View Single Post
  #36  
Old 04-10-2009, 06:26 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Dr. Greg Estep's Daniel's 70 Weeks"

Aloha BornAgainBibleBeliever,

I intend for this to be my last Post in regards to Greg Estep and his Heresy on this Thread. I am going to put into "chronological order" what transpired, and that has caused so much concern and comments from me.

BornAgainBibleBeliever's Thread:
Post #1 - 03-24-2009
Quote:
I recently came across a truly amazing sermon set by Dr. Greg Estep, who is a KJO Dispensationalist,”

It covers the 70 weeks, end-times prophecy and the period of the tribulation with a rare viewpoint: That the 70'th week started already, and then got paused for the church age, to resume after the rapture and continue 6.38 years, instead of the commonly preached full 7 years. This seems to explain all the apostolic miracles, the cessation of the sign gifts, parts of the plan for Israel, and sheds light on more than a few false doctrines derived from falsely dividing the Word of Truth.
It also draws some correlations between the Jewish feasts, and the time of the rapture, among many other great expositions.


Frankly, I'm quite blown away with the sermons, and I've been listening to them over and over, and I'd like to get some more input on the things he presents from other solid Bible believers.”

Link to Sermon Audio

”I know its six hours to listen to them all, but I can pretty much guarantee that you won't regret it, and his delivery is much like Gipp's, so he's almost fun to listen to.
If there are errors, I'd like to see them pointed out, but if this guy is bang-on, then it could be of much benefit to share this incredible teaching. I'm not saying this teaching is perfect, but my discernment is giving me a bright green light on this one, and I'd like to know if its wrong before adopting it.”

”It will definately be food for thought for any workman who seeks to rightly divide.”
Your description of Greg Estep (a man who you don’t know) is both “POSITIVE” and “ENTHUSIASTIC”. And you made the “assumption” that he is a “solid Bible believer” - just like many of us on this Forum. This is the PROBLEM with endorsing or recommending a man, or “Bible” material (sermons, videos, books, etc.) from people you don’t know - someone out their might know something about them which will prove that they are, in fact, NOTsolid Bible believers” at all!

BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #3 - 03-25-2009
Quote:
Hi Samuel, thanks for venturing to listen to the sermon and giving me your thoughts.”
Quote:
Quote by Samuel:
“Its not new or rare, only because of today's pre-trib doctrine is it not taught much anymore, other than by a few.”
Perhaps I didn't explain it accurately, but it sounds like you are thinking of a mid-trib rapture, at the abomination of desolation, but I could be misreading you.”

What I understand Estep to be demonstrating is that something like ~220 days elapsed into the 70th week (Calvary to Acts) , then stopped when the gospel went to the Gentiles, and there are still 6.38 years to go, once the stopwatch starts again when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, also when the rapture hits.”

This would give ~2.88 years of tribulation left, then the abomination of desolation, then the 3.5 years of wrath, then the second coming.”
”As Estep points out, the Jews already made their covenant with the antichrist, or at least a type of him when they said
:”

Jhn
19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Just some thoughts on it, would like some more discussion. Not looking to argue with anyone or prove this point, just to find out if it makes sense to others too.
BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #5 - 03-25-2009
Quote:
Its quite a good listen, and the first hour doesn't do the whole thing justice.
At one point he sort of breaks down and chuckles that its hard to teach the whole Bible in one sermon. Its like he's trying to pour a lake through a handheld funnel!
BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #6 - 04-01-2009
Quote:
“Nobody else interested ?”

”I might be the only guy who listens to preaching on my computer as a complete replacement for TV, movies, music and video games, hence I listen to preaching pretty much everyday.”

This was the most revolutionary sermon I'd heard in a long time, thought others might enjoy too.”

”I just grabbed all 314 sermons by Dr. David Peacock, who is KJO, and seems really good.
Any comments on him?”
Please Notice: You first Posted on (Post #1) 03-24-2009. I Posted (Post #7) about one week later and only after you kept “gushing on” about:

a truly amazing sermon set by Dr. Greg Estep, who is a KJO Dispensationalist”; “I'm quite blown away with the sermons”; “his delivery is much like Gipp's, so he's almost fun to listen to.”; “this incredible teaching”; my discernment is giving me a bright green light on this one”; “Its quite a good listen”; “Its like he's trying to pour a lake through a handheld funnel!”; ”This was the most revolutionary sermon I'd heard in a long time, thought others might enjoy too.”

For one week I sat and read your comments about this man (Greg Estep) and his “revolutionary sermon”, etc., and your complimentary remarks – thinking: BABB has NO IDEA WHO he is recommending. You said: “I'd like to get some more input on the things he presents from other solid Bible believers.” You wanted input from “OTHER” SOLID BIBLE BELIEVERS”, which meant that you believed that Greg Estep IS a “Solid Bible Believer”. I could forbear no longer!

My reply (My Post #7) was extremely short (especially for me) and to the point. I didn’t “smear” Greg Estep, and I didn’t get into a scathing denunciation of him or his pernicious doctrine (NOT YET!) - I just directed any one who might be interested, to a 50 page “critique” of “DR.” Greg Estep’s “revolutionary” teaching on “The Doctrine of Submission”. My Post #7 follows:

George’s Post (I added some bold and underlines for emphasis – G.A.):
Post #7 - 04-01-2009
Quote:
Aloha brother,

“I'm not into recommending men, especially preachers that seem to have "new angle" on Bible doctrine. Ever since you mentioned Gregg Estepp, I have been biting my tongue (to the point where it is nearly bleeding.”

”There are some of us on this Forum that don't have a very high opinion of Gregg Estepp (and for very "sound Scriptural reasons"). If you want to know why, you can check out this Link:”

http://www.freewebs.com/thywordis/DO...20Comments.htm
It was only after your anemic reply to our “critique”, and the admission that you hadn’t read it all, that I began to be a bit more “hard-nosed” about Estep, and his pernicious doctrine.

BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Part of your reply:
Post #10 - 04-02-2009
Quote:
I started reading that article commenting his submission teaching et al, and I fully agree, according to the article, it looks bad.” {“It LOOKS BAD”? IT’S BLASPHEMOUS!}

Oh, if its true his salvation doctrine is way off, then I am ashamed to have even brought it up at all, for it reflects badly on me, and could lead people astray, however in the particular sermon I was refering to, I didn't hear anything about salvation nor submission, so I wasn't aware...yet. The focus was on Daniels' 70th.” {“If it’s true”? Are you calling into question our honesty and the veracity of what we transcribed”? “however”? – Even though the man may be a HERETICK, he still “might” have “sometruth?}

I'll continue to read that long article on his other teachings throughout my work day, and I'll post again once I'm done (I get interrupted by my job duties).
I am NOT advocating his submission doctrine, but I did note that saying a word isn't found in the Bible makes a doctrine false, is a weak argument. Trinity? Rapture? I'm not saying his doctrine is correct, just pointing out that's a weak thing to say. The other points in your article on the submission thing are valid.. got to read the rest
.”


I do agree he is a bit arrogant, but plenty of other, correct preachers are even more so (A certain favorite name probably pops into one's mind right about now)”
BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #14 - 04-02-2009{Bold added by G.A. for emphasis.}
Quote:
Hehe, Dear crusty old curmudgeon,

I've not taken any offence whatsoever. I did ask for comments on Peacock, but that was just a side-note.

I realize that I may be coming across as looking to men for revelation, and in a certain way I am, but only in that they show me whats in the Book that I havn't found before. My final authority is still and always will be God's pure and preserved Word. It is scriptural that we should take advantage of learned teachers, they are there for our benefit, but that we should be like the Bereans and search out their techings to see if they be true.
I continue to to read my Bible daily, and try to learn it as best I can, but expository teachers are valuable too.
I know, I know, I should just study more, the Holy Spirit can and will guide me, but then why do we go to church to listen to a preacher? To learn more on top of what God reveals to us personally.

As for Estep, He may have other wrong doctrines or not, but I am more curious about this teaching on the 70th week being paused, and about the rapture occuring on the Jewish feast of trumpets (no year or minute predicting, just times and seasons). Its this theory I'm interested in, not Estep. He looks a little creepy anyways [IMG]file:///G:/DOCUME%7E1/GEORGE%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image003.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///G:/DOCUME%7E1/GEORGE%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image004.gif[/IMG] But this particular theory might be right.
I've learned to chew the meat and spit out the bones as it were.

I will continue reading the article about submission etc. As I'm spot-reading it at work, I agree there could be some bent toward excessive pastoral authority, but some of the other comments seem like they might have been taken out of context, I dunno. I'll comment more on that once I've read it completely and thoroughly.
Don’t you notice how you will “agree” with something that I have said, and in the very next instance you throw in a big BUT or “However”? Whenever people do this, they “cancel” and make of “non-effect” everything they said before hand. “BUT” = on the contrary; except for; with reservations; etc. Which means (when you have used it) that you really don’tagree” with me at all, but are just trying to be polite, or whatever.

It would be far better to disagree with me (that’s not only your right, it is also your prerogative) than “agree” to something I have said, and then in the next breath “disannul” what you just said (your “agreeing”) by the use of “BUT” or “HOWEVER”, and throwing in your “exception” to what I just said. It’s all very confusing to simple minded people like myself, because I really can’t tell (for sure) whether you do “agree” or not.

My Post #15 (too long to duplicate here) followed your comments made in your Post #14. You will notice that I took some of the statements you made (and quoted them first) and then commented on them. That is, I didn’t deal in “generalities” or “innuendo”, I specifically dealt with your statements by making specific comments about them; NOT - “some of the other comments seem like they might have been taken out of context, I dunno”. Your statement is a “generality” – designed to cast doubt on the veracity of what we presented, without ever producing any “FACTS” to back up the innuendo. General statements about issues only gender doubt, and never prove a thing. Generalities”, innuendo, insinuation, and intimation cast aspersions on people or what they say or write, without actually making any direct charges against them. These kind of “tactics” are used by Humanists and Sophists when they engage in discussion or debate.

Today’s Politicians and modern day “preachers” are MASTERS in the use of these “tactics” or “devices”. I don’t deal in “generalities” or “innuendo” – I deal with specific issues and matters, and speak (or write) specifically to them. And that is why people (today) take offense at many of the things that I say, because I don’t “beat around the bush”.

Truth saying today is NOT popular, Political Correctness (PC) is! I refuse to be intimidated by those people (lost or saved) who “think” that it is “cruel” or “hard” to speak the truth. I have been accused by some people on the Forum of engaging in “diatribes”, “cruel denunciations”, “railing”, “vilifying”, and even “persecuting”. Their have been people here who have said that I am “heartless” and use “cruel words”, etc. – all because I am "BLUNT"; and I speak “PLAIN”; and refuse to engage in Political Correctness or guile.


BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #18 - 04-05-2009
Quote:
Preliminary comment, George: Show me one human teacher/preacher that actually has 100% truth that I can learn from without having to chew the meat and spit out the bones...
If something is a heresy, I will spit it out and won't condone it. For example, I don't believe in the gap theory, but am I then to throw out everything God gave brother Ruckman because he also teaches the gap? That would be a waste
!”
Are those Christians that believe and teach about “The Gap” - HERETICKS? Is brother Chette Nichols a “HERETICK” for believing in, and defending “The Gap”? Because brother Peter Ruckman believes in and teaches about “The Gap”, does that make him a “HERETICK”? EQUIVOCATION is a sign of either little or NO “DISCERNMENT” or a deliberate attempt to “blur the lines” between good & evil; between right & wrong; and between a “Faithfulman of God (who’s judgment about a scriptural issue is questioned by you & others) and a man who, clearly and beyond any shadow of doubt, is teaching HERESY.

There is no Scriptural basis for equating “The Gap” (a doctrine that has been debated by sincere Christians for well over 100 years – and I might add, still NOT SETTLED!) and the so-called “Doctrine of Submission”, which, if ANY genuine Bible believer were to examine in depth, is found to be one of the most pernicious and destructive HERESIES of all time! To “equate” the two doctrines is like comparing a full course meal to “PIG SLOP”!

WHY do Christians make these kinds of “judgments” today? Have you NO DISCERNMENT? There is a difference between a doctrine that is “debatable” and a doctrine that is a FULL BLOWN HERESY. The two are NOT THE SAME! And neither are these two men (Ruckman & Estep) THE SAME! The one man is a “Faithful” man of God (who at worst may be mistaken), and the other, is a man who “THINKS”, and “BELIEVES”, and “TEACHES” that he has the “right” and “authority” to REPLACE the Lord Jesus Christ in His own Church!

BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #18 - 04-05-2009 (continued)
Quote:
Once more, this thread really really isn't about Estep, but about the theory he advanced in that particular sermon. I only reference him, because I haven't heard anyone else say it before. If he has other doctrines, or teachings done before or after this that are incorrect (that I never heard yet), then I will reject them. But if the 70 weeks time line theory is correct, I'm not going to throw it out.”
Billy Graham used to preach some sound stuff (wayyyy back), but then he became a Romanist. Does that invalidate something truthful he said that a long time ago?”
Your “reasoning” above is flawed, simply because all genuine Bible believers “KNOW” that Billy Graham has apostatized – by his words and actions. You DON’T KNOW ANYTHING about Greg Estep (or the destructive effect his pernicious doctrine has had on Christians) other than one of his sermons “appealed” to your CURIOSITY, and you “THINK” that he “mightbe right about an issue of so little importance to genuine Bible believers that only two people took the time to address it. (And CKG’s opinion about Estep’s “THEORY”:Any attempts to fit the confirming of the covenant into John 19 is speculation and pretty wild speculation at that!”

BornAgainBibleBeliever's Post:
Post #27 - 04-09-2009
Quote:
Plus, I'm still a little dubious about George's assessment, it seems a bit over critical, and the context cannot be verified. One can vilify someone by taking snippets here and there. Not to say George is lying or misquoting, but the point is I never recommended him nor the submission tapes. I ONLY wanted to discuss the CONTENT of the 70 week time line theory.”
Your last Post (#27) is “CLASSIC”. My friend Ed Burch and I spent months transcribing these heretical tapes and crafting our response to them, and what do you have to say? “I'm still a little dubious about George's assessment”; and “the context cannot be verified”; and “One can vilify someone by taking snippets here and there”.

WHY DON’T YOU JUST COME OUT AND SAY WHAT YOU ARE “IMPLYING”? Your carefully crafted (PC) defense (in anticipation of my charge): “Not to say George is lying or misquoting”; BUT that is just exactly what you IMPLIED! Innuendo, insinuation, and intimation is what Sophists (University Professors, Politicians, and “preachers”, etc.) resort to – NOT genuine Bible believers!

Let’s take each of your “intimations”, one by one shall we?

#1.I'm still a little dubious about George's assessment”. In anticipation of such a charge – Ed Burch and I made up Three (3) different “papers” on Estep’s so-called “Doctrine of Submission”.
  • One “Critique” with ALL of our comments, which equals 52 type written pages.
  • One “Critique” with SOME of our comments, which equals 35 type written pages.
  • One “paper” with SELECTED QUOTES from Estep – WITHOUT any of our comments, which equals 9 type written pages.
If you are concerned about “George’s assessment” why not just read Estep’s “quotes” WITHOUT OUR COMMENTS – if you are so concerned that my comments may not be appropriate?

#2.the context cannot be verified”. If that doesn’t call into question – our honesty and integrity, then I don’t know what “innuendo” or “intimation” is when I see it! We spent months carefully and with all fidelity transcribing the exact words spoken by Greg Estep (about six hours of taped sermons or "lessons"). If you don’t want to believe that we were “circumspect” in our labors, there is really nothing I can do (except, since you have brought the subject up, I might take those tapes and put them on CD’s – just to shut the mouths of the “gainsayers”).

#3.One can vilify someone by taking snippets here and there”. Are you “accusing” me of “vilifying” Greg Estep? IF Ed Burch and I were honest in faithfully transcribing a good portion of Greg Estep’s Four Tape Series on the so-called “Doctrine of Submission”, then our “Critique” of his pernicious doctrine is both accurate and true – if NOT, Almighty God will judge us for our dishonesty and maliciousness. IF, on the other hand, we were “faithful” in our transcribing; and in our presentation; and in our comments; then we will be found “faithful” servants of God – warning the brethren about a “WOLF” in or midst. I will leave it up to those people who will take the time read ALL of our “Critique”, as to whether we have UNFAIRLY “misrepresented” what Estep said; or whether we took what he said “out of context”; or whether we “vilified” an innocent man and are found to be liars, railers, and false accusers.

You see, it’s so much easier to speak PLAINLY than to “cloakaccusations in Innuendo, insinuation, and intimation. When a man speaks BLUNTLY, it’s very hard for others to mistake WHAT he is saying. They may not “like” what he is saying, but there is no mistaking his “meaning”.

The other day brother Luke asked: “Where have all the real men gone”? There are a few of us left, but time (age); and Political Correctness (PC); and the pressure to “conform” to this world (HUMANISM); and the temptation to “compromise” (to get along) is taking its toll on old, crusty curmudgeons. There may come a day, when there may not be any of us left to point fingers at and accuse of being heartless, unloving, judgmental, and just plain "mean". I wonder WHO the nice, sweet, gentle and non-judgmental Christians will point their fingers at then? Hmmm?

The Bible is clear, as to what we are to do with HERETICS. There are NO IFSANDS – OR BUTS!

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

You have the Christian liberty to CHOOSE to IGNORE this Bible Command; you can continue look for NUGGETS from False Teachers and Hereticks (after all: “ISN’T ALL TRUTH, GOD’S TRUTH” – No matter WHO it comes from?); you have the freedom to “think” whatever you want to “think” about me (we still have some freedom left in America); but I have warned you (and others) about this man and his pernicious doctrine. It’s now up to you, as to what you do with this information. I have done my duty, and I am free of “the blood” of any man (or woman) on this Forum, as far as Greg Estep (or his “Doctrine of Submission”) is concerned.

This is NOT a “personal matter” with me – it’s a matter of “WHAT IS TRUTH”? The Lord Jesus Christ said: “Thy word is truth”. If it is the “TRUTH” (and I say that not doubting), then we ought to LOVE IT; DESIRE IT; STUDY IT; and OBEY IT; and leave men and their “traditions” and their “doctrines” for others to: “chew the meat and spit out the bones as it were.

If those things that I have presented here are mere "janglings" and of little or no importance, then all of the "speculation", "conjecture", "hypothesis", "suppositions" and "THEORIES" about Daniel's 70 weeks are just an "exercise in futility"; since a man's CURIOSITY about some aspect of prophecy doesn't begin to measure up to the importance of WHO we accept as BIBLE "teachers" and WHAT (the substance) they teach. [Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.]

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Job 22:22
Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.