AV1611 Bible Forum Archive
The King James Bible Page
SwordSearcher Bible Software

Go Back   AV1611 Bible Forum Archive > Bible Versions

Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:56 PM
joseph joseph is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Default The Peshitta

Hi, Im hoping someone can help me with this question. I have been very encouraged in my own faith by the convictiont that the KJV is truly the inspired word of God. I have been solidified in this conviction by reading the history of the Bible and seeing how God has preserved His word through the ages.

Occasionally though, I come across something that I can't quite answer. Recently, I was researching a little about the Peshitta. I found several sites that are critical of KJV "onlyism" and point out that the Peshitta and the KJV differ in quite a few places. Here is an example of sone site that makes this point.

http://www.kjv-only.com/peshitta.html

I would appreciated any comments that any of you would have on this topic. Thanks.
  #2  
Old 04-05-2009, 10:56 PM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

One thing is that there are critical editions of the "Peshitta" made since the French Revolution, so I have no doubt that a modernist reconstruction of Syriac might cause a different-as-possible text to the traditional>KJB text.
  #3  
Old 04-06-2009, 03:17 AM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
Hi, Im hoping someone can help me with this question. I have been very encouraged in my own faith by the convictiont that the KJV is truly the inspired word of God. I have been solidified in this conviction by reading the history of the Bible and seeing how God has preserved His word through the ages.

Occasionally though, I come across something that I can't quite answer. Recently, I was researching a little about the Peshitta. I found several sites that are critical of KJV "onlyism" and point out that the Peshitta and the KJV differ in quite a few places. Here is an example of sone site that makes this point.

http://www.kjv-only.com/peshitta.html

I would appreciated any comments that any of you would have on this topic. Thanks.
Brother Joseph, I have just a few comments for you.

I agree with BP, the Syriac version of today and the CORRECT Syriac of years past are two different texts. The present-day Syriac, as with the underlying Greek texts of Westcott and Hort, has been revised to fit into the text of W&H, but first I'd like to address the OT verses displayed on this website.

The first seven OT verses mentioned are copyists attempts to correct alleged "contradictions" found in these verses, the source being the "Septuagint" or "LXX". There is no manuscript evidence for the "LXX and the letter mentioning it as a pre-Christ OT is acknowleged to be a fake. I have the "LXX" in Greek and English in front of me. The Peshitta I have agrees with the LXX in these corrupted verses. Also the verse for Psalms 145. That's eight verses.

In Matthew 27 the correct Peshitta does agree with the website, 3 Syriac manuscripts are cited by Nestle's while 1 Syriac manuscript agrees with the KJV reading. That's nine verses.

The verse in Mark chapter 1 is found in two corrupted Syriac manuscripts but only the margin of the third("h") The KJV reading is found in the body of the text of this manuscript "h". That's ten verses they are correct on.

The verse in Jude is an Alexandrian corruption robbing Christ of His deity by inserting Him after "...God our saviour" in order to set up two distinct entities in the verse. That's eleven verses.

Acts 4:5 in my Peshitta follows the corrupt NIV as does Romans 9:5. That's thirteen verses.

The rest of the verses they mention is where the authors of this website("...with thanks to Rick Norris...")fall flat on their faces. The verse cited in Mark 8 is not in my versions of the NIV or NASB and suggest they followed someone else's error without checking it in this verse, or that the older versions of the NIV and NASB had the reading "Jesus", which would make JESUS THE BLIND MAN.

Mar 8:24 And he looked and said, I see men like trees, walking.(Peshitta)

Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.(KJV)

Mar 8:24 He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around."(NIV)

Mar 8:24 And he looked up and said, "I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around."

Below is the passages for John 1:18 as they occur in truth:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(KJV)

Joh 1:18 No man has ever seen God; but the firstborn of God, who is in the bosom of his Father, he has declared him.(Peshitta)

While only one Syriac manuscript reads "only-begotten god" the extant manuscripts do record a doctrinal error: Jesus Christ was NOT God's "firstborn" but ISRAEL was:

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Ex 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jesus Christ was His second-born, but only begotten Son.

Below we see Jerome in the 4th century AD rejected the corrupt Alexandrian reading and records in Latin, "only begotten Son"("unigenitus Filius").

Joh 1:18 Deum nemo vidit umquam unigenitus Filius qui est in sinu Patris ipse enarravit(Jerome's Vulgate)

John Wycliffe in the 14th century AD translated Jerome's Vulgate into English and preserves the reading, below in it's original spelling:

Joh 1:18 No man sai euer God, no but the `oon bigetun sone, that is in the bosum of the fadir, he hath teld out.(John Wycliffe)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.(NIV)

The NIV has probably one of the most garbled and doctrinally unsound "translations" I've read since Jesus was the blind man in Mark 8. We have a God who NO ONE has ever seen, then another God but He is "one and only" who is at the poor Father's side, who is shaking His head like I am right now. Let's look at the NASB and the Jehovah's Witnesses version(The Nit-Wit Translation) and count the Gods that the Peshitta is supposed to have:

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.(NASB)

Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.(NWT)

One God plus "One" God(NIV) equals TWO Gods, and the authors of this webpage are in full agreement with both the corruption and the heresy. Evidence for this corrupt reading(only one Syriac manuscript listed by Nestle): p66 p75 S B C* L 33 syr(p) cop(north)

Unfortunately for the website authors one of the most contested verses in the Bible is found also in the Syriac:

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(Peshitta)

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV)

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testifyNIV)

Same with the John 7:53-8:11:

Joh 7:53 So everyone went to his own house.
Joh 8:1 THEN Jesus went to the mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And in the morning he came again to the temple, and all the people were coming to him; and he sat down and taught them.
Joh 8:3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in adultery; and they made her to stand in the midst.
Joh 8:4 They said to him, Teacher, this woman was caught openly in the act of adultery.
Joh 8:5 Now in the law of Moses it is commanded that women such as these should be stoned; but what do you say?
Joh 8:6 They said this to tempt him, that they might have a cause to accuse him. While Jesus was bent down, he was writing on the ground.
Joh 8:7 When they were through questioning him, he straightened himself up and said to them, He who is among you without sin, let him first throw a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again as he bent down, he wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And when they heard it, they left one by one, beginning with the elders; and the man woman was left alone in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus straightened himself up, he said to the woman, Where are they?
Joh 8:11 did no henceforth, do not sin again.(Peshitta)

Joh 7:53 And every man went unto his own house.
Joh 8:1 THEN Jesus went to the mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And in the morning he came again to the temple, and all the people were coming to him; and he sat down and taught them.
Joh 8:3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in adultery; and they made her to stand in the midst.
Joh 8:4 They said to him, Teacher, this woman was caught openly in the act of adultery.
Joh 8:5 Now in the law of Moses it is commanded that women such as these should be stoned; but what do you say?
Joh 8:6 They said this to tempt him, that they might have a cause to accuse him. While Jesus was bent down, he was writing on the ground.
Joh 8:7 When they were through questioning him, he straightened himself up and said to them, He who is among you without sin, let him first throw a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again as he bent down, he wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And when they heard it, they left one by one, beginning with the elders; and the man woman was left alone in the midst.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus straightened himself up, he said to the woman, Where are they?
Joh 8:11 did no henceforth, do not sin again.(KJV)

Brother Joseph, there are over 36000 verses in the Bible? So this website found 28 differences out of 36000-plus between the Syriac Peshitta and the KJV? That's majoring on the minors. And to add insult to injury I've reduced that number by 15 verses leaving them with an even more paltry 13. Given that 5000 plus Majority text manuscripts are over 95 percent in agreement and that the 13 readings in the Alexandrian manuscripts and versions can be traced to one author...

You see the deceit, unstable, and double-minded duplicity of these people? Is there any reason I should NOT call them The Original Manuscript Frauds?

Grace and peace to you this day and all days.

Tony
  #4  
Old 04-07-2009, 09:40 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
Hi, Im hoping someone can help me with this question. I have been very encouraged in my own faith by the convictiont that the KJV is truly the inspired word of God. I have been solidified in this conviction by reading the history of the Bible and seeing how God has preserved His word through the ages.

Occasionally though, I come across something that I can't quite answer. Recently, I was researching a little about the Peshitta. I found several sites that are critical of KJV "onlyism" and point out that the Peshitta and the KJV differ in quite a few places. Here is an example of sone site that makes this point.

http://www.kjv-only.com/peshitta.html

I would appreciated any comments that any of you would have on this topic. Thanks.
Joseph, as BP told you and as I demonstrated, these people are not interested in the truth. The gist of the Peshitta is that it, as was all texts, were revised in the late 1900s to fit the Alexandrian texts. My Peshitta I have has a number of differences with the KJV that are too few to be upset over.

Brother, always remember what Bob Jones Sr. said: You and God constitute a majority.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony
  #5  
Old 04-09-2009, 07:16 AM
joseph joseph is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Default

Thank you all for your input. It is helpful.
  #6  
Old 04-22-2009, 02:55 PM
Tandi
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
. ....My Peshitta I have has a number of differences with the KJV that are too few to be upset over.....

Tony
Hi Tony,

Can you tell me how the Peshitta translates Matthew 28:1?

Specifically.....is mia ton sabbaton translated "first day of the week" or is sabbaton translated sabbath?

The peshitta.org site has been down for quite some time.

Thank you for your help.

Shalom,

Tandi
  #7  
Old 04-22-2009, 03:41 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
Hi Tony,

Can you tell me how the Peshitta translates Matthew 28:1?

Specifically.....is mia ton sabbaton translated "first day of the week" or is sabbaton translated sabbath?

The peshitta.org site has been down for quite some time.

Thank you for your help.

Shalom,

Tandi
(KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

(Peshitta 1905) Mat 28:1 IN the evening of the sabbath day, when the first day of the week began, there came Mary of Magdala and the other Mary, to see the tomb.

Tandi, the version of the Peshitta I have is the 1905, later versions have been converted over to the Westcott-Hort/ Nestles corrupted Alexandrian text for the most part. Above is the English translation from the Syriac text of 1905, the phrase you cite("mia ton sabbaton") is not Syriac but Koine' Greek.

I hope this helps, as I said, the differing readings of the Peshitta depends, as with Greek texts and translations into English, on which text version you use, the Majority readings or Alexandrian.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #8  
Old 07-27-2009, 06:11 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Peshitta overview

Hi Folks,

There are a number of difficulties in this thread, some of which were addressed by Thomas Holland in response to the Tegart-Norris confusions. Alllow me to start with a summary of the major issues, concentrating first on the NT.

The traditional text of the Holy Gospels vindicated and established
http://books.google.com/books?id=Be5JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA130
"It is well known that the Peshitto is mainly in agreement with the traditional text." - Dean John Burgon


a) The Peshitta (even in its earlier form, before the greater Byzantine influence of the Philoxenian and Harklean versions) has a much greater affinity to the TR/KJB texts than to the Alexandrian. When I looked at about 200 significant variants, more than 75% of the time the Peshitta lined up with the true Bible, about 25% with corruption. Note that 25% corruption on those variants will allow for a lot of significant corruptions, such as the omission of the Pericope Adultera, while the other large section variant, the ending of Mark, is in the Peshitta.

(btw - It would be nice to have a page where about 30 of the variants are shown, say 20 pro-Byz and 10 pro-Alex, just to give a fuller sense.)

(Studies can vary, there is absolutely no doubt that the numbers are a large majority. I used Brandon's Magic Marker page as the significant variants in my study, looking at every variant.)

b) Thus it is absolutely correct to use the Peshitta as an important Byzantine and TR/KJB witness. Dean John Burgon showed conclusively that this is true even if the Peshitta were the result of a recension, per the strange Hort theories.

Note that this emphasis is largely a refutation of the bogus Westcott-Hort theories. The Peshitta is one of many such refutations, important because it is such a significant and early witness.

c) However, it is not right to claim the Peshitta as identical or almost identical to the King James Bible. A lot of the Tegart-Norris stuff is an attack on this unsupportable claim, made or implied by a couple of King James Bible writers. By their cornfusenik and deceptive writing techniques they can then try to ignore the real textual substantive issues of the clear and strong Peshitta-KJB affinity. And falsely try to link the majority of King James Bible defenders (who write reasonably and accurately on this) with the few who err and overstate the similarity. And if we see a King James Bible defender who overstates the similarity, we can consider sending them a correction. (In that sense, I appreciate the critics, as they help us clarify the real issues and write more precisely.)

d) It is simply incorrect to try to claim that the Peshitta text has been alexandrinized in a Westcott-Hort sense. You can get the agreed-upon Peshitta text from Murdock, Etheridge or Lasma, all online, and the only differences are a few western-eastern distinctions (Murdoch==Western, Lamsa==Eastern) that have very little influence on this analysis.

There is a lot more that could be discussed, such as the dating of the Peshitta, the missing five books (important especially in its support of an early date), the significance in more depth in the analysis of Dean Burgon, the OT situation, the Aramaic Primacy mishegas (helpful though in some factual stuff), Lamsa's approach. However I simply want to renew this discussion in a more general sense first.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 07-27-2009 at 06:17 AM.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Website AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study  The Fundamental Top 500