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Old 07-27-2009, 02:16 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
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Default TITLES: "elders"/"bishops"/"pastors"

Aloha all,

I have been following the Thread "Pastors/Shepherds???", and instead of continuing on with the personal preferences, hypothesis, and speculations, I thought I would try to get at "the heart of the matter" - "TITLES" and their use in the New Testament:

ELDERS/BISHOPS/PASTORS
Quote:
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
{I wonder how many of todays Fundamentalist “pastors” measure up to the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ - given in the Scriptures above.}

The number of times the word “pastors” occurs in the New Testament: {1 time in 1 verse}
Quote:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
{This is the only place in the entire New Testament where the word “pastor” shows up, and the word is rendered PLURAL (i.e. “pastors”) – NOT SINGULAR (i.e. “pastor”). There is NO place in the entire New Testament where a mere man is CALLED by the TITLE - “pastor”, i.e. pastor Peter; pastor James; pastor John; or pastor Paul!}

The number of times the word “bishop” occurs in the New Testament: {3 times in 3 verses}
Quote:
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
{There is NO place in the entire New Testament where a mere man is CALLED by the TITLE - “bishop”, i.e. bishop Peter; bishop James; bishop John; or bishop Paul!}

The number of times the word “Bishop” occurs in the New Testament: {1 time in 1 verse}
Quote:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{The Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY SHEPHERD and BISHOP of the souls of HIS saints! Anyone claiming to take the Lord Jesus Christ’s rightful place in His church (which “He purchased” with “His Blood”) is a THIEF and a ROBBER [John 10:8], or a WOLF [John 10:12]}

The number of times the word “elder”/“elders” occurs in the New Testament: {69 times in 68 verses}

The words “elder”/“elders” occur 26 times in 26 verses in the Four Gospels: {every single time in reference to Jewish “elders” – NOT “elders” in the church of God.}

The number of times the words “elder”/“elders” occurs in the New Testament {minus the Book of Revelation} in reference to “leaders” in the church of God: {20 times in 19 verses}

The word “elder” (singular) in reference to a “leader” in the church of God:
Quote:
1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; {A reference to a man’s “position” in the church of God – not a reference to AGE.}

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. {A reference to a man’s “position” in the church of God – not a reference to AGE.}

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: {Peter calls himself an “elder” (he identifies his “position” in the church of God as just another “elder” amongst several elders.) – he does NOT refer to himself as “bishop” or “pastor” – I wonder WHY?}

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. {I have included this verse in reference to a “leader” in the church of God, but it is more likely in reference to AGE – not “position”.}

2 John 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; {I have included this verse in reference to a “leader” in the church of God, but it is more likely in reference to AGE – not “position”.}

3 John 1:1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth. {I have included this verse in reference to a “leader” in the church of God, but it is more likely in reference to AGE – not “position”.}
The word “elders” (plural) in reference to “leaders” in the church of God:
Quote:
Acts 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. {Why isn’t the word “pastors” used?}

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. {Why isn’t the word “pastors” used?}

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. {WHERE are the “pastors”?}

Acts 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. {WHERE are the “pastors”?}

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. {WHERE are the “pastors”?}

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: {WHERE are the “pastors”?}
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

{These verses settle the matter of “TITLES” in the church of God for Bible believers. Practically everyone (with the exception of heretics or false teachers) agrees that there are no longer “apostles” in the
church of God - so WHO does that leave us with? According to the Holy Scriptures we are left with just – elders with the whole church”, i.e. “elders and brethren”. WHAT HAPPENED to the word “pastors”? WHERE is the word “pastors”? It is NOT there because NO ONE in the New Testament ever CALLED an “elder” in the church of God - “pastor” – NO NOT ONCE! So WHY the desperate effort to assign the TITLE “Undershepherd” to a “pastor”? WHY the continual straining and stretching to give a mere man a “TITLE” that he is NOT “entitled” to?}

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. {WHERE are the “pastors”?}

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. {WHAT HAPPENED to the “pastors”?}

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. {WHAT HAPPENED to the “pastors”?}

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. {WHERE are the “pastors”?}

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: {WHY are they not called - “pastors”?}

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: {WHAT HAPPENED to the “pastors”?}

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: {WHY NOT “pastors”?}
{All of these verses are clearly in reference to a “position of leadership” held by certain men in the church of God. The Scriptural TITLE given in reference to these men is “elders” or “elder”. WHY is it that the TITLEpastor” is used to describe the “position of leadership” in the church of God in almost all “Christian” churches today - when the TITLEelder” (or “elders”) is used in the Holy Scriptures 20 times to 1 when referring to the men in “positions of leadership” in the early (apostolic) church? Hmmm?}

bishop = “The Office” held by elders in the church of God [1 Timothy 3:1].

pastor/teacher/minister/preacher = A “title” given to an “elder” describing the type (or kind) of “work” that is performed by an “elder”. [Ephesians 4:11-12]

elder = The Scriptural “Title” of the “leadership position” held by men in the church of God. [The 19 previous verses cited.]

{And so, according to the Scriptures, we have “elders” – men who hold the Scriptural “Office” of “Bishop”; who are to be “pastors”, “teachers”, “ministers”, “witnesses”, “Ambassadors for Christ”, “all things to all men”, etc.; who’s Scriptural TITLE is “elder”; and who, when being directly addressed, are to be called “brother”, NOT by ANY TITLE! We are NOT supposed to address Christian men in positions of authority with TITLES: i.e. YOUR HOLINESS; REVEREND; BISHOP; MASTER; PASTOR; DOCTOR; ETC.; ETC.; - after all, aren’t we all supposed to be “brethren”? [Mathew 23:8] What a huge DIFFERENCE between the make-up (administration) and practice of most of today’s so-called “Fundamentalist” and “Evangelical” churches and the early churches illustrated in the Holy Scriptures!}

The only example, in the Bible, where ONLY ONE MAN is the “head” of a New Testament church is given in 3 John 1:9-12:
Quote:
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.


11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. {According to the Bible – what Diotrephes was doing was EVIL!}
12 Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.
With the exception of Diotrephes, there is NOT one single example of a New Testament church in the Holy Scriptures with ONLY ONE “pastor”! Every single church mentioned had a plurality of “elders” (i.e. more than one man). Peter was NOT the “pastor” of the church of God at Jerusalem, and neither were James or John – in addition to being Apostles, they were “elders” of the church of God. That is, they, along with other men, were “equals” as “elders” in the church. Peter was NOT the “head pastor”, with James and John as “assistant pastors”! That’s NOT how the Lord set up His church “leadership”. The “leadership position” in the church was to be held by several “elders” (of equal authority) – NOT A SINGLE “pastor”! {Does any of this “resonate” with anyone? Does any of this mean anything to a genuine Bible believer?

Can’t you see that if there is a “plurality” of “elders” in a church (with equal authority), that it will be less likely that ONE MAN will become the center of attention - rather than the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy word? Can’t you see that with several “elders”, (of equal authority) that those in authority (in God’s church) will have to learn to “get along”, rather than have ONE MANrun the show”? Isn’t it obvious, by the “fawning”, “adulation”, and “glorying” in men and their “works” today, that God had a “reason” for multiple “elders” as “leaders” in His church – rather than just ONE MAN, who is elevated and honored by many as THE UNDER-SHEPHERD, rather than just an “elder” (amongst several) who is supposed to be a SERVANT of the Most High God – NOT some kind of KING!
Quote:
Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety.

Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellers there is safety.
Let’s look at the only verse in the New Testament with the word “pastors” in it:
Quote:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; {WHAT did He give some “pastors and teachers” FOR?}
12 FOR the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Is this the kind of “work” that the modern day “pastor” is engaged in? In most of the larger churches today the “pastor” doesn’t even know the names of 90% of the people who attend “his” church! The “work of the ministry” is NOT just about being a “Soul-winner” and a “church builder”. The church of God is NOT a “business” - headed up by a talented and successful CEO. The church of God was NOT meant to be “HEADED UP” by ONLY ONE MAN - a “pastor”, who may be an articulate, or eloquent and persuasive speaker. The church of God is a “Living Organism”, who’s ONLY HEAD is in Heaven. The Lord has entrusted the spiritual care and feeding of His saints to men who are supposed to “take care of the church of God” (God’s saints) [1 Timothy 3:5]; men who are to be “ensamples to the flock” – NOTlord” it over them [1 Peter 5:3]; men who are supposed to be “helpers” of the brethren’s “joy” - NOT exercise “dominionover their faith [2 Corinthians 1:24]!
Quote:
1 Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Notice in Ephesians 4:11 the Scriptures state “He GAVE” and in 1 Corinthians 12:28 – the Scriptures say “God hath SET”. In Ephesians 4:11 the Lord is emphasizing “the work of the ministry” (and names the kind of men who perform that “work”), in 1 Corinthians 12:28 He is emphasizing the order of the leadership positions held by men in the church (God “SET”). Please notice the omission of the word “pastor”. An “elder” holds the “office” of a “bishop”, and must be “apt to teach” i.e. he is a “teacher”; he must also “take care of the church of God”, i.e. he is a “pastor”; he must also minister to the saints i.e. he is a “minister”; he must also “preach the word”, i.e. he is a “preacher”. {Check out Titus 1:5 where Paul instructs Titus to - "SET IN ORDER the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee". Did you notice the word "SET"? (The same word that Paul used in 1 Corinthians 12:28) WHY didn't Paul say "ordain pastors"? Hmmm?}

God uses imperfect men and the imperfect churches they set up. He blesses those who preach and teach His words, but his blessing is due to His word – NOT because of the flawed men who preach and teach it. To give credit to a mere man for the salvation of souls or the building and growth of the church of God is to steal God’s Glory! It is Christ Who died for us; it’s the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin; it’s the Father that draws men; it’s by the hearing of the word of God that men believe. WHAT does that make us? We are just unworthy servants; we are just undeserving sinners who, if it were not for God’s Grace, would be headed for our deserved end (Hell). WHO are we that we dare to take credit (or give credit to others) for what God hath wrought?

WHY have nearly all men involved in “positions of authority” in nearly all of the so-called “Christian” churches (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and modern day Fundamentalist and Evangelicals, etc.) chosen to use “TITLES” (some Scriptural and others not) to distinguish themselves from ordinary Christians? Hmmm?

WHY have most of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches chosen the TITLE “pastor” rather than “elder” when referring to men who are in a position of authority in the church of God? (remember - 20 to 1?) The TITLE “elder” does NOT SEPARATE the "leadership" from the brethren in the church of God. The TITLE “elder” does NOT convey the impression that the man (that is an “elder”) is any DIFFERENT from ordinary Christians. Could it be that the use of “TITLES” within Fundamentalist’s circles is meant to SEPARATE “pastors”, “preachers”, “ministers”, “doctors”, etc. from ordinary Christians, i.e. a “clergy” vs. “laity” setup? {Check out what the Lord Jesus Christ had to say [Matthew Chapter 23] about those men (in His time) that loved “to be seen of men”; loved the “uppermost rooms”; loved the “chief seats”; loved “the greetings in the markets”; and loved “to be called of men, {"TITLES"!} Rabbi, Rabbi”! - i.e. “Master”}

The TITLE “pastor” is used (by many Christians today) to imply that the man who holds that “title” is an “UNDERSHEPHERD” – in line next to the “CHIEF SHEPHERD”. The TITLE “elder” does NOT imply that “kind of authority” whatsoever! After all – what’s so “cool” about the TITLE “elder”? But a “pastor” – now that’s “a horse of another color”! The TITLE “pastor” can “MEANMANY THINGS to many people (as has been demonstrated in the Thread "Pastors/Shepherds???"). The TITLE “elder” may imply age, knowledge, discernment, understanding, and wisdom, but it is extremely difficult to misconstrue the meaning of the TITLE “elder” to mean an “UNDER-SHEPHERD”!

This “TITLE” business is all about SEPARATING the “CLERGY” from the “LAITY” – it’s all about SEPARATING the “leadership” in the church of God from the rest of the brethren! There is ONLY ONE SHEPHERD. The entire body of Christ (His true church) is made up entirely of His SHEEP! There are NO UNDER-SHEPHERDS! There are NO JUNIOR-SHEPHERDS! There is NO CLERGY/LAITY setup in the church of God! Check out what God has to say about this issue:
Quote:
Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
“Elders” are just SHEEP - other than holding a position of spiritual authority in the church of God, there is NO DIFFERENCE between “bishops/elders/pastors” and the rest of the church – after all: “all ye are brethren” [Matthew 23:8]! This attempt to glorify men rather than God is “CARNAL” – Paul said so:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?


1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth;
but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
It is time for all of us to Glory in the Author and Finisher of our faith, and to honor His Holy word, and stop glorying in men and their works!
Quote:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
The church of God is NOT all about those who have been gifted by God – the “elders” the “preacher”, the “pastor”, the “minister”, the “teacher”, the “evangelist”, etc. And it certainly is NOT about the extra-scriptural positions of: the board of Deacons; the board of directors; the assistant pastor; the youth pastor; the Sunday school superintendent; the Sunday school teacher; the bus route drivers; the psychological counselors; etc.; etc. The church of God is all about our Saviour God and His Holy word, and if we ever lose sight of this simple truth, we are on the road to apostasy!

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

2 Corinthians 10:17
But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Philippians 4:20
Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
  #2  
Old 07-27-2009, 03:44 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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See there. I learn something new all the time. Very good and thorough study Pas...oops, Brother George. I especially connect with these thoughts:

Quote:
Can’t you see that if there is a “plurality” of “elders” in a church (with equal authority), that it will be less likely that ONE MAN will become the center of attention - rather than the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy word? Can’t you see that with several “elders”, (of equal authority) that those in authority (in God’s church) will have to learn to “get along”, rather than have ONE MAN “run the show”? Isn’t it obvious, by the “fawning”, “adulation”, and “glorying” in men and their “works” today, that God had a “reason” for multiple “elders” as “leaders” in His church – rather than just ONE MAN, who is elevated and honored by many as THE UNDER-SHEPHERD, rather than just an “elder” (amongst several) who is supposed to be a SERVANT of the Most High God – NOT some kind of KING!
Quote:
WHY have most of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches chosen the TITLE “pastor” rather than “elder” when referring to men who are in a position of authority in the church of God? (remember - 20 to 1?) The TITLE “elder” does NOT SEPARATE the "leadership" from the brethren in the church of God. The TITLE “elder” does NOT convey the impression that the man (that is an “elder”) is any DIFFERENT from ordinary Christians. Could it be that the use of “TITLES” within Fundamentalist’s circles is meant to SEPARATE “pastors”, “preachers”, “ministers”, “doctors”, etc. from ordinary Christians, i.e. a “clergy” vs. “laity” setup?
The title "Pastor" does have a tendency to make you think you are a little better, more spiritual, a little step higher, and right under the Chief Shepherd in the pecking order. I know from my personal experience...
  #3  
Old 07-27-2009, 08:10 PM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
 
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In our village (barangay), common people will call anyone who who preaches a "pastor". If they hear a deacon preach, they would call him "pastor". If they hear one of our young men preach, they would call him "pastor". If they see a male church member wearing his shirt tucked in and holding a Bible in his hand, they would call him "pastor". Even when we play basketball, a faithful church member with a head that looks almost bald is called "pastor".

I guess, a "pastor" is someone who preaches and looks like a pastor.
  #4  
Old 07-27-2009, 08:38 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Sammy is right. they have been calling me pastor since I came to the Philippines.
  #5  
Old 07-27-2009, 10:18 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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There IS a man (singular) in a "leadership position" (a biblical church office) in I Timothy 3:1-7. There is only ONE bishop as opposed to plural "deacons" referred to in verses 8-13 of the same chapter. And this ONE MAN (that is to "take care of the church of God") is likened to A man RULING over his own house...we all know that there is to be just ONE MAN ruling his own house, not a plurality of leaders in the home. Again, this man is correlated to someone who RULES, not just another "ordinary Christian."

Those that are over us in the Lord are NOT to be treated like "ordinary Christians," according to Paul. We are "to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake." (I Thes. 5:12-13) And the "elders that RULE well" are to "be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." (I Tim. 5:17)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #6  
Old 07-27-2009, 10:39 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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A great study, brother George.

A quote from you from the Church Governance thread:
Quote:
The New Testament church is a BODY with THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as its only HEAD. Anyone claiming to be that head (pastors-elders-bishops-etc.) are PRETENDERS and USURPERS and THIEVES and ROBBERS!
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460
  #7  
Old 07-27-2009, 10:47 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "TITLES: "elders"/"bishops"/"pastors""

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
In our village (barangay), common people will call anyone who who preaches a "pastor". If they hear a deacon preach, they would call him "pastor". If they hear one of our young men preach, they would call him "pastor". If they see a male church member wearing his shirt tucked in and holding a Bible in his hand, they would call him "pastor". Even when we play basketball, a faithful church member with a head that looks almost bald is called "pastor".

I guess, a "pastor" is someone who preaches and looks like a pastor.
chette777
Quote:
"Sammy is right. they have been calling me pastor since I came to the Philippines."
Aloha brothers Sammy and Chette,

I am not too picky uni or such a "gnatstrainer" that I object to the title "pastor" - my whole point is that some people on the Forum were attempting to ELEVATE an "elder" to the position of "UNDER-SHEPHERD" based on the use of the word "pastors"; and all I am trying to do is point out that they had better be extremely careful in their attempts to glorify men, because the term "pastor" may not be the appropriate Scriptural word to use to describe the Scriptural "position" of an "elder" in the church of God.

I didn't even point out that the only time that the word "pastors" is used, it is used in conjunction with "teachers", so that if someone wants to use "pastor" as THE "TITLE" for an "elder" in the church - the proper Scriptural "Title" would have to be "pastor and teacher", NOT simply "pastor".
Quote:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
The Holy Scriptures testify that: He gave "some, apostles"; He gave "some, prophets"; He gave "some, evangelists; and He gave "some, pastors and teachers". Please notice that He did NOT just give "pastors" (alone) - He gave "some, pastors and teachers" (combined). If this is the proper Scriptural "Title" for an "elder" in the church of God, then it should be used in conjunction with the word "teachers" - which would make for a strange "TITLE", but if this is a "title" that describes the kind of "work" that an "elder" does in the church of God, then it makes sense.

Just one more reason for Christians not to get "carried away" with only one word, in only one verse, and take it to an extreme and try to "prove" a "private opinion" and twist and wrest the words of God, and try to make them "mean" something other than what they say!

I grow weary of all of the "speculation", "hypothesis", and "guess work" of some of the Christians on the Forum. If they do not know what they are talking about - WHY are they posting their "private opinions" on spiritual matters that are of such great importance?

The ELEVATION of a mere man (a saved sinner) ABOVE the rest of his Christian brethren is a SIN! And the MAGNIFICATION of a mere man's "position" in the church of God to that of an "UNDER-SHEPHERD" is SIN! And if some "Christians" support either one of these pernicious teachings, they are either ignorant (in which case they shouldn't be commenting) or they have a "personal agenda" in trying to make some man (a saved sinner) something more than he really is!

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
  #8  
Old 07-27-2009, 10:54 PM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
 
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You're right, Brother George!
Some Bible school graduate and some pastors here would feel offended when you call them "Brother".
Some of them would also look down on our night class Bible school graduates. They'd call them "half-ripe" preachers!

I'd call those title-conscious reverends and doctors as "overcooked"!
  #9  
Old 07-28-2009, 03:00 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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George you are right.

I read the first part of the first post of the shepherds pastors and stopped reading and said I would not get involved in that thread. there are a few threads I am not reading nor participating in.
  #10  
Old 07-28-2009, 08:49 AM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Bro. Chette,
Quote:
Chette said: I read the first part of the first post of the shepherds pastors and stopped reading and said I would not get involved in that thread. there are a few threads I am not reading nor participating in.
You are probably very wise in that.
It was a lot of hypothesis and comparison, but I finally had to admit Brandon was right...there had to be a reason a pastor/teacher was never actually called a shepherd. I admitted I was wrong.

I do so wish that people would be a bit gracious in their correcting as no one can learn anything if they are blasted the moment they make a mistake, speak out of turn, or understand the Bible incorrectly.

Quote:
Pr 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Too often grievous words are spoken and the person loses sight of the topic and issue at hand and hones in on the grievous words.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that any comments I made on that thread, I conceded in the very end
 

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