AV1611 Bible Forum Archive - Advanced Revelation

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Everyone has written some great stuff.

I must say, and I say this in a most careful way, I do not think that the context here (of Ruckman’s advanced revelation) is as clear as we might want. Even if we assume that Ruckman is joking, that still leaves some questions. 1.) is this idea limited to this one place or are their other places which Ruckman deals with this idea, so perhaps those other places can shed some future light on this subject (either they will shown that Ruckman is being funny or he is not)?; 2.) Why have intelligent men interpreted Ruckman this way, including those of the King James Bible Only camp?; 3.) Should Ruckman or anyone for that matter use phrases like this, even if to make a joke?

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- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)

advanced revelation - discuss substance over form

Hi Folks,

The issue isn't so much whether there is a sense of irony (imho, not really joking, more irony) in some of the usages of 'advanced revelation' by Peter Ruckman, the issue is how so much is put under this heading unclearly, especially by the critics.

e.g. Rick Norris thinks that the idea that the italicized words are fully scripture constitutes Peter Ruckman "advanced revelation".

Preferably without switching to a discussion of Gail Riplinger, please note:

Rick Norris
Riplinger seems to hold to the same unscriptural advanced revelation view as Peter Ruckman. In an earlier book, Riplinger even suggested that the words in italics in the KJV should be regarded as inspired. She wrote: "The veracity of the italics in the KJV have been proven true to such a degree that this author feels no need to pick them out and set them apart as uninspired"

In this article .. italicized words .. is what Rick Norris comes up with, with all his meticulous critiques of anything he can try to come up with under the sun.

Yet many on this forum would agree that we make no scriptural authority distinction between the italicized words and straight fonts. So we would be similarly accused. Whether or not we used the phrase 'advanced revelation', we would happily be guilty as charged of considering every single word as full pure and perfect scripture.

Check the web. Most critics don't give any examples at all. And the Bible Believers Bulletin, available on the net, gives a good dozen or two examples in depth, in a series of articles from Peter Ruckman, of where the English King James Bible is superior to "the Greek" (allowing for "the Greek" to be a term with many usages itself).

Now we may not agree with his examples (I felt they were generally good solid examples when I looked at them a while back). However anybody who is critiquing the Peter Ruckman view in comparing the King James Bible and the "original language texts" should actually address the examples he meticulously gives.

Now granted, this phrase "advanced revelation" seems to pull multi-duty, from italics, to English clarity where Greek is uncertain and less clear, to various other original language fuzziness issues. And then to actual doctrines, interpretations of Peter Ruckman, with which we may agree or disagree. (And most of us likely disagree with many.) The last batch does complicate the issue because the same term is being used for his specific interps. For the purposes here we should be discussing examples that are directly off of the English King James Bible text differentiations from the Greek or Hebrew.

(One personal example: I have even tried to study out whether "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" in the King James Bible .. perfect translation doctrinally with the proper and significant distinction .. are simply properly reflecting the simple and true Greek grammar differentiation that is lost by many modern doofus scholars. Modern textcrit-seminarian scholarship becomes so confused that they can barely even understand the question, much less yet give the answer.)

Personally I do not see any reason to get all concerned, in a huff, about the phrase "advanced revelation" or a phrase like "alexandrian cult". Simply look at the examples and consider them. If you consider them fallacious say why. If you dunno, say dunno. If you agree, and you don't like the term "advanced revelation" then offer your new, superior phrase for the phenomenon of English King James Bible textual clarity, majesty, perfection .. untrumped by any Greek or other language, and the KJB clearer and more able to be understood.

Before finishing this post, I am looking for any other examples discussed on the web, in addition to the Rick Norris attack on the italicized words of the Holy Bible.

In one article Peter Ruckman uses the term "advanced revelation" in a discussion of hyperdispensationalism. However it is not referring to a specific English-superior King James Bible teaching, so it is being used with another sense.

In another article John Henry, very solidly pro-KJB, distances himself from Peter Ruckman for "advanced revelation" for the King James Bible .. without a single discussion of examples or context or usage of the phrase.

Anyway, the examples in Bible Believers Bulletin are available for reading and discussion. Perhaps examples like - 2 Cor. 2:17 and "peddle" vs. "corrupt", one of the few examples given on the web in discussions of Peter Ruckman. Given in a Thomas Holland - James White discussion.

Interestingly, Thomas Holland discussed this very nicely, without trying to create an artificial distance from the Peter Ruckman view of the English and Greek on the verse.

http://members.aol.com/DrTHolland/1995letter.html
1995 Response Letter To White - Thomas Holland

Shalom,
Steven

Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Fuction!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 5213)

(One personal example: I have even tried to study out whether "faith in Christ" and "faith of Christ" in the King James Bible .. perfect translation doctrinally with the proper and significant distinction .. are simply properly reflecting the simple and true Greek grammar differentiation that is lost by many modern doofus scholars. Modern textcrit-seminarian scholarship becomes so confused that they can barely even understand the question, much less yet give the answer.)

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26). You must understand that there are two aspects to faith. One, is the Function of faith and is usually designated by the word “your” or something similar. Two, is the Doctrine of faith, which is usually found proceeded by the article “the”. An example of this is found in (Col. 1:23) “ If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”. Here faith is referring to the doctrine/the gospel. Therefore, we can see that “faith of Jesus Christ” is in reference, NOT to the function of Christ’s faith nor even our function of faith, BUT to the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).
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- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”

- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)

- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)

That is the first time i have heard it.

Advance Revelation mentioned By Ruckman has a two part meaning.

1) the AV 1611 Translation contained God preserved word which taught truths the men had yet to figure out. a) The Earth was round is found throughout the scriptures in all copies up to the first completed whole English 1611 version Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, b) I read an article where scientist tell us that our planet is upside down compared to the rest in our solar system Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down,

2) That the prophecy were advanced revelation of future events that have yet to take place some of which also already have taken place. for example God said that he would gather Israel back into the land. then for the first time since 400 years before Christ Israel became a recognized Nation in 1948. to many references to metnion but I think you all get the idea.

Ruckman also calls the KJV Bible "special revelation". you can read it in the article entitled "Finding the Truth" in his latest bulletin, it is good.