Does Old Testament apply to Christians?
 

Are Christians allowed to use OT for for the Christian doctrines?

For example, many people bring up David as a role model for Christians. These people say, "Look at David, we need to be as close to David as possible, and we need to follow all of the laws that David followed." Since David was so close to God, we need to follow everything that he followed.

While other Christians say that we do not need to follow David, because the things that David said and did were of the Old Testament. These people say, " The teaching of David do not apply to the Christians." These people bring up that David had more than one wife, and that current Christians need to have only one wife.


Which group of people do I need to listen to?

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?
 

No,No,NO

The Old Testament is for our understanding on how God has worked in the past.
There is no application for the New Testament Christian doctrinally in the O.T.

I am not saying that a Christian has no need to read or study the O.T. but doctrinally there is nothing for us today.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The God of the Old Testament is still the God of the New Testament, and that never changed. However, we now have the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from sin. We're not under the law, because Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. However, Jesus himself said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." We don't keep them because it's LAW! We keep them because we love Jesus Christ.

And the argument about David's wives is a moot point. It's in the Word because it happened, not because God condoned multiple wives. It's a record of things God approved, as well as disapproved. As the Lord said,

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

That verse goes back behind David, to when God gave us the only gift that came out of Eden, and still continues to this day: marriage.

Old Testament is based on following the law, and faith in God.
New Testament is based on the shed blood of Christ, and Him ressurected in glory, and now sitting as our intercessor at the right hand of God. I believe it was Paul that says there was nothing wrong with the law. The law is perfect. The problem is with man. We don't have what it takes to keep the law.

Psalm 19:7-8
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Praise Him for His grace and mercy, to deliver us from the bondage of sin, as well as the bondage of the law!

Only if the Old Testament agrees with Apostle Paul's teaching on a given subject

All the old testament agrees with Paul's teaching. Dude what are you thinking.

You know, Jesus is the same, God does not change.

When one disregards parts of the Bible they are diminshing from it, the same as those who add and subtract from it.

Man lives by every word of God.

The Bible says in 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:".

Numbers 19:11

"He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days."

Leviticus 11:4
"Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you."

So, we should also follow this.

It's actually Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today, and forever; but that's not important

What I wanted to say, is that There is the old Testament and there is the New testament. Testament means agreement. Even thought God is the same, he made different agreements with the people. In the OT, people lived by the Old agreement laws. In the NT, people live by the new agreement.

For example, David had multiple wives, and God aproved it by the OT. Not only did God aprove David's multiple wives, but God also gave David a high rank. David would sit at the right hand of Jesus in Heaven.

In the NT, I understand that people can have only one wife and as I understand, by the NT having more than one wife before God is not right.

1 Corinthians 7:2 "...let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."


Even though God is the same, he made different requirements for people in the OT, and different agreement. We should only follow the things of the OT that overlap with the NT

I think that Reply #2, which was posted by Swordsman and Reply #4 by chette777 are the best answers.

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?
 

AMEN !!

From Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible:

The entire Bible applies to Christians...all 66 books from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?
 

No, not doctrinally. Absolutely, positively, impossible, in no way shape manner or form.

Listen to the Lord Jesus Christ, by the Spirit, through the written Word.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8).

You can fully trust Him!

If you want but you are not obligated too, I wouldn't eat a camel anyway, unclean animals are not all that healthy to eat anyway, also. But if you read the bible all the way through you would see the Lord had Peter eating swine.
I can't believe you are that ignorant anyway so what is your real point, because you are kind of acting weird?
Old Testament is an ensample for all of us surly you know that, don't you?

What? Don't you mean that, the other way around?

Doctrinally all the OT does not agree with Paul.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:17)

When Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy, all they had was the Old Testament...therefore the Old Testament does apply to Christians. However, church doctrine does not come from the Old Testament. This does not mean we simply throw out the Old Testament and say it doesn't apply to Christians today. There are many, many precious promises in the Old Testament which are applicable to Christians today.

WOW! we had a black out for about 30 minutes here.

Scott, the Old Testament atonement does not agree with Paul's teaching on atonement.

so the question is what are you thinking?

A dude by the way is a western slang meaning a novice or new comer. I am not new to the word of God by any stretch of the word.

Your lack of seeing the OT and Paul's teaching does show your novice approach to scriptures as a whole when you make statements like "All the old testament agrees with Paul's teaching".

or are you just being a bit trite because I don't care to much for Alex Jones? I do watch some of his stuff and I do read his web site and listen to some of his radio shows. I just think he is a bit to much to cause people not to look towards Jesus coming but to what the world is coming too.

you would be surprised to know that Bill O'riely admits there is more than meets the eye when it comes to 9/11. he is quite a watch dog for truth in government and amongst his peers. www.americasnewstoday.com is alos a very conservative and truth propogating news source.

as much as you want to believe that ALL media is controled then who is to say Alex Jones is not controlled by them to just to promote the extreme views to cause division and strife in our nation? Alex Jones could be more involved in a conspiracy to deceive the people just as easily as any other media personell. remember that.

If all the Old Testament didn't agree with Paul doctrinally, why did he quote it? Why did Jesus quote the Old Testament? The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. We are not living under the Old Testament, but that does not mean we are to discard it, for it is the foundation from which the New Testament was written.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44-45)

What "Scriptures" were those disciples to understand? It could not have been the New Testament, because it was not written yet. It was the Old Testament "Scriptures". The Old Testament points us to Christ.

quoting the OT is no proof that they agreed on Doctrines for the church Age.

Luke is found in a different dispensation than the church Age

Rightly divide the word of truth

Are you saying that we should all discard the Old Testament?

Not at all.

Paul said the Old Testament is for admonishment and learning.

it is just that there is very little church doctrine found in them. when a certain Doctrine in the Old Testament agrees with Paul's Doctrine in the NT then we have something that is apllicable doctrinally for the church today.

For example the Psalmist said let us worship the Lord in Dance. But Paul does not speak on the issue of Dance. Therefore it is not a doctrine for the church today. now the issue is left to the Pastor and and he must decide if dancing distracts others from worshipping Jesus during the Sunday service. it it does then it should not be practiced. because we are to consider others better than self.

Wow, while you try to put me down, and build yourself up I jsut don't know if there is any use, I have tried with you and I think I have done all I can do, especially bibilcally if you think the old testament does not agree with Paul, or if you think Paul disagree with the Old testament you are in a different belief than I.

This is elementary the Old Testament total and completely agrees with all of the New Testament there is not one thing that is not link to each other that is how it work.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
So what scriptures do you think this verse was talking about?

Oh how about this one. (see below)
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And this one, oh never mind if you don't get it by now you are just not receiving.

You will see some day but I fear it will be to late to help anyone, I fell sorry for you and so many other on this site and in the church. They will go along in their false paradigm design to make you think and believe a certain way and they will end up not help anyone, but rather be a hindrance to the love of God.

But Praises be to God and to his Christ, Jesus of Nazareth the Lord of lords and King of kings our high tower from the enemy.

Sorry for saying dude to you it was meant in love, but if I ever talk to you I won't uses it again with you, not because I don't still love rather so as not to offend you.

Again I fell sorry for you.

YGG YOU GO GIRL

Scott,

Though there is harmony of the OT and NT of which I have never said there wasn't. the point was what was for Christians today. that is a doctrinal issue of what is applicable for practical daily obediance to the word of God. Paul did not teach a Sabbath day observance but the OT does. just another place where Paul and the OT don't agree doctrinally. wouldn't you agree?

i stated that as long as the OT teaching that is applicable to a christian is in agreement with the teaching of Paul's teaching on any given subject it is for the christian today as applicable life practice.

We, unlike the Thessonicans, have a completed Bible whereby we can compare scripture with scripture. I understand your agruement. but we are not dicussing Thessolonicans here were are talkiing about Christian's who today have a completed Bible.

As far a Paul's teaching to Timothy he is not saying ALL Scripture is Doctrinally applicable to a Christian's today. you are reading that into the verse. some of it is for correction and instruction and admonishment.

the discussion I took on was for Doctrinal application for the believer TODAY not in AD50 or so. but 2008

I am much older than you being 50 this next year. you would do well to learn 1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

so many try to cover their sinful words and deeds by saying they are "in Love". This is not the first time you have used the "in Love" statement with me. I had a man once who deceived and lied to my face and then write me later saying all he had done was "in love". so those words carry very little wieght with me.

as far as exalting myself above you. surely I made no attempt to do so. I only questioned your motives for arguing using a statement that was not 100% correct.

Let us stop this behavior now and move on. these will be my last words to you on this subject.

Do What Jesus Did!
 

<snipped for brevity>

To the Thread Question/Title. Yes,Yes,Yes, {Yea Verily!}

The letters of your screen name ask a question. What would Jesus do? He would NOT take a meat clever to the Word of God and hack and cut. What Jesus WOULD do is/was quote and refer constantly to the Written Word as we now have it from Genesis to Malachi!

Please turn to Matthew 5:17,18 and read those verses. Also look up a verse that has the words "millstone" and "sea" in it...think on that passage before adopting the "meat clever" hack and cut theology.

The Lord God Himself gave us those 10 Commandments from Mt. Sinai,,,written into the stone tablets with HIS finger! Not David or anyone else. The Creator of the Universe took time to communicate to us humans and NO one has the right to tell you (or anyone) to disregard HIS words!

Check out this link for some answers to your questions (with scripture proofs).

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html Read chapter 1 and chapter 19. {The Holy Scriptures and The Law of God.}

Don't bother with the above link. You'll just be wasting your time. Baptist Confession of Faith is not baptist at all. It's simply reformated doctrine and amillennialism.

(It is my observation that calvinists MUST post something about calvinism in every post).

EDIT: To PB, wwjd.usa is not a dispensationalist like the rest of us that supposedly hacks the word up and "wrongly divides". He is just a heretic that believes you can lose your salvation, and become sinlessly perfect.

Scott,

Your reply to brother Chette displays a certain amount of animosity and "chutzpah" that bothers me (I have seen it displayed by you quite often of late).

Just because you either cannot or will not "rightly divide the word of God", doesn't give you the right to malign a brother in Christ who is trying to inform you of a TRUTH!

The whole of the Bible is FOR us - BUT the whole of the Bible is not directed AT us. We are NOT under the Mosaic law (no matter what you think). We are not required to keep the Law (The Lord Jesus Christ KEPT IT FOR US!)

I have remained silent for some time about your hijinks (thinking at the beginning that you were sincere :confused:). Since Steve's near departure (mostly because of your remarks directed at him), I no longer will hold my tongue.:(

For a man with Sooo many, many questions - you sure seem to already have ALL the answers! :confused:

Why is that? Are you trying to "bait" us into an argument or a debate? If you haven't noticed - I stopped trying to deal with you for several weeks now (NO PROFIT! :(). You are not a sincere person, and as such I decided not to have anything to do with you.

You use the Scriptures just exactly like a Cultist, and you should consider (since you reportedly came out of a Cult - Mormonism), that perhaps you may still have some "baggage" that you "picked up" while you were in Mormonism.

Brother Chette is NOT a "DUDE"! :mad: He is a faithful Christian missionary living in one of the most dangerous parts of the Philippines (Palawan - bordering on the area where the murderous Muslims live). Brother Chette (not DUDE!) puts his life on the line every day of the week (52 weeks a year).

Brother Chette (not DUDE!) has started three Christian churches in the Philippines. In one day he probably has to deal with more serious problems (poverty, sickness, deprivation, and the burden of pastoring a church) than you have to deal with in a year. For you to flippantly malign him does not reflect well on your "Christian" character or witness!:mad:

Brother Chette (not DUDE!) is putting his life (and his family's) on the line for the Lord Jesus Christ - what are you doing? Hmmm? Brother Chette (not DUDE!) is trying to SERVE the Lord Jesus Christ as best he can and you do him a disservice with your attitude (but then again - he's NOT the first one on this Forum that you have treated that way). [Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.]

As a "Christian" you have a lot to learn, but sad to say you haven't learned much from us. You have a serious problem (which we on this Forum cannot "fix") in that your Posts question the meaning of Scripture and cast doubt on its veracity. You should seriously consider "WHO" it is (in the Scriptures) that is an "ACE" at doing the same!:mad:

Like I've said before - Once I find that a person is an insincere Sophist, I no longer will deal with him (or her). I refuse to "engage" with kooks, Sophists, heretics, and malicious people. You can take your pick as to where you fit in that list!

I refuse to waste my time trying to convince someone, who already "thinks" that he has ALL of the answers! [Proverbs 16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.]

Aloha-Adios-Adieu-Sayanora-Chow or whatever.

George,


You post is good advice for all of us. Sadly I fell into the " war debate " with WWJD and it was a total waste of time other than Luck reminding of the Bible passages I was looking for but had forgotten where they were. Some folks on here very near cult beliefs. Like sinless perfection and other such unsound doctrines. It is best to let most of these post pass by with out reply, however once you reply I feel as if you must carry it to the end and finish what you have started. It is best not to start in the first place. If nobody replies to crazy post maybe the post will die a fast death. I myself have avoided this topic for this reason wanting this worthless post to die. We can not help what others post, but we can help how and what we reply if we reply. Maybe we just need to stop the replies and that may be the best thing to do.


Atlas

Wise counsel for us all, thank you George. The ratio between ears and mouth is still 2:1, so listening should take that same ratio to speaking, that also helps in wisdom growth.

What I'm trying to say, is that GOd is the same, but the testaments are different.

For example, in the OT, GOD promoted swearing

Deuteronomy 6:13
Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

In the NT, GOd forbids swearing

Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:


Yet, both in the NT and OT GOd is the same.

in the OT GOd promoted swearing (Deuteronomy 6:13) in the NT God forbids swearing (Matthew 5:34).... So which verse should I obey? :confused:

I think that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 refers to the scripture of the New Covenant, or the NEW Testament.

Hey wwjd.usa! Here you are!

I answered the questions you asked me, here:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515

Are you going to answer my questions any time soon? I'd appreciate it! :)

The way I understand it, is that The OT does not apply to Christians. However Christians need to use the OT for examples.

For ex. The Israelites sinned before GOd, and God punished the Israelites.

Even though the OT laws don't apply to us, we should use this example and says to ourselves, "God punished people for sinning in the OT, and therefore God will punish us if we sin in the NT"

That fine, I will be 56 in January in case that matters, I do believe the gospel is found in the OT herein we should not think it would disagree with the scripture written by Paul. Certainly Jesus has fulfilled the law and we are not under the law but again every word of the OT is still appiclable and not to be disregard in anyway.
I may state that I have never rebuked anyone let alone you.
I may disagree with you on several items, but does not disavow my love in Christ for you and your work in the ministery.
Keep up the good fight, and God Bless you.

Jesus, Paul and other had to get the doctrines somewhere. They picked out and kept the good doctrines, while leaving the bad doctrines behind. We ourselves can not alter the doctrines of Jesus and disciples. If we do alter the doctrines, then we can end up in Hell.

Jesus and disciples have stated which doctrines are good. The doctrines that they have not stated, we should not follow.

Jesus did fulfil the OT, and therefore we do should not follow it anymore. The only doctrines of the OT that we need to follow are the doctrines that are mentioned in the NT.

For example, "Love your neighbor as thyself" is both in the NT and OT. We need to follow this, even though this is a doctrine of the OT. The reason that we need to follow this, is because it is mentioned in the NT.

true, even thought Jesus has quoted many scripture from the OT, he has reversed many scripture. Like (Deuteronomy 6:13) says it's ok to swear and (Matthew 5:34) forbids swearing. So what I'm saying, is that Jesus has kept some scripture in the NT and taught the opposite of another scripture.

For this reason, i believe that since we have the comlete NT, we need to follow only the NT. As I said, the reason is because NT cancels many things of the OT.

Well, how do you explain (Matthew 5:31-36)?
Jesus fulfilled the OT, and therefore, we do not have to follow the OT doctrines. That's the way I understand it.

True, and yet the NT says cancels one of the Ten Commandments - the sabath day. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Please explain what you are trying to say through this URL

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

I asking you for a favor.

Please pray for both yourself and myself. When you pray, ask God to uncover his will to both you and me.

Also, when you pray, ask God to either change my point of view, or your point of view. As God to change our point of view to what his will is.

Thanks

Correct, Jesus did fulfill all of the law. Yet, Jesus changed the law completely arround. We actually break the NT if we follow certain parts of the OT (Deuteronomy 6:13) and (Matthew 5:34)