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  #1  
Old 07-15-2009, 06:57 AM
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Default John Owen Quote

“Let it be remembered, that the vulgar copy we use, was the public possession of many generations; that upon the invention of printing, it was in actual authority throughout the world, with them that used and understood that language….men may, if they please, take pains to inform the world, wherein such and such copies are corrupted or mistaken, but to impose their known failings on us as various lections, is of course not to be approved….[t]he generality of learned men among Protestants are not yet infected with this leaven…And if this change of judgment which hath been long insinuating itself, by the curiosity and boldness of critics, should break in also on the Protestant world, and be avowed in public works, it is easy to conjecture what the end will be. We went from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals, I wish none have a mind to return thither again, under the pretence of their corruption.” John Owen, Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture, pg 473 to 477
  #2  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:08 AM
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Default Another quote from Owen

"Of all the inventions of Satan to draw off the minds of men from the Word of God, this of decrying the authority of the originals seems to me the most pernicious."
  #3  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:28 AM
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Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God?

without error?
  #4  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God?

without error?
I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.
  #5  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by larryb View Post
I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.
The Word of God has been pure, preserved and infallible in Hebrew and Greek. But plenty of Protestants, Puritans and us today have not seen or used the Hebrew and Greek.

The problem is that there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.

Now, if you will receive it, the Scripture says:

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Do you realise that NATIONS are supposed to be obedient to the very words of God? How can that be, if there are differences in Textus Receptus editions? Surely, the solution must be that in the latter days glory of the Church, there would be one Bible made common for believers.

And you will find that English Puritans believed that they were directly part of this providential working of God.

Again, why turn back to Hebrew, when it is the Protestant Christians of the latter days who have the highest truth. Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Therefore, the Scripture is not locked in or limited to or authoritative only merely in the original languages, but that the Church, particularly that which is of the Anglo-Protestant tradition, and the King James Bible best fits, that it should be the way by which the furtherest inroads into the world should be made by the Gospel in the latter days, as has already been seen since the Reformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryb View Post
Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.
Since the King James Bible is an independent text, it can only be said to be faithful to the autographs, for that there are variations among the original language copies which exist. Therefore, the authority of Scripture cannot be merely based on its faithfulness to the past, but that it also is presently shown by signal providences to be the Word of God. No one is saved by believing in the Autographs. If you look at 1 Peter 1:23, 25, people are saved by believing the Word right now.

By examining the KJB on its own terms you will see that it is self-validating, self-authenticating. Yes, many have said it is a good Bible, and the best translation, but we should see that it is the very Word of God today, and that if the original languages were no longer understood (as they increasingly are MISunderstood the more modernists work with them), we can be certain that God has not failed to deliver His Word to the end of the world, and to the ends of the earth, that is, by the King James Bible itself.

It is possible for us to show the purity of the King James Bible by studying the King James Bible right now.
  #6  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryb View Post
“Let it be remembered, that the vulgar copy we use, was the public possession of many generations; that upon the invention of printing, it was in actual authority throughout the world, with them that used and understood that language….men may, if they please, take pains to inform the world, wherein such and such copies are corrupted or mistaken, but to impose their known failings on us as various lections, is of course not to be approved….[t]he generality of learned men among Protestants are not yet infected with this leaven…And if this change of judgment which hath been long insinuating itself, by the curiosity and boldness of critics, should break in also on the Protestant world, and be avowed in public works, it is easy to conjecture what the end will be. We went from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals, I wish none have a mind to return thither again, under the pretence of their corruption.” John Owen, Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture, pg 473 to 477
I'm sorry but this is one of the reasons why I absolutely reject and detest Calvinism...They hold the writings of the reformers as inspired and infallible and also...they exalt these men to the point of worship...Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, James White and on and on it goes.

No offense Larry but you obviously have an agenda here and that's to spread your reformed theology...but I call it a doctrine of devils, I'm not buying what you're selling, thanks anyways, I'll stick with the word of God and not man's opinion and interpretation.

It's quite scary.
  #7  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:54 AM
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Default Larry B

Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.

God bless

PaulB
  #8  
Old 07-15-2009, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Cloudwalker View Post
I'm sorry but this is one of the reasons why I absolutely reject and detest Calvinism...They hold the writings of the reformers as inspired and infallible and also...they exalt these men to the point of worship...Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, James White and on and on it goes.

No offense Larry but you obviously have an agenda here and that's to spread your reformed theology...but I call it a doctrine of devils, I'm not buying what you're selling, thanks anyways, I'll stick with the word of God and not man's opinion and interpretation.

It's quite scary.
I don't know of any who hold to the Reformed doctrines of the Bible who believe the Reformers were inspired, infallible, etc.
You clearly misunderstand Reformed theology if you have this view.

The Lord has blessed His Church with teachers throughout the years, and there is nothing wrong with learning from those God has blessed the Church with.

I'm quite surprised that you would say this is the "doctrine of devils" as the quotes that i provided put forth the error of modern textual criticism.
  #9  
Old 07-15-2009, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by larryb View Post
I don't know of any who hold to the Reformed doctrines of the Bible who believe the Reformers were inspired, infallible, etc.
You clearly misunderstand Reformed theology if you have this view.
Respectfully, I disagree.

I have known countless of reformers who instead of quoting me Scripture in the past, they will give me some John Owen quote...or Aurthur Pink or Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul or....I think you get the point, I hope you do.

It's time to put away MAN'S philosophy and opinion's and stick to what God has said.

The Holy Ghost interprets Scripture...not John Calvin or Augustine.

Oh, sorry for the harsh words of doctrine of devils...but after a brief study of Calvinism {and that's all it took, a brief study} there is no doubt in my mind. To say that God would choose some to the flames of fire and clearly He said it was PREPARED for Satan and his fallen angels is INSANE and blasphemy...if anyone goes to damnation, it will be from the free will that God has given them and nothing else...God is no Tyrant that reformed theology has turned Him into, no sir.

Think about it, if God has decreed some to damnation...HOW CAN HE JUDGE THEM???

LOL, it's ridiculous and unbelievable!

Last edited by Cloudwalker; 07-15-2009 at 10:31 AM.
  #10  
Old 07-15-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.
God bless

PaulB
[Emphasis above mine...]
Amen brother PaulB! I agree with you. We HAVE the TRUE Word of God, infallable, and in our hands, here in 2009. I believe that with all of my heart, because I believe in God, and He does what He says He will do!! And, OH!! How BLESSED we are to have God's Word. I will always praise Him and give GLORY to Him for inspiring and preserving His Word for us. What a JOY it is to read the beautiful KJ Bible!

Jassy
 

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