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  #161  
Old 02-16-2009, 02:00 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Henry Ainsworth

Hi Folks,

One writer who is very good on the purity of God's word should be understood as not using Psalm 12:7 for the preservation of the words of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ainsworth
Henry Ainsworth, (1571–1622) was an English Nonconformist clergyman and scholar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=21CVmTzrqhEC&pg=PA416
Henry Ainsworth.. the Psalms were printed in 1612


Here is an how Henry Ainsworth is referenced. What is said is correct, yet incomplete in a preservation discussion, since Ainsworth was one of the few who in that period who we have found who clearly took a "persons" view. (Peter Van Kleeck may mention that in his paper.)

http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl040003.htm
Psalm 12:7 and Bible Preservation

Consider some excerpts from this excellent study:

The Translational And Exegetical Rendering Of Psalm 12:7 Primarily Considered In The Churchly Tradition Of The 16Th And 17Th Centuries And Its Expression In The Reformation English Bibles: THE GENIUS OF AMBIGUITY, By Peter Van Kleeck ...

This essay will show the diversity of the textual and exegetical tradition of Psalm 12:6-7 ... By so doing, the inadequacy of modern renditions of Psalm 12:7 will be exposed...

Annotations by Henry Ainsworth, 1626. Briggs commends Ainsworth as the "prince of Puritan commentators" and that his commentary on the Psalms is a "monument of learning." ... Ainsworth states that "the sayings" [of Psalm 12:7] are "words" or "promises" that are "tried" or "examined" "as in a fire." He cross references the reader to Psalm 18:31; 119:140; and Proverbs 30:5, each reference having to do with the purity of the word.

This is accurate, the verses I put below, however since the context is also preservation this should be referenced.


http://books.google.com/books?id=5vADAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA433
Ainsworth, Henry. Annotations on the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses; the Psalms of David; and the Song of Solomon. London: Blackie, 1843.

Ver. 8.—PRESERVE HIM,] That ˇs, every one of them : so before in the end of tbe sixth verse, and often in the scripture, like sudden change of number may be observed. It may also be read prayer-wise, ' keep them, preserve him.' The Gr. changeth person also, saying, "will keep us, and preserve us." FROM THIS GENERATION] That is, from the men of this generation ; as when Christ said. ' Whereto shall I liken this generation?' Matt. xi:16, he meant, ' Whereto shall I liken the men of this generation?' Luke tu. 31. The like may be seen in Matt. xi. IS. 42, compared with Luke xi:31. The original word Dor, that is, ' generation, race, or 'age,' hath the signification of durance, or durable dwelling and abiding, Ps. Ixxxiv:II, and so noteth the whole age or time ' that i man dureth in this world,' Eccl. i. 4, and so consequently for 'a multitude of men that lire together in any age,' as here, and Deut, i. 35, and in many other places.


Here are the verse references.

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=27
Psalm 12:7 - Commentaries


Psalms 18:31
As for God, his way is perfect:
the word of the LORD is tried:
he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
For who is God save the LORD?
or who is a rock save our God?

Psalms 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure:
he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-16-2009 at 02:06 AM.
  #162  
Old 02-17-2009, 12:58 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Matthew Poole - Psalm 12 commentary

Hi Folks,

Today, a treat. We found the Matthew Poole Commentary ! Considering the significance we will place in the whole chapter online. Ok, this is in Brandon's SwordSearcher as well, oops I had forgotten to check ! . Matthew Poole is very major and very strong, he was a primary source for many later commentators and his split interpretation of the preservation gives a good window on one common Reformation Bible understanding. In verse seven there is quite a bit more than in our earlier abbreviated referencing.

http://www.matthewpoole.net/
The Matthew Poole Project

http://www.matthewpoole.net/aboutBio.html
Matthew Poole, M.A. Born A.D. 1624. – Died A.D. 1679.

.... During the fourteen years in which he was a parochial minister, he is described as having been a most faithful, diligent, and affectionate preacher: laborious in his studies to the highest degree, which his stupendous work, entitled, Synopsis Criticorum, in 5 vols. folio, amply testifies. This undertaking occupied his attention for ten years, and is a monument, not only of his extensive reading, but of his critical acumen, and sobriety of judgment.


Strong and sweet enough to include the whole chapter, with our pure Bible verses preceding.

=====================================

Psalm 12

To the Chief Musician Upon Shiminith. A Psalm of David

The same title is prefixed to Ps 6:1-10. This Psalm was composed in the time and upon the occasion of Saul's ill government, and his persecution of David, and other good men who favoured him.

David, being destitute of human comfort, craveth help of God, Ps 12:1. He exclaims against flattering and deceitful tongues, Ps 12:2; and comforteth himself with God's judgment on them, Ps 12:3-4; and assureth himself of his tried mercies to the needy, Ps 12:5-8.

Ps 12:1

Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.


Help; or, save me and other good men from the subtlety and rage of wicked men. Saul will not help us, and other men cannot help; therefore it is a fit season for thee to help.

The godly; or, kind, or merciful, as this word is oft used, as Ps 30:5; 31:24; 86:2: q.d. I and my friends are sorely and causelessly persecuted, banished from our homes and friends, and, which is worst of all, from God's sanctuary, and yet few or none pity us; all mercy and humanity is lost.

The faithful fail; men have lost not only serious piety, but even common honesty, in their words and dealings with men.

Ps 12:2

They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.


Vanity; or, falsehood, which is a vain thing, and wants the solidity of truth.

With a double heart; pretending one heart, and that they speak from a kind and upright heart, when they really have another, even a cruel and deceitful heart.

Ps 12:3

The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:


Or great things, or great words, either bragging or threatening what they will do, and what great things they will effect, to wit, by their tongues, as they themselves explain it in the next verse, which they will use so cunningly and powerfully, that they shall not need to use their hands, or strike a stroke.

Ps 12:4

Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

With our tongue will we prevail, by raising and spreading slanders and evil reports concerning him, whereby both Saul will be highly and implacably enraged against David, and the hearts of the people alienated from him; which was indeed a very likely way to prevail against, him, and that by their tongues only.

Our lips are our own, i.e. at our own dispose to speak what we please.

Who is lord over us; who can control or restrain us? This was not the language of their mouths, for they were Israelites, that owned a God above them, and they were subjects of Saul; but the language of their actions. Scripture oft tells us not only what men do actually say, but what they would say if they durst, or what their actions mean, as Ps 94:7; Mal 1:12; 4:6; 2:17. They take as great a liberty in their speech as if they believed there was no God or man superior to them; because neither the fear of God, nor the reverence of men, can keep them from speaking whatsoever they please, or what they suppose makes for their interest.

Ps 12:5

For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

For the oppression of the poor; oppressed by Saul through the instigation and artifices of his fawning courtiers.

Now; speedily, sooner than they imagine or expect. From him that puffeth at him, i.e. from him that despiseth him, and hopeth to destroy him with a puff of breath, or a parcel of words. See this phrase Ps 10:5. Only there it is construed with beth, and here with lamed; which may make some difference. And the supplement in our translation may seem to be large, and not necessary. And the place is and may be otherwise rendered according to the Hebrew, without any such large supplement, I will set him (to wit, the needy last mentioned; so it is an ellipsis of the pronoun, which is most frequent) in safety: he (to wit, the Lord, mentioned before) shall speak (as this verb signifies, Pr 6:19; 14:5; 19:5, 9, i.e. shall speak comfortably, by a synecdoche; or shall speak plainly, as this verb is used, Pr 12:17; Hab 2:3) to him, i.e. to the needy here mentioned. Or, he, i.e. God, shall speak (to wit, in his wrath, as it is expressed, Ps 2:5) to him, who is the cause of his oppression, of whom he speaks Ps 12:3-4. Or, shall puff at him, as he used to do at his enemies, Ps 10:5.

Ps 12:6

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.


Pure; or, sincere; without the least mixture of vanity or falsehood; and therefore shall infallibly be fulfilled. This he seems to add to answer an objection which might arise in some men's minds concerning what was last said. You tell us, The, Lord saith, I will set him in safety, &c.; but saying and doing are two things. They are so indeed in men, who oft speak rashly what they cannot perform, and deceitfully what they never intend: but all God's words are pure from all manner of dross; from all folly, or fraud, or uncertainty; he is holy and true in all his doctrines, threatenings, predictions, and promises.

Tried in a furnace of earth, i.e. made of such earth or clay as was proper for and then usual in that work. See 1Ki 7:46.

Ps 12:7

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Thou shalt keep them; either, 1. The poor and needy, Ps 12:5, from the crafts and malice of this crooked and perverse generation of men, and for ever. Or, 2. Thy words or promises last mentioned, Ps 12:6. These thou wilt observe and keep (as these two verbs commonly signify) both now, and from this generation for ever, i.e. Thou wilt not only keep thy promise to me in preserving me, and advancing me to the throne, but also to my posterity from generation to generation.

Ps 12:8

The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

The wicked walk on every side; which phrase may note, 1. Their great numbers; they fill all places. 2. Their freedom and safety; they are not restrained nor punished, but go about boldly and securely whither they please. 3. Their proficiency and success, which is sometimes signified by this verb, as Ge 26:13; 1Sa 2:21; Isa 40:31. They grow worse and worse, and prosper in and by their wickedness. 4. Their incessant and unwearied industry in doing mischief to good men. Compare 1Pe 5:8. And this is very fitly here added, as another argument to prevail with God to arise to help his poor people who are oppressed by wicked men.

The vilest men, Heb. vilenesses, i.e. all manner of wickedness, lying and slandering, profaneness; oppression, cruelty, and the like; or, vile persons, the abstract being put for the concrete, which is frequent, as pride, Ps 36:11, for a proud man, and many such like; both comes to one, vile persons and vile practices were both advanced and encouraged through Saul's misgovernment, whereby all the foundations were destroyed, as he complained, Ps 11:3. The Hebrew word zolel (whence this zuloth comes) signifies first a glutton or drunkard, as De 21:20; Pr 23:21, and thence any vile person, as Jer 15:19; La 1:11.

http://evanglibrary.org.uk/members/c...psa-Index.html
Book of Psalms - The Argument


Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-17-2009 at 01:11 PM.
  #163  
Old 02-18-2009, 04:02 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Posts: 462
Default Warren Wiersbe- Gods' Word preserved & lasting

Hi Folks,

Warren W. Wiersbe is one of the recent commentators who understands the contrast between God's words and men's words being the basic theme of the Psalm .. and the application of Psalm 12:7 to the preservation of God's word. Thus, a full "preserved words" interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_W._Wiersbe
Warren Wendel Wiersbe is an American pastor and a prolific writer of Christian literature, born on May 16, 1929 in East Chicago. ... He has been pastor of three churches, including Chicago's Moody Church from 1971 to 1978. At Moody Church he took up radio ministry and between 1984 and 1990 he was general director of the Back to the Bible radio broadcasting network.


http://www.biblestudyaids.org/member.../ot-Index.html
http://raysdevotional.blogspot.com/2.../psalm-12.html
With the Word: The Chapter-by-Chapter Bible Handbook - Warren W. Wiersbe (1993)

God’s words ( 6–8 ). God’s Word is pure, proved, and preserved, and you can depend on it. So much of what man says is cheap and temporary, but God’s Word is like pure silver that is valuable and lasting. Let your words be controlled by His Word and God will make your words valuable ( Prov. 10:20 ; 25:11 ).


Proverbs 10:20
The tongue of the just is as choice silver:
the heart of the wicked is little worth.

Proverbs 25:11
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
  #164  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:06 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default George Vicesimus Wigram - His words are pure, and kept

Hi Folks,

Our next commentator is from the 1800s, with a strong Hebrew and hymn background. And although he does not write much on the psalm he clearly interprets consistent with the words of God being kept and preserved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wigram
George Vicesimus Wigram (1805 - 1879)

Wigram had a keen interest in the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible, which was of great interest to the emerging Brethren Assemblies. In 1839, after years of work and financial investment, he published The Englishman’s Greek and English Concordance to the New Testament followed in 1843 by The Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance to the Old Testament. ... Wigram contributed to the hymnology of the Brethren assemblies in a number of ways. He edited the anthology Hymns for the Poor of the Flock (1838).

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/wigram/ps.html
(1869) Wigram - A Study of the Psalms.

Ps. 12: 1 Cry to Jehovah for the pious, 2 as before the double-hearted; 35 faith in him against the boaster; He will undertake; 6 His words are pure, and kept from that race and the wicked around.


Shalom,
Steven Avery
  #165  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:15 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Posts: 462
Default Woodrow Michael Kroll - dual interpretation

Hi Folks,

Next we include a dual interpretation, with the commentary being reasonable (especially considering that it is of recent days) and the rest of the commentary chapter can be read online. This one I actually have next to me in the closest bookcase, I keep it handy . (Not to give it a high recommendation, especially as it is published by Thomas Nelson. I bought it years ago and it is generally superior to other modern commentaries.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_M._Kroll
Woodrow Michael Kroll (born October 21, 1944) is the president and Bible teacher for the international Back to the Bible radio and television ministry

http://www.biblestudyaids.org/member...kbc-Index.html
King James Bible Commentary - Psalms Commentary by Woodrow Michael Kroll (1994) .. other editions 1983, 2000, many commentators on various books

6–8 . The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

What a contrast between the vain words of men and the pure words of God. While the words of men are vanity, the words of God are purity; while men speak with flattering lips, God speaks with tested lips.

The words of God and the Word of God have passed through the furnace of persecution, philosophical disputation, scientific reasoning, and literary criticism; but they have not lost one precious ounce of their purity. God preserves and keeps those who are oppressed and needy because He keeps His word. Even when The wicked walk on every side, as a result of vile men being in positions of authority, we may still trust the Word of God, knowing that “… all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” ( Rom 8:28 ).

As a reminder, the opponents of the King James Bible at times make the false claim that the "words" interpretations is oddball, or of recent King James Bible only heritage, or they will do a rant as we saw above.

Clearly the natural flow of the verse, the theme of the Psalm and Bible consistency all are very strong for the "words" interpretation. And we see that there are lots of commentators and writers who recognize this simple truth.

So far, we have barely quoted what we would consider even a single King James Bible defender in all the commentary references. One article by Jack Moorman pointed out that there was far more acceptance of the "words" understanding in recent commentaries. And this is true when compared to all the commentaries beginning around the time of the revision, or even somewhat earlier. However it is better to see this as a "U" .. lots of "words" support in the Reformation Bible through till 1800, a dip in the 1800s through early 1900s and a resurgence of understanding today.

Yes, post 1800s lists are planned (and an update of the 1800s list as well). Also an index of sorts. Hopefully this thread can be an easy-to-read-and-use resource for researchers and writers defending the pure and perfect word of God.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-18-2009 at 10:23 AM.
  #166  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:12 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Default Doug V. Heck -

Hi Folks,

Doug V. Heck has a sensible understanding of the basic theme of the Psalm, emphasizing the purity of the Bible and the words of God. We can see his interpretation as a split interpretation where "the promises of God could be totally depended upon" is a reference to Psalm 12:7a.

http://www.grace4u.org/oldtest/psalms/psalm12.htm
Doug V. Heck - The Lying of Men and The Truth of God

cf. Psalm 12:6-8

The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver tested in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

In contrast to the or empty statements of the wicked who flatter from a double heart, are undefiled or kept free from any dross. Nothing in the promises of the Lord are uttered from a double mind! (cf. Psalm 18:30; 119:140) Like purified like a clay furnace for testing metals to burn off the dross and impurities, the words come from the mouth of God without meanings.

The Bible has passed through the furnace of persecution, literary criticism, philosophic doubt, and scientific discovery, and has lost nothing but those human interpretations which clung to it as alloy to precious ore. The experience of saints has tried it in every conceivable manner, but not a single doctrine or promise has been consumed in the most excessive heat. (cf. Spurgeon, p. 143)

Because the promises of God could be totally depended upon, David acknowledges the deliverance of the oppressed, who are guarded forever! The term is "from their contemporaries."

And this regardless of the fact that during David's time, it seemed as if the whole leadership had departed from the covenant with God .

http://www.gccoftulsa.net/resources/...tInthWorld.htm
Pastor Doug V. Heck is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute in Chicago (B.A.) and The Master's Seminary (M.DIV), where Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. is President. There he graduated Magna Cum Laude and served as President of the Student Government. He has also pursued further graduate level studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Graduate School in Chicago and is currently in the D.Min. degree program at The Master’s Seminary, with an emphasis on Expository Preaching. Pastor Heck has also served as Director of Tulsa-based Bible Teaching Services and Christian Counseling Ministry. Doug has been the teacher of The Quest of the New Testament radio program, formerly heard on KCFO for 7 years, having served as Senior Pastor for 18 years and in full time ministry for 24 years.


Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-20-2009 at 06:17 AM.
  #167  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:30 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Wycliffe Bible Commentary - Kyle Yates

Hi Folks,

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary is considered conservative and Reformation-oriented. The Psalms section is by Kyle Monroe Yates Jr. (1895-1975) author of Essentials of Biblical Hebrew (1938), a book used as a reference source today by Thomas Strouse and others.

This commentary only has a smidgen about Psalm 12, yet again the emphasis is sensible with "he will perform" referring to Psalm 12:7a. "What he has promised, he will perform" - Kyle Yates does not mention preservation of people in the Wycliffe Bible Commentary.

http://www.biblestudyaids.org/member...psa-Index.html
Wycliffe Bible Commentary - edited by Everett Harrison & Charles Pfeiffer (1962 1st ed)

Psalms 12:6-8
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The Response of the Worshiper. Pure words. In contrast to the talk of the loudmouthed ones, God's words are as pure as the finest silver. What he has promised, he will perform. His trustworthiness is assured and proclaimed as a response of worship.

http://www.librarything.com/author/yateskylem
Kyle M. Yates


There may be more in the other Psalms books by Kyle Yates (see Library Thing, Worldcat and Google books for titles and dates).

Kyle Yates was with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville and Oklahoma State University. He was one of the more conservative folks who erred in working on the RSV (which has the erroneous us-us translation).

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-20-2009 at 07:50 AM.
  #168  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:23 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Default William Frederick Cobb - JHVH will keep his promise

Hi Folks,

William Frederick Cobb (1857-1941) has a scholarly-oriented section on the Psalm 12 interpretations.

First note that after reviewing many of the interps of the Psalm (Duhm, Wellhausen, Perowne, Hengstenberg, Ewald, Deissman and Delitzsch are referenced) William Cobb gives us a split interpretation of Psalm 12:7.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vjCzQ_dhn0wC&pg=PA25
The Book of Psalms with Introduction and Notes - W. F. Cobb (1905)

Verse 6 is proof of the power of familiar word of the Bible received traditionally as coming from God .... he cries exultingly that "the sayings of JHVH genuine silver for the land, purified by fire, seven times refined"....

All we can say is that the text as it stands affirms that JHVH will keep His promise and protect the godly from the generation (=the whole genus) of the wicked, and that when men of lax morals are put in high places the godless flaunt their vices publicly and without restraint.. ...

By 1900 Bible scholarship was largely liberal (lots of theories of unbelief were popular), ultra-techie, lacking sense and heart for the Psalms and oft-confused. Cobb as well was something like a mystic with liberal tendencies. (Ironically, his commentary is better than many of the time.)

Cobb also offers another kernel or two.

Wellhausen transposes w. 7 and 8, but without assigning any reason. Perowne, who retains the usual order, remarks that "this return to gloom and doubt is .without parallel at the conclusion of a Ps." The LXX makes no sense. Duhm says that how the clause 8 a got there, and what it means he does not know.


Here is Wellhausen well known for JEPD and stuff like that.

http://books.google.com/books?id=GbYqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14
The Book of Psalms - Julius Wellhausen (1898)


Also with the transposition of verses is Thomas Kelly Cheyne in 1884 (#149) and Hermann Hupfield (1861). All reverse the order of the Psalm verses. (This is largely due to the difficulty in the "persons" interpretations.)

This type of shenanigans is amazing.
All members of the BCA.

Bible Correctors Anonymous.


Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-2009 at 08:31 AM.
  #169  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:26 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Chuck Missler

Hi Folks,

Chuck Missler (Kononia House) properly keeps verses 6-8 together as one section, based on these notes from Keith Knight. And focuses on the words.

http://keith.knight.kuyasa.com/psalms.pdf
The Book of Psalms - compiled by Chuck Missler.

6] The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purifi ed seven times.
7] Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8] The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

His words are pure; flawless; can be relied upon. He exalts His Word even above His Name (Ps 138:2). The things that God abhors have become “exalted” in our entertainments.


And in their publication "How We Got Our Bible" the following verses are properly placed together, all referencing the purity, authority and preservation of God's word.

http://learn.scottenterprise.com/notes/hwgob.pdf
How We Got Our Bible


• Psalm 12:6, 7:
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried
in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve
them from this generation for ever.

• Isaiah 40:8:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of
our God shall stand for ever.

• Deut 12:32: What thing soever I command you,
observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish
from it.

• Matthew 24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away.

• Jeremiah 26:2: Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the
court of the LORD’S house, and speak unto all the
cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD’S
house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto
them; diminish not a word:

• Mark 8:38: Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of
me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful
generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed,
when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy
angels.

• Psalm 138:2: I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy
truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy
name.

Now Chuck Missler (Calvary Chapel heritage before K-House) tends to problematic and dubious stuff, such as referencing Ivan Panin on scripture numerics. Even a milquetoast Frederick Kenyon quote about "substantial integrity" is under the verses. And while Missler "returned to the King James Version of the Bible" (The Armor of God - 1996) there is lots of little "correction" stuff. Nonetheless above he properly expresses at least a bit of the concept of the preservation of the word of God from Psalm 12.

Oh, I found his book "The Search for Messiah" with Mark Eastman (who did the techie research) a reasonably interesting read a few years ago. At least as a starting point into the "Messianic Expections" issues. Risto Santala is listed in the bibliography of the page, an excellent read on the messianic expectations topic, fully on the net with about four books. Risto is a Finnish author, translated into English and Hebrew, who is well-versed in the Hebraics.

Please understand, this thread is designed to be multi-dimensional. On one end we discuss the excellent historic commentators, also the age of rationalist commentaries, also the song and poetry oriented, and also some of the well-known modern Christian authors. And more. I say this to short-circuit some potential criticism. You may find one or two of the groupings not your taste or style. However bear with, and read and appreciate the rest !

Once I saw one of the nicest groupings of scriptures together from the Chuck Missler writings .. he made the cut ! (In general I also appreciate when folks actually include the full verses, instead of look-up verse references.) Beyond that you can see his Bible versions struggles .. where for a modern Christian writer he is better than most, yet still with severe difficulties.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-2009 at 09:39 AM.
  #170  
Old 03-21-2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought View Post
I agree that Jesus can be both in Heaven and on earth at the same time. He is omnipresent but I do not agree with the Word on man made paper and man made ink is Jesus. He is the Word but we can not create Him. I have heard that the KJV is a living, breathing book. It is not only the Word of God but it is God. I can not agree with this if that is where you are going with this.
I have never in my life ever encountered or read anywhere an instance of a Bible Believer/Defender saying the Bible was "God". The foundation of Mormonism is that each Mormon male will become a "God". I've heard Herbert W. Armstrong of the WWCOG and Benny Hinn both say as part of His Body we are "God". John makes it clear in John 1:1 that Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, is the embodiment of His words, but this fallible paper and leather bound copy of His words I have is in no wise "God". I was rooting through a local used bookstore for Bibles and versions when the local Catholic priest accused me of having a "paper Pope" and I agreed enthusiastically with him, that mine IS sinless and infallible, his ISN'T.

The accusation that we Bible Believers/Defenders bow down and offer worship to a book is the ancient Jesuit argument of Dialectic Materialism of Democritus, "form, substance, essence" gobbldegook while lost souls fall into hell each day.

I think we all, pro and con, need to read and renew our minds on the following passages:

Psalms 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

James 5:4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
Leviticus 19:13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
1Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
1Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. (emphasis added)

Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I do believe that before we try to defraud a Christian of their faith that they hold the pure and complete words of God in their hands, we as believers need to be aware of the fact the admonition of the "things written aforetime" and the things written to us today that all these Scriptures hang over our heads.

I'm so thankful for men like John R. RIce, John MacArthur, Doug Kutilek, and Ignatious Loyola who have condescended to men of lower estate like me in their defense of the original mauscripts. Now, according to Romans 10:17 I'd like to see those original manuscripts so that I can be reconciled to God.

I am thankful we have intellect. I've never seen an atheist reconciled to God by the onotological arguments for the existence of God. I've never seen a drunk janitor on the street ministry reconciled to God by the science of textual criticism. The only sinners I ever saw who were reconciled to God(myself included) were done so by hearing the words of God, which are given by inspiration of God. I discovered I have an exact copy of those words given to me, which are the exact copy of the original manuscripts, in my language of course.

Grace and peace, much fruit to you my friends.

Tony
 

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