Good post, George! :) That is an awesome testimony!

I've heard of a number of couples who were so close that they could tell what each other was thinking. Then I met one fellow who had gone a step farther; his wife told him what to think! :eek:

Praise the Lord for a marriage like that! amen.

I too am married to a Filipina lady, and I am Caucasian. Granted we have not been married for the great length of time you have Bro. George, but so far we are on par with the kind of marriage you describe, and it's a wonderful blessing. Having those priorities right is paramount, God 1st, each other 2nd. Thankfully we were both Christians when we met and our love for God together has only been increasing since that time.

I'm happy to speculate and for others to do so, and I believe thinking outside the square is healthy for the Bible student, just as long as it's done with sound reasoning and comparing scripture with scripture.

There are many issues that are 'gray' and that we will not agree on, but let us respect one anothers opinions/beliefs even if they are based upon speculation.

"Speculation" about silent places in the Scriptures is to be done very cautiously and a set of doctrines or beliefs should never be based on those speculations. I believe that a subtle attempt has been made in this thread to introduce the idea that somehow those of black African decent are inferior based on the curse of Cainaan. It has been tried elsewhere. That is an example of the danger of speculation.

1) Africans are descended from Cush, Canaan's brother, not Canaan himself, so saying that Canaan's curse was blackness is ridiculous. As far as we know, the Canaanites were white-skinned!

2) God never cursed anyone in Genesis 9. He blessed Noah and told him to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth: NOAH did the cursing. Noah did not have the power to cause one person or line of descendants to be "inferior" to another. God may just have honored Noah's curse, but He didn't change the DNA of those people just because.

3) From that, there are two explanations for the black-colored skin of the African race (and Australian Aboriginals, not to mention Micronesians!): either, like had been taught for years, Cain's curse was blackness, and his dark-skinned line was continued through Ham's line because he married a Cainite wife; or the skin change is completely due to the natural affects of melanin and the sun's rays because of the geographical location.

Also note that Ishmael was half Hamite because of Abraham's relationship with Hagar, an Egyptian; therefore the Middle Eastern people are more Hamite than Shemite (excluding Iran: they are Aryan/Caucasian)!

That's what it boils down to: God never blessed slavery, He simply allowed it. I don't think God looked kindly upon American slavery (though, truth be told, only 1% of slaves in the New World even came to the US!!) because under the New Covenant, God largely did away with the things that people used to justify slavery. All humans are equal in Christ; I don't believe that we are created equal (socially-speaking, not genetics), but we all have equal opportunity in this life to make something of ourselves.

Has anyone heard the theory that Ham fornicated with his father's wife and then boasted to his brothers...

Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Mentioned here and addressed here.

I've been away for a while....while it is true that we "see through a glass darkly" in many areas, I also believe faith and common sense go a long way.....when you say, "nice try, but"....I'll just say, I'm not the only one who believes this was an act of adultery....I was taught this by a man who knows more about the Bible than you and I put together....as far as wording, you aren't reading what you wrote--in other words, what is Noah's nakedness....read this again, please.....The Bible cleary states:

Leviticus 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Now, the Bible says Ham saw his fathers nakedness....I'll ask a simple question, in lieu of Leviticus 18:8 what is "his fathers nakedness"????:rolleyes::)

God bless....Scott

In my opinion Brother Scott, the scripture is clearly stating “thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s wife.”

“The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness” (Leviticus 18:8).

As far as the statement, “…it is thy father's nakedness.” We should first consider what "it" refers to. I believe "it" refers to "the nakedness of thy father's wife." You might consider these verses as an explanation for the phrase, "...it is thy father's nakedness.”

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).

“For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh” (Ephesians 5:31).

Regarding Ham...

“And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him” (Genesis 9:21-24).

Here’s my answer, Kiwi Christian. Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:28).

Let’s say, God forbid, last week I looked upon “Gorgeous Gertrude” to lust after her in my heart. What had I DONE UNTO HER? I looked, I lusted, and I committed adultery in my heart. I did not touch her with anything but my eyes. That is what I did and I am guilty!

What did Ham do? “And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father….”

Rather than speculate exactly "how" Noah knew Ham "...saw the nakedness of his father," or read into the words "...and knew what his younger son had done unto him," we should simply believe what the Bible says. “And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father….” and Noah "...knew what his younger son had done unto him."

Also notice that Ham didn't uncover Noah; he was already naked, so the "uncover thy father's nakedness" stuff about sleeping with Noah's wife is somewhat baseless from that passage.

So, because someone has a beautiful interracial marriage and shares about it, that makes it right? Why are we taking personal stories and elevating them higher than God's Word? Now, if you have a BIBLICAL argument as to why you think interracial marriage is ok, I don't mind hearing those, but personal stories are irrelevant when discussing matters of right and wrong.

aussiemama, God established the bounds of the nations' habitations. If you want to apply that to us today, then you're disobeying God by leaving Australia. I don't think God feels that way about the situation; have a little grace.

You'll find over and over again that God forbade interracial marriages for religious reasons. Solomon was corrupted because of foreign wives, and he was the wisest man that ever lived! It was their religion that was the problem, not their skin color or their land of origin. THAT was the principle: it's carried forward by Paul forbidding Christians to be unequally yoked.

When God looks at humans, He sees Jew, Gentile, and Christian (Church). If you're born again, there is NO difference between us in Christ. Obviously you're a woman, I'm a man, I have white skin, and some have other colored skin, but to God that is irrelevant. Under the law of Christ, we are not under bondage to that separation of cultures if we choose to involve ourselves. Yes, it will complicate marriage. Yes, it might cause problems. But no, that does not forbid two Christians from different sides of the world from marrying.

If you have a legitimate, New Testament Church argument against "interracial" marriage, then by all means bring it forward. Otherwise, you're simply arguing a non-issue with no true Biblical foundation.

And that's putting it lightly...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

As he stated he was answering *YOUR* question (With the example that they manage just fine) after you shared *YOUR* personal story:

If you want the Biblical argument re-read the thread.

Have you ever seen a Blue Jay kiss a Robin?

Blue Jays and Robins are different kinds. God made creatures so that every kind he made brings forth offspring after its kind (Gen 1:11,12,21,24,25, Gen 6:20, etc., etc.) He made Robins and he made Blue Jays as different kinds of birds, but for man there is only one kind - he didn't make "white" man and "black" man in the Garden of Eden. He made "man". He made "Adam and Eve", not "Robert and Susie, and Tyrone and Shaniqua".

Amen, that's right!

But anywho, I noticed Ruckman talks about this subject a bit in his commentary on Genesis. I'm only just getting into it so I'm not sure exactly what his stance is, but I'm sure he won't be afraid to share it, lol. :p

Peace and Love,
Stephen the Shemite :D

I doubt you'll like the truth Dr Ruckman sheds on the matter since you don't believe that interracial marriage is wrong. Glad someone stands for truth rather than trying to be politically correct.

Umm... so it's truth just because Dr. Ruckman says it?

We have a number of birds in our backyard that my wife and I observe from our back porch. The cardinals are frequent visitors as are the black-capped chickadees and house finches. One thing I have never observed is any of them kissing any of the others, regardless of species! I have observed my cat licking my dog's face and vice-versa. :eek:

:D :D :D

Excellent points!

Also, I disagree with Doc's stance on this. It is one of perhaps the three things I disagree with him on, but nevertheless I do disagree. There is really no Scriptural basis for forbidding "interracial" marriage today under the Gospel of Grace.

(I took a good bit of his Genesis class too...I know where he's coming from and I still disagree ;) )

I do not believe there is anything in this dispensation that could prohibit interratial marriage (Paul doesn't ever mention it when he speaks of men taking wives). Nor do I think ANYONE could make the case against such a marriage (I'm sure people try, and I'm willing to bet they fail to rightly divide and resort to using the OT). As far as I see it, we are all descendents of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, along with their wives. The only benefits one could attribute to genetic purity, in my opinion, are completely carnal. Those benefits would only appeal to ones sense of self worth, and ultimately would service ones pride.

... the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:16 KJV)

At the end of the day we all will shed this corrupt flesh and put on the incorruptable and be like Jesus. And I'll tell you one thing I know for sure, Lord Jesus is engaged to marry every single member of His Church, and He doesn't care if any of us are black, white, asian, greek or jew. We are ALL precious in His sight!

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Romans 12:5 KJV)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 KJV)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Ephesians 1:10 KJV)

So let us put aside this petty little debate. It makes us look bad.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

LOL, and he didn't make Adam and Steve either...
it occurs to me that while the Christians were debating this kind of thing, the world pulled the rug out from under them and redefined marriage to suit its own standards. As the Prop 8 issue shows, Bible believers and all other traditionalists are about to be portrayed as the worst haters on the planet like never before. It's no longer about race, it's about gender:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787

No, there are things I don't agree with him on either. But he provides so much Biblical evidence for it. I think most are scared to look at what he presents in case they have to change their mind to line up with Scripture.

And what qualifies you to judge people as "scared" to "look" at this (even though most of us already have)? Here you have blurted your opinion without offering any Scriptural support, and when pressed to provide evidence you merely defer to a man and accuse us of being "scared."

The following are some of Aussie mama’s quotes in regards to “interracial marriage”:

I asked before and you never answered, so I say again: Please give us the CHAPTERS & VERSES? If what you say: “All throughout the Bible there is warnings not to marry different races.” is true, you should be able to give us SOME verses (at least) to support your “belief”! (Or the “belief” of whomever you are following)

I don’t want to know: “why our family believes interracial marriage to be wrong.” I have asked for CHAPTERS & VERSES in support of your “belief”. Your personal “opinion” or your family’s “opinion” are of no interest to genuine Bible believers, we want Scriptural proof for your personal “beliefs”!

Once again, I don’t care what your many black friends “believe” - you claimed: “All throughout the Bible there is warnings not to marry different races.” And yet all you have given us is your “opinion” or other people’s opinions or “beliefs”. You have yet to give us any Scriptures in support of your “racist opinions”!

You were the one who wondered and were puzzled about: “I don't know how interracial couples manage” and I answered with my personal testimony (Post #40), to which you niggling replied: “So, because someone has a beautiful interracial marriage and shares about it, that makes it right? Why are we taking personal stories and elevating them higher than God's Word? Now, if you have a BIBLICAL argument as to why you think interracial marriage is ok, I don't mind hearing those, but personal stories are irrelevant when discussing matters of right and wrong.” You were the one who wondered how interracial couples “manage”, and when I answered you with my testimony you take a “cheapshot” at my answer – my, my, you not only have a lot to learn about “rightly dividing the word of God”; you have a whole lot to learn about Christian charity! :confused: I try real hard on this Forum (and elsewhere) not to get “personal” with ad homonym attacks on people, but in your case I am going to make an exception: If you are so petty as to attack my testimony (in answer to your puzzlement) - I pity your husband! :p

You keep claiming that the Bible teaches against "interracial marriage", but you keep quoting other people! :( When I want to know the “Truth” about a Scriptural matter, I do not go to brother Ruckman to shed light on a Bible issue, I search the Holy Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. As much as I appreciate brother Peter Ruckman, he is a very poor “substitute” for the Holy Spirit!

Your Posts are quite instructive as to why women, especially women who are new born babes in Christ, should not be trying to “instruct” those of us Bible believing Christians (men) who have been studying the Bible longer than you have been living. And, if a woman is married, she should be learning from her husband; or older Christian women; or elders (men) in a church. However, in this day and age, it is practically impossible for the “emancipated” and “liberated” Western woman (saved or unsaved) who is guided by her personal beliefs and/or "feelings", to keep from "expressing herself" - so I expect that you will continue to give us your “opinions” or the “opinions” of those you “respect” in the place of Scripture.

Henceforth, those of us who are genuine Bible believers will continue to ignore your “opinions”, (and the “opinions” of your friends, relatives, and those whom you admire) and just chalk the whole thing up to the fact that, when it comes to rightly dividing the word of God (and obeying God’s words), most Western women (American, Canadian, European, and Australian) will simply choose to ignore every Scriptural teaching and injunction concerning the conduct of Christian women, and will instead insist on relying on their own “feelings” and “opinions” and following their feminist convictions and beliefs.

A review of your Posts on this subject clearly demonstrates that you are “parroting” other people’s opinions, beliefs, and convictions, but you, yourself, are unable to defend your “personal beliefs” or demonstrate (from the Scriptures) that what you believe is true, and so you end up dismissing anything anyone else offers as being “irrelevant” without offering any proof (from the Holy Bible) that you know what you are talking about.

In this day and age (Dispensation) God has divided up the people of the world into three (3) categories: The JEWS, the GENTILES, and the CHURCH (born again children of God) 1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:. Any other division is not only in "error", it is heresy (false doctrine), and as such should be rejected immediately and refuted whenever it is brought up! :eek:

I skimmed through this thread, and if some one has already beaten me to it, I'm sorry. The only Scripture that deals with interracial marriage is here:

Note Edomites are descended from Shem and Egyptians are from Ham, so we see the patter for marriage is culture rather than race. Scripture is blind to Darwinian racism. Anyone who has been in the land long enough for cultural differences to be understood by both families can marry regardless of race, with the two exceptions that came about by incest.