Is God Fair?
 

Ezek. 18:
v20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:"

We are told that there will be a future seven year Great Tribulation, wherein Israel shall be punished for the sin of crucifying Christ. But, even if it happens today, that is many generations removed from the actual generation that rejected and crucified Christ. Isn't that contrary to Ezekiel 18:20?:confused:

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Who said the reason for the Tribulation was the rejection of Christ? That may play a part but there are other reasons for it.

Jerry:
I've never gotten a full handle on all the reasons for the trib, Jerry. I've only heard that Israel was the main reason. What are some of the others?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

The tribulation is not for rejecting Christ. The tribulation would have happened had they accepted Christ as thier King, following immediately by the Millenial Kingdom. It had to happen, because Daniel prophesied it would.

Which verse in Daniel prophesied the future tribulation?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

May be referring to this one:

Daniel 12:1:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

12:4 refers the time of this:

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased"

Debau:


That verse occurred to me, but Matthew 24:15 seems to pose a
problem in timing: Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) It seems that Jesus expected the people to read and understand Daniel back when He was on earth.
It means the book was opened, and that would establish the time of the end. The "many running to and fro" might be speaking of the evangelists taking the Gospel all over the world, and the "knowledge increased" could be the knowledge of God's Word increased by that preaching. Our present "scientific" knowledge, and people travelling by cars, trains, and planes, does not seem relevant to the Bible. If the smartest people in the world don't know God's Word, their knowledge hasn't increased one iota.

At that time Michael stood up, and there was a time of trouble. I think that he stood up for a reason.
Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven..." Michael cast the devil and his angels out of heaven. This next verse of Revelation 12 confirms the time:
Verse 10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." The word "NOW" indicates that it must have happened about the time Christ was crucified. When Jesus died on the cross, He went up to paradise to be with His Father, and it doesn't appear likely that the devil would be permitted to hang around where Christ was.

If that Great Tribulation took place in Judaea 2000 years ago, when all the Jews who knew Christ, and still rejected Him, were still alive, then that would fit the Scriptures, including Ezekiel 18:20. A future Tribulation
has no real meaning. Accordong to Revelation, here will be a time of trouble near the end of the world, but not the "seven year Great Tribulation" imagined by a few scholars 200 years ago.

Here's another item worth checking out. The 144000 Jews were the "first fruits" of the Church." They were redeemed 2000 years ago. How could they be some kind of "super evangelists" in a future "tribulation?"

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

No, the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the tribulation.

So, I guess according to your made up theology, the devil is no longer accusing the brethren today, and he must be roasting in the lake of fire now...

Jerry:
Rev.14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Jerry, I don't think that "unto God and to the Lamb" has anything to do with any tribulation.

All theology is made up, some from Scripture, some from imagination. I try to stick as close to Scripture as I can, because I have no imagination.
That devil thing is a long story. I have to to go now. Be back soon.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

If the 70th week has come and gone, as you say, then

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Why isn't there an end of sins, and everlasting righteousness, amongst the Jews, and in Israel, God's people, and his Holy City? Why is the most Holy not yet anointed as King and Priest of Israel? Why has the prophecy regarding Israel not yet completed?

Much confusion in Christianity has been the result of botched Bible translations. The verse below is not the least of them.

Luke 21:8 "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them."

It is clear from reading the whole chapter that the men He was speaking to were His faithful followers. In this verse Jesus Himself was speaking. He told His people, "Take heed that ye be not deceived." The question is, how were they going to be deceived? Popular Bible scholars say that these are going to be deceived by "false Christs," men who pretend to be Christ.
That is not true. Modern Bibles have modified the verse to make it seem that way, but they overlook the obviously poor logic of their teaching. Jesus said, "Many shall come in MY name," which means that they come in the name of Jesus. But then they supposedly say, "I am Christ," as though claiming to be Christ themselves. This is what some of the modified verses say. But to any thinking person that is an absurdity. How can a sane person come in the name of Jesus, then claim to be Christ himself. If he claimed to be both Jesus and Christ, that would make more sense, but the Bible simply says that many shall come in the name of Jesus. These deceivers are not claiming to be Christ themselves. They are in fact, acknowledging that Jesus is Christ. So, where's the deception? They are not false Christs, they are false teachers; they propagate false doctrine.

Jesus also cautioned His disciples: "and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them." Now, "them" is more than one, so if these were false Christs, the verse would be saying that Jesus' disciples were going to go chasing after every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes along in the name of Jesus, claiming to be Christ. That would be an indication that His disciples were morons. I truly believe that the Lord Jesus Christ would not choose such idiots to be His followers. After they had seen Him, walked with Him, and been taught by Him, I don't think they would have trouble recognizing a false Christ when they saw one. No one would need to remind them not to go after them.

But in the case of false teachers, that is a whole different story. Jesus said that there would be many such, and history surely bears this out. Since the time Jesus warned His people, there have been virtually millions of false teachers, and many millions who have gone after them. A good case in point: the false Bible scholars who perverted this verse to decieve multitudes into believing that it speaks of false Christs instead of false teachers. These same "Bible experts" pass up few opportunities to villify the Bible which translates the verse correctly.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

I must disagree with your interpretation, cpmac.

If the verse read, "...for many shall come in my name, saying that I am Christ;" then you would be correct.

Because the KJB does not use quotation marks, one must look at the other punctuation to understand when a quotation is being made. In this case, the comma after the word "saying" indicates that the next phrase is the quotation. Therefore, the false one will say, "I am Christ."

A number of persons have come on the scene claiming to be Christ after the fashion of Jesus (in His name). I believe it was Moon who said, "Jesus was the Christ of his day and I am the Christ today."

Brother Tim:

Good point, Brother Tim. However, your interpretation relies entirely on the existance of a comma. But with, or without the comma, the logic does not fit. If I read you correctly, this false Christ will say, "I am Christ." In this verse, Jesus was speaking, and He said, "Many shall come in my name..." Whose name is that? It is the name of Jesus. So this false Christ comes in the name of Jesus, yet absurdly, he states that he, not Jesus, is the Christ! I'm afraid that doesn't wash. As I have indicated, there may be a few morons to try that ploy, and maybe just as many idiots who may fall for it, but not many. And Jesus said there would be many. There haven't been many false Christs, relatively speaking, but there have been myriads of false teachers.

Not bad, Brother Tim, but "after the fashion of Jesus" is not coming in His name. And from what you say, Moon didn't come in the name of Jesus, He seems to have come in his own name, claiming to be Christ.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

No, actually if you read what Moon says, he claims that Jesus came to him and told him to finish the job that Jesus had started. This is in essence "coming in [His] name."

Every single mark in the Scriptures is important. Every jot and tittle counts.
Try this:

Die, not live!

Die not, live!

Different? Obviously!

Yes, the comma is important in that and every verse. Here it makes the difference in the true interpretation and a mistaken interpretation.

The context of Matthew 24 is dealing with events WITHIN the tribulation period. Yes, some of the events also occur to a lesser extent through this age, and increase the closer we get to the Lord's return (referring to the wars, earthquakes, famines, etc.) - but the context is referring to the seven year tribulation - not now.

Brother Tim:


"And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: GO YE NOT THEREFORE AFTER THEM."

You have to admit, Moon was a greater nitwit than the average, run-of-the-mill impersonator of Christ, of which the world has seen relatively few. But the facts of the verse are that Jesus said, "MANY shall come in my name..." Although "many" is not a precise number, I suspect that "many" is more than the few false Christ's we have heard of in our time. On the other hand, there has been no shortage of false teachers. "Many" would surely apply to them.

We know, from context verses, that Jesus was speaking to His disciples and followers. If we can believe that they knew Him by sight, then we cannot believe that He would have to remind them not to go after these decievers.

And, above all, the fact remains that the deceivers come in the name of Jesus. The Bible does not say that they come in the "essence" of His name. And, since they come in the name of Jesus,
they obviously expect their victims to know something about Jesus, in which case it would be pure folly to claim to be Christ.

Can I explain the presence of the comma, and the absence of "that?" No I can't. Neither do I understand anything at all of the Greek language, or the fine points of the early English. But while modern scholarly minds allow jots and tittles to dictate their interpretations, and ignore the main components of a passage (words), I believe that in most cases I can recognize nonsense when I see it.

The clear words of the passage reveal that these decievers are false teachers. They come in the name of Jesus, even confessing that He is the Christ, yet they deceive. The article of their deception is false doctrine. There have been many, many such deceivers, just as Jesus said there would be.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Jerry:

I assume that you mean the future seven year Great Tribulation. Can you give me the Scriptures that unmistakably point Matthew 24 to that future event?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

CPMAC:
The difference in correct interpretation and error can be as small as a comma. This has nothing to do with Greek or early English. We have what we need in the Book that God has given us, the King James Bible.

A good example of how the NKJV is wrong can be seen in the misunderstanding of the commas in the following verse, Exodus 12:40 (underlining mine):

The rules for English grammar, including Biblical English, identify a clause that is set apart by commas as being a further description of the previous thought. In this case, "who dwelt in Egypt" only adds information about the "children of Israel" which in turn is the object of the preposition "of". The clause is not describing the "sojourning" which is the subject. The sojourning was 430 years, but not all of it in Egypt. By leaving out the commas, the NKJV causes the 430 years to be understood to be the time that Israel was in Egypt.


As far as "many" false Christs:
How many have we had in just our lifetime? Jim Jones, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, an eastern Guru-head of "Divine Light" (forgot name) just to name a few that I can think of at the moment. Multiply that by the number of generations past. I would speculate that it would approach "many".

Brother Tim:

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be more conscious of punctuation marks from here on.
But here's a question for you: If the time was drawing near 2000 years ago, do you think any of that was primarily meant for our time?

By the way, ditto on the KJV.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

My first thoughts about the phrase is that the false Christs would begin showing up soon after His ascension. They then have continued to show up throughout history.

P.S. I am pre-mil but not pre-trib. I don't quite know what box I would best fit in. Probably not any right now. I see many things attributed to the "great" tribulation that were fulfilled in history, such as a number of statements made in Matt 24 happening in 70 A.D. But there are missing pieces that I have not settled. I spend most of my energy on the text issue, so I'll leave the future up to those who are smart enough to figure it all out. God is sovereign and my lack of knowledge about the future is not going to affect its outcome. I'm just letting you know a little about where I am in this.

The primary events of Matthew 24 have not happened yet. The first part of the passage describe general events - of which there certainly have been applications during the church age (plagues, earthquakes, wars, etc.) - though I believe the context is events within that seven year period. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21, you will see that Luke actually describes what would happen during the destruction of Jerusalem, with the prophecy that the nation of Israel would be scattered throughout the world; however, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are different in what they cover (what happened in 70 AD is similar in some ways to what will happen during the Tribulation, but those chapters describe what will happen during the reign and destruction under the Antichrist).

For example:

70 AD - Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:12 But before all these (describing the other events at the end of the church age), they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:20-24 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Tribulation - Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

From the contexts of these chapters, it is obvious Luke 21 deals with the first question which was fulfilled in AD 70, and Mark 13 and Matthew 24 deal with the other two.

Matthew 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is describing events that will only ever happen ONCE to the world - the great tribulation, and this passage indicates it will be Christ's return that will end this time of persecution and destruction. THAT hasn't happened yet - though Luke 21 has (ie. the dispersal of the Jews throughout the world and the time of the Gentiles, which we are still in).

Jerry:

Apparently we agree that Luke 21 happened near to AD70. Those were the days of vengeance. So, now, how would you interpret thise part of Luke 21:22: "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled?"

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

All the things that Jesus prophesied about the nation of Israel rejecting Him and having their city and temple destroyed by the Romans was fulfilled. Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

These are certainly some of the prophecies:

Luke 19:41-44 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Matthew 23:34-39 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The underlined part has already happened - the rest has not yet occurred.

Jerry:

I think there might be a typo here. I'm not able to figure out what you are saying.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Just before the AD70 judgment(the Great Tribulation) began, the first tribulation ended. That first tribulation was the "Baptism of Fire," the time of testing of His followers, to see who would fall away from faith in Him, and revert back to their old ways, usually back to the sacrificial system. Those who didn't fall away, who endured to the end, were saved. Sorry to disappoint dispensationalists, but the Jews (and possibly some Gentiles) were raptured at that time. Those who were alive did not precede the ones who were dead. They all went up to meet the Lord in the air, to be ever with Him. Paul was one of those who were raptured. Also, at about that time, Daniel was fulfilled, and athe Old Testament Jews were taken to heaven. At the present time, and throughout the Church Age - the "Millennium" - the twelve Apostles are ruling the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven, in the New Jerusalem. The wicked, and the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ ended up in the Roman holocaust, or were shipped off as captives to other nations.
Romans 11:32 tells us that all Israelites had been concluded in unbelief, the same as Gentiles so, technically and spiritually speaking, there are no "Jews" today. There are Semites, descendants of Israelites, but "Jew" is a religious designation, and God did away with that prior to AD70. We Christians should be very careful about encouraging "pseudo-Jews" to persist in their folly, rather than teaching them the truth of the Bible.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Sorry, I missed a word: saying.

Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't saying everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

How do you figure that, Jerry?

cpmac

There are many prophecies about Christ's second coming - and some of them deal with Israel and Jerusalem; therefore they certainly are not all fulfilled yet. Though everything Jesus prophesied would happen to that generation of people that rejected Him has happened.

Jerry:
The Great Tribulation was prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24. But many say that it is yet future. To which generation was that supposed to happen? What do you say?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

There is never any mention of a “Second Coming” in the Bible. The nearest to a “Second Coming” is Hebrews 9:28:
“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
This was directed to the Jews of the beginning Church era, those Jews who were going through the first tribulation, the “Baptism of Fire. Christ would appear the second time to them that look for Him. That was an exclusive group of Jews, the believers — the remnant of Paul’s day, who remained faithful to Christ in spite of all the wiles of the devil — they endured to the end.

Christ appeared only to those who looked for Him. It would be a time of salvation for those Jews who overcame, who endured to the end. The first time He came, He bore the sins of many. The next time He came, there would be no sin to bear, only salvation for the remnant.

Right after Jesus pronounced doom upon the nation of the Israel, the “house of the Jews,”
Matt. 23:38 “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
He said,
Matt. 23:39 “For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

He wasn’t speaking to us; He was giving those people of that day and time an ultimatum: “If you want to see me when I come back, then believe on me, believe who I am. When He came that second time, He appeared only to them who looked for Him. That was about the year of AD70.

The words of Jesus in Luke 21:22 are clear: All things that are written shall be fulfilled. He didn’t qualify the things that were written. ALL things means ALL things. Many promises weren’t fulfilled to the Jews — to their liking. But they were fulfilled, one way or another, because the covenants were NOT unconditional.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

The context is pretty clear that it will be the last generation before Christ's return - the generation of Israel that will see His return. Also, in the context, it refers to Israel coming together as a nation - through the figure of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:29-34 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is going to return, and THEN REIGN FROM JERUSALEM FOR 1000 YEARS. No matter your theology - it is pretty obvious that Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem yet.

Jerry:
Give me one example anywhere in the Bible where "this generation" is some future generation, and not the generation being addressed.

I'm not too familiar with the Bible. Where does it say that?


cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Jerry: is this past or future?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Question: When was (or will be) Satan cast out of heaven?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Jesus' 1000 year reign from Jerusalem is prophesied in Revelation 20 - and the context is after the Tribulation and the battle of Armageddon. There are other passages that speak of the Messiah ruling.

Romans 11:26 is referring to the return of Christ, when all Israel shall see the Messiah face to face and be saved. That verse refers to it as a mystery. Revelation 10 (which I believe occurs near the end of the Tribulation period) speaks of that mystery being ended.

Satan already fell from Heaven - but Revelation 12 teaches he has yet to be cast out of Heaven. He still has access to accuse the brethren before the Lord - until the midpoint of the Tribulation period when he is cast out.

First, the "thousand years" are not necessarily 1000 years but an unknown multiple
of 1000. In Strong's Concordance, the Greek word is "Chilioi; plur. of uncert. affin;"
meaning it could be a multiple of 1000, like 2000, or 3000, etc. The thousand years
is undoubtedly the length of time the Church is to be on earth, because just afterward
Satan is loosed out of the bottomless pit, and released for a short time to cause chaos
upon the earth. Since the Bible is seldom precise, and we are still near to the
2000 year mark, we could be in the last years of the Church Age, the world as we
know it. However, there are no other positive indications, so we cannot know.

Dispensational Bible scholars, of course, would argue that "when God says 1000, He
means 1000, and because it it repeated six times in this chapter, the one thousand
years is definitely a literal 1000 years. But what they never mention in this
argument is Revelation 2:10

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days..."

Would you like to see how some of the futuristic scholars interpret the "ten days?"
The late Dr. J. Vernon McGee writes: "There were ten intense persecutions by ten
Roman Emperors..." Ht then lists ten Roman Emperoros, "Nero, Domitian, Trajan,"
etcetera, and gives the number of years that each ruled, which totaled up to
about 71 years. Read it in (Thru the Bible, vol. 5, page 906) In chapter 20, a
"thousand years" must equal a literal 1000 years, but in this chapter, 10 days
could be as long as 71 years! How's that for literal interpretation?

If one must be a literal 1000 years, then the other must be a literal 10 days,
we simply can't choose to be literal only when it suits our agenda. The best we
can surmise is that one represents a long period of time, the other represents
a short period of time.

The theory that Revelation 20 happens after the Tribulation is conjecture of
the wildest sort, because that future seven year Tribulation is not mentioned
in Scripture. It is fabricated from several unrelated, and badly misinterpreted,
Scripture verses. That it happened after the Tribulation is true, but that
tribluation happened in the past, ending about AD70. It was the Tribulation
spoken of by Jesus on Matthew 24. God used Satan as the Great Deceiver of nations
to gather all nations (the nations which made up the Roman Empire) together
to judge the wicked unbelievers of Israel. Revelation 20 began just after that:

V1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand." There being no such thing as a literal "bottomless
pit," and no literal chain can hold a spirit being like the devil, these are
obviously symbolic. V2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which
is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, V3 And cast him into the
bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive
the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that
he must be loosed a little season."

That tells the present-time story of the devil. He is not able to decieve the
nations any more until the end of the Church Age. That doesn't mean he can't
cause trouble for Christians in the meantime.

Andwhile Satan is incarcerated, the following is going on:

V4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
V5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection.

What is the "first resurrection?" All of the above!

Verse 4 and 5 speak of three separate groups of people.

The first group:
John saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given unto them.

The second group:
John saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The third group:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

The first group, I would suggest, is the Church. Revelation 5:10 "And hast made
us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

The second group is obviously in heaven. John only saw the "souls" of them. They
reign in heaven with Jesus Christ. These, I am sure, survived the first tribulation,
the Baptism of Fire, which ended just before the great tribulation began. The beast
was the devil, in the form of the Roman Empire.

Just who the third group, the "rest of the dead" are is still a bit of a mystery
to me. Which people are they the rest of? I would guess that they are the deceased
from the first group, the Church. Being part of the Christian Church, they reign
on earth, pass on, and are replaced by other Christian. This goes on throughout
the "thousand years."

Anyway, they are dead, and will remain dead throughout the Church Age. I think
that they will be part of the general resurrection at the end of time.
V6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the
second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and
shall reign with him a thousand years." The "first resurrection" is, without a
doubt, acceptance of salvation in Christ. It is a spiritual resurrection. Every
Gentile is born dead in sin, and brought to life by Christ.




Rom. 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall
come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Rom. 11:27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The dispensational interpretation of this passage is a cataclysmic disaster. It
leaves millions hanging in mid-air, wondering just who is "all Israel." As the
theory is taught, there is no intelligent answer. "All Israel" means All Israel.
Futurists refer to the present day Israel as "Israel." In the future, there will
be a "remnant" of Israel, so they say. But today, and ever since the house of
David, meaning the nation of Israel, has been desolated, the vast majority of
"Israelites" have been in unbelief. Can they somehow be saved? One might hope
so, but I see nothing like that written in Scripture. Some scholars, apparently
struggling with this same problem, have concluded that God has a different
covenant with Jews, and they are saved without the need to believe in Christ.
This is the kind of god-awful heresy futurism has spawned. The Bible plainly
states that "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but
he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also" (1John 2:23). The Bible
was written by the Jews, to the Jews, and for the Jews. So that verse applies
to the Jews as well as the Gentiles. Yet, many scholars prefer to ignore it,
rather than admit a contradiction in their doctrine.

Paul says that "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn
away ungodliness from Jacob:" Dispensationalists, those "literal interpreters,"
are looking for this at Christ's Second Coming. That is another ungodly doctrine,
and heretical to the bone! They all fail (deliberately, I think) to see that Paul says,
"...as it is written..." So he's quoting an Old Testament prophet, who wrote that
several hunbdred years before the Deliverer came out of Sion. But fools and heretics
would give Christ no credit for accomplishing on the cross exactly what He came to do,
bring salvation and righteousness to Israel. Just because Israel, for the most part,
did not accept it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. To say that Jesus must come back
to save Israel is saying that He failed the first time to take away their sins.

If the dispensational teaching is true, and all Isreal, even unbelieving Israel,
is saved when Christ returns, then logically, everyone who ever died in sin will
be saved in the future. So, be prepared to move over and make room for Hitler,
Stalin, and Osama Bin Laden --- if dispensational teaching is true.




According to Scofield, Satan fell from heaven even before the six days of Creation,
which is quite a trick, because the Bible says he was created on a certain day.
But Scofield was an evolutionist. If Satan fell from heaven, but is yet to be
cast out of heaven, who let him in that he has to be kicked out again? It doesn't
make sense.

Revelation indeed speaks of Satan being cast out of heaven, but by what magic has
any dispensationalist been able to establish that time as the "mid-point" of the
Tribulation? If we stay away from future-minded Bible expositors, and stick with
the Bible, we can find out when Satan was cast out of heaven, when the Great
Tribulation started, when Old Testament Israel was taken into heaven, and when New
Testament Israel was raptured; sort of killing four birds with one shotgun blast,
as it were.

DANIEL 12:
V1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for
the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never
was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people
shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

According to Dispensationalists, the Tribulation begins, and Michael stands up,
but he doesn't do anything. I suppose he stands up to get a better view of the
Antichrist whipping the tar out of the children of Daniel's people, the first
century Jews.

Not quite. Michael stands up for a definite reason, as we shall see. And it was
at this time that all the Jews who were found written in the book, were delivered.
And at that same time all Old Testament Israelites were resurrected, both good
and bad:

V2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."



One of the clues as to the timing is given in this verse:
V4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the
time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
The book of Daniel was to be sealed until the time of the end. If we say that
Christ came to earth about the time of the end, we won't be far off. He quoted
from the book of Daniel in Matthew 24, and meant all who heard to understand,
so the book of Daniel was unsealed at that time.

Revelation 12 clinches the time:

V7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,"
V8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
V9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and
his angels were cast out with him."
Now we know why Michael stood up.

Here is the clincher:
V10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the
accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God
day and night."

"Now is come salvation..." This obviously happened after the cross, and actually
just after the first Tribulation. The kingdom of God was set up, and Christ received
all the power in the universe (Romans 1:4).

That "loud voice" must have come from the Jews in heaven. They talked about the
"accuser of our brethren." He would no longer have access into heaven to accuse
the Jews.

So, Satan is not accusing anyone today, at least not before the heavenly throne.
He's been in the bottonless pit for hearly 2000 years now.

According to the Bible, and not to dispensational teaching...

There is no future "seven year Tribulation."
All Old Testament Jews are in heaven, the twelve tribes are ruled by Jesus Christ
and His disciples.
All the believing New Testament Jews have been raptured into heaven.
Salvation came to all of Israel. It was free for the taking. Some didn't take it.
The kingdom of God was set up.
Satan was cast out of heaven for the first and last time.
After AD70, there is no future for Israel.
In fact, there is no Israel, as far as Scripture is concerned.
All "Jews" today are psuedo-Jews.

Wow - there is no arguing or debating with someone who refuses to take the Bible literally and at face value. Whatever anyone says and shows from the Bible on the subject, you will explain away again. These are my last words in this debate with you - as it is pointless. I will gladly debate with someone who cares about God's Word and is willing to debate what it actually states - not symbolizing it and explaining it away.

Ditto on the "wow".

I guess my question is: If Jesus is reigning right now, why is he doing such a horrible job?

That is the point of the 1000 reign, correct? Or did you not get that when you read verses like Zecariah 14:9, Luke 1:32,33 and Jer 3:17, etc. Etc. ETC? and Guess What - Those aren't the only ones.