My Avatar
 

My Avatar is a picture of my dog, Zorba. He passed away February 8th after a good life of 12 years. He died in his sleep. I buried him out in the desert.

I had thought about changing my avatar after he passed away, but I have now decided to keep it. His picture reminds me of the love he gave.

Even this morning I still grieve his loss. His spirit has gone back to God and I do hope that, one day, I may encounter his gentle spirit again.

As a serious animal lover who has lost many special pets in my lifetime, I can sympathize with your loss, but I have a doctrinal question.

Where is it shown that animals have eternal spirits, and that their spirits will reconnect with us at some point in the future?

I sympathize with your loss of Zorba.......I have lost beloved pets, most recently two dogs last summer from some sort of poisoning. I still have their mother, a standard poodle 15 years old and doing very well other than hearing loss. Still runs and plays like a pup.

I hope Heaven includes reunion with our special pet friends. Pets have been better friends than people sometimes. I hope to return to Earth with the King of Kings riding my favorite horse of all time (and best friend), Tandi (hence my pen-name). Tandakiya was a rangy, red roan, blanketed Appaloosa with peacock spots, but I expect he will be pure white in his celestial body. : )

How do we know animals have spirits that return to God? Well.....we may not know for sure one way or the other.......but where do these horses come from in Revelation 19?!

Shalom,

Tandi

Are those horse spirits, or horse bodies?

1 Corinthians 15 talks about terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies.

This is a troubling statement. It is similar to a song that I heard recently. The chorus was describing heaven as being beautiful because "you are there". I assumed that it was speaking of Jesus, but then I heard the next verse where it talked of the "you" of the chorus walking and talking with Jesus. The song was about a dead loved one.

The truth of the matter is that our praise and adoration and complete focus will be on the LORD Jesus Christ and Him alone. We will not be concerned about who or what else is present there. There is no Scriptural authority for telling a little child that he will see his dead puppy in heaven! Christians have allowed songs written by men to replace, correct, or add to the Word of God.

If I am wrong, then we have a problem. I am going to need an entire mansion just to hold the number of cats and dogs that I have had as pets, not to mention the mice, gerbils, fish, frogs, and other miscellaneous creatures.

Not the same thing at all! Read the whole context.

How about animals on earth?

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. (Isaiah 11:6-8)

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 65:17-25)

There is NO QUESTION that there will be animals in the new earth. That is as plain as it can be. What is not said is that these are some kind of "resurrected" pets from our lives. God re-creates the earth and repopulates it with His creatures just as at the beginning.

When I was a horse-crazy child, I asked my mom if there were horses in heaven. She said, No.

I was disappointed. I did not think I would enjoy sitting on a park bench listening to harp music for eternity. I was not interested in Heaven if there were no horses. : )

I wish she had shown me Revelation 19 or talked about the Millennial Kingdom with all the gentle animal friends (Isaiah 65). I showed those Scriptures to my 6 year old grandson. He exclaimed, "The future is awesome!"

Since we do not know what awaits...why dampen a child's hopes? A better answer is, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Whatever awaits the redeemed community, it will be awesome! If we knew too much about it, we would not want to stick around on this Earth another day.

Tandi, you have done what too many do with the Scriptures. You stopped with the part that said what you wanted. Now read the next verse:

Re: " My Avatar"
 

Aloha geologist,

I was just going to let your statement pass (as I do with most of the "speculation" that takes place on the Forum), however, by the different
responses of the brethren (and much speculation) I am constrained to comment:

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

I regret to inform you (despite your feelings for your departed pet), but the Holy Scriptures settle the matter. {for all genuine Bible believing Christians - that is} :)

One of the many differences between man and all of God's other creatures is that our "spirit" is unlike any other "beast" in God's creation; and that is because (unlike the Humanist/Evolutionist teach) man is a "spiritual" being clothed in a physical body (our "Tabernacle").

No animal on earth has a "spirit" like man. For that matter - no animal on earth has a "soul", "heart", "mind", or a "conscience" like man. While we tend to "attribute" these things to them {"anthropomorphism"}, I can assure you that the Scriptures do not support these "feelings" or "beliefs".

Geologist,

Your avatar is cute .
Here are some verses that might comfort you.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Heaven is a new beginning. I was going to quote the verse that George quoted above as that was the first verse that came to mind. I also remembered this verse:

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

I would recomend reading from verse 65:17 through verse 25. Our life on earth will be remembered no more and if we love animals,there will be animals we can pleasure in, in the new Heavens.

Aloha,
Renee

Oh man, poor guy. I knew the first response was inevitable.

My question is, does it really matter? Is this the right thread to argue about the spiritual attributes of God's other creations? As George said, it probably would have been best to let this slide for the sake of Geologists emotional attachment. It's hardly a great heresy.

Luke, I agree that this is a poor thread to hijack, but the point is not insignificant. Too often Christians "innocently" add to the truths of Scripture based on emotions. Renee's and George's posts adequately cover the topic, and I am comfortable with the conclusion. If Tandi, Geologist, or others want to discuss it further, then a new thread in another topic group would be better.

Ever since I got saved I've longed for the day I'll get to see Freddy (a cat), the best friend I ever had and my old iguana, Gonzo. Wouldn't suprise me if they were waiting for me right now ;)

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Our church has had a long series of resident cats. It started with Moshe', the one-eyed Siamese mix. Later came Stripe. She had several litters which she trained how to catch the church mice under the observant eyes of our students. One of her kittens came home with us and lived over 20 years. One of her kittens, Sprite, stayed behind and, after she moved on, became the resident mouser. Sprite was a regular in church services, usually sleeping or cleaning herself on the piano or organ, or occasionally under the communion table. You should have seen the look on the faces of visitors when she jumped down out from above the baptistery to join the rest of the members. Now these cats were certainly qualified for a heavenly promotion (better than some of the other members at least). On the other hand, there was Dingcat, Ding for short. She was the greediest, meanest cat we ever had. We lived in the country and had about 20 at the time. When feeding time came we spread the food out on an old picnic table. She would jump up and fight all the others back until she had her fill. That cat was definitely not headed for paradise.

Good story, thanks for sharing it.

I was astonished this morning to find my post on my departed dog had generated such a doctrinal firestorm. It was a real Job 16:2 moment to go with my morning coffee. <smile>

I'm not going to argue doctrine on this matter, but I will speak what I know in my heart. Animals are little furry people, each with their own individual personality traits, shortcomings and attributes. They too ARE living souls, in their own right. They are capable of love and hate. They can be jealous or angry; they can be loving and nurturing. They can be concerned when you are sick and give comfort. They have even been known to sacrifice their life to save someone they loved.

Now and then, a special little someone will come into one's life. Mine wondered into our housing compound in northern Greece from a nearby sheep herder's camp. He was a tiny puppy with large paws who was more than a bit under-nourished. In a few short months he grew into 100 lbs of boundless energy.

When we transferred to the Island of Sao Tome, off the west African coast near Gabon, he killed rats and guarded our home from intruders.

When 911 happened, and I had to go work in the Middle East, he stayed back in the US with my wife and her aunt. And when it was time for my wife and I to move to Germany, he stayed behind in the US with the aging aunt as a comforter, as the old woman was alone and had previously lost her own old dogs.

When the aunt died, I brought him to Germany, where he went to work with me everyday. He was a friend of the local staff and enjoyed rolling in the snow of the high Alpine meadows when we trekked the mountains of southern Germany.

And here in Kuwait, he would once again go to work with me out in the desert everyday, and would sleep in my office to avoid the 120F outside heat.

He was my best friend. And, although I have owned many animals over the years, he was unique.

The Psalmist says that,...love is as strong as death..." and I say, nay, love is stronger than death. And that is all I need to know to have comfort.

The Lord giveth; He taketh away. I am thankful for His gift.

Hello Geologist,

What a beautiful story! I agree with everything you said, and can relate. Good thing your comfort comes from the LORD and Scripture and not us miserable comforters here, myself included. : )

You must live a fascinating life. What do you do in Kuwait? I would love to hear more about life in that part of the world. Do you blog?

Also, I have questions you may be able to help me with concerning fossils, geology, etc. Should I ask them here? My Evolutionist friend claims that pieces of amber encasing flies and grasses would have to be fake. He spotted this in the Dominican Republic. His comment:

True? Are there any amber fossils that disprove Evolution or the dating of "millions of years ago?" Couldn't catastrophism after Noah's flood account for fossils?

Shalom,

Tandi

Come on now Bro. Tim, maybe I'm not that spiritual as some folks, but I have to say that I am certainly looking forward to seeing many of my deceased friends and family members in Heaven one day. I am very concerned about who else will be present there! I will admit my concern does not extend to pets however. (my apologies to all the pet lovers--no offense intended). :)

As I live today, I am too very concerned about who will be in Heaven with me in eternity. But that is now. That is what God has put me here to do. Things will be different when we get there. Sure, I joke with my friends about wanting to ask Peter about a few things. I would like Paul to tell about some of the things he hinted about that happened to him. I would like to finally meet my father's mother who made so the difference in his life as a child that he never ceased to speak of her faith. All I have is her Bible which is full of the most beautiful comments in the tiniest of handwriting. BUT that is now.

Just musing about these things may not be enough of a problem to comment on, but when it becomes the focus of a person, THAT is a problem. There are way too many sappy songs about reuniting with those who have gone before.

I just finished a funeral service for a woman that I had only met at an earlier funeral. Her husband was "almost certain" that she had been baptized, but he didn't know when or where. Her friends and family spoke of her as if she were a saint, but she had no church family. Her favorite songs played at the funeral were not in the slightest reflective of a Godly person. Yet, all that her husband and friends could talk about is seeing her in the "future life". Thank the LORD, I was free to present the truth of the Gospel to a crowd largely made up of those who appeared anything but believers.

Hi Renee,
Just a clarification: The passage you have quoted takes place during the 1,000 year reign of the Lord Jesus Christ on the Earth. Yes, there will be animals there during that time (their wild survival instincts gone) and people will live longer lives similar to the times before Noah's flood (see Isa 65:22 i.e. lifespans as long as trees). But all of this, including this "new heavens and new Earth" are not the same has the new heaven and earth at Revelation 21. We know this because during this 1,000 years there is still death on the Earth (see Isa 65:20). Death is not finally ended until after the end of the 1,000 years (read Rev 20:14).

George.

You did right by correcting the view of Geologist concerning his pet. I let it slide as you were going too.

a small error in one place can build to errors in other places. so it was OK to correct that understanding.

I had a dog I trained he was so smart and loving. when he got out and was struck by car and left Paralyzed I cried like a baby as I had signed the papers to have him put to sleep. that was before I was saved. I too thought I would see him in heaven or that he had gone to a better place.

but the Bible corrected that understanding.

Re: " My Avatar"
 

Geologist,

“Just a clarification” - Your attitude towards the Holy Scriptures is speculative (at best) and defiant (at worst – I will demonstrate). Your refusal to accept the Scriptures, as they are written, is typical of modern day Christians.

I have not commented on your many Posts about your “speculations” over the creation, because I try not to get drawn into issues that have no profit and do not lend themselves to edification. Endless speculation over the creation or prophesy are not only a waste of time, they are destructive to Christian harmony and fellowship.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

However your snide comments to my wife (as if she were some kind of ignoramus) this morning “tears it” (why didn’t you answer me directly?)! And so, if you were astounded by my Biblical answer to your Humanist drivel, here’s some more: ““Just a clarification”:

“Doctrinal firestorm” - There was NO “doctrinal firestorm”. I simply pointed out that, according to the Scriptures, your statement was in error (and only after several Posts by some others on the Forum, seemingly in support of your unscriptural statement.)

Genuine Bible believers apply the Scriptures to every single facet of their lives – NOT just part of their lives. A Biblicist takes what the Lord Jesus Christ said and applies it to his heart, and tries to live by His words – NOT by what we “feel” or “think” is true! [Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]

Until you insulted my wife, I let some of your erroneous statements go by (figuring they weren’t worth replying to) however, your statement above is so “typical” of modern day Christians as to serve as an example of their (and your) attitude towards God’s Holy words.

If DOCTRINE isn’t worth arguing over – WHAT IS? Uncorrupt and sound DOCTRINE is what determines our eternal destiny!
[1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.]

God requires that we “speak the things which become sound doctrine” – NOT our “feelings” or our personal “opinions”.
[Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:]

God requires that as far as our DOCTRINE is concerned – it is to be “uncorrupt” – NOT what we “think” is true, but what God says is true.
Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

God requires that we “obey from the heart” sound doctrine – NOT just do or say whatever makes us “feel good”.
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

You said: "Animals are little furry people". Can you demonstrate (or prove) what you believe with Scripture? I trow not! Then WHY say it?

There are many warnings in the Bible concerning those people who refuse to obey sound doctrine, and what we are to do when we encounter them.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The following statement by you illustrates my point precisely:

For your information – a dog is not a "person" (it is not “someone”, i.e. "people")! In 48 years of marriage we have had several dogs (and cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, ducks, turtles, and Hawaiian “snakes”, etc.). They were all “pets” not “people”. And though I personally believe that dogs make the best “pets”, they are still dogs (animals) not "people", and to say otherwise flies in the face of the very Scriptures you are supposedly trying to defend.

We can love a pet; I do not believe that our pets “love” us. When people anthropomorphize their “feelings” towards their pets (like that lady with the violent chimpanzee) and project what they “feel” for their pets INTO their pets, and “think” that their pet is “reciprocating” their “feelings”, they are blindly fooling themselves!

And now on to your most egregious statement:

Song of Solomon 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

#1. It wasn’t the “Psalmist” that said those words – it was Solomon (David’s son).

#2. When someone openly DENIES what the Scripture plainly says and then ADDS to the Holy words of God – that “does it for me”!

Do you even realize WHAT you just said? You just openly DENIED the Holy words of God! :( You said NAY to God! :eek: When a man does that openly, before genuine Bible believers, what do you expect us to do? When you openly declared NAY to the words of God, you removed whatever credibility you might have had (at least for me) when it comes to any and all of your comments regarding the Holy Scriptures. When you declare NAY to a clear statement from Scripture and then declare: “that is all I need to know to have comfort.” – It tells me that you are not a sincere and genuine Bible believer, so WHY should I take anything that you say seriously? :confused:

Your misuse of the verse below in regards to your dog was the “final straw” for me (personally).

Job 1:21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

You see, the Lord took our oldest son (42 years old) Home to be with Him nearly five years ago. When we received the call informing us of his sudden and unexpected death – instantly Job 1:21 came to my mind (and gave me great comfort) and very soon after 2 Corinthians 5:8 also came to my mind [2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.], and God comforted me (and my wife Renee) with His precious words. The very idea that you would equate your dog with a person is abhorrent to me! :( The very idea that you felt about your dog, the way we felt about our son is so foreign to me, as to generate within me feelings of revulsion! :mad: I repeat – A DOG IS NOT A "PERSON"! Dogs DO NOT have "souls" - like us! They DO NOT have "spirits" - like us! They DO NOT have "hearts" or "minds" - like us! They CANNOT discern the difference between "good & evil" - like us! They have NO "conscience" - like us! They are NOT going to spend eternity, either with the Lord, or in the Lake of Fire!

And finally your quote:
Quote:
I notice that you avoided addressing me (or my comments) directly. Instead, in an off-hand manner, and very subtly, you “corrected” my wife (after she was innocently trying to empathize with you) because she forgot to include the word “earth” in her final comment. Did you take the time to read the verse that she quoted? {Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.} Do you “think” that after having been married to me for 48 years that she couldn’t discern between those things of which you spoke? What was your point then?

Or could you not help yourself? You just had get in at least one “cheap shot” in order to justify your blatant DEFIANCE of God’s Holy words and openly CHANGING them.

After observing your utter “disregard” for the Holy words of God in this instance, you may rest assured, that I for one, will disregard anything you have to say from here on out! :eek: I learned long ago to avoid "gnat strainers" and Bible correctors. :frusty:

Perhaps Geologist will
Learn from the wisdom of Brother George's reply.

Please know my heart. In no way am I debating the issue or invalidating the way you feel. But your comment "He was my best friend" makes me think of this reality.

Every Christian should know that Jesus Christ has called you His friend. Wow! Is that amazing? Does that make you feel special? Pause and absorb that truth. Think about who YOU are and who HE is. The creator of all things calls me His friend.

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:” (Colossians 1:16).

Let that sink in today. Jesus Christ is your friend! I have not earned His friendship. It’s not that I’m worthy or deserving. Jesus did not say, “Wow that’s Forrest…I think I want to be his friend.” Come on! Do any of us deserve to be called the friend of Jesus?

Jesus is our friend because He is the personification of mercy, grace, love, and forgiveness. Holy and righteous God has reached down to sinful man through Jesus Christ.

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life” (Romans 5:10).

I am the friend of Jesus. He is my best friend. Who is yours?

[QUOTE]
Proverbs 30:25: The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer;

Shalom,

Tandi

Brother Forrest,

Post # 27 this thread. That would make a good thread. Maybe you should START A thread on "WHO IS YOUR BEST FRIEND?". Be nice to end this thread, real soon.


RENEE

Yes, I received a great deal of wisdom from George's reply, and yours. The message is quite clear.

Re: " My Avatar"
 

[quote=Tandi;17034]Tandi,

If, by citing this one Scripture, you are saying that "ants" are EQUAL to people (men & women), then your misuse of the verse shows a complete lack of discernment on your part. If, on the other hand, you are just trying to be "clever", then it demonstrates that you ignored every single Scriptural point that I made in my Post (concerning geologist's misuse of the Holy words of God), in order to try to prove your point.

When I said {"For your information – a dog is not a "person" (it is not “someone”, i.e. "people")"; and - "They were all “pets” not “people”; and - "I repeat – A DOG IS NOT A "PERSON"! Dogs DO NOT have "souls" - like us! They DO NOT have "spirits" - like us! They DO NOT have "hearts" or "minds" - like us! They CANNOT discern the difference between "good & evil" - like us! They have NO "conscience" - like us! They are NOT going to spend eternity, either with the Lord, or in the Lake of Fire!"} Didn't I make it crystal clear that I was comparing dogs (ALL ANIMALS) with HUMAN BEINGS?

Geologist made the ridiculous (unscriptural) claim (from his "heart" - NOT from the Bible) that "Animals are little furry people, each with their own individual personality traits, shortcomings and attributes. They too ARE living souls, in their own right. They are capable of love and hate. They can be jealous or angry; they can be loving and nurturing." He was clearly saying that "animals are like human beings (i.e. "people") - NOT ANTS!

Geologist was not comparing dogs to ANTS! Geologist was comparing dogs with people (human beings); and making the FALSE CLAIM that "animals are little furry people" (like human beings) - with many of the same attributes that we (human beings) have. I simply pointed out that his private opinion does not line up with the Holy words of God - which he has proven to have very little regard for, when he openly denies what God said, and then ADDS to, and CHANGES the Scriptures to suit his own private interpretation.

Just in case you think your clever subterfuge negates what I stated - read the verse again: [Proverbs 30:25: The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer;] The verse DOES NOT SAY: "Ants are people" - It says "the ants are A PEOPLE"! I said "a dog is NOT A PERSON"! Are you saying they are? I said dogs (& animals) are "pets NOT people" (human beings - I didn't say "a people"!). Are you claiming they are? When I said "A DOG IS NOT A "PERSON"! Dogs DO NOT have "souls" - like us! They DO NOT have "spirits" - like us! They DO NOT have "hearts" or "minds" - like us! They CANNOT discern the difference between "good & evil" - like us! They have NO "conscience" - like us! They are NOT going to spend eternity, either with the Lord, or in the Lake of Fire!" Do you disagree with anything that I said?

Could I have been any clearer? I was comparing dogs (all animals) with human beings; and any honest person knows that quite well. I repeat (for your & geologist's benefit) Animals are NOT people (human beings)! And to "equate" them with us (HUMANS) is Humanistic rubbish and UNSCRIPTURAL. We EAT ANIMALS (some folks even eat ANTS!) - WE DON'T EAT PEOPLE! :eek:

Doesn't it bother you at all that geologist cited the wrong source (when he quoted Scripture); DENIED a clear statement of Scripture; CORRECTED the Bible; CHANGED the Holy words of God; and TWISTED Gods words in order to justify his personal opinion?

It's one thing to love your pet, it's quite another when a Christian says about his dog: "He was my best friend"! :confused: Someone is out of balance. Something is out of order. My very "BEST FRIEND" is the Lord Jesus Christ. My dearest and closest friend, that I have here on earth, is my wife (I wonder how geologist's wife feels about his dog being his "best friend"? Hmmm?). I have several very good Christian friends that I hold very dear in my heart - NO DOG ever came close to these relationships, and NO DOG ever will! :(

Christians have to keep their "PRIORITIES" straight. ALL the dogs in the world are not worth ONE HUMAN SOUL! I will even go further - ALL the animals in the world are not worth ONE HUMAN SOUL!

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

If a single soul (a human being) is worth more than the "whole world", then it certainly is worth more than ALL the dogs in that world! :jaw:

George,

Your replies have been an eye opener on many levels to some of us. I want to thank you for taking the time. even though you were clearly frustrated. some of your points and observations opened my eyes on other levels of Bible use, misuse, and even malpractice of Scripture application.

Many Mahalao's Brah for letting us learn from your wisdom.

God's blessing you with wisdom and strength.

My point in quoting Proverbs 30 was that the word “people” does not necessarily mean “humans.” Why was Geologist not given an opportunity to clarify his remarks before such a cruel denunciation and diatribe? And even if his views differ from those of others, must we all walk in lockstep in our understanding of the Bible?

The persecution heaped on Geologist leads me to take his Ruin-Reconstruction research more seriously, just when I was tending to dismiss it due to some of the counterpoints offered on another thread. I appreciate ministries that “think outside the box” of religious dogma, while fully accepting the authority of the Scriptures.

I can see how a dog can be “man’s best friend” when people (the human kind) can be so heartless sometimes. Special pets DO give and receive love.....and never judge us or question our devotion to God.

Shalom,

Tandi

Well Geologist, I just want to say sorry about your dog.
After our last one died (Boxer), I decided no more for me but I realize people can get attached to them. God bless...

Re: " My Avatar"
 

Aloha sister Tandi,

I will try one more time to get my point across.

Please read through the Posts again. Geologist was "given an opportunity" to "clarify his remarks", and all he did was make a bad situation worse! He went from stating his personal opinion about a matter, (which was in error and contrary to the Scriptures) to - DENYING, CORRECTING, CHANGING, and ADDING to the Holy words of God! WHY can't you see that? :confused: Your "point" was irrelevant, because it had nothing to do with the issue - which was: geologist was claiming that his dog (and other animals) possess some of the SAME ATTRIBUTES AS PEOPLE (human beings) - which, according to the Bible, is UNTRUE. What is so hard to understand about that? :confused: The fact that ANTS are called "a people" has no bearing on the subject under discussion - at all.

Geologist made his comments (His original Thread) on 3/15/09. After 11 Posts by others (3/16/09), I made my comments in regards to "speculation" and to the truth about the attributes of men as compared to those of animals. I only stated the TRUTH - that's all that I did (re-read the Posts). I never "attacked" geologist; or judged him; or questioned his "devotion to God".

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

My wife tried to console geologist with her Post (3/16/09), and after quoting two verses in reference to the future, she forgot to include the word earth in her final comment (but the word was in one of the verses that she used in empathizing with geologist). {I didn't know (at the time) that she even made the Post.}

Up to this point, everything was "hunkydory". Everyone, who was interested, had made their point, and I (for one) was willing to leave it at that. BUT - geologist came back (3/16/09) with his unscriptural reply, wherein he DENIED the Holy words of God {"NAY"); and then CHANGED them to suit his private interpretation; and then ADDED to them to suit his purposes.

Can you not see WHAT he did? Do you not understand the gravity of WHAT he did? Do the Holy words of God mean so little that we can DENY them; CHANGE them; and ADD to them whenever we please - because we may have a "good end" in mind, or because we want to support our own private opinion on an issue? :confused: I trow not!

Your reply to geologist was: "What a beautiful story! I agree with everything you said, and can relate. Good thing your comfort comes from the LORD and Scripture and not us miserable comforters here, myself included. :)" Although it truly was a touching story, geologist had DENIED God's word; CHANGED it; and ADDED to it in order to support his "feelings" about his dog. {"'I'm not going to argue doctrine on this matter, but I will speak what I know in my heart."} In other words, he not only disregarded God's Holy words - He DENIED the truth of them and then CHANGED God's words to justify himself.

What a person "knows" from their heart is NOT always the SAME as the "Scripture of truth".

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Even after geologist made his blasphemous claims I was going to let them slide (since I already had ascertained, from some of his Posts, that he indulges in a lot of "speculation" - when it comes to the Scriptures). It was only after he took his "cheap shot" at my wife ("straining at gnats"), that I decided to reply to his shoddy treatment of my Bible.

There are a few things that get "my dander up": #1. Denigrating my Lord; #2. Corrupting His Holy word; #3. Criticizing, casting aspersions, or impugning my wife. And #4. Criticizing, casting aspersions, or impugning my friends. And geologist "crossed the line" on half of them.

My reply (3/18/09) to geologist was in the form of a rebuke (for CORRECTING the Holy words of God) and a reproof about his hypocritical attitude towards my wife (for forgetting the word "earth") - while he was CHANGING the words of God. {Which is more important - FORGETTING or CHANGING?}

Your reply to me was a disappointment, because, by some of your Posts, I expected better from you. To take one single, solitary verse (out of the context of the issue under discussion), and ignore the egregious error geologist is promoting, and all of the the rest of the points that I made, is incomprehensible to me. The Biblical principal is that a "LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP".

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

To throw up one verse, as if it was applicable to the issue at hand, and without any comment, is a sign of immaturity (no matter how old one is). Practically everyone who has commented on this issue knew exactly WHO geologist was comparing his dog to (people - i.e. human beings), and no matter how you or geologist "feel" about dogs and other pets - they are NOT PEOPLE.

There is not an animal on earth that shares our unique attributes (other than the fact that animals have bodies and so do we - that is where the similarities end). To "think" that animals have "feelings" like we do, is not Biblically sound. All animals are incapable of loving God; knowing God; understanding spiritual matters; loving others as they ("love themselves"?); and a host of other human emotions, feelings, and thoughts.

In the course of 48 years of marriage, my wife and I have had at least 10 or more pet dogs (we had seven children). When the time came that those pets died don't you know that we were saddened and that our hearts were broken more than once because we loved and cared for them? Do you think that I am a "heartless" old curmudgeon? BUT, in all the time that we had those pets we never once ever thought of them AS PEOPLE! We never thought that they possessed some of the SAME ATTRIBUTES that we possess. I personally never thought of any one of our pets as "my best friend". They are "animals" after all - NOT PEOPLE.

I may be an old curmudgeon - but I'm not a "heartless" old curmudgeon, I am not "cruel" and I don't "persecute" people. As a matter of fact, I allow for a whole lot more "Christian Liberty" than most of the brethren. If you think that rebuking or reproving or admonishing a brother in Christ is "cruel", or that it is a form of "persecution", you need to read about real cruelty and persecution in the Holy Bible. Or you might consider reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs where Christians down through the centuries endured real cruelty and persecution!

Where would a Christian get the idea that a rebuke, or a reproof, or an admonishment is "cruel" or that those words are equivalent to "persecution"? I submit to you that our Humanistic "culture" teaches these things - not the Bible.

Whenever anybody on this Forum attacks or denigrates My Lord; His word; my wife; or my friends, you can be sure of one thing - as long as there is breath in my body, I will defend them with all my strength, and earnestly contend with the offender (man or woman - saved or lost).

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

:amen: and thank you brother George. BIBLE TRUTH MATTERS!!!

Let's have some mercy here and put this thread down, like you would an old dog that needs to be put out of its misery.

Point: I was jumped because I called Zorba, “My best friend” because, according to the opinion of these brethren, I should have said Jesus was my best friend. Nobody gave me the benefit of a doubt that the context of the reference was my personal relationship with another living creature ON THIS EARTH.

Point: I have been accused of blasphemy and changing the Word of God because I made the remark concerning Song 8:6 when I said, “Nay, but love is stronger than death”.

I stand by that statement for this reason: God IS love. (see 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16). And the Lord God's love on the cross was AND IS stronger than death. The words in Song 8:6 were penned BEFORE Calvary. My statement is true today.

Concerning any of the rest, we simply have a difference of opinion about animals. Certainly, they are not humans, but they are a 'people' (as Tandi correctly pointed out). Can they think and reason? Ask Balaam's Ass (Numbers 22:23). She certainly demonstrated care and concern and, when the Lord opened her mouth so she could speak, she expressed herself quite well. This was not a case of God playing a ventriloquist.

As for George's claim that I insulted his wife, this was not my intent and I apologize for the misconception. I merely wanted to point out that I believe that Isaiah 65:17 through 65:25 was describing the 1,000 years ON THE EARTH REIGN of the Lord Jesus Christ and this was NOT a description of the post millennial world that begins at Revelation 21. If George and his wife disagree with that, then so be it. We will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Ok, I've said my peace.
Thank you.

Brother this is my exact statement. In no way was I implying you loved your dog more than you do Jesus. I specifically said:

Re: " My Avatar"
 

geologist,

You can't leave well enough alone - can you?

Again, I would not have replied to this recent Post and let you continue justifying yourself, if it were not for the fact that you are still CORRECTING the word of God!

POINT: Your statement wasn't just a harmless "remark", as you would have us think. Your reasoning in this matter is unscriptural! Solomon was NOT speaking about GOD'S LOVE! He was speaking about "human love" (look at the context!), and rather than seek understanding in this matter you just jumped to the conclusion that this verse must be WRONG (because it was written before Calvary?). By still standing by your former statement, and still saying "NAY" to God's words - you are STILL DENYING the truth of God's word (in this case) and rather than admit it, and correct your attitude, you continue to justify yourself, rather than just simply admit that you are wrong! :eek:

Your comments about Balaam's ass are way beyond comprehension! Do you really think that animals can "think and reason" like human beings - just because of this one miraculous account? Is this how we Christians are to "rightly divide the word of truth" - by taking one miraculous account (performed by God - contrary to all of nature) recorded in the Scriptures and then draw "general conclusions" from that account? I trow not! [Isaiah 28:10-13]

This is not just: "we simply have a difference of opinion about animals." If it were just simply a matter of "opinion", I would not have even commented on your Post. I have already read plenty of "opinion" and "speculation" coming from you in regards to the creation - and I never once commented on any of them. The problem is your "attitude" towards the Scriptures; and the fact that you ignored 90% of what I said in regards to your attitude towards God's Holy words, and instead justified yourself and made excuses for every erroneous and false thing that you said.

The rest of your excuses and alibis are just more attempts to "twist" words around and alter them; and make them say something other than what you first said. {This is something that Sophists do - NOT Bible believers - Not good!} :( With the exception of Tandi, all the rest of the brethren (that commented) understood what your inferences and comments were about, i.e. animals have many of the SAME ATTRIBUTES as people. It's too late to try and CHANGE what you said. {But it's not too late to admit that you are wrong.}

This reminds me of the "Title" to one of your former Threads: "Why is this not a contradiction?" When I first saw the "title I asked myself - WHY would a genuine Bible believer state or put forth a question concerning a Bible issue in such a manner? I now understand WHY!

Like I said before - you have lost all credibility with me, and you may rest assured that I will (from this point on) ignore everything you have to say, unless you continue to CORRECT the Bible, or there comes a day when you are willing to stop JUSTIFYING yourself. This is not a case of: "Let's have some mercy". It's a case of: "Judge righteous judgment". [John 7:14]

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

God didn't say - if any man speak, let him speak from his heart whatever he thinks is true; and He certainly doesn't "approve" of Christians DENYING His Holy word in order to justify a "personal opinion". We are to "speak as the oracles of God" - NOT DENY them; CHANGE them; ADD to them; and then through subtle and clever "sophistry" JUSTIFY our pernicious acts.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

The verse said: "For the word of the LORD is right" and that includes Song of Solomon 8:6 - regardless of the FACT that it was written before Calvary; and in spite of the FACT that you "think" that it is WRONG, and then had the audacity to DENY THE TRUTH (your word "NAY" - not mine), and then CHANGED it, and then ADDED to it! :eek:

I have a very simple rule (and have had since 1968) when a Christian says "NAY" TO God's Holy words - I say NAY TO THEM!

James 3:6-10 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

1 Timothy 6:4-5 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

And I shall.