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  #11  
Old 05-14-2009, 10:24 AM
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Mathew Ward Mathew Ward is offline
 
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Paul did teach discipleship 1 Thessalonians 2:3-13.

1. Spoke the Bible - Their Purpose (v3-6)
2. Gentle Leading - Their Progress (v7-8)
3. Living Examples - Their Pattern (v9-10)
4. Individual Attention - Their Provision (v11-12)
5. Taught the Word - Their Primer (v13)

A disciple is simply a "Student of Christ", in order for there to be a student there must also be a teacher or mentor. You could also describe it in terms of an apprentice.
  #12  
Old 05-14-2009, 10:44 AM
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Not every disciple of Jesus was/is a believer, but every believer ought to be a disciple of Jesus.
  #13  
Old 05-14-2009, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathew Ward View Post
Paul did teach discipleship 1 Thessalonians 2:3-13.

1. Spoke the Bible - Their Purpose (v3-6)
2. Gentle Leading - Their Progress (v7-8)
3. Living Examples - Their Pattern (v9-10)
4. Individual Attention - Their Provision (v11-12)
5. Taught the Word - Their Primer (v13)

A disciple is simply a "Student of Christ", in order for there to be a student there must also be a teacher or mentor. You could also describe it in terms of an apprentice.
I think you're missing what I'm saying. My original post said "The word disciple is used 226 times in the gospels yet never used in Paul's epistles". I didn't say Paul didn't teach discipleship. For instance Paul tells us;
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:2)
My point was that Paul's emphasis was different than that of Jesus'. Paul never tells us;
......if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth
up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go
and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have
treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:20-21)

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or
father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake,
shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
(Matthew 19:29)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come
after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26-27)
Jesus came as Israel's Messiah and his main emphasis was kingdom teaching, yet he knew the nation would reject him. He does mention the new birth in John 3. He does teach about the Holy Spirit in John 14-16. He tells them he's going to Jerusalem and will be killed and raised the third day, but they didn't understand. Jesus' disciples didn't understand the gospel message that we know that Paul presented in 1 Corinthians 15. We can see the gospel message in the Gospels, but they didn't because a lot of what Jesus said, again, was kingdom teaching. The reason I am laboring at this point is because folks like John MacArthur write books like "The Gospel According to Jesus" and try and force kingdom teaching into the gospel message that Paul taught and you wind up with Lordship salvation.

Yes Paul taught discipleship, but that wasn't his main emphasis (at least not like Jesus taught). Paul taught relationship. His emphasis was that everything has been accomplished by our Lord Jesus and because of our position in him we are forgiven, have the righteousness of Christ, are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit, are dead to sin, just to name a few truths. Paul wants us to know these facts that are already true of us and walk in light of these truths.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Colossians 1:17)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Ephesians 1:3-7)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (Romans 3:24)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: (1 Corinthians 1:2)
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
If you don't understand the difference between what Paul taught and what Jesus taught his Jewish disciples then you run the risk of:
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3)

By the way it's not a Paul versus Jesus thing because Paul tells us;
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)
  #14  
Old 05-15-2009, 06:46 AM
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Mathew Ward Mathew Ward is offline
 
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Quote:
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I think you're missing what I'm saying. My original post said "The word disciple is used 226 times in the gospels yet never used in Paul's epistles".
But the word disciple is used in conjunction with Paul throughout the book of Acts, from the churches he started.
  #15  
Old 05-15-2009, 06:51 AM
CKG CKG is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Mathew Ward View Post
But the word disciple is used in conjunction with Paul throughout the book of Acts, from the churches he started.
I think you're missing what I'm saying. My original post said "The word disciple is used 226 times in the gospels yet never used in Paul's epistles". I didn't say Paul didn't teach discipleship.

My point was that Paul's emphasis was different than that of Jesus'.
  #16  
Old 05-15-2009, 09:37 AM
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Mathew Ward Mathew Ward is offline
 
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My point was that Paul's emphasis was different than that of Jesus'.
I don't see a different emphasis from Jesus and Paul.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Both had a desire to see the Israeli people saved, both also turned to the gentiles as well. Both taught others how to be "Christlike" and very many things in common.
  #17  
Old 05-16-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathew Ward View Post
I don't see a different emphasis from Jesus and Paul.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Both had a desire to see the Israeli people saved, both also turned to the gentiles as well. Both taught others how to be "Christlike" and very many things in common.
The Old Testament foretold blessings coming to the Gentiles (Isaiah 11:10, Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 42:6 and others), but Jesus primarily came to the Jewish people.
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. ( Matthew 10:5-7)
Most of Jesus' earthly ministry was during the time of the Law. He primarily taught kingdom theology. Even after spending 40 days with his disciples after his resurrection their main concern was the kingdom promised to Israel.
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (Acts 1:3-6)
Paul did have a desire for the salvation of the Jews, but he also said;
And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:25-28)
Paul never told believers;
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live (Luke 10:25-28)

......if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth
up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:20-21)

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or
father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake,
shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
(Matthew 19:29)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26-27)
Jesus never told his disciples;
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, (Romans 6:11)

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:6)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
 

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