AV1611 Bible Forum Archive
The King James Bible Page
SwordSearcher Bible Software

Go Back   AV1611 Bible Forum Archive > Bible Studies

Bible Studies Post and discuss short Bible studies.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:37 PM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Yeah it is sad to say know the Hamite's want the Jhaphite Americans to apologize for slavery and give them appropriations. when it was God who put them in that predicament. They should thank the God of Israel they have freedom in the USofA. I have seen a few Hamite submit themselves to a Jhaphite company owner and work hard and that Jhaphite has blessed them and they are well off because of that.
  #12  
Old 07-02-2009, 08:37 AM
Brother Tim's Avatar
Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 864
Default

Where are the posters, George and others, that examine the exactness of God's words, and yet are silent with this absolute distortion of Scripture?

Underlining and bold mine for emphasis:
Quote:
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Can someone show me, Chette, Solomon, or others, WHERE the entire family of Ham was cursed??? ONE man's decendents, Canaan's, were cursed. These are NOT identified as all black-skinned people!!!

It is apparent that some among us have fallen into the trap of bigotry.

Who are the Canaanites (who received the curse)?
Quote:
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
Refer again to verse 19. Is any of this territory in Africa???

This idea of equating the black-skinned person with the curse of Canaan is false, ignorant, and shameful. It needs to be retracted and rejected!
  #13  
Old 07-03-2009, 03:45 AM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
Where are the posters, George and others, that examine the exactness of God's words, and yet are silent with this absolute distortion of Scripture?

Underlining and bold mine for emphasis:Can someone show me, Chette, Solomon, or others, WHERE the entire family of Ham was cursed??? ONE man's decendents, Canaan's, were cursed. These are NOT identified as all black-skinned people!!!

It is apparent that some among us have fallen into the trap of bigotry.

Who are the Canaanites (who received the curse)?


Refer again to verse 19. Is any of this territory in Africa???

This idea of equating the black-skinned person with the curse of Canaan is false, ignorant, and shameful. It needs to be retracted and rejected!
Tim, I'm working on the passages myself at the moment, from the perspective of what the SCRIPTURES say, precept upon precept, line upon line. This is another example of things I've said many times: You can't bend the Scriptures around a preconceived notion, they don;t bend. You either bend with them or you break.

I have computer problems at the moment, but needless to say, there is no link between Leviticus 18 and Genesis 9. I'll demonstrate what Noah "knew" was "done to him" and it wasn;t sodomy. The curse was fulfilled and does not extend into the Grace age, we were not prophesied in the Scriptures(Eph. 3) We were all, black and white, red, purple and green, out of the commonwealth of Israel BUT NOW made nigh by the blood of Christ. I find the whole premise as distasteful as you do.

Grace and peace brother

Tony
  #14  
Old 07-03-2009, 08:31 AM
Diligent's Avatar
Diligent Diligent is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma, USA.
Posts: 641
Default

Brothers Tim and Tony,

I'm with you guys. I'm really, really tired of people reading into this passage -- both in making assumptions about what was "done to" Noah and assuming that our modern ideas of "race" can be grafted on to the curse in some way.
  #15  
Old 07-03-2009, 08:50 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
Brothers Tim and Tony,

I'm with you guys. I'm really, really tired of people reading into this passage -- both in making assumptions about what was "done to" Noah and assuming that our modern ideas of "race" can be grafted on to the curse in some way.
Agreed Brother.

Only when we are received into Glory will this topic be settled for me when I hear it straight from the Lords lips, as far as what was "done" unto Noah, does it matter to our salvation? no of course not, the trouble with speculation is that it is NOT exact truth, unless the Bible was absolutely CLEAR about what was done unto Noah, I choose not to speculate but simply rest in the fact all these questions I see through a glass darkly will one day be answered in a manner that no man on earth through speculation will ever attain to, the truth from the Blessed Saviour, the Word himself, the Lord Jesus Christ
Until that day I pray that The Lord keeps my thoughts fuzzy and unclear when it comes to speculation, for I know I shouldn't be doing it.

Psalms 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
  #16  
Old 07-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Brother Tim's Avatar
Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 864
Default

There is two separate issues, though connected.

First, the act committed by Ham.
Second, the false application of the curse to a group of people who were not in any way included in that curse.

As far as the first, WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW what that specific act was. If God intended that we should know the details, HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US in no uncertain terms! Sufficient for us is that Canaan's decendents were cursed by Noah based on this act. We are simply given that the curse had a reason. We cannot even assume that Noah's curse carries the full weight of God's judgment.

As for the second, this horrible, false connection between the history of the slavery of black-skinned people with the curse of Canaan is purely and absolutely based in bigotry and racism, and has NOT a SINGLE iota of Scriptural evidence. The reality is that there has been throughout history a continuous string of one people enslaving another people. I dare say that the total numbers of slaves throughout history is far greater among non-blacks than blacks. Using Chette's and KingSolomon's terms, "Hamites" have enslaved other "Hamites" just as much or more as any "Jephethites" have enslaved "Hamites"! Just how does the Egyptian (who were likely "Hamites") enslavement of "Shemites" fit?? This idea of Chette's is quite prevalent around here in Florida among a certain group of people. They still wear the pointed white hats when they have their meetings. I challenge Chette, an otherwise strong Bible student, to re-evaluate his prospective, and then publicly retract and reject this filthy idea.
  #17  
Old 07-03-2009, 12:38 PM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

I did notice the incorrect references to the Hamite curse.

I personally feel that conjecturing about things in scripture that aren't clear is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you realize it is indeed conjecture. Whether it's wise to post those conjectures on a public forum is another matter entirely. Maybe I'll try not to do that again.

With that said, my other cynical comment about who's your baby's momma is not in character with my viewpoint on race, which is that it is not relevant in any way in the church age to God and it shouldn't be to us, either. I regret writing that comment. It was foolish jesting and certainly doesn't uplift Christ who died for ALL of the sons of Adam. Shortly after posting I felt slightly sick to my stomach about it but by then it was too late to edit. Hopefully, we have black brothers and sisters who read and participate on this forum and God forbid we should hurt or offend them in that way. If they read this thread and weren't offended but only saddened, as I'm certain Christ is, then they fill up the love that was missing here.

The ignorance and lack of love displayed in this thread is also not a very good testimony to any unsaved people who might happen upon Brandon's website, either. I believe it undermines all of Brandon's purposes in providing this forum.

I'm glad Brother Tim called us on it. He and Brandon and Tony are right and I agree.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-03-2009 at 01:01 PM.
  #18  
Old 07-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Brother Tim's Avatar
Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 864
Default

Conjecture itself may not be wrong, but basing one's belief or view of life on conjecture is wrong. Using one's imagination to fill in the scenes of the Bible may not be not erroneous in itself, but creating a doctrine or Bible interpretation on such is fallacy.

I have met far too many Christian folk in my life that somehow think that the "white race" is superior to the "black race" (although they used a far more derogatory term) based on what they have heard some preacher say about Ham's curse. It is the scourge of the common American church that there is such a saying, "The most segregated place in America is the Sunday morning church service."
  #19  
Old 07-03-2009, 01:09 PM
greenbear's Avatar
greenbear greenbear is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 492
Default

1 Corinthians 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
  #20  
Old 07-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Brother Presswood's Avatar
Brother Presswood Brother Presswood is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 15
Default

A few years ago, I found a pamphlet entitled Biblical Segregation, in which the author was attempting to prove that God demands that the races be segregated when it comes to worship. I chose to refute this concept in my doctoral dissertation. In it, I address the issue being discussed in this thread. I would like to offer some of my thoughts on the matter.

At the foundation of the false ideology of biblical segregation is a gross misinterpretation of God’s curse on Noah’s son, Ham, recorded in Genesis chapter 9. In this passage, segregationists found what they considered a clear explanation of the role of the black man in society. According to Pastor Humphrey K. Ezell, “In this account God has segregated the races. Shem and Japheth are to dwell in tents together; but a curse is placed upon Ham and his descendants, and they are to be servants to Shem and Japheth. There is no evidence anywhere in the Scriptures that this curse…has been lifted.”

Genesis 9:22, And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. Ham showed serious disrespect for his father. Instead of covering him when he saw him uncovered, he went and told his two brothers. What exactly is Ham's sin? Noah's judgment seems harsh if all Ham did was see his father without any clothes on and poke a little fun at him.

To fully understand Ham’s sin, we need to see how the problem is solved in verse 23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. Shem and Japheth back into the tent, carefully avoiding a glance at their father's nakedness, and they put a covering on him.

It is best to take this story at face value, understanding Ham’s sin as one of disrespect of his father and broadcasting of his father’s shame. Again, to read something else into the story is mere speculation. The connection between drunkenness, nakedness, and shame runs throughout the Word of God.

Ham should have been covering his father's nakedness, taking pity on his shame. Ham is a “talebearer” who “revealeth secrets” instead of being of a “faithful spirit” and one who “concealeth the matter” (Proverbs 11:13). Ham did not seek love by covering his father’s transgression (Proverbs 17:9). Ham is breaking the fifth commandment, which tells us to honor our father and our mother.

This commandment is more about duty to God than duty to parents. Parents rule with the authority of God, and honor given to them is honor that is due to God. So Ham, in despising his father’s nakedness and ridiculing him, is committing a truly terrible act; he is despising and ridiculing the authority of God. Ham believes his father, who bears a godlike relation to him, is not to be respected but rather to be ridiculed and made the object of gossip and jokes. For children to disobey their parents is to disobey God. To disrespect them is to disrespect God. To hate them is to hate God. At the time of this event in Noah’s life he was over 500 years old; his children are grown. It is a sin, at any age, to dishonor your parents, to ridicule them, or make yourself look good or wise at their expense. This is to dishonor and ridicule God and make yourself wiser than He.

The sin against God in this story comes in the form of sin against his appointed ruler, Noah. Shem and Japheth take over God’s role in covering their father's nakedness, just as God Himself covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Noah, rather than God himself, will be the one to pronounce the curse on Ham and to pronounce a blessing on Shem and Japheth.

Shem and Japheth at least showed the respect that was due to their father, by going backwards into the tent and covering their father. Proper respect will seek to cover failure rather than to expose it. Ham had exposed his father’s nakedness; Shem and Japheth’s action is the direct opposite of Ham's. Notice the care with which they accomplish this covering: they lay a garment on their shoulders and carefully back into the tent until their averted eyes recognize the edge of their father's bed. Then, sending the garment backwards from their shoulders, they lay it upon him, never looking. They take every precaution. Their action is Godlike.


And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (Genesis 9:24, 25)
When Noah awoke, he knew that Ham had shown this disrespect toward him, though we are not told how he found out. He then pronounced a curse, not upon Ham, but upon Ham’s son Canaan. Ham could not have been cursed because God has already blessed him. Canaan would be “a servant of servants” to his brethren. He would serve Shem (vs. 26) and he would serve Japheth (vs. 27). How far this curse would extend to Canaan’s children we do not know.

The curse on Canaan has nothing whatsoever to do with skin color, but is an example warning fathers to train their children in godly principles. Perhaps Noah saw in his grandson Canaan the same disrespect and propensity to mock as did his son Ham. The Word of God bears testimony to the fact that, all too often, when the father sins, the next generation learns from their father. The sons are often more wicked than their father and are prone to pass on the generational curse to their children. It seems that Noah understood that Canaan’s descendants would also possess the insolent nature of Ham.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study  The Fundamental Top 500