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Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #11  
Old 07-16-2009, 11:28 AM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Default Jassy

Thanks for your comments Jassy

There is nothing that brings me greater pleasure than for someone to glorify God for what He has said and done. If I write an article or a response to another article and that ends up with God being praised for His wonders and His goodness then I feel like jumping over the moon!

At times the virtual memory on my pc runs too low and when I’m typing out something for the forum a letter or sometimes a word goes missing (which makes my English look poor). But the responses that I get give me the confidence that the general gist of what I am saying is coming across.
I have downloaded something called “Memstat” that seems to be helping a little.

The way I see it is just like I said on the previous post and history bears witness to the fact that the word of God has always been in existence or that it never was in existence at all.
Only God’s enemies are the ones who have argued against this up until the birth of the “science” of textual criticism came along in the 1800s. And as a result of this newly developed “science” (the product and trophy of unsaved philosophers), a believer is reckoned to be an unlearned fool voicing from ignorance if they adhere to the doctrine that the body of Christ has always held to (i.e. the preservation of sacred Scripture).

If we don’t have the preserved words of God today then my question is – at what point in history did the church surrender such a fundamental element to its existence? – how did the entire church (that was spreading around the earth manage to lose them all at once in such a collective way?)
I can understand that the enemies of the gospel may have burned some of them (like they did in the reformation) – but why even do that if they had already gone missing before the dark ages?

Now, if they hadn’t gone missing before that time then the people who died for them must have possessed them otherwise they wouldn’t have laid down their lives so that we could possess what they knew to be corrupt! And if the church (not only had them) but lived by them for guidance (and to put their enemies to flight) during the reformation then there is no argument that those Scriptures are still in our hands today which is exactly what we believe is present in the KJB.

The only thing that has happened is that an unholy counterpart has been developed and established to oppose the position of those whose foundation is contrary to those who wish to rule the hearts and minds of the populous. This is not just a 21st century battle it is a war that has been going on since Adam and Eve were given the first words that God voiced to humanity – the only difference is that the voices are now coming from the ones who claim to believe the words of God.

God bless

PaulB
  #12  
Old 07-16-2009, 01:30 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default Larry's quote by John Owen

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
The only thing that has happened is that an unholy counterpart has been developed and established to oppose the position of those whose foundation is contrary to those who wish to rule the hearts and minds of the populous. This is not just a 21st century battle it is a war that has been going on since Adam and Eve were given the first words that God voiced to humanity – the only difference is that the voices are now coming from the ones who claim to believe the words of God.

God bless

PaulB
Excellent point, Paul.

Larry, let's look at the quote from John Owen and your own remarks.

"Of all the inventions of Satan to draw off the minds of men from the Word of God, this of decrying the authority of the originals seems to me the most pernicious."

Larry, to "decry" means to denounce, to condemn or to censure. John Owen was undoubtedly a mighty Christian man and he wrote a lot of good things. He also believe that the apostles and Christ Himself did not use some fictitious LXX, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures. Great.

Perhaps his quote here about the "originals" can be tempered by the fact that he undoubtedly used the King James Bible in his teaching and preaching. He lived from 1616 to 1683, so the KJB was his Bible.

However it seems that by his statement both you and he are setting TWO Standards as your final authority, and appealing to "originals" is a very poorly thought out position to hold and in fact contradicts your statement about the King James Bible being the infallible words of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777
Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God? without error?

[/quote]I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.

I'm quite surprised that you would say this is the "doctrine of devils" as the quotes that i provided put forth the error of modern textual criticism.[/quote]

Actually Larry, you have tossed us right back into the error of modern textual criticism and so has John Owen by his quote.

Why? Simply because THERE ARE NO ORIGINALS. You are referring us to a Standard that SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST. You have never seen a single word of "the originals" and day in your life and neither did John Owen.

You are placing your faith in something thatyou know does not exist. You have absolutely no possible way of proving or demonstrating to anyone that the texts that underly the King James Bible "match" the originals, and you know it.

So why bring up two standards, the King James Bible and your non-existent, never seen, invisible and hypothetical "originals"? Don't be a double minded man. Go one way or the other, but don't pretend for a moment that by appealing to your long lost and never seen by you or anyone else "originals" you are somehow setting up the Standard for anything. They are not the final authority and never have been.

Think about it.

Will K
  #13  
Old 07-16-2009, 02:26 PM
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Jassy Jassy is offline
 
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Default Brother PaulB

I recall reading that theological academia invented the "science" of textual criticism, in a feeble attempt to discredit true believers, who often didn't have a doctorate or any formal education in "religion." I thank God that He didn't see the need for me to have such education - He knows that His true Word is ALL I NEED!!

It's such a disgrace how so many mislead Christians or deceptive UNbelievers, placed by the devil in high academic places, purposefully go about trying to SHAME the uneducated loyal Christians who remain faithful to the TRUTH - that we have the PURE, INFALLIBLE Word of God in the KJB1611.

It's been my JOY to discover other true Christians here on this board. Glad that you're here, brother, to join with us in uplifting God's inspired and preserved Bible!

That same source of deception that said to Adam and Eve in the Garden -"Yea, hath God said..." (Gen. 3:1) is still the same source that is gleefully causing division, doubt and heresay today! Satan, whether present in the serpent, or as a wolf in sheep's clothing amongst believers, uses the same age-old tactics that always worked for him. Cast and sow doubts... he's an expert at that. I'm happy that I see him for what he is: the father of LIES!"

Jassy
  #14  
Old 07-18-2009, 12:17 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Default

Hi Folks,

I know this may take us afield a bit, but I do have two questions for Matthew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.
Is this an assertion that you feel is provable, that you can prove ? Please share precisely what is the basis for your saying with certainty that that no volume on earth today in Greek or Hebrew is the perfect word of God.

(Perhaps your point is that the Hebrew would be imperfect on the NT, and similarly the Greek would be imperfect on the OT, however that is not at all clear from what you wrote.)

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
If you could share the book and page reference, it would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven
  #15  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:04 PM
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bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Is this an assertion that you feel is provable, that you can prove ? Please share precisely what is the basis for your saying with certainty that that no volume on earth today in Greek or Hebrew is the perfect word of God.
What I am saying is that it cannot be certainly proved that there is one single volume on earth which right now is perfect of either testament in its respective original language. In fact, it appears that every edition we know of does differ to the King James Bible.

By perfect, I mean "exemplar" perfect, in that there are prefectly adequet and sufficent copies of Scripture in the original languages, but beyond that, we cannot say certainly that one edition is "the standard".

This means that other translations and so on are the Word of God, even though they might not match the King James Bible fully. The point is that while they might be sufficient, it is better and right to rely upon that which we know is "exemplar" perfect. The KJB is it.

On the lack of citation of Joseph Mede, this is because I have a text file from Clovis Apocyl. which has no page numbers.

There are several quotes from several authors which indicate that the Christian evangelisation of the Jews would take place in the latter days glory of the Church, of which I have some quotes at hand, but there are more:

Quote:
It is in this darkness that we find the sixth vial brings the next calamity: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” (Revelation 16:12).

Already in the 1630s, Joseph Mede had some understanding what the prophecy of the “kings of the east” was referring to:

“That is, the Church of Christ, as it was about to become double by the conversion of Israel” (Mede.)

“The sixth phial will be poured out on the great river Euphrates; so that, being dried up, a passage may be prepared for the new enemies of the beast to come from the Last, that is, for the Israelites, wonderfully converted to the pure faith and Worship of Christ, and now become candidates for the kingdom promised for so many ages. Whom the followers of the beast [Romanism], perhaps, may be inclined to consider as the army of their fictitious antichrist, to arise from the Jews, of whom they do not Hesitate to assert, that even we of this day are the forerunners. God thus avenging their obstinacy in error.” (Mede.)

“Whatever it may be, their obstruction being removed, the way of approach is by some means said to be prepared for these new Christians from the East, and that, as it appears, for the purpose of undertaking an expedition against the beast, to whose destruction all the phials are subservient. For whence otherwise, and for what reason, should such a trepidation and panic seize upon the followers of the beast, and even the demons themselves, from the time of the drying up of the river, as to occasion such a horrible and unheard-of preparation for war as is here described; unless they, with the whole diabolical cohort, feared every extremity from the accession of the new kings of the East?” (Mede.)

The historicist commentator Barnes speculated, “in accordance with what is so often said in the prophets, that under the gospel kings and princes would consecrate themselves and their wealth to God. See Psalm 72:10, 11, ‘The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.’ So also Isaiah 40:4–6, 9, 11, [summarised], ‘Thy sons shall come from far.—The forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.—All they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense.—The isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them.—Thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.’ All that is fairly implied in the language used here is, that the kings of the east would be converted to the true religion...”

The historicist theologian Bishop Newton conjectured that the Roman Catholic response would be manifest in the tribulation, “Whoever they be, they appear to threaten the ruin and destruction of the Kingdom of the beast: and therefore the agents and emissaries of popery ... are employed to oppose them, and stir up the princes and potentates of their communion to make their united and lad effort in a religious war. Of necessity there must be times of great trouble and affliction ... Armageddon”.

See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnGvFzy94t4
Here is a quote from Oliver Cromwell, Speech the First, 1653, "This being so, truly it puts me in mind of another Scripture, that famous Psalm, sixty-eighth Psalm ; l which indeed is a glorious prophecy, I am persuaded, of the Gospel churches, it may be, of the Jews also. There it prophesies that He will bring His people again from the depths of the sea, as once He led " Israel through the Red Sea." And it may be, as some think, God will bring the Jews home to their station from the isles of the sea, and answer their expectations as from the depths of the sea. But, at all events, sure I am, when the Lord shall set up the glory of the Gospel Church, it shall be a gathering of people as out of deep waters, out of the multitude of waters t such are His people, drawn out of the multitudes of the nations and people of this world. And truly that Psalm is very glorious in many other parts of it : when He gave the word, great was the company of them that published it. Kings of armies did flee apace, and she that tarried at home divided the spoil; and " Although ye have lain among the pots, yet shall ye " be as the wings of a dove, covered with silver, and her feathers " with yellow gold." And indeed the triumph of that Psalm is exceeding high and great ; and God is accomplishing it."

I found another Mede quote:

"That testimony of Amos, quoted by James in the Council of the Apostles, Acts, c. xv. (not to notice this likewise), seems to have been intended of the anticipated of the anticipated conversion of the Gentiles, i. e. of that which would precede the restoration of the Jews; and on that account... the same inference may he collected of the anticipated adoption of the Gentiles among the people of God, namely, in this sense, that the Jews being brought back, when the tabernacle of David, which had fallen down, should at last be restored"

Last edited by bibleprotector; 07-18-2009 at 10:21 PM.
 

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