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  #1  
Old 05-31-2009, 10:38 AM
Will Kinney's Avatar
Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Location: Colorado, a beautiful state with four distinct seasons; sometimes in the same day!
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Default John 14:2 in my Father's house are many MANSIONS

Mansions

John 14:2 King James Bible: "In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Some modern version proponents object to the use of the word "mansions" as an accurate translation of the word monas in Greek. They say it is better translated as "rooms" (NIV) or "dwelling places" (NASB).

One such Bible critic is Doug Kutilek. He has written an article criticizing the King James Bible's use of the word "mansions" by telling us that it does not convey to the modern reader the true meaning of the Greek word used, and that the KJB's use of mansion supposedly came from the Latin Vulgate. His article can be seen here:

http://sharperiron.org/2009/05/13/a-...hilltop/print/

Keep in mind that Doug Kutilek does not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language is now nor ever has been the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God. His stated doctrinal position is typical of most Bible Agnostics today. His doctrinal statement regarding the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture says: "We believe the Scriptures as originally given by God, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God, infallible, entirely trustworthy, and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct."

One big problem for men like Mr. Kutilek is the simple fact that he has never seen one word of the "the Scriptures as originally given by God" and it is a well known fact that they do not exist anywhere on this earth today. Mr. Kutilek is professing a faith in something that he KNOWS does not exist, and this clearly leaves him and you (if you believe what he says) with no inspired, complete and inerrant Bible NOW.

Even Mr. Kutilek's own article gives us the proper definition of what the word "mansions" means in John 14:2. In his own article Mr. Kutilek states:

The Oxford English Dictionary give one of the definitions of "mansion" as: "A place where one stops or dwells; place of abode (1386). THIS INCLUDES A SEPARATE DWELLING PLACE, SUCH AS AN APARTMENT IN A LARGE HOUSE (Caps are mine) (1400)...So then, sorting through the historic usages of “mansion” as reported in OED, it is clear that the OED correctly classifies Tyndale’s (and subsequently the KJV’s) use of “mansion” in John 14:2 under the meaning AN APARTMENT IN A LARGE HOUSE. We might say a guest chamber for an honored visitor. I think of the special room prepared by the Shunamite woman and her husband for the prophet Elisha, 2 Kings 4:10; and Samuel Johnson’s visit to the Thrales’ estate, where he more or less remained continuously for twenty years! In the Father’s house, we are honored guests WITH OUR OWN WELL-FURNISHED APARTMENTwith, and we never have to leave because we are home." (End of quote by Doug Kutilek)

The rendering of mansions is not an error at all.

Both Webster's modern dictionary and the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition 2000 give one of the meanings of this word as a dwelling, and abode, any place of residence, a house, an habitation or A SEPARATE DWELLING IN A LARGE HOUSE OR STRUCTURE

The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary 7th New Collegiate Edition 1967 gives one of the definitions of mansions as "A SEPARATE APARTMENT OR LODGING IN A LARGE STRUCTURE."

The Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon Abridged 17th edition, on page 451 lists the meanings of monee as "a staying, abiding, tarrying. 2. a place to stay in, A MANSION.

Not only does the KJB read: "In my Father's house are many mansions", but so also do Tyndale 1525, Daniel Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley's translation 1755, the Revised Version 1881, American Standard Version 1901, NKJV 1982, Douay 1950, Young's literal translation, the modern Hebrew Names Version, World English Bible, Webster's 1833 translation, the KJV 21st Century Version, Green's Modern KJV, and the Third Millenium Bible.



Apartments called mansions

Johnathan Edwards wrote specifically about John 14:2 “in my Father’s house are many mansions”. You can find his writing here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/JE-mansions.htm

In it he clearly states: “There are many mansions in the house of God. By many mansions is meant many seats or places of abode. As it is a king's palace, there are many mansions. Kings' houses are wont to be built very large, with many stately rooms and apartments. So there are many mansions in God's house....as in a king's palace there is not only a mansion or room of state built for the king himself and for his eldest son and heir, but there are many rooms, mansions for all his numerous household, children, attendants and servants.”

Even in today’s modern society almost 400 years after the King James Bible was first printed, we still find modern realtors referring to apartment dwellings within a large single structure as “mansions”. If you have a very nice, luxuriously furnised apartment, it can be referred to as a mansion.

http://www.londonservicedapartments....y/mansions.htm

The Mansions is a superb Edwardian block in a central residential location consisting of 29 differently designed and well furnished apartments, each with its own character and style. Our serviced apartments provide an exceptionally comfortable way of staying in London with all the convenience of your own home.

http://www.mansionsapts.com/

Discover all the comforts of home and then some at the Mansions at Hemingway Apartments located in Johnston, Iowa. You will find luxury living is the standard and not the exception.

http://www.mynewplace.com/apartment/...c-2me300563401

Come home to Mayfair Mansions where you'll find a quiet community nestled in the heart of DC with beautifully landscaped grounds and spacious apartments. We are conveniently located near downtown DC.

http://hotels.lastminute.com.au/acco...-york-mansions

Apartments at York Mansions offers spacious fully self-contained apartments, each with it’s own theme and luxurious décor.

http://www.mansionsintheparkapartments.com/

http://www.rent.com/rentals/illinois...tments/451292/

http://www.mansionsatriverside.com/

http://www.questmansions.com.au/

Doug Kutilek and other King James Bible critics like him have no inerrant Bible to give or recommend to anyone, but rather have set up their own minds and understanding as their ever changing "final authority". Mr. Kutlek blindly rails against alleged "blasphemous errors" that he thinks he has found in our beloved King James Bible, and will not repent nor revise his errant ways even after his arguments have been shown to be empty and vain. One such case is his erroneous view that referring to the Holy Spirit as "it" is an "error bordering on blasphemy".

I have also addressed this issue here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/rom8.html

The King James Holy Bible IS the only true, complete, inspired and inerrant Bible on the earth today. It is always right, and men like Mr. Kutilek have nothing to give you in its place but their own opinions.

"In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

"When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

Will Kinney
  #2  
Old 05-31-2009, 06:38 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Kinney View Post
Mansions

John 14:2 King James Bible: "In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Some modern version proponents object to the use of the word "mansions" as an accurate translation of the word monas in Greek. They say it is better translated as "rooms" (NIV) or "dwelling places" (NASB).

One such Bible critic is Doug Kutilek. He has written an article criticizing the King James Bible's use of the word "mansions" by telling us that it does not convey to the modern reader the true meaning of the Greek word used, and that the KJB's use of mansion supposedly came from the Latin Vulgate. His article can be seen here:

http://sharperiron.org/2009/05/13/a-...hilltop/print/

Keep in mind that Doug Kutilek does not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language is now nor ever has been the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God. His stated doctrinal position is typical of most Bible Agnostics today. His doctrinal statement regarding the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture says: "We believe the Scriptures as originally given by God, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God, infallible, entirely trustworthy, and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct."

One big problem for men like Mr. Kutilek is the simple fact that he has never seen one word of the "the Scriptures as originally given by God" and it is a well known fact that they do not exist anywhere on this earth today. Mr. Kutilek is professing a faith in something that he KNOWS does not exist, and this clearly leaves him and you (if you believe what he says) with no inspired, complete and inerrant Bible NOW.

Even Mr. Kutilek's own article gives us the proper definition of what the word "mansions" means in John 14:2. In his own article Mr. Kutilek states:

The Oxford English Dictionary give one of the definitions of "mansion" as: "A place where one stops or dwells; place of abode (1386). THIS INCLUDES A SEPARATE DWELLING PLACE, SUCH AS AN APARTMENT IN A LARGE HOUSE (Caps are mine) (1400)...So then, sorting through the historic usages of “mansion” as reported in OED, it is clear that the OED correctly classifies Tyndale’s (and subsequently the KJV’s) use of “mansion” in John 14:2 under the meaning AN APARTMENT IN A LARGE HOUSE. We might say a guest chamber for an honored visitor. I think of the special room prepared by the Shunamite woman and her husband for the prophet Elisha, 2 Kings 4:10; and Samuel Johnson’s visit to the Thrales’ estate, where he more or less remained continuously for twenty years! In the Father’s house, we are honored guests WITH OUR OWN WELL-FURNISHED APARTMENTwith, and we never have to leave because we are home." (End of quote by Doug Kutilek)

The rendering of mansions is not an error at all.

Both Webster's modern dictionary and the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition 2000 give one of the meanings of this word as a dwelling, and abode, any place of residence, a house, an habitation or A SEPARATE DWELLING IN A LARGE HOUSE OR STRUCTURE

The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary 7th New Collegiate Edition 1967 gives one of the definitions of mansions as "A SEPARATE APARTMENT OR LODGING IN A LARGE STRUCTURE."

The Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon Abridged 17th edition, on page 451 lists the meanings of monee as "a staying, abiding, tarrying. 2. a place to stay in, A MANSION.

Not only does the KJB read: "In my Father's house are many mansions", but so also do Tyndale 1525, Daniel Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley's translation 1755, the Revised Version 1881, American Standard Version 1901, NKJV 1982, Douay 1950, Young's literal translation, the modern Hebrew Names Version, World English Bible, Webster's 1833 translation, the KJV 21st Century Version, Green's Modern KJV, and the Third Millenium Bible.



Apartments called mansions

Johnathan Edwards wrote specifically about John 14:2 “in my Father’s house are many mansions”. You can find his writing here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/JE-mansions.htm

In it he clearly states: “There are many mansions in the house of God. By many mansions is meant many seats or places of abode. As it is a king's palace, there are many mansions. Kings' houses are wont to be built very large, with many stately rooms and apartments. So there are many mansions in God's house....as in a king's palace there is not only a mansion or room of state built for the king himself and for his eldest son and heir, but there are many rooms, mansions for all his numerous household, children, attendants and servants.”

Even in today’s modern society almost 400 years after the King James Bible was first printed, we still find modern realtors referring to apartment dwellings within a large single structure as “mansions”. If you have a very nice, luxuriously furnised apartment, it can be referred to as a mansion.

http://www.londonservicedapartments....y/mansions.htm

The Mansions is a superb Edwardian block in a central residential location consisting of 29 differently designed and well furnished apartments, each with its own character and style. Our serviced apartments provide an exceptionally comfortable way of staying in London with all the convenience of your own home.

http://www.mansionsapts.com/

Discover all the comforts of home and then some at the Mansions at Hemingway Apartments located in Johnston, Iowa. You will find luxury living is the standard and not the exception.

http://www.mynewplace.com/apartment/...c-2me300563401

Come home to Mayfair Mansions where you'll find a quiet community nestled in the heart of DC with beautifully landscaped grounds and spacious apartments. We are conveniently located near downtown DC.

http://hotels.lastminute.com.au/acco...-york-mansions

Apartments at York Mansions offers spacious fully self-contained apartments, each with it’s own theme and luxurious décor.

http://www.mansionsintheparkapartments.com/

http://www.rent.com/rentals/illinois...tments/451292/

http://www.mansionsatriverside.com/

http://www.questmansions.com.au/

Doug Kutilek and other King James Bible critics like him have no inerrant Bible to give or recommend to anyone, but rather have set up their own minds and understanding as their ever changing "final authority". Mr. Kutlek blindly rails against alleged "blasphemous errors" that he thinks he has found in our beloved King James Bible, and will not repent nor revise his errant ways even after his arguments have been shown to be empty and vain. One such case is his erroneous view that referring to the Holy Spirit as "it" is an "error bordering on blasphemy".

I have also addressed this issue here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/rom8.html

The King James Holy Bible IS the only true, complete, inspired and inerrant Bible on the earth today. It is always right, and men like Mr. Kutilek have nothing to give you in its place but their own opinions.

"In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25

"When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

Will Kinney
Good presentation brother, thank you, that nails it down.

I know Kutilek is around, what happened to Gary Hudson, anyone know?

Grace and peace

Tony
  #3  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:27 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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Will Kinney ".......and that the KJB's use of mansion supposedly came from the Latin Vulgate..............."


John 14:2 in domo Patris mei mansiones multae sunt si quo minus dixissem vobis quia vado parare vobis locum


Actually it did come from Latin, not just the Vulgate. While neither the KJV nor MV's are wrong here it is a big misunderstanding of the definition of mansion 400 years ago vs now.

I'm a little confused Will, I'm pretty sure your taking a KJV defense standpoint obviously. But are you counter-attacking MV's or just defending the use of "mansions" in the KJV? Honest question here since your article changes its tone back and forth.

Yes people do get that word confused or just don't know the proper definition. I have heard this myself in Churches my whole life. I promise you all I'm telling the truth here, having heard this confusion myself preached to near heresy. A pastor going on in his sermon about getting a "big ole mansion in Heaven". This is a good case where KJVO and KJV preferred's need to promote the proper understanding of the English in the KJV.

Last edited by Tmonk; 06-01-2009 at 05:37 AM.
  #4  
Old 06-01-2009, 06:32 AM
Will Kinney's Avatar
Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Location: Colorado, a beautiful state with four distinct seasons; sometimes in the same day!
Posts: 252
Default God's book - the King James Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmonk View Post
Will Kinney ".......and that the KJB's use of mansion supposedly came from the Latin Vulgate..............."


John 14:2 in domo Patris mei mansiones multae sunt si quo minus dixissem vobis quia vado parare vobis locum


Actually it did come from Latin, not just the Vulgate. While neither the KJV nor MV's are wrong here it is a big misunderstanding of the definition of mansion 400 years ago vs now.

I'm a little confused Will, I'm pretty sure your taking a KJV defense standpoint obviously. But are you counter-attacking MV's or just defending the use of "mansions" in the KJV? Honest question here since your article changes its tone back and forth.

Yes people do get that word confused or just don't know the proper definition. I have heard this myself in Churches my whole life. I promise you all I'm telling the truth here, having heard this confusion myself preached to near heresy. A pastor going on in his sermon about getting a "big ole mansion in Heaven". This is a good case where KJVO and KJV preferred's need to promote the proper understanding of the English in the KJV.
Hi M. Mr. Kutilek's article was clearly suggesting that the word 'mansion' came from the Latin and was implying that this was a bad thing.(What a joke), and that the word mansion was not only misunderstood but wrong. I obviously disagree with him.

My response to Kutilek's article was twofold, and you picked up on both. One was to show that the word "mansions" is not wrong, and in fact is preferred. (Luxurious living accommodations in the Father's house, i.e. a mansion - is to be preferred to just an "abode" or a "room".

And secondly, to show that every single King James Bible critic or even those who recommend other versions of the Bible, do not believe in the doctrine nor the reality of an inerrant, inspired and 100% true Holy Bible in ANY language. I suspect you are to be included in this later category, right?

I hope that answers your questions.

Will K
  #5  
Old 06-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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Almost but not quite as far as answers go.

You did not address my last paragraph about people misunderstanding the use of mansion in John 14:2.

Kutilek's article is harsh and a little biased this is true. The use of the Latin word mansion is not at all wrong. But when you acknowledge my last paragraph you will see where he is coming from.

People are NOT preaching about a luxurious living space, they are preaching about your own STAND ALONE MANSION in the modern sense of the word. And therein lies the problem.
  #6  
Old 06-01-2009, 02:42 PM
Will Kinney's Avatar
Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Location: Colorado, a beautiful state with four distinct seasons; sometimes in the same day!
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Default mansion is correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmonk View Post
Almost but not quite as far as answers go.

You did not address my last paragraph about people misunderstanding the use of mansion in John 14:2.

Kutilek's article is harsh and a little biased this is true. The use of the Latin word mansion is not at all wrong. But when you acknowledge my last paragraph you will see where he is coming from.

People are NOT preaching about a luxurious living space, they are preaching about your own STAND ALONE MANSION in the modern sense of the word. And therein lies the problem.

I agree. It is not a stand alone mansion. In fact, the very verse itself goes against this erroneous view. It says: "IN MY FATHERS HOUSE are many mansions". There is only ONE House. Yet many mansions inside this single house. What people need to do is simply pick up any modern dictionary and see what the various meanings of the word "mansion" are, and use the one that makes the most sense in the context of the verse.

Mansions is the better choice than the simple "abode" or "dwelling". My advice to people who misunderstand the verse - Learn the English language better. It's a wonderful and varied language and it just so happens to be the language into which God has placed His complete, inspired and inerrant words today and for the foreseeable future.

Will K
 

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