[George]

Brother George
"Thank you for that very instructive post. I read 5 of the links you posted at the bottom. I enjoyed the way you made a clear distinction between "believe" and "faith". That was excellent instruction that I will remember.

Now you are going to think I am picking on you, but in the 5th post at bottom you did something you criticized me for. "

“I hope you understand I pointed that out in a lighthearted way.”

”But actually, I have a question for you. Do we have faith in the scriptures? I mean, we can actually hold the scriptures in our hands and see them with our eyes, so then according to the strict definition of faith, then can we only believe the scriptures and not have faith?

I hope I worded that right.”

Aloha brother Winman,

First off, I took no offense at your comments. I believe that they are sincere, thoughtful, and appropriate. (and "challenging"!} If I understand your point in your Post #15 I think that you are saying that there is a contradiction between what I wrote before and what I wrote to you, and on its face it certainly appears that way. Upon re-reading my words (and if I had it to do over) I would eliminate the words - "by faith" {poor choice of words}.

It might appear that there is a contradiction, but I believe the following comments may clarify WHY Thomas' situation was different (i.e. before the time that God turned to the Gentiles) than those saints that have been saved since God turned to the Gentiles.

The main reason that the Lord Jesus Christ criticized Thomas for being "faithless" is because Thomas was in the "transition period", {that period of time which began after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; and the time when God rejected the Nation of Israel and turned to the Gentiles} wherein God was still dealing exclusively with the Jews and hadn't yet revealed the Gospel of the Grace of God (Paul's Gospel), or the fact that the Gentiles were part of the “promise” to Abraham. And since Christ was still physically present, the individual "faith" of a Jewish believer was still yet in "operation". I do not believe that the "faith of Christ" became available until God began to turn to the Gentiles. {There is also this - Thomas was “faithless” (without “faith”) because he refused to BELIEVE.}

This "transition period" is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Holy Scriptures. But if a person takes the time to read the early Chapters of Acts [Chapters 1-7] carefully, it will soon become apparent that Peter and the other apostles are preaching exclusively to Israel (Israelites & proselytes) and the message is one of repentance for killing their Messiah and King – NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God (i.e. Paul’s Gospel).

The following is an extremely short overview of this “transition period”:

Acts Chapter 1 through Chapter 7 = the period of time where the Holy Spirit appeals to the whole nation of Israel (through the apostles preaching) to repent of killing their Messiah and King (Acts Chapter 7 ends with the stoning {martyrdom} of Steven).

Acts Chapter 8 = God begins to call the Gentiles - the Samaritans first {part Jewish} and then a Jewish Proselyte {the Ethiopian Eunuch}.

Acts Chapter 9 = the conversion and call of "Saul" - later called "Paul" (who became the Apostle to the Gentiles).

Acts Chapters 10-11 = God cutting the nation of Israel off {because of their unbelief and their rejection of the Apostles "REPORT"}; and (through the preaching of the Apostle Peter – Acts 10) His turning to the Gentiles, i.e. the beginning of the inclusion of the Gentiles, (not just Samaritans {part Jews} or Gentile proselytes to Judaism), within the household of God by BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ

Acts Chapter 12 = the beginning of the “shift” of the center of Christianity (from Jerusalem to Antioch) “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” [Acts 11:26]; and a “shift” in emphasis from ministry of the Apostle Peter (who had “apostleship of the circumcision” – Galatians 2:7-8) - to the ministry of the Apostle Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles - Romans 11:13; Galatians 2:7-8; 1Timothy 2:7; 2Timothy 1:11); and with it, a “shift” away from the Jews to the Gentiles.

Soon after the death of Stephen, God called the Apostle Paul and revealed several "mysteries" to him, one of which was that the Gentiles could (by believing the Gospel) become fellow heirs of the promise of God made to Abraham. All of the benefits of the New Covenant became available for all those who BELIEVED the Gospel (Paul's Gospel), that is all those who RECEIVED Christ and who became the sons of God (i.e. born again).

And now on to the second part of your Post:

”But actually, I have a question for you. Do we have faith in the scriptures? I mean, we can actually hold the scriptures in our hands and see them with our eyes, so then according to the strict definition of faith, then can we only believe the scriptures and not have faith?

I hope I worded that right.”

Tough question! I am going to try to answer your questions, but you must understand that what you ask is quite complicated and my answer may not satisfy you.

“Do we have faith in the scriptures?” Yes, I believe we do. The question arises – Who’s “faith”? If you don’t mind, I will use my own experience to demonstrate: From 1968 through to 1988 (or thereabouts) I believed and had “faith” (my own “faith”) that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, infallible, Holy word of God. That “faith” was based on 12,000 to 15,000 hours of study about the issue of “Which Bible”, but it was my own faith.

Sometime around 1988 (I cannot be sure exactly when, because I was not aware of it until sometime later) I came to the realization that even with all of the study that I had done, it was impossible for me to “prove” the King James Bible is God’s Holy word, because even if we had all of the “Originals” in our possession (which we have NONE) the “scholars” would still be arguing over the “MEANING” of those words! I came to the realization that God has set this issue (Which Bible?) up based on “BELIEF” and “FAITH” – exactly as He has set up the issue of salvation!

In regards to the “which Bible” issue, for my own “faith”, I needed all of that “study” - to rely on and bolster that “faith”. But when I came to the realization that no matter how much more I might study the issue (or how much more time I might spend in that study) that in the end I still would not be able to “prove” (to the doubters) that the King James Bible is God’s Holy word I came around to the BELIEF that God has surely PRESERVED His words exactly as He promised, and that those words can be found in the King James Bible: perfect, Holy, infallible, inspired and without error; and it doesn’t matter how much time we study the issue – at some point we are just going to have to BELIEVE God for what He promised and RECEIVE His “faith” for it. My own “faith” might waver, but His “faith” is sure, and that is what I am now relying on – NOT all of the study or hours of study.

The fact that we can hold the Holy Scriptures (in One Book) in our hands does not nullify the need to BELIEVE in/on those Scriptures. Any more than the fact that when the Lord Jesus Christ was on the earth (and the people could see Him and hear Him) nullified the need for them to BELIEVE in/on Him. Many people (sadly many “Christians”) can hold the Scriptures in their hands (and read them, or hear them) and still not believe. Just as many people saw and heard the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry and still refused to believe Him.

The Book that we hold in our hands is just “paper and ink” to the unbeliever, like any other book. For those of us who genuinely BELIEVE the words within that Book, they are far more than just “paper and ink” – they are LIFE! That takes BELIEF; that takes “FAITH”, and you can’t “see” that. Our BELIEF is in the words that can be found in The Book – NOT THE PAPER AND INK (that are seen).

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When we “read” the words of God in the Holy Bible, we are actually “hearing” the words of God that proceed out of His mouth; they are NOT just the words of man written on paper with ink, they are, instead, the Holy words “that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”. When a person “sees” the words written in the Holy Bible, they don’t necessarily BELIEVE them, just because they can be seen, if they did, then everyone who picks up the Bible and reads it would believe. No, it’s more than just seeing The Book (the paper & ink); it’s “HEARING” the words that counts:

Job 12:11 Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is an operation that cannot be “seen”, which takes place in the heart of an individual when they first BELIEVE the Gospel.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I hope that I have answered your questions satisfactorily. I shall try to answer some of your other questions soon.