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Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 07-10-2009, 05:22 AM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default 1 Samuel 13:21 "a file" or "charge was a pim"?

1 Samuel 13:21 “Yet THEY HAD A FILE for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads. “

There is much confusion and a wide variety of way the various Bible versions have translated this verse. The reason I bring it up is because at one of the Bible clubs I belong to an NIV user posted it as an example of an indisputable “error” in the King James Bible.

The NIV and some other perhaps surprising modern versions, like the NKJV, have a very different translation in this verse. The NIV reads: “THE PRICE WAS TWO THIRDS OF A SHEKEL for sharpening plowshares and mattocks, and a third of a shekel for sharpening forks and axes and for repointing goads.”

Then they have a footnote that (mistakenly) says: “Hebrew pim; that is, about 1/4 ounce (about 8 grams).” Why do I say mistakenly? Because the meaning of the Hebrew in this verse is not at all so cut and dried as the NIV editors want you to think it is.

For instance, the King James Bible has a marginal note that says: “Hebrew - a file with mouths.” The RSV also reads similarly to the NIV with: “AND THE CHARGE WAS A PIM for the plowshares and for the mattocks, and a third of a shekel for sharpening the axes and for setting the goads.” But then their footnote says: “The Hebrew of this verse is obscure.”

The NKJV also reads very differently than the King James Bible. It basically goes along with the liberal RSV and reads: “AND THE CHARGE FOR A SHARPENING WAS A PIM for the plowshares, the mattocks, the forks, and the axes, and to set the points of the goads.” Then the NKJV has a footnote that reads like the NIV saying that a pim is “About two-thirds shekel weight.”

Other versions that read like the NIV are the NASB, RSV, NRSV, ESV and the Holman Standard. However as we shall soon see, this interpretation of the meaning of the verse is a fairly recent development and one that is not at all shared by many other Bible translators.

The Hebrew expression translated as “file” in the King James Bible and many others is a combination of two words. That is why the KJB margin says “Hebrew - file of mouths. One word is used only once in all the Old Testament and the other one is quite common. The common word is “peh” and is generally translated (or often the translation is omitted as being superfluous) as mouth, commandment, word, according to, hole, edge or parts. The NIV concordance shows that they have not translated this word at all ten times, and have given it over 60 very different meanings including “jaws, edge, fruit, collar, neck, face, number, double-edged, hunger, share and taste”. The NIV only translated it as “two-thirds” just once, and that is here in 1 Samuel 13:21. So for them to dogmatically affirm, as does the NKJV as well, that the Hebrew says “two-thirds of a shekel” is more than a little presumptuous. Even Daniel Wallace notes that the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.

Bible commentators are often at odds with each other as well when it comes to what they think this verse means.

Adam Clarke says in his commentary: “Yet they had a file - The Hebrew petsirah, from patsar, to rub hard, is translated very differently by the versions and by critics. Our translation may be as likely as any: they permitted them the use of files, (I believe the word means grindstone,) to restore the blunted edges of their tridents axes, and goads.”

John Gill sticks to the sense found in the King James Bible saying: “Those that would not go to the Philistines kept files by them to sharpen those several instruments with upon occasion... when the mouths, or edges, of the mattocks, coulter were dull or "blunt" and so needed sharpening.”

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown agree with the KJB reading as well - “Yet they had a file--as a kind of privilege, for the purpose of sharpening sundry smaller utensils of husbandry.”



Agreeing with the King James Bible translation of “YET THEY HAD A FILE for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads.” are the following Bible translations: the Bishops’ Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1560-1602, Webster’s 1833, the Revised Version 1881, the American Standard Version 1901, Rotherham’s Emphasized bible 1902, the Hebrew Names Version, the 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company version, the Judaica Press Tanach “And there was a file for the mattocks...”, Young’s ‘literal’, the World English Bible, the Bible in Basic English 1960, Lamsa’s 1936 translation of the Syriac, the 21st Century KJV, the 1998 Third Millenium Bible, the Spanish Reina Valera Gomez, the Portuguese Almeida, and the 1649 Italian Diodati.

It should be obvious that this is by no means an error in the King James Bible.

Will Kinney
  #2  
Old 07-10-2009, 08:42 AM
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Default Thanks Will

Thanks once again for yet another very helpful article, I am forever learning something new on this forum! I sincerely hope that one day you will decide to put together a complete commentary on the Bible. I would certainly be at the front of the queue to buy it no matter what the price!

God bless

PaulB
  #3  
Old 07-10-2009, 10:42 AM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default

Thanks Paul. No plans to write a book much less a Bible commentary. There is way too much I do not understand about the Bible. I do what I am passionate about and that is to show that the King James Bible is the only true and perfect words of God. If somebody else wanted to put together in booklet form the studies I do, that would be great. He can have all the money he might get from publishing it.

So far I have no inclination to put these things in book form.

God bless,
Will K
  #4  
Old 07-10-2009, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Kinney View Post
Thanks Paul. No plans to write a book much less a Bible commentary. There is way too much I do not understand about the Bible. I do what I am passionate about and that is to show that the King James Bible is the only true and perfect words of God. If somebody else wanted to put together in booklet form the studies I do, that would be great. He can have all the money he might get from publishing it.

So far I have no inclination to put these things in book form.

God bless,
Will K
Will, I was going to add my commentary and affirmation to this excellent sturdy, I got stuck in a puddle of some slime of the perslane and could not get out.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #5  
Old 07-11-2009, 05:41 AM
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Default Commentary

Hello Will – God bless you for your input into this forum and on the Internet in general. Please don’t take me wrongly when I comment on your posts as I am not attempting to flatter you or place you on a pedestal, but you have a gift that the majority of us are really benefiting from.

I have spent so many years encountering the James White’s of this world and his wannabe disciples, whilst on the other hand have found it very hard to come by the Will Kinney’s! The trouble is that the majority of Christendom and its enemies will not only give an ear to the arguments of the former party, but they will go out of their way to find them.

When I say that I hope that you will write a commentary I am (in my heart of hearts) crying out for an equipping of Christ’s precious little lambs who seek to know the truth, but are being mislead by glossy presentations of the so called “scholarly”.

I myself, was at one time fooled by their labelling tactics where they successfully build up a KJB straw man and then tear it down in a way that makes their own argument to be the most Christian in both spirit and logical. So when I urge you to put something together (or for someone else to do so), it is not with the aim of being your biggest fan (who is seeking to buy the tea shirt and own the video), but a plea for the truth to be made accessible to equip saints like me who are leaning from blessed brothers in Christ such as yourself.

There is so much out there Will (as you are more than aware of!) that is produced with the aim of brainwashing people into believing that there are no solid arguments to support the validity of the KJB. They will allow it to be recognised as one of many imperfect versions of the Bible but not as the Bible itself, and the arguments that you put forward (like Bibleprotector, Martin Shue, etc) are helping the remnant to fight the battle with their own trusted sword.

So whether it be an “article a day” or a compilation of them placed into one volume, your ministry on this forum is doing an immense work of good to those who are fighting the fight. I know when I am preparing sermons that I often think to myself “am I missing the mark here? Am I really accomplishing anything?” so however menial it may seem at the time when you may have your doubts I would like to encourage you to keep going because you are accomplishing much more than you may realise.

God bless

PaulB

PS, I like your humble approach to everything that you do and your willingness to let someone else earn money over your works. But I would go as far as to say that the articles that you put on this forum Will are priceless and helping people to see what God has always said. Every time you write from your heart you are strengthening and delivering every truth seeker from the confusion that the modern Babel is producing.

God bless again

PaulB
  #6  
Old 07-11-2009, 10:49 AM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default

Hi brother Paul. Thank you for the words of encouragement. I do appreciate them. I am very thankful for other Bible believers. It would be very hard to be all by yourself in this Battle for the Bible. But we can help one another out; learn from each other and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have school starting up in a couple of weeks again and will be very busy during the next 9 months. Teaching a bunch of kids, most of whom do not want to learn much of anything and dislike being there, is not an easy task and it is quite draining. However I enjoy if for the most part and it is better than having a job where my tired, old body has to lift heavy objects for a living.

God bless,

Will K
  #7  
Old 07-11-2009, 02:52 PM
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Default Hi Will

I am just the opposite - I lift heavy items all day long but travel in between each job. During that time I manage to listen to many mp3's including text to audio versions of your own works. You will be missed on the forum if the next 9 months are too demanding for you, but anyhow, have a nice time all the same.

God bless

PaulB
  #8  
Old 07-12-2009, 07:20 AM
Tmonk Tmonk is offline
 
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Default

You teach high school Spanish don't you Will?

Teachers these days have a daunting task. I remember my first year in college in Composition 101 we wrote papers in class and passed them to the student beside , sometimes behind, us for peer corrections. I was shocked that the people beside me could barely spell and had no grasp of a comma or sentence structure.

I guess "slow to anger" really applies in your job.
  #9  
Old 07-12-2009, 06:47 PM
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Thumbs down

Well I am still searching, but I did come up with this very interresting bit of trivia. I decided to do a search for a Hebrew word for Shekel, since it has been said no such word exists.

Well I found FIVE such refrences, none of which were giving me the same number??. So I decided! to check the one that gave strongs #694. Guess what?????.

Strongs number #694 = Arab pronounced ar-awb' : From 693; ambush; Arab; a place in Palestine.

That doesn't seem to me to have the slightest to do with Money!. I am now wondering just how much trust, you can even put into internet information. I quickly checked a few of the other four, and came away none the smarter, not one of them had a thing to do with a Shekel.
  #10  
Old 07-12-2009, 07:29 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default slow to anger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmonk View Post
You teach high school Spanish don't you Will?

Teachers these days have a daunting task. I remember my first year in college in Composition 101 we wrote papers in class and passed them to the student beside , sometimes behind, us for peer corrections. I was shocked that the people beside me could barely spell and had no grasp of a comma or sentence structure.

I guess "slow to anger" really applies in your job.
By the grace of God I'm a pretty slow to anger type of guy. But I do get pretty upset at the public school system. We have teachers who openly promote evolution in their classes as though it were a fact. But I and the other Christian teachers there are not allowed at all to bring up anything about God or the Creator and say anything about how utterly stupid the ridiculous theory of Evilution really is. I did it once and had several Christian kids agree with me, but one student was "offended" at my remarks and I got in tons of trouble over it. Her Dad was an ex seminarian who hates religion, is a lawyer and an avowed atheist now. So I ended up with a letter of reprimand in my file.

The whole system is rigged against God. But what else is new? I do thank God for the several other Christian teachers who are there laboring away every day, and we actually have quite a few Christian students too. But Boy, do we have to watch everything we say, while the atheists and evolutionists can just about say anything they want and get away with it.

It can be quite frustrating.

Because of Him,

Will K
 

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