Truth in Love
 

I see a lot of Baptists that speak the truth, but sometimes it's not in love. They tell the truth, but they have a hateful and proud spirit.

Ephesians 4:15
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" KJV

Let me ask you guys a honest question. If someone got in your face and started screaming at you, would you see the love of Christ in that? I know I wouldn't. It's good to show people their sin, but when you're completely rude about it, you're out of place. Before you start yelling at someone about their sin, take a look in the mirror. You're a good for nothing filthy rag!

Isaiah 64:6
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." KJV

When we come to the realization that we're all bad, we'll get a humble spirit and tell people the truth in love. Everyone deals with different sins. For a teenager, sexual sins, such as lustful thoughts tend to come up. For some women and even men, gossip is a problem sometimes. See someone might be struggling with a sin that don't even effect you and you might be struggling with a sin that don't even effect them. We're all different and we all need to pray for each other. Some people grow up in lost families and they're raised in sin and obviously it's going to be harder for them to change than it would be for someone that was raised in a good Christian family.

As Christians we need to deal with lost people and babes in Christ with love, not with a hateful and proud attitude. Pray for them and show them scripture after scripture. Don't yell at them like an idiot. It is possible to stand for what you believe in and still be respectable to other people.

Tons of lost people avoid Christian now days because of bad experiences. They look at these Christians that have a hateful spirit and think, "wow, I don't want to be like that." As Christians we need to be a light to the lost and act like Christians. We want the lost to look at us and think, "wow, I want what they have."

Titus 3:3
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another." KJV

Maybe this wasn't much, but I pray that something I said or some of the verses I quoted will bless someone.

God Bless

Cody,you do bring up some good points. But I don't understand why you single out Baptists. This can be said of any Christian group.
But along these same lines lets remember what Jesus said in Mt.7:3
3: " And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,and considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
This is a part of the Sermon on the Mount, which is, in my opinion, the heart and sole of true Christianity.

Denny

Denny,

Well Cody is a Baptist just like I am. We are always very good about giving out the truth, however sometimes we miss the love part. You are correct that all Christians can and are sometimes guilty of doing this.

Cody,

This is a very good post. Thanks for making it. I need to read that often and keep it fresh in my mind.



Atlas

My Bible college instructor insists that while we try to teach sound doctrine, we ought not to forget that it is taught and should be taught in the context of charity. But I do lose a lot of charity when we don't speak in the same "tongue" (I mean, "doctrine") :)

Thanks, too, Cody!

I'm just curious; do you feel that there's any difference in the way people speak the truth in person and the way they do it on forums such as this?

It seems I need to try to be a lot more careful how I choose my words on this forum because people don't know me and can't judge my attitude. Even in person my odd sense of humor is hard to know how to take sometimes. I'm sure I'm not the only one as I can read someone else's post and think they're exemplifying a Christian attitude and someone else will think they're being hateful, or vice versa.

On the other hand maybe it is easier to pounce on people you don't know and who don't you on the internet. I hope that's not the case as it would say something about their true Christian (or otherwise) character.

In any case I think we do need to be slow both to give offense and to take offense.

I originally posted this on my Baptist website. I'm Baptist myself, so I just wanted to clear that I wasn't trying to bash Baptists. :p The message was directed towards a Baptist crowd originally.

God Bless

I agree.

It is very difficult , as Jeff says, to sometimes accurately gauge the tone of what is being said in this medium of communication.

Something that would be heard and understood as a moderately toned, but direct statement when the spoken word was actually heard can come across as rude when read in this format.

This problem can be compounded when the writer in naturally forthrite and direct in speech, and tends towards sarcasm in humour. Thats me all over, but most Australians are like this and I know that this can make me /us sound much more rude to American ears than is intended.

But lets not lose sight of the fact that Jesus didnt just prance around the country side trying his best to make friends with everyone. When required, he was very critical of people when correcting them, he really unloaded on the scribes and Pharisees in Math. chap 23, for example.

Sometimes people need to be corrected and insructed in a vigorous ( but loving :D ) manner.

Fundy

Cody,
It sounds to me that you are referring to street preachers more than "Baptists" as a denomination. If this is so, why not come out with it?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've been preaching the truth in love on the streets for several years now. I've seen and heard reactions similiar to what you posted more than once, all coming from born-again Christians that have a problem preaching on the street.

There is nothing wrong with street preaching - but there is sometimes something wrong with the way the truth is presented.

Not saying this is how you (or anyone here) does this - just making a general observation:

Condemning people is not the way - saying you are all going to Hell is a half-truth (the whole truth is, they are going to Hell if they reject the Saviour) - showing them their sin and the need for the Saviour is what will get them saved, not alienating them (ie. let the truth offend them, if they refuse to repent, rather than turn them away because you are being offensive).

Brother, I belong to an Independent Baptist Church that has a jail ministry and street ministry. Trust me, I'm not against street preaching. I encourage people to street preach and witness, but I was just saying that we need to preach in love and actually have the motive to get people saved.

God Bless you for street preaching. We need more men like you.

At least once I was actually accused of having an Australian sense of humor. I was only there a couple of weeks, but I must be a fast learner :).

Hi Jeff,

Our Pastor is an American, and we get along extemely well together. He has taught me so much about the Bible...he is a tremendous man of God. In return I have taught him how to insult someone in such a way that the other person just knows that you like him. Probably not a fair exchange, but besides taking him hunting with me, its all I had to offer.

Fundy

"As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death,
So is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, and saith, Am not I in sport?"
Proverbs 26:18-19

There goes all my "April Fools Day" plans :(.

Paladin, you need to understand something that Jeff has already shown an appreciation of. That being that different cultures have different customs.

Generally,In Australia, when a person that you consider to be a friend stops insulting you, wether it be to highlight how bald you are, how fat you look, how your shirt makes you look like Liberace ( is that how you spell his name?, you know, the queer piano player), or to even question wether your parent were ever married, you know that there are problems with your friendship.

Your tone of voice and body language is a big factor wether or not you recieve a friendly jibe in return, or a punch in the nose.

This gets back to my original point that email communication is a much less forgiving form of communication that face to face interaction.

Fundy;)

It is similar here in America, just to a less degree. We toilet paper people's house, Saran-wrap their cars to trees, etc.
Somehow, I have a hard time believing that questioning your friend's biological legitemacy done "in love", is not sin.

I doubt that no one ever takes offense to these insults in Australia.

And remember, cultural sin is still sin.

I believe this is dealing with a man who intends to harm or cheat another, and then pretends that it was all in fun when he is found out.

Are jokes automatically sinful? Few jokes are actually true stories, so couldn't you say they are deceptive? Most (at least in Christian circles) are intended to amuse and not to harm.

It seems to me that some of the happiest marriages I've seen are among spouses that are able to give and take jokes with each other. They're generally not really deceived.

Brother, think not that I am without a sense of humor. We crack jokes with each other all the time, but when it actually turns to insults, I always quote that verse, and all who are involved in it are ashamed and don't ask questions.

You must be a real fun guy to be around, Paladin, someone tells a joke or says something that YOU do not approve of and you hit them between the eyes with a misapplied Bible verse! It must be wonderful to have a representative of the joke police around when it comes time to deal out the shame when things get out of hand.

For your information, throwing toilet paper over peoples houses and wrapping plastic around cars is considered vandalism here in Australia, as I am sure it is in the States.

I dont care what you find hard to believe insofar as the method of interaction between people in Australia. You are obviously totally ignorant of the fact that other cultures interract differently to your own.

That you do not approve is of no consequence.

fundy

So show me how that verse is misapplied, or more accurately, answer me this:

Can you question someone's legitimacy and expect that person to not take offense?

Paladin, you seem intent on turning this into an argument...I am not interested.

To answer the first part of your post, please refer to Jeff's post (#18) which I feel answers the question of the misapplication.

In answer to the second part of your post....yes. For your understanding, I will expand on that and explain a little more fully.

If you look in any dictionary and you will find the following ( or similar)

bastard
3 entries found.

bastard[1,noun]bastard[2,adjective]bastard wing

Main Entry: 1bas·tard
Pronunciation: \ˈbas-tərd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to OldFrisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind
Date: 14th century
1: an illegitimate child
2: something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3 a: an offensive or disagreeable person —used as a generalized term of abuse b: man, fellow
— bas·tard·ly adjective

Now, as I said in an earlier post, the tone of voice, body language and time and place of use of this word ( insult) determines the response you can expect. For example upon meeting a friend you can say "G'day you fat ugly bastard" and expect a simliar friendly type of insult in return.
Winding down the window of your car and greeting the traffic cop in this manner is not a good idea....unless he is one of your friends.

This is an extreme example and is not intended to suggest that all Australians go around insulting each other to this degree..but many do, quite happily.

The fact remains that friendly jibes and insults are an accepted way of communicating affection and acceptance in this country. I'm sorry if you cannot accept or understand this.

While sin is rampant in Australia, your ignorance of methods used in friendly communication within ANY culture, not just mine, do not make them sinful in and of themselves.

fundy

Your response #20 seems that it is you who wishes to debate.

You call me ignorant, but you assume that I am without a sense of humor, and that I think jokes are bad. That is ignorant. You don't know me.

Jokes =/ insults, and i never said anything like it.

I'm struggling to remember, did Paul ever tell us to uplift each other by telling us to degrade men made in the image of God?

It seems that the men that I grew up around, served in the army with, hunt with and serve the Lord with today are a little more robust in their sensitivities than you are, Paladin.

You think differently to me, have a different sense of humour to me and know nothing of the culture that I come from.Thats OK, as I said, that is of no consequence to me. You are a Christain, that all that really matters to me.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

fundy

Interesting, if you believe that there is nothing wrong with degrading someone made in the image of God, so be it.

However, excellent scripture quotations to end an argument.

You are right Paladin,as you said, I dont know you, but I now know a little more about you than when we first started this discussion.

I made the assumption that I was talking to a man of similar age to myself. A man who, due to his life experiences should be able to take on board, in a mature way, the explanations given to him of the customs and habits of people who live in a country different to his own.

After looking up some of your other posts and learning that you are only 17 years of age and still at school, I am now of a better understanding as to your inability and unwillingness to try and understand these explanations, and as such apologise for being a little rough with you in some instances.

My advice to you is that you should not take the attitude that you have displayed here to a face to face discussion with a man nearly 3 times your age. You do not yet have the experience nor the maturity to criticise or judge ANYTHING in the way that you have in this thread. Give an opinion , by all means, ask questions and ask for explanations...but do not judge that which you do not understand.;)

Lev 19:32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.


Fundy

Are you sure that you have reached this conclusion because you are mature and understand the ways of the world, or are you unwilling to go against the culture you live in?

We insult each other in America, also, it is common for friends to call each other "gay", or anything else that now refers to one's homosexuality, and we are not supposed to take offense, because it is all done in friendliness.

James thought it was important to write a chapter of an epistle on this matter, James 3.

"8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. "

Paladin,You are stuck in your non understanding of the responses already given you on this issue.

As you get older you will understand more readily that which is confusing now.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


FUNDY

I have to keep that in mind. I'm in the Army and I work with people from all kinds of different walks of life, and I heard from another pastor in TX, that one thing to do to win more people is to be friendlier. One thing that characterized the life of Jesus in dealing with sinners is that he was friendly. He had a reputation of being friends with publicans and sinners. He had that reputation because he spent time with them and was friendly to them. Another thing he pointed out is that Paul was gentle with the Thessalonians, and they were dear to him, and he imparted his very soul to them ( 1 Thess.2:7-8) and he loved them more with time ( 2 Cor 12:15). The Bible doesn't have to be used as a weapon, which it is a hammer (Jer 23:29) and a sword (Heb 4:12) It is also honey(Ps 19:10) , bread(Matt 4:4) , apples(Prov 25:11),milk(1 Pet 2:2) and meat(Heb 5: 12-14).

You have yet to answer my question:

Are you okay with insulting a man, made in the image of God, and questioning his legitimacy only because a culture accepts it?