[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by jerry

There are various OT passages that refer to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Genesis 3:15; Psalm 22; 16; Isaiah 53.

I never debated how much the OT saint understood or didn't understand some of these things - you don't have to understand something fully to accept it by faith. The OT taught the Gospel - looked forward to Christ fulfilling it, and the OT saints were saved by looking towards that Messiah who would die in their place.

Jerry…I’ll never forget the response of my roommates to a question I asked them in the mid-70’s while attending Tennessee Temple University. We were passing in front of the library headed back to our dorm returning from attending a church service. I inquired to how did an OT saint get ‘saved’? Their response was that theologians were still debating that issue! I was majoring in theology in the college division…they were in seminary.

Why am I not surprised that you did not come up with a single case demonstrating an OT saint getting ‘saved’ via Rom 10:9-10, and I see you’re still insisting that OT saints looked to the cross for salvation. I thought you would have at least gave demonstration of what ‘by faith’ salvation looked like in the OT, but you didn’t (or couldn’t) even do that!

Jerry…your treatment of Romans 4, in previous post #15 that triggered my response, is identical to that of the NIV.

AV1611.com is an excellent website showing abundance evidence from various perspectives and sources why we should accept the KJV as the Word of God; now I’m going to prove doctrine that you can’t get from other translations and from those who claim to believe it, but keep running to the Greek to make it say what they want to, or from those who fail to rightly divide it.

The book of Romans is a book of distinctions contrasting what was doctrinally true before the mystery of Godliness and after; 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The following are contrasts that Paul makes in his letter to the Romans, all being made for a case Paul is proving in chapter 4 in citing Abraham and David, all in which I am laying the ground work for in future posts:

The gospel of God according to prophecy – Rom 1:1-2
The gospel of Paul according to mystery – Rom 16:25

Faith of God – Rom 3:3
Faith of Christ – Rom 3:22

The righteousness of God with the law – Rom 2:13; 3:21; 10:5
The righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ – Rom 3:22; 10:4

Law of works – Rom 2:13; 3:27
Law of faith – Rom 3:27

God of the Jews – Rom 3:29
God of the Gentiles also – Rom 3:29

Justification by faith – Rom 3:30
Justification through faith – Rom 3:30

A remnant of Israel then – Rom 11:1-4
An election of Israel now of grace w/out works – Rom 11:5-6

As Paul seeks to make these distinctions as seen here in the KJV the NIV being the perversion that it is seeks to destroy a most important doctrinal distinction in justification between Jew and Gentile.

Romans 3:30 (KJV) 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 (NIV) 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Jerry…this is outright heresy! In the context of these chapters, I’ll prove the distinction between ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’ and that ‘through faith’ is not the same faith as ‘by faith’ so indicated in the NIV. In fact, there are those who preach a ‘by faith’ salvation today which is a false gospel and of course I believe there are those today who preach a ‘through faith’ gospel, but call it by the wrong name. I would tend to give you the benefit of doubt and put you into the later category. In a future post, continuing on this same subject, I’ll again compare more passages in the NIV to the KJV relating directly to this topic.

The remainder of this post is dedicated to the investigation of the justifying of the circumcision ‘by faith’ in establishing what exactly justification ‘by faith’ looked like in the OT. We will be considering the ‘faith of God’, the means of God’s righteousness prior to the incarnation and man’s responsibility to each.

Under the OT the Jew was obligated to God because unto them were committed the oracles of God (Rom 3:1-3). Israel committed to this covenant relationship via Moses and here were the terms:

Exodus 19:5-8 (KJV) 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

There were two sides to the equation of this covenant…Israel’s obedience and God’s faithfulness. It is to this equation that Paul speaks to:

Romans 3:1-3 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

This faith (faithfulness) of God that an OT saint was to rely on is so clearly demonstrated in the life of Sara.

Hebrews 11:11 (KJV) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Jerry…though we’re dealing with the faith of God in relation to the nation of Israel in Romans, the ‘by faith’ principal existed from day one of creation. God created man, placed him in the garden with instruction and then expected simple obedience. Well, we all know the end of that story…1 Samuel 15:23 (KJV) For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. Okay, different story, but same disobedience got them thrown out of the garden and we’re paying the price today!

Simply put, from the creation of man and continuing through God’s dealings with the patriarchs and nation of Israel, God expected to be believed and obeyed. The Jewish Christian book of Hebrews picks up on this marvelous theme of ‘by faith’ in reflection back on the fathers and OT faithful:

Hebrews 11
4 By faith Abel offered
5 By faith Enoch pleased
7 By faith Noah prepared
8 By faith Abraham obeyed
9 By faith he sojourned
17 By faith Abraham offered
20 By faith Isaac blessed
21 By faith Jacob blessed
22 By faith Joseph made mention
23 By faith Moses was hid
24 By faith Moses refused
27 By faith he forsook
29 By faith they passed
30 By faith the walls were compassed
31 By faith the harlot Rahab had received

(In a future post I’ll also demonstrate the marvels of the KJV translators in how deliberate they were in translating and inserting ‘by’ & ‘through’ in this chapter. Compare verse 11 with the above and see if you can tell a distinction? Then for the fun of it, check out ‘by’ & ‘through’ in same chapter in a NIV.)

First mentions in the Bible usually set precedence and the record of Cain and Abel is an exact demonstration of righteousness ‘by faith’.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

The issue at hand isn’t a belief in the existence of God for even Cain conversed with God (Gen 4:9-16), as did his father Adam. The issue is what is justification ‘by faith’? There are three essential components that make up righteousness ‘by faith’ as seen here in these two passages regarding Cain and Abel:

1. The first of three components found in ‘by faith’ is that of believing what God has said or established. Without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22) is a principle God laid down from the very fall of man seen in the preparation of coats for Adam and Eve, by God himself. When Abel responded ‘by faith’ it first meant he believed God concerning this blood principal.

2. The second component of ‘by faith’ is obeying and Abel carried through with what he believed by offering a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, a blood offering (Gen 4:3-5; Job 1:5).

3. The third component of ‘by faith’ is seen in the ‘faith of God’, or God’s trustworthiness to hold up His side of the deal and counted Abel righteous, God testifying of his gifts.

Now Jerry, I can sense you throwing a real fit on this point, but the fact is the means in which man obtained the righteousness of God’s was in what God commanded and expected to be carried out in obedience. Abel obtained witness that he was righteous in offering unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain...God testifying of Abel’s gifts! Cain’s own works were evil and his brother's works righteous. Jerry…you cannot separate the three components of ‘by faith’ listed above in this scenario or else ‘by faith’ ceases to be ‘by faith’! No Jerry…we’re not debating which came first, the chicken or the egg. Simply put, these elements cannot be separated! I’ll demonstrate latter in another post what happens when they get separated. Solomon sums it up nicely from a ‘by faith’ OT viewpoint:

Ecc 12:13-14 (KJV) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Consider Noah… Genesis 7:1 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Why Jerry? Because Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and walked with God (Gen 6:8-9). Jerry…this is exactly opposite of Eph 2:8-9 (KJV); For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. Let me tell you something about yours and mine salvation; neither of us Jerry found grace in God’s eyes before we ‘got saved’ because we were just men and perfect in our generation and walked with God!

Rahab is an example of ‘by faith’ extending beyond Israel to a Gentile. Rahab simply believed the spies, obeyed their command, trusted and was rewarded when she and her family was rescued before the walls of Jericho came down. Rahad ended up a resident in Israel (Jos 6:25). Her attitude towards Israel’s God and treatment of the spies is recorded in Jos 2. … 11 for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. 12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house…

Jerry…exactly what aspect of the mystery of Godliness (1Tim 3:16) do you suppose Rahab figured out in recognizing the LORD…Israel’s God or from what the spies may have shared with her? Think the spies took her down the Roman’s road before being let down from the window? Speaking of Gentiles…how much of Jonah’s preaching the word of the LORD to Nineveh included the mystery of Godliness that caused Nineveh to repent (Jonah 3:1-10)? Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Before dealing with Abraham and David, in the context of Roman’s 4, I need one more post to prove just the opposite of your claim that OT saints weren’t ‘saved’ by the works of the law:

“Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.” Post #15

Stvvv1611
2Timothy 2:15