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  #21  
Old 07-23-2009, 08:40 PM
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Oh no, what is going on

Last edited by Biblestudent; 07-23-2009 at 08:46 PM.
  #22  
Old 07-23-2009, 09:29 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Hi Folks,

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
and bewraying the fact that he does not really know what he is speaking about.
Amen.. and a very nice example of the King James Bible vocabulary adding to the richness of today's English. I really appreciated the sharing on the distinction between betray and bewray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He makes some astonishing false statements ... “Therefore, what the translators did in 1611 was not complete, because it was missing 47 words”. In reality, the version text and translation were complete, and the translators cannot be charged with producing an inferior work.
And if Luke or Peter misspelled a word, or gave a word that was clarified by an amenusis, does that mean that should be accused of uninspiration ? I trow not ! It is the whole process of giving scripture that is inspired of God. :

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And thus every individual who is a part of this process is a part of the inspiration process. Trying to fragment and dissect against this process, which has given us the fully pure and perfect King James Bible, is only the wiles of men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He makes the erroneous assumption that what is printed in 1611 must be the translators’ intended work as far as every last detail of the presentation. But since it is clear that the translators did not intend nor were the authors of the printing errors, already it can be pointed out that the translators cannot be summarily be blamed for doing an incomplete work.
There should be no "blame" even if the King James Bible was perfected more excellently in 1629 or 1638 or any other time. The process of the giving of scripture involved many ages and men, the King James Bible translators of 1611 being one central fulcrum, the Bible authors and their helpers another, and many others, known and unknown. Tyndale and the Geneva Bible translators and the TR labourers and many others (at the times of the NT authors and later) can be considered a part of the whole process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He argues: 1. Words were added later. 2. Therefore the 1611 translators’ work was incomplete. 3. Therefore the translators were not inspired.
And thus, if Luke or Peter or Isaiah omitted a word that was corrected by their friend, or postal companion, or translator or another, they were not inspired ? This question arises whether the enhancement or correction arises an hour later, or a week or a year or a decade or a century. Perhaps Mark wrote in Latin or Greaco-Latin and a later Greek translator did some vocabularly tweaking, adjusment, formalization. Do summit-men claim that all such transmission possibilities are impossible ? On what basis ? (If so .. perhaps The declarations of Warfield.)

Overall, I can understand a little better the hesitation to apply "inspiration" to the men used of God rather than to scripture. Something at least to consider. However in that case we have a category error (in the attempt to un-inspire the 1611 work and men) -- rather than an accusation against the King James Bible. The KJB 1611 is scripture, therefore according to Timothy it is given by inspiration of God.

As I have explained above, I also do not think we have any need to claim absolute perfection (putting aside the presentation issues) in the extremely pure 1611 King James Bible. Having absolute perfection in the pure Bible in our hands, such as many regard the PCE, is both wonderful and the basic need. The KJB 1611 labours have been, clearly, one major part of this pure Bible process. King James Bible defenders I believe help themselves and others when they emphasize the whole process of the Reformation Bible, the pure word of God, leading unto the purest "Received Text", the King James Bible, giving us, the ploughman and even the scholar the pure word of God, 100% pure and perfect, inspired and preserved. Thank you Lord Jesus for your pure word.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Last edited by Steven Avery; 07-23-2009 at 09:38 PM.
  #23  
Old 07-23-2009, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: "KJB summit"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
Oh no, what is going on

Aloha brother Sammy,

Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}

Please check the following Links:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

This is the same "road" that practically every single so-called "Fundamentalist Christian Institute" of higher learning has taken in the United States in the last 60-75 years. This is the "broad way" (road) that leadeth to destruction (i.e. Apostasy) "and many there be which go in thereat."

The lesson is clear for all genuine Bible believers - do NOT place your trust in men, especially famous Christian "Celebrities".

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. {Especially "famous pastors"}
9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
{Or "Christian Celebrities"}

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
  #24  
Old 07-23-2009, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha brother Sammy,

Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}
It's a very sad thing for me. I've heard a little about these things, and now the unbelievable reality has happened. Following some links posted led me to their give-away CD contents, and you're right, Bro. George: "It should have been called the "Hyles/Anderson Summit on why "we" do NOT accept the King James Bible as our 'FINAL AUTHORITY'!"

I'm not associated with the Indiana church or school in any way (although a Filipina acquaintance working in the US is currently churched there), but I am very much concerned when another big Fundamental Baptist leaves the KJV.
  #25  
Old 07-24-2009, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: " KJB summit"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
I have long thought that it would be a good idea to bring together men who have completely and vocally stood on the perfection of the KJB to establish a standard from which churches who sought to answer questions on the issue but were without the necessary leadership, or whose leaders were limited in their exposure to the issue could draw information.

There are true KJBO leaders throughout the faithful who are not generally known as famous names, but have the knowledge to establish a "clearing-house" for seekers of the truth. The sad problem with bringing together well-known people is often there is a clash for position. If the leaders were all of some equal footing, that is, none carried widely recognized names, then perhaps the "pride" of popularity might be diminished.

I have often mused that if there could be a "summit" of such men known here, and others who don't post here but carry the torch of faithfulness, then perhaps the mutual knowledge could develop into a basis for the defense of the supremacy of the KJB. So much time is spent repeating arguments in areas of contention, such as "strain at" vs "strain out", "Easter", number variations, etc. It would be very beneficial if a central database could be established of the Biblical answers to these challenges. Many books have been written, but often differences in explanation lead to confusion.

The so-called "KJB Summit" addressed in this thread did not reach the goal.

Is this too much of a dream to be a reality?

Aloha Brother Tim,

The reason why you will never see such an endeavor as you envision ever take place amongst Christians who "profess" to believe in the King James Bible is because, although you and I may “differ” on some issues, I firmly believe that (in your heart) you have an honest and sincere desire to see this issue settled amongst genuine Bible believers. The problem is that - the men who put on this so-called "KJB Summit" obviously had a totally "different agenda” (outcome) in mind! {NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the wickedness, and the guile, and deceit that still reside in the hearts of believers.}

I believe that this "Summit" is all about the "posturing" and "positioning" of Hyles/Anderson College (and the men who are connected with it) as being the "defenders" of the “true word” of God, and "AUTHORITIES" as to the "nature" of the GENUINE TEXT of Scripture, which according to their testimony, cannot be found (inspired, Holy, infallible, perfect and without error) in any ENGLISH BIBLE, but which resides in the "GREEK" and the "HEBREW" (take your pick!) instead!

Bob Jones University went through this "same posturing" decades ago, and they used the exact same "methods" (Christian College Professors, i.e. the "scribes") to convince ignorant Christians of their "loyalty" and "faithfulness" to God's Holy word. {But anyone who is familiar with the history of BJU knows better - NOW.}

These men presented the "facts" with such an admixture of obvious error and the deliberate omission of crucial historic "facts” that only those Christians who are ignorant of the "Which Bible" issue will fall for their carefully crafted “revisionism”.


Brother Matthew (Bibleprotector) dealt with, and handily refuted, only one portion of onepresentation” - out of 11 “presentations”. Imagine how long and laborious it would be to demonstrate and prove all of the errors and misinformation that were introduced at this so-called “Summit”! What about ALL of the pertinent “FACTS” that these men deliberately left out of their “presentations”? As the following comments (on just one part of one “presentation”) will demonstrate:

Check out Mr. Ted Speer’s 2nd. “presentation” where he JUSTIFIES CORRECTING the King James Bible by citing the fact that Dr. John R. Rice CORRECTED it in his writings; and Dr. Joe Boyd CORRECTED it in the classroom at Hyles/Anderson College; and Jack Hyles CORRECTED it in some of his writings in the 1950’s. What Mr. Speer carefully (and purposefully) NEGLECTED to cite was the fact that Jack Hyles later clearly repudiated his earlier error (committed when he was a young and inexperienced preacher – following “the herd”) and that from the 1980’s on was a staunch supporter of the King James Bible! NOT very “HONEST” of Mr. Speer to OMIT THAT CRUCIAL “FACT” – wouldn’t you say? What do we do about “Christians” who purposely OMIT the TRUTH in order to “prove” their point? DISENGENUOUS doesn’t begin to “define” such a “Christian”! Check this Link out to see what Jack Hyles REALLY & TRULY BELIEVED about the King James Bible: http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml}

What of the off-hand (snide) remarks made about those of us who love God’s Holy words and who “dare” to question these men - about a subject that they claim is so “complex”, that “ordinary” Christians can’t possibly grasp it or understand it? {Talk about arrogance! } Who are we (ordinary Christians) to QUESTION the “experts”? What can we (ordinary Christians) possibly know that they don’t already know? And who do we (ordinary Christians) think we are - asking “biased questions” (as if anyone is “unbiased”!), just because we (ordinary Christians) don’t appreciate them casting doubt upon the Holy words of God?

What about the constant fawning over Jack Hyles and all of the other men (pastors & teachers) as if they are to be admired, praised, and exalted ABOVE ordinary Christian brethren? The continual adulation of Jack Hyles (and other pastors & teachers) is unbecoming of “Christian” men who are supposed to be “ensamples to the flock”!

WHY did they OMIT the most important part of WHY most genuine Bible believers believe in the King James Bible: i.e. The Internal Evidence - What Does God have to Say about His “words”? {And not as Ken Schaap professed: “I believe in the King James Bible because my grandfather (Jack Hyles) and my father (Jack Schaap) believed it!}

WHY did they lightly skip over the Old Testament History of the Text, and the New Testament History of the Text? WHY was there no mention of Alexandria, Egypt, and the pernicious influence that Greek Philosophy (and “Higher Education”) had on many of the early professed “Christians” (Clement & Origen – i.e. the Bible correcting “Alexandrian scribes”) and the influence those men (and Greek Philosophy) had on later “Christians” (Jerome & Augustine Roman Catholic “scribes” that were the progenitors and originators of the Roman Catholic bible (Jerome); and the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church (Augustine)?

And what about the History of the Transmission of the Text of the Bible in the Church Age; or the Manuscript Evidence; or a Comparison of Versions? WHY the continual harping on the minor and insignificant differences between the AV1611 and the King James Bible we hold in our hands today? Hmmm?

Again I ask: WHAT was the “PURPOSE” of this so-called “KJB Summit” - if most of the time (and presentations) was spent on pointing out insignificant differences between the AV1611 and the King James Bible that we have today? WHAT could these men have possibly hoped to ACCOMPLISH by continually pointing out those minor differences? HOW could they possibly “think” that this so-called “KJB Summit” would be edifying or profitable to Christians, if all they have done is CAST DOUBT on the veracity and truthfulness of the Holy Bible that we hold in our hands and that most of us cherish?

I keep asking: WHAT WERE THEY “THINKING”? Are they out to DIVIDE genuine Bible believers (even more)? Are they trying to “MARGINALIZE” and “ISOLATE” those of us who believe in the “Holy perfection” of the Holy Scriptures as found in the King James Bible, and place us outside of the MAINSTREAM of “reasonable”, and “sensible” Bible believers – thus casting us as “unreasonable fanatics” and “troublemakers”? Hmmm?

Whatever their motives (God only knows) – they have “stirred the pot” (once again) and you can be sure that in the end, this so-called “KJB Summit” will only serve to DIVIDE the brethren more and more, and CAST DOUBT in the minds and hearts of Christians (who are not familiar with the “Which Bible Issue”) everywhere on the veracity of the Holy Bible!

The subtle, clever, and devious manner, in which this “KJB Summit” was “orchestrated” and carried out, is unworthy of men who pass themselves off as “Bible believers”!

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
  #26  
Old 07-24-2009, 02:11 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Bro. George you said:

Quote:
Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}

Please check the following Links:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

This is the same "road" that practically every single so-called "Fundamentalist Christian Institute" of higher learning has taken in the United States in the last 60-75 years. This is the "broad way" (road) that leadeth to destruction (i.e. Apostasy) "and many there be which go in thereat."

The lesson is clear for all genuine Bible believers - do NOT place your trust in men, especially famous Christian "Celebrities".
Bro. I would also like to add that we should not put our trust in a movement either....The Fundamentalist movement is in the process of apocitizing (if it hasn't happened already!). Us Bible Believers in an effort to seperate ourselves from this apostacy and to identify ourselves dropped "Fundamental" from our "name" awhile back....Making it Independent ... Bible Believing Baptist. I would not be surprised if in an attempt to seperate ourselves from the impending apostacy on this group we will need to change our "name" to something else.

Man sure does mess things up when we get involved don't we!? Let God be true and every man a liar...hold fast that which is good!

Just a few thoughts to back you up brother.
  #27  
Old 07-24-2009, 02:19 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Oh and another thing:

Bro George you said:

Quote:
Bob Jones University went through this "same posturing" decades ago, and they used the exact same "methods" (Christian College Professors, i.e. the "scribes") to convince ignorant Christians of their "loyalty" and "faithfulness" to God's Holy word. {But anyone who is familiar with the history of BJU knows better - NOW.}
Bro. Bill Grady who wrote "What Hath God Wrought" and "How Satan Turned America Against God" spoke at Crown College a few years ago and from the pulpit said that even Crown College will apostatize...If given enough years. He also blasted them on their KJO stand...Quite a humorous message and the comments by Clarence Sexton afterward is completely priceless! LoL

Crown didn't let him finish the rest of his meetings and tried to pay him off to keep quiet about it!!!

Perhaps you've seen it?
 

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