[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by jerry

Great - maybe a bit more studying in the Word of God will show you where you are wrong. All the best.

You’re getting awful quiet there Jerry…let me up the ante! Originally, I told you I would immediately concede this debate if you would show just one case of an OT saint getting ‘saved’, justified or made righteous in accordance to Rom 10:9-10; in other words… looking to the cross. You didn’t. Tell you what; being the nice guy that I am, I’ll throw in Matthew, Mark & Luke along with the 39 books of the OT. Show me where the cross is being preached and received as such for salvation and again, I’ll immediately concede this debate. Let me be clear; I’m not asking to be shown where a prophet or king was being expected; these are a given; an actual attempt to make Christ king failed (Jn 6:14-15). Jerry, don’t you find it interesting that the two disciples the Lord appeared to on the way to Emmaus were sadden at the death of Jesus because they trusted it was He who was going to redeem Israel (Lk 24:21), as prophesied by Zacharias (Lk 1:68)? Hmmm… they must have had a different perception of redemption then of that from ours (Rom 3:24)?!

Now to the purpose of this post and that is to prove exactly the opposite of your view that ‘salvation’ ‘was not by the works of the law’.

“Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.” Post #15

Last post I demonstrated that righteousness ‘by faith’ was a biblical principle from the very beginning of the creation of man. I’m going to continue proving ‘by faith’ as relating to Israel’s righteousness under the Mosaic covenant. While the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12:1-3) covenanted a great nation and land, the Mosaic Covenant covenanted for righteousness (which includes forgiveness of sins) based on obedience, as so goes ‘by faith’. We will return to here latter.

Jerry…how can you deny the direct implication found in the following two verses regarding the righteousness of God via the law?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested…
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness…

Jerry, the verses following each of these, in their context, are only as relevant now as these were relevant then! Paul gives us a launching pad to further investigate this ‘righteousness of God’ relating to the law within his own testimony given in Phil 3:4-6:

Philip 3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Jerry…I’ll itemize Paul’s pedigree here for you:

5 Circumcised the eighth day
of the stock of Israel
of the tribe of Benjamin
an Hebrew of the Hebrews
as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church
touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless

Let’s zero in on that last point of Paul’s resume! Did you know that Paul was living ‘by faith’ while same time persecuting the church! Before thinking to critical of that statement, consider the following:

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Where do you suppose this concept of the ‘righteousness which is in the law’ comes from Jerry?

The law served numerous purposes:
1. The oracles/commandments of the LORD to and for the Jew (Ac 7:38; Rom 2:1-2)
2. A ruler for sin (Rom 3:20)
3. A spokesman of things to come (Mt 11:13; Lk 24:44)
4. A schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Gal 3:24)
And last, but not least…Jerry!
5. The law was the means of the righteousness of God which I’ll now prove…

A good and simple definition of righteousness is found in its root, ‘right’. Righteousness is simply being right or doing right as opposed to being wrong or doing wrong. The righteousness of God was conveyed through three avenues in the OT, each testified unequivocally by works:

1st Avenue – The LORD Himself

Judges 5:11 They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the LORD, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the LORD go down to the gates.
1 Samuel 12:7 Now therefore stand still, that I may reason with you before the LORD of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which he did to you and to your fathers.
Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Psalms 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Psalms 36:10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.
Psalms 40:8-10 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. 10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Psalms 119:137 Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments.

2nd Avenue – The Law (Moral, Civil & Ceremonial)

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Deuteronomy 33:19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand.
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psalms 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Psalms 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psalms 119:105-106 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
Psalms 119:123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
Psalms 119:138-144 138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful. 139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. 140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. 141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts. 142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. 143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights. 144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word for all thy commandments are righteousness.

3rd Avenue – The actions of the righteous; under the OT the distinction between the righteous and the wicked was their works based on the LORD’s commandments.

Psalms 15:1-2 1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? 2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
Psalms 18:20-26 20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. 21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. 22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me. 23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity. 24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. 25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
Psalms 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psalms 106:30-31 30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
Proverbs 11:5-6 5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. 6 The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Jerry…just a short story before continuing along this avenue. Shortly after becoming a Christian I witnessed to a Mennonite farmer and the issue of eternal security came up. Not accepting my viewpoint he sent me in to debate his wife who immediately went to several passages in Ezekiel to prove one could fall ‘from grace’; the four chapters oftened used to prove such are: 4; 14; 18 & 33. These chapters show the result of the righteous turning away from their righteousness to wickedness and the wicked turning away from their wickedness to righteousness, all the while the nation cries foul play on God's behalf...14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Jerry…Israel’s response to the LORD’s offer in establishing the Mosaic Covenant was Exodus 19:8 “And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.” And Jerry…the purpose of this law is very clear…

Deut 6:23-25 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers (Abrahamic Covenant). 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Jerry…did ya notice how clearly the ‘faith of God’ (Rom 3:1-3) is presented in that last passage?! …for our good always that he might preserve us alive as it is at this day.

How about another short story Jerry? Back in the 80’s I sat in a SS class in which a new pastor was also sitting while being instructed by the adult SS teacher. We were in Romans and came across 2:13:

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I’ll never forget the reaction of this young man…I swear he never saw this passage before and though he was a staunch believer in the KJV, this verse simply didn’t fit into his theology on OT justification. Already having an understanding of 2Tim 2:15, I tried to put my 2 cents in, but he’d have nothing to do with it! Jerry…isn’t it a coincidence that this passage is part of Paul’s argument leading up to Roman’s 4 concerning Abraham & David, the passage you took completely out of context in trying to prove OT justification without works! Jerry, did you ever read this verse before? Perhaps you’ve also noticed that I haven’t made distinction between the words ‘justification’ and ‘righteousness’ in these posts. Reason being is I see that they’re interrelated. Add to Rom 2:13, the following:

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Hmmmm…didn’t see this one coming; did ya?! Ouch!

Consider this…though referred to as the lively oracles of God (Ac 7:38), the one thing the law couldn’t do was provide life:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (Paul speaking in present tense)

Jerry, this is where man came into play and the following verse further helps define ‘by faith’:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Faith here speaks of one’s faithfulness, as the ‘faith of God’ speaks of God’s faithfulness which is a characteristic of the righteousness of God (Ps 40:10)! Jerry… the absolute only way the law had life was when man lived it and this is exactly what is expressed by Moses (Lev 18;5) and quoted by Paul when contrasting two extreme means in which God provided righteousness to mankind…then and now.

Romans 10:5-6 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith…(next post)

The marvels of the KJV shine through again when recognizing why the ‘his’ is dropped in context when Paul references Hab 2:4 in Galanians:

Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by ___ faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Again Paul speaking in present tense)

Jerry…I’ll let you muse over that one for a while; I need to finish this post.

Why did Israel fail under law, the very means in which God provided righteousness? The answer is contained in the following two verses:

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Israel’s sins and rebellion became so putrefying that even their sacrifices became an abomination to God and their appointed feasts He hated (Isa 1:1-20). What was God’s resolve for Judah…cease to do evil and learn to do well, which are ingredients of ‘by faith’! Israel then reminds me of Catholicism…eat the wafer/body and slurp the cup/blood and live like Hades (oops; wrong version) during the week. Or like Protestantism, get baptized, join the church, attend Sundays (or at least Easter & Christmas) and live same as before mention. Professing Christianity today is equivalent to the Jews religion at the time of Christ (Gal 1:13-14).

Deduction: In the context of Romans 3:30 (Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision ‘by faith’, and uncircumcision ‘through faith’.), the provision of the righteousness of God to that Jew under law was via works/obedience! You’re wrong.

Jerry, in my next post (unless I have to deal with some objection of yours) I will turn the corner and deal with God’s current provision of righteousness by way of contrast.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15