Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry
The OT didn't look forward to the death of Christ? Genesis 3 tells a different story - so does Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, other passages.
This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible:
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.
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This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible?
Not so fast Jerry…the issue isn’t what is written in the OT, the issue is what did the OT saints understand and how were they made righteous before God. Even the prophets struggled with issues relating to the sufferings and glory of Christ:
1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching
what, or
what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the
sufferings of Christ, and the
glory that should follow.
You completely misrepresented Chette777’s post and then ignored his argument, part based on the following passage:
1 Cor. 1:23-24 But we preach
Christ crucified, unto the
Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor. 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
After ignoring Chett’s argument, you then listed Roman’s 4:1-25 followed by…
“Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.”
Jerry…not only did you take Paul’s argument of Romans 4 completely out of context, your deduction is one based on the NIV and not the KJV! In this post I’ll deal with what OT prophets and saints did not understand and next post I’ll deal with Paul’s argument in Romans 4 based on the KJV… not the NIV that supports yours.
To even suggest that OT saints both understood and looked to the cross for salvation is absurd. Case in point; consider the twelve who ministered with the Lord Jesus Christ for some 3 years before the crucifixion.
Luke 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the
twelve, and said unto
them, Behold,
we go up to Jerusalem,
and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and
put him to death: and the
third day he shall rise again.
Before moving on to the twelve’s response in v34, notice how deliberately the Lord makes reference to the prophets regarding events to occur concerning the Son of man that are the very components of what Paul refers to as the gospel he received and preached to the Corinthians; Christ’ death, burial and resurrection (1Co 15:1-4)!
Now, let’s look at their response in v34.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Jerry, here’s a 3 point outline you’d think would be the response of unbelievers!
I.
And they understood none of these things
II.
and this saying was hid from them
III.
neither knew they the things which were spoken
Ignorance of these specifics is also evident in Peter’s rebuke of the Lord and the Lord's of Peter:
Matthew 16:21-23 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and
be killed, and
be raised again the third day. 22
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Then to top it off Jerry, leaving no doubt behind, the disciples remained in unbelief even after the resurrection!
Mark 16:10-14 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her,
believed not. 12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it unto the residue:
neither believed they them. 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Jerry…to believe that OT saints looked to the cross for salvation is simply unbelievable when considering the above scripture regarding 12 men who ministered with Christ such as they did!
Here is a fact that all non-dispensationalists and proponents of only one gospel don’t have an answer for, and that is… all the while these elements we call the gospel, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were hid, the twelve were still proclaiming a gospel (Lk 9:1-6)!
Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns,
preaching the gospel, and healing every where. (We’ll save this for another thread
)
Jerry…I’ll make a deal with you to immediately concede this debate if you will show just one case of an OT saint getting ‘saved’, justified or made righteous in accordance to Rom 10:9-10.
Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (need to change to
‘shall raise’) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Fair? I’m giving you 39 books of the bible to show just one example. Let me be very clear, I’m not asking you to show types of Christ or prophecy;
these are a given. The prophets diligently searched the what and what manner of the sufferings and glory of Christ after prophesying them; the princes of this world didn’t get it right and crucified Him; events prophesied was hid from the apostles who didn’t get it till the very end and Paul relied on the scriptures as his defense of the sufferings and glory of Christ. Simply show where an OT saint was led down the Roman’s road for salvation. The way OT salvation is often portrayed today one would be led to believe that King David ran a SS chariot route toting the wordless book.
If you can’t come up with an instance…well then…hmmm…maybe you owe chette777 an apology
In Paul’s final comments at the end of Romans (Rom 16:25-26), he linked together three things; his gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world, and the support of such mystery by the scriptures of the prophets. Wonder what his gospel and this mystery could be?
Next post I’ll begin to defend Paul’s Roman’s 4 arguments proving the KJV over the NIV.
2 Timothy 2:15