.

What does it matter if we have the inspired, preserved Word of God if we can essentially negate so much of it as "somebody else's mail" ?? I have never understood this rationale....and you don't have to explain it to me as I have corresponded with a pastor who believes it for several months to no avail.

I realize I am in the minority in my view on this forum and do not wish to get into a debate about it. I just needed to voice my objection based on 2 Tim. 3:16.

Shalom,

Tandi

How many big boats have you built? How many times have you marched around Jericho? How many lambs have you sacrificed on an altar?

Everyone makes divisions in the Bible and everyone knows that some of what's in it isn't for them to do. The question is how do you divide what is and isn't for you.

This topic has been hashed out many times already on this forum, and as you say you've already been over it, so I write this for the benefit of any on-lookers and lurkers you may come across it.

Amen Tandi, I agree.

No need to debate Samuel. I realize we all differ on some scriptures occasionally. I am still one those Christians who believes Jesus when He said, “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35).

On a brief side note, two of my children were just at the “Wild’s Music Conference” near you. They try to go each year with a group of other young adults from our church. They really like your part of the country.

Concerning John 15:2, let’s try to rightly divide the word of truth in order to understand “taketh away”.

“Every branch in me....”

I guess we would all agree that the branch represents a born-again believer who is in Christ. Once we are in Christ we are eternally in Christ. We will always be in Christ. Our works or pious behavior did not put us in Christ in the first place so our works or bad behavior will not take us out of Christ. We are secure in the "know so" hope of eternal salvation because it had nothing to do with us in the first place. It's the mercy, grace, power, and sufficiency of God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away…”

Since we have clearly established in scripture the fact that once a sinner is born from above he can never be unborn. From this truth we understand that the words “taketh away” could not possibly mean that we are utterly removed from the True Vine.

In this “parable” Jesus uses the vineyard—the vine, the branch, and the husbandman to teach a life changing truth. The Disciples understood full well that there is a season in which the branch does not yield fruit. They understood there is a season when a branch is fruitless. It is important to know that the branch is still connected to the vine and has life in it with the potential of bearing fruit, more fruit, and even much fruit.

What does the husbandman do when the branch is barren and not producing fruit? He “taketh away” by pruning the fruitless branch all the way back to a small branch nub. The branch is still in the vine, but there is only about a quarter inch sticking out. This pruning is necessary for growth and fruit production. This pruning actually prepares the branch for growth and fruit production. The Disciples understood this.

In the same manner this is where growth begins for all true believers who stop bearing genuine Christ-like fruit. Back at the True Vine—Jesus Christ!

Is there anyone else out there on this Forum who would agree that there are times in our Christian life when God has severally, but lovingly, applied the Divine pruning shears and given a good pruning? Are there times in your life when God “takes away” the carnal activity or the sinful disease that prevents you from bearing fruit? “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Is it possible for believers to stop bearing good fruit? That’s really the question. As Christians, are we always in the growth process of yielding fruit? Be honest. We can examine our own life and answer that question. But the scripture gives us an example of a church body that was not continuing to bear good fruit.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Were the carnal church members at Corinth bearing good fruit? I don’t think so. The Apostle Paul said he could not speak to the believers at Corinth as unto spiritual. Does this imply they were not saved?

The Corinthian believers were identified as carnal (or fleshly). In other words, they were governed by mere human nature and not by the Holy Spirit. Their behavior was as if Christ had no part of them. They were seemingly no different than the “natural man” who wanders around aimlessly, in spiritual darkness, without Christ.

They walked as men. They did not walk with the mind of Christ. There was envying, strife, and divisions among them. The members argued with each other. They were not visibly yielding the fruit of love and kindness. Individuals demanded and clung to their own rights. They were jealous of one another. Contentious and divided, they lacked the fruit of a Spirit-filled life; a Christ directed life. Was the Church at Corinth continuing to bear good fruit? Obviously they were not.

Just as the husbandman prunes the vineyard and “takes away” fruitless branches, our Heavenly Father will prune us. God will use severe pruning in our lives in order to produce genuine fruit. His severe pruning can be seen in the strong reproofs of His word, the troublesome times of rigorous trials He orchestrates or allows and, if necessary, the painful times of His loving chastisement. But be assured, God develops a fruitful and productive life by pruning our sinful thoughts, words, or deeds. Severe pruning seems harsh, but to God’s glory, it is absolutely necessary for spiritual growth.

I believe the truths taught in John 15 are promises to all who are in Christ.

I said it's all FOR you. I also said it's not all TO you. Follow the instructions in the Old Testament and you'll go right to Hell. My pastor (and myself, incidentally) preaches many, many messages almost solely out of the Old Testament; however, we know that the Bible is more than just "they looked forward to the cross and we look back to the cross."

By the way, AMEN Bro. Forrest.

That is a good, and patented answer from a Calvinist viewpoint. But there are many who disagree, from complete loss of Salvation, to removing the believers witness. In this case the believer is saved, as a man escaping from a burning building. Naked with no rewards, but saved none the less.

That's why I made my comment, when I saw John 15 being brought up. But on KJV board, most will be Calvinists of a sort, so arguments would be few.

:confused:

Most of the participants here that I've seen comment on the subject reject Calvinism. There are quite a few threads on the topic full of arguments. :)

I know of no person here who believes anything even remotely resembling Calvinism. Perhaps a step back to reevaluate before you hit the "Submit Reply" button would be in order? :rolleyes:

Hellow Tandi,

I was like you when I came to fellowship with the brethren here. But I was very much so more resistant than you are in my previous views (I came from a group of Mennonite who are completely ignorant of Dispensationalism and due to their lack of understanding were very vocal against it). What I would like to do is offer you a suggestion that will make things easy for you. I hope you won't do what I did. I tried to bury my head in the sand and wouldn't even read anything on Dispensationalism but eventually I realized I didn't have any room to speak against something unless I'd read at least one book on the subject. Therefore I heeded brother Chette's advice and bought the book "One Book Rightly Divided" by Dr. Douglas D. Stauffer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967701619). I can now say that I learned more about the Bible in this one book than I have from any other book on the Scriptures. I assure you that you will be amazed to see things in Scripture that you never were able to piece together before. Here's a couple examples of teachings which various churches believe and are supported by verses in the Bible which are cleared up in his book:

* The NT begins immediately following Malachi (Matthew 1:1)
vs
The NT does not begin until after Christ's death (Hebrews 9:17)

* A person can lose the Holy Spirit through sin (1 Samuel 16:14, Psalm 51:11)
vs
The Holy Spirit seals the Christian and will never leave him (Ephesians 5:30)

* Water baptism bestows the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)
vs
Baptism identifies Christians with the death, burial and resurrection (Colossians 2:12)

The last example is the real kicker. You will be shewn that Scripture supports many things which cannot be understood unless you rightly divide, such as; do you recieve the Holy Spirit before or after baptism? Do you have to be baptised at all to recieve the Holy Spirit? Do you need to have hands laid upon you to recieve the Holy Ghost? Do you need to be baptised to recieve remission of your sins? Very serious questions, wouldn't you think?

There is so much more to be learned Tandi (like if there is only one gospel, what were the disciples preaching when Christ was still alive?), things you've likely never thought of before, and will surely blow your mind (in a very delightful way ^_^) when brought to your attention. I HIGHLY recommend this book.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Yeah, no doubt. There are only two folks here that I am aware of that believe in anything resembling reformed theology (so 2 out of 447...).

Oh, and I love sermons preached out of the OT ^_^.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

The good news that the Messiah, the Christ was here, and to repent and follow Him. This and all the other questons are pretty simple when compared with scripture.

They sure weren't preaching this:

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

How about:

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

There's no "death, burial and resurrection" in THAT gospel, Josh. Just FEAR GOD AND WORSHIP HIM. Kinda' unlike Christ's Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mk. 1:14) OR Paul's Gospel of Grace (Acts 20:24, 1 Tim. 1:11, etc.)

Yes, the Bible is easy to understand, but there is more in there than most people really understand. This is just the tiniest little hint of what lies inside the Book once you learn to Rightly Divide, as the Scriptures command us.

I heartily second Bro. Stephen's advice to get Bro. Stauffer's book; it opened my eyes to the basics of Dispensationalism in a very easy but factual way. You'll never regret buying that book.

Yeah but to bad there's nothing there about how to get saved. You won't get saved with that message Josh. I hope that isn't what you're teaching people.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Is along the lines of some of what Scofield presents in his study Bible? I can't get access to that page for some reason.

I'm not certain exactly what Scofield taught; from my recollection, he was at least close to the mark, but I would still try getting Stauffer's book for a direct study of this topic.

Samuel, there is no clear line between Calvinists and Arminians.

Some dispensational teachers have taken to calling themselves "Moderate Calvinists" (Chafer, Darby, Scofield, Newell, Stanford, Nyberg, Ryrie) in an effort to stay the debate between calvinism and arminianism, but even moderate calvinism (a misnomer) does not resemble either of them.

Moderate Calvinism denies the TULIP.

Men is totally depraved, but not inable to respond to God.
God's election is conditional and man is responsible for sin
God's atonement is unlimited in scope, but limited in application
God's grace is irresistable and can be rejected
Christ preserves the saints for eternity through His grace, not their perseverance.

It's nothing like Calvinism at all, because it essentially denies every point. My Pastor calls himself a Biblicist (which gets the calvies mad). The only thing it has in common with calvinism is Eternal Security, but even the Calvinists hate that term, preferring "Perserveranc of the Saints" which is a works based gospel (backloading the gospel with works - grace to be saved, works to stay - it's arminianism in disguise, the difference being Armi's say you lose your salvation, Calvies claim you never had it).

If I go by any kind of theology, it's dispensational teaching. I don't understand it all, but I can't ignore the verses which teach man's responsibility to respond to God, nor can I ignore the hundreds of promises to Israel, yet unfulfilled.

From a devotional perspective I would say John 15:1-7 gives us truths of discipleship for the church age believer, but from a doctrinal and dispensational perspective I think there is a possibility it applies to the nation of Israel. I'm not hard on this, but compare John 15:1-7 with Romans 11:17-25 and I think you will see what I mean. In the OT Israel is referred to as a vine (Psalm 80:8-19, Isaiah 5, Jeremiah 2:21, Hosea 10:1), but in John 15 Jesus says He is the true vine and “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away” (John 15:2) which was soon to happen to the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah. Paul tells us about branches being broken off (Romans 11:17) with the reason being; “because of unbelief they were broken off” (Romans 11:20) and it is clear from the context of Romans 9-11 He is referring to Israel. At the same time, as Jesus was speaking, the Gentiles were soon to be “grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17). As you read through Romans 9-11 (and passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4) you see that at a point in the future the true believers will be removed from the earth leaving the remaining apostate church which will not abide in Christ (… if God spared not the natural branches (Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee– Romans 11:21). As the tribulation ends with the return of Jesus, a remnant of the Jews will believe on Him as their Messiah and be grafted back in. Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles (which includes the apostate church) will be “cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6)

Amen brother, excellent. It's awesome how God crammed so much truth in there; from Bro. Forrest's exposition of the spiritual truths any Christian can find in this passage, to its doctrinal application in its proper time period, we can see the Grace of God that He does extend to every man.